Is Swine Hallal
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I would like you to address your inconsistent arguments, before I decide to respond to your repeated questions.
At a later date.
roll Right. This is the same guy who wants us to accept HIS argument full of inconsistencies NOW.
Right now, we have much more pertinent and pressing issues to deal with.
Right NOW we have YOUR pertinent and pressing inconsistency issues to deal with as that's what your argument is BASED on.
Answer the following posts or simply concede that you cannot defend your assertion that lahma khinzerin means the flesh of pigs.
Answer the refutations posted to YOU time and time again OR simply concede that you cannot defend your assertion that lahma khinzerin is not the flesh of pigs.
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SC,
LOL! Yup, here we go again, rant, rave, bluff, then duck, cut and run. You don't have anything, SC and you know it. What's more you've lost this debate, because you can no longer field a defense for you misunsderstanding of lahma khinzerin. You will not answer those posts for the same reason reason that you wouldn't answer the 15 questions I asked you to, because to do so, would further expose your error. D
You have not practiced honesty in this debate. Those who refuse to practice honesty only continue to mislead themselves for certain and others maybe.
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Peace Nadia,
A small but pertinent point Blood transfusion is never given for the heck of it, or as a daily routine. It is always given in a state of emergency, because of severe anemia that is life threatening. So it would come under "forced out of need", according to 2173, therefore not being haram.
2173 He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Regards,
Tanveer
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PB,
Yes, what is BOLD is, Allah did make BLOOD a part of an animal restricted for us that is created BAD, it's NOT dependent on entering any state. Address this point. How do you explain it?!?
It is clear that we are talking about dietary restrictions is it NOT? What food you EAT? That is why the sentence is included in the above that is underlined and bolded, it means by nature bad/haram to EAT as it is NOT dependent on entering any state. I'm sorry if this sentence confused you.
Whether you eat blood or blood or take it directly into the blood stream via transfusion, the end result is the same....blood is still in the blood stream. I want to see you refute that.
Is this another example of shooting yourself in the foot? Are you saying that we should NOT have blood transfusions because in reality we are EATING BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS? Are blood transfusions DONE IN TIMES OF NECESSITY? Or whenever YOU feel like it? roll
LOL! Yup, here we go again, rant and rave, then duck, cut and run. You don't have anything, SC and you know it. What's more you've lost this debate, because you can no longer field a defense for you misunsderstanding of lahma khinzerin. You will not answer those posts for the same reason reason that you wouldn't answer the 15 questions I asked you to, because to do so, would further expose your error.
You have honest practiced honesty in this debate. Those who refuse to practice honesty only continue to mislead themselves for certain and others maybe.
And here we have another example of PB's periodic morale boosting events. The reader can easily discern for themselves the list of questions and refutations that have been evaded by PB. It is truly an impressive array. Why don't you address your glaring INCONSISTENCY now that you have had your rants off your chest?
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Peace Tanveer,
We posted at the same time, I think the same...
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Peace Platinum,
Thank you for your comments. It is obvious that 6145 has NO CHRONOLOGY whatsoever.
Please read all the posts under this thread and it will become obvious to you, if it not already is, that me and Nadia have refuted ALL of PB's points multiple times. He has been eluding and evading ALL the questions put forth to him multiple times by me and Nadia, and has refused to answer them despite multiple, repeated requests, because that would expose his flawed and faulty logic and his erroneous understanding and position. That is a clear indication of disrespect, discourteousness, and dishonesty and proves the untenability of his arguments.
Look forward to hearing more from you in this forum,
Regards,
Tanveer
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SC,
I'm still waiting for your response to the following. What's the matter...pig got your tongue again? Please address the issue, thanks.
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Posted Sat Sep 03, 2005 550 pm
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Posted Sat Sep 03, 2005 928 pm
If the claw don't fit...you must acquit. lol
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PB,
I'm still waiting for your response to the following. What's the matter...pig got your tongue again? Please address the issue, thanks.
Har de har har...take a course in humour while you are responding to YOUR glaring INCONSISTENCIES that I asked YOU to address BEFORE you asked me jack.
