Is Swine Hallal
-
TANVEER,
I responded to two of your questions and utterly proved them to be nothing else than conjecture. Have you nothing to say or are you going to continue to ignore reality?
-
PEACE, DANISH
All you are doing is because the verse says so, hence Allah says so, without any thought and reason. BummER!
Absolutely! It nothing less than a classic illustration of circular argument.
Tanveer, as you've probably noticed, won't reply to my posts, despite the fact, I answered the questions he so ran me down to respond to! What is that about?!
It is no wonder that Allah said that, "if you were to bring them every sign, they still would not believe", and "if you follow the majority of those on earth, you would go astray".
Peace, Danish.
-
Peace Danish,
Peace Tanveer,
This is what I asked for
alkhinzeeri cannot be a noun and does not mean ONLY "meat of pig". Let me break it up and then analyze what it means and how it is understood in the verse
al-khinzeer-i =..........
al-khinzeer-an =..........
khinzeer-in =..........Fill in the blanks for me please. Note the al is a syntax and the i, an, and in are suffixes, correct?. When a suffix or a prefix is added to a noun, it gets modified and becomes WHAT?
And this is how you responded to my above quote
Please give evidence from Qur'aan's internal grammar and sentence structure to support this statement that you made, to back it up. I have already given my evidences in my posts.
I was considering the phrase "lahma alkhinzeeri" as a whole, and what "alkhinzeeri" means IN THAT PHRASE, not the word "alkhinzeeri" in isolation. In that phrase as used in 2173 and 16115, "alkhinzeeri" cannot be the adjective of "lahma", according to the internal grammar and internal sentence structure of Qur'aan. If you think otherwise, please provide your evidence from Qur'aan.
Changing tactics, huh!!! By the way, where did you learn the terms ?internal grammar? or ?internal sentence? from?
And this is what I mentioned earlier (in part) in retaliation to how discussions you guys carry out
...Ignoring the questions, giving incomplete answers, misquoting, side-tracking, misleading, counter questioning without first answering, finger-pointing and venturing out to talk about something else has become a norm for those who simply cannot either support their claims, are wishy-washy and/or are simply ignorant of the facts. These sorts of tactics are annoying, hypocritical and immature.
Extreme denial and beating around the bush. What a way to go, yet Every Which Way But Loose?
Lengthy post and still ZERO evidence from Qur'aan to back up your translation ! Speaks for itself.
Same with PB, I requested him to answer ALL my 10 questions addressed to him and he still has not responded to the remaining 8. Speaks for itself too.
-
Peace all,
393 says that all food was made halal to COI except what Israel forbade on himself. From that PB deduces that all possible food was sanctioned to COI by Allah's decree, and what COI forbade on themselves was self imposed. If that is true then all food includes "what is dedicated to other than Allah", so by sanctioning all possible food, Allah also sanctioned "what is dedicated to other than Allah" to COI, but then that would mean Allah sanctioning shirk ! Allah never ever sanctions shirk.
Another GRAVE contradiction created by PB's argument.
-
Salaam PB,
If this discussion isn't for me it isn't for anyone because all have right to participate in a discussion.
Peace
Sis Majidah
-
Salam Tanveer,
Peace all,
393 says that all food was made halal to COI except what Israel forbade on himself. From that PB deduces that all possible food was sanctioned to COI by Allah's decree, and what COI forbade on themselves was self imposed. If that is true then all food includes "what is dedicated to other than Allah", so by sanctioning all possible food, Allah also sanctioned "what is dedicated to other than Allah" to COI, but then that would mean Allah sanctioning shirk ! Allah never ever sanctions shirk.
Another GRAVE contradiction created by PB's argument.
In 393, THis is Israel and NOT the children of Israel who forbade for himself some food.