Posted Fri Sep 02, 2005 319 pm
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Peace Platinum,
Thank you for your comments. It is obvious that 6145 has NO CHRONOLOGY whatsoever.
Please read all the posts under this thread and it will become obvious to you, if it not already is, that me and Nadia have refuted ALL of PB's points multiple times. He has been eluding and evading ALL the questions put forth to him multiple times by me and Nadia, and has refused to answer them despite multiple, repeated requests, because that would expose his flawed and faulty logic and his erroneous understanding and position. That is a clear indication of disrespect, discourteousness, and dishonesty and proves the untenability of his arguments.
Look forward to hearing more from you in this forum,
Regards,
Tanveer
6146 And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.
Oh, so when Allah says..."made" in ayat 6146, He wasn't referring to something which He had prior to Al-Quran, imposed on the the Jews for their transgression, is this your position? So, is it also your position that, the Jews, in addition to not being allowed to eat what is listed in ayats 2173 and 53, they cannot eat animals with claws and the fat of oxen and sheep as well? Is this your's, SC's, and Platinum's position?
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It is obvious that 6145 has NO CHRONOLOGY whatsoever.
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PB,
I'm still waiting for your response to the following. What's the matter...pig got your tongue again? Please address the issue, thanks.
Har de har har...take a course in humour while you are responding to YOUR glaring INCONSISTENCIES that I asked YOU to address BEFORE you asked me jack.
Posted Fri Sep 02, 2005 319 pm
LOL Rant, rave, bluff, then duck, cut and run. This your m.o.; you're finished, Savage. I let you get away with not answering those 15 questions, but not this time. Your refusal to answer just establishes that you cannot defend your assertion and, rather than simply admit that, you prefer to change the subject, bluff, stall, deflect, sashay around, duck, run, rant, rave, etc. etc. etc. You can't learn anything behaving like that. Get honest and answer post haste.
If the claw don't fit...you must acquit. lol
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PEACE, DANISH,
You've made it quite clear why khinzerin isn't the animal pig. Really clear and coherent post.
I would like your analysis of the following
Ayats 55, 6146, and 16118, make it obvious why khinzerin cannot mean the animal pig.
Ayat 6146 makes clear that the ONLY animals, either in their entirety or some part, which was made haram to Jews to eat, were the class of animals with claws and the fat of oxen and sheep. This was not done because the foods were fasiqun/rijisun by nature, but because it was a punishment. Ayat 16118 makes it clear that, the things mentioned to the Messenger ( and us) as being made haram for the Jews, specifically to eat, prior to the revelation Al-Quran, are mentioned in ayat 6146. With this in mind then, based on Al-Quran only and alone, it is clear that the Jews were not forbidden to eat swine either as a whole or any particular part. Given the aforementioned, the pig was never haram for the Jews, hence, per ayat 55, their food must be halal for us, otherwise, we run into contradicts all over the place.
Let me know what you think.
Peace.
If the claw don't fit...you must acquit.
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Peace upon everyone,
I agree with tanveermd that there si no chronology in 6145.
So, is it also your position that, the Jews, in addition to not being allowed to eat what is listed in ayats 2173 and 53, they cannot eat animals with claws and the fat of oxen and sheep as well? Is this your's, SC's, and Platinum's position?
The Jews had additional restrictions on them as per 6146, due to their punishment, which were later rescinded by Allah. Currently, as per 55
"your food is lawful to them"
those restrictions are not on Jews, and the only restrictions of food on them are as per 6145, and those particular restrictions were always on them.
If what priest says is true, that 6145 is valid only after revelation of Koran, and that before that verse was revealed, the 4 categories of haram food mentioned in it were halal for Jews, then according to the same mistaken logic, many other things in Koran would be allowed before revelation of Koran, that are forbidden. For example
6153 Say "Come let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
6154 "And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity; and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear, and if you speak then be just even if against a relative; and regarding the pledges made to God, you shall observe them. This He has enjoined you that you may remember."Above two verses contain many forbidden things. Does it mean that those things were forbidden only after revelation of Koran and before that, all those things were halal/allowed ?
According to priest's mistaken logic, it was halal to set up someone with Allah, be unkind to parents, kill unborn children, come near lewdness, kill souls without just reason, come near orphan's money, be dishonest in measure and weight, bear false testimony, and not observe pledges made to Allah, before revelation of Koran. That is absurd.
Best wishes to everyone and may Allah guide all of us,
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Peace all,
Meat in scientific terms is muscle. It could be smooth muscle or skeletal musle or cardiac muscle, but they are all muscle and hence included in meat. I would recommend you to open up a text book on Histology and verify that.
Having said that, walls of intestines are full of smooth muscle and thus meat includes intestines. Liver and kidneys are RICHLY supplied with blood vessels (including capillaries). Walls of blood vessels are full of smooth muscle, so liver and kidneys do contain a LARGE portion of meat, and it is almost impossible to separate the meat from the small non-meat portion of liver and kidneys, for the practical purposes of eating.
So lahma khinzeerin includes ALL muscle of pig, be it smooth muscle, skeletal muscle, or cardiac muscle.
Lahma, in scientic terms, means flesh
Main Entry FLESH the soft parts of the body of an animal and especially of a vertebrate; especially the parts composed chiefly of skeletal muscle as distinguished from visceral structures, bone, and integuments a fleshy plant part used as food the fleshy part of a fruit.
Main Entry VISCERAL/VISCUS an internal organ of the body; especially one (as the heart, liver, or intestine) located in the great cavity of the trunk proper.
Hmmm...lahma/flesh, doesn't necessarily have to pertain to meat, but can pertain to plants, vegetables, and fruits as well. According to the above definitions, viscera, is NOT flesh, hence, the liver, the intestines and kidneys, along with bone and fat, are all halal.
According to your logic, the products the bones, fat, and hooves of the pig are halal to eat. Is this your position? For example
If you've ever eaten in a cafeteria, chances are good that your dessert options included Jell-O. There are hundreds of different desserts that use Jell-O to create everything from your basic institutional-style gelatin square to ornate designs that incorporate varied Jell-O flavors, fruit, and whipped toppings. Jell-O consists of four basic ingredients
gelatin
water
sugar or artificial sweetener and artificial flavors
food coloringThe gelatin in Jell-O is what lets you transform it into all sorts of different shapes. What exactly is gelatin? Gelatin is just a processed version of a structural protein called collagen that is found in many animals, including humans. Collagen actually makes up almost a third of all the protein in the human body. It is a big, fibrous molecule that makes skin, bones, and tendons both strong and somewhat elastic. As you get older, your body makes less collagen, and individual collagen fibers become crosslinked with each other. You might experience this as stiff joints (from less flexible tendons) or wrinkles (from loss of skin elasticity).
The gelatin you eat in Jell-O comes from the collagen in cow or pig bones, hooves, and connective tissues. To make gelatin, manufacturers grind up these various parts and pre-treat them with either a strong acid or a strong base to break down cellular structures and release proteins like collagen. After pre-treatment, the resulting mixture is boiled. During this process, the large collagen protein ends up being partially broken down, and the resulting product is called gelatin. The gelatin is easily extracted because it forms a layer on the surface of the boiling mixture.
Gelatin is a common ingredient in foods because it is so versatile. It can be used as a gelling agent (as in Jell-O), as a thickener, an emulsifier, and a stabilizer. You'll find it in a variety of foods, from yogurt to chewing gum. Here is a list of some other foods that commonly contain gelatin
gummy bears
sour cream
cream cheese
cake icing and frosting
marshmallows
soups, sauces and gravies
canned chicken
corned beef -
Peace Asad Ali,
If what priest says is true, that 6145 is valid only after revelation of Koran, and that before that verse was revealed, the 4 categories of haram food mentioned in it were halal for Jews, then according to the same mistaken logic, many other things in Koran would be allowed before revelation of Koran, that are forbidden. For example
6153 Say "Come let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
6154 "And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity; and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear, and if you speak then be just even if against a relative; and regarding the pledges made to God, you shall observe them. This He has enjoined you that you may remember."Above two verses contain many forbidden things. Does it mean that those things were forbidden only after revelation of Koran and before that, all those things were halal/allowed ?