For more information
Banee isra-eel # Isra-eel (393, 1958 )thufur (6146) and animal hunting/aljawarih (54)
Salam
-
TANVEER,
Same with PB, I requested him to answer ALL my 10 questions addressed to him and he still has not responded to the remaining 8. Speaks for itself too.
You need to get by the first two, don't ya think?
393 says that all food was made halal to COI except what Israel forbade on himself. From that PB deduces that all possible food was sanctioned to COI by Allah's decree, and what COI forbade on themselves was self imposed. If that is true then all food includes "what is dedicated to other than Allah", so by sanctioning all possible food, Allah also sanctioned "what is dedicated to other than Allah" to COI, but then that would mean Allah sanctioning shirk ! Allah never ever sanctions shirk. Another GRAVE contradiction created by PB's argument.
2173 He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
As I said to you earlier, you don't read
Not a grave contradiction at all. You just love to conjecture, assume, and extrapolate, that's all. You, and erroneously so, assume that, "on that/what is" dedicated to Allah only means food for two reasons.
-
The words, in English anyway are..."on that/what is". "On that/what is" can be be anything! i.e. one's newborn child, your car, any favored material thing.
-
Then, the ayat says..."other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah.". Once again, many invoke the name of Jesus over all kinds of material things none of which have anything to do all with food. Hindus, bless their children and property by invoking the names of their many gods. The so-called Muslim, constantly utters ALLAHU AKBAR! over every thing completely oblivious that, Allah, has no such name as AKBAR or the GREATER.
So much for your..."what is dedicated to other than Allah".
Next question.
-
-
ayat 6146 states, relative the specific category of animals which were made haram for the Jews to eat, where animals with CLAWS
Discrepancy Alert !!!!
Thanks Duh for pointing out this discrepancy, I will add it to the list
Discrepancies in the QuranVerse 6146 Contradicts 7160 where its says that God send down quails for the Children of Israel to EAT. And quails have 'Thufur"
7160 "..We sent to them manna and quails Eat of the good things We have given you"
Even Translators like Yusuf Ali and Khalifa saw the discrepancy and changed 6146 to read "animals with undivided hoofs"
"Thufur" in respect to humans means Nail and it means Claw or talon for birds and animals.
-
PEACE, MARIE,
Salam Tanveer,
Peace all,
393 says that all food was made halal to COI except what Israel forbade on himself. From that PB deduces that all possible food was sanctioned to COI by Allah's decree, and what COI forbade on themselves was self imposed. If that is true then all food includes "what is dedicated to other than Allah", so by sanctioning all possible food, Allah also sanctioned "what is dedicated to other than Allah" to COI, but then that would mean Allah sanctioning shirk ! Allah never ever sanctions shirk.
Another GRAVE contradiction created by PB's argument.
In 393, THis is Israel and NOT the children of Israel who forbade for himself some food.
For more information
Banee isra-eel # Isra-eel (393, 1958 )thufur (6146) and animal hunting/aljawarih (54)
Salam
The ayat says...what Israel made haram for himself, NOT what Allah made haram for him/them.
Also, I must investigate whether the ayat says "himself" or "itself". Nonetheless, the ayat, does not mention that Allah made something haram.
Looking forward to your reply.
-
Indeed albion when one translate the Reading to fit his point that probably creates contradictions.
Only the Reading is trusted not the human's translation.
Looking for a good translation for the word thufur which is coherent with the whole Reading GW.
Take care
-
Peace Marie,
Thats a good point you raised, I just read it...I totally agree birds are animals with claws, there is no getting around that fact. Quails are birds and also animals with claws, kept them as pets once upon a time...
-
Peace all,
Keeping the above in mind, could it be possible for the CoI to be allowed them in the start and then be restricted from them due to their transgressions? What about the difference between CoI and Jews (those guided)? Were they CoI in the start and then were called Jews when the torah came down, even though their lineage would still be the children of Israel? Can all Jews be called children of Israel, I don't think so, as one title is directly referencing lineage and the other is referencing those guided by the book/law/torah so it's a more encompassing term than lineage only... Just some thoughts/questions...