According to priest's mistaken logic, it was halal to set up someone with Allah, be unkind to parents, kill unborn children, come near lewdness, kill souls without just reason, come near orphan's money, be dishonest in measure and weight, bear false testimony, and not observe pledges made to Allah, before revelation of Koran. That is absurd.
EXCELLENT POINT.
With your permission, I would like to include your question to PB in my 9 questions to him that have gone unanswered, and that would make it an even 10 questions !
Regards,
Tanveer
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EXCELLENT POINT.
Regards,
Tanveer
LOL! What excellent point? Ayats 55 and 6146, are talking about food. I'm discussing halal and haram food nothing else.
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Peace upon everyone,
I agree with tanveermd that there si no chronology in 6145.
So, is it also your position that, the Jews, in addition to not being allowed to eat what is listed in ayats 2173 and 53, they cannot eat animals with claws and the fat of oxen and sheep as well? Is this your's, SC's, and Platinum's position?
The Jews had additional restrictions on them as per 6146, due to their punishment, which were later rescinded by Allah. Currently, as per 55
"your food is lawful to them"
those restrictions are not on Jews, and the only restrictions of food on them are as per 6145, and those particular restrictions were always on them.,
Thanks for making my point.
55 This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them...
6146 And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.
I'm not saying there is a chronology in ayat 6146, I'm saying that there is a chronology, in that, what the Jews were forbidden in ayat 6146 precedes the revealing of Al-Quran. The point I'm making about 6146 is that, the pig, being a non-clawed animal, could not, by definiton of ayat 6146, have been haram for the Jews. The only way pigs would have been haram for them, would be if there were pigs with claws. Do you know of such a creature? I know some here, no doubt, have seen pigs with wings, but none have seen pigs with claws. lol
When Allah revealed ayat 55, He removed the dietary restrictions which He placed on Jews for their transgressions (not because He had created something bad/evil/fasiqun/rijisun by nature), thus, making their diet now contingent on what is in Al-Quran. Now, while Al- Quran was being revealed, especially ayat 55, Allah, is saying that the food of the Jews is halal to us. What halal food of the Jews was He talking about, while He was simulataneously revealing ayat 6146? The only thing we can know for certain is...it had to be animals with NO CLAWS of which the pig is one. Now, whatever else Allah made lawful an unlawful for them, relative to food anyway, we don't know.
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Peace and caution all,
Calm down guys and lets not get too personal, finger-pointing, inflicting and degrading each other. Tanveer's last post addressed to me was as such, sidetracked, excited and can further escalate. I will though refute or accept his imaginable claims soon. Until then
I request Tanveer to provide a web link to support the scientific claims rather than simply pasting named references. There are several thousand scientific studies ongoing and scientific journals in circulation. What specific study or journal is Tanveer addressing to, to claim his victory over Cirrhosis and other diseases only specific to pig's meat, beats me. I would also request Tanveer to provide evidence/link of scientific name of meat to mean muscle? That's all for now.
And btw, aren't the links that I provide earlier scientific studies/journals???
Read the headings and author's presentations/analysis/sutdies or whatever you may call them. Can you find anything to do with specifically pig's meat in them?
http//digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/cirrhosis/index.htm
http//cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/gi/cirrhosis.html -
EXCELLENT POINT.
Regards,
Tanveer
LOL! What excellent point? Ayats 55 and 6146, are talking about food. I'm discussing halal and haram food nothing else.
Certainly, Priest. Clearly shows how people get sidetracked and excited without giving much thought to discussion at hand. lol
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EXCELLENT POINT.
Regards,
Tanveer
LOL! What excellent point? Ayats 55 and 6146, are talking about food. I'm discussing halal and haram food nothing else.
Calm down guys and lets not get too personal, finger-pointing, inflicting and degrading each other.
Certainly, Priest. Clearly shows how people get sidetracked and excited without giving much thought to discussion at hand. lol
How true, Danish. Some here, get very emotional. I had to ask SC, to calm down and relax as well. They know their assertions are shaky; won't be long now. D