-
Peace Jaxal,
But a jew is a jew. And all jews follow torah. Lineage or no lineage. Torah forbids pork. So all practising jews dont eat pork. they dont care if they have the lineage or not.
It was an observation that there seems to be a distinction between the CoI and the Jews (those guided). It seems that one title is referring to their lineage whereas the other is referring to their 'guided state' (might be after the torah is revealed, I haven't checked all instances of the word Jew used before the torah was revealed yet if there are any). If we look at verse 2136
Say "We believed with God and what was descended to us and what was descended to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Issac, and Jacob, and the grandchildren/branches/Jewish tribes , and what was given to Moses, and Jesus , and what was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not separate/distinguish between anyone from them, and we are to Him.
There is something that has been descended to them before Moses.
edited to add
Checked references to Jews and all seem to be after the revelation of the Torah unless I have missed one, on the other hand, children of Israel is used after the Torah is revealed in many instances . -
PEACE, SAVAGE C. and ALL,
SAVAGE C. Keeping the above in mind, could it be possible for the CoI to be allowed them in the start and then be restricted from them due to their transgressions?
Thurfur, without doubt, means claws and quails have claws, this is clear. As Al-Quran cannot contradict itself, you may have the correct response to what, initially, may appear to be a discrepancy. Another possibility is that, manna and quail may have absolutely nothing to do with food at all, but states of well-being.
Main Entry MANNA/ MIM- NUN to fatigue to be gracious reproach lay under obligation to be liberal to bestow a grace or favor on any one. The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, Abdul Mannan Omar, pg. 543
Main Entry SALWA/SALA/QUAIL to be careless about a thing diverted from console be dispelled from grief comfort consolation quail honey. The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, Abdul Mannan Omar, pg. 269.
From the above definitions then, manna . As manna means grace/favor and salwa means comfort/consolation, these definitions, then, are totally consistent with what they COI must have experienced during their sojourn and, at the same time, these definitions dispell any notion of a discrepancy between ayats 6146 and 7160, as albion is claiming.
Additionally, given that ayat 6146 precedes ayat 7160, and clearly states that animals with claws were haram for the Jews, salwa, then, in ayat 7160, cannot mean the animal quail, as it would contradict 6146.
What about the difference between CoI and Jews (those guided)? Were they CoI in the start and then were called Jews when the torah came down, even though their lineage would still be the children of Israel? Can all Jews be called children of Israel, I don't think so, as one title is directly referencing lineage and the other is referencing those guided by the book/law/torah so it's a more encompassing term than lineage only... Just some thoughts/questions...
Excellent questions. These are important questions and should not get lost in this thread. How do you feel about starting a thread dedicated to them? If not, that is fine too.
2140 Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
Given the above ayat, the Jews are posterior to the Children of Israel, hence, there is a difference between the two designations.
Looking forward to your reply.
-
Peace PB,
Thurfur, without doubt, means claws and quails have claws, this is clear. As Al-Quran cannot contradict itself, you may have the correct response to what, initially, may appear to be a discrepancy. Another possibility is that, manna and quail may have absolutely nothing to do with food at all, but states of well-being.
I agree, it could be but sometimes one dictionary doesn't give all the meanings of a particular word, so it would be prudent to check all classical arabic dictionaries for the meaning of manna, I think it is also called something else to do with foodstuff (sap something sweet, to do with nectar/honey) but am not sure. In which case the former could well be the solution...
Excellent questions. These are important questions and should not get lost in this thread. How do you feel about starting a thread dedicated to them? If not, that is fine too.
I'm sure this is an important distinction, especially so when even after the revelation of the Torah, they are referred to as CoI...I will be studying this aspect a bit further, it seems worthy of some thought...I might not be around too much on the forum (Sept, kids school and all), so please go ahead and start one, maybe others can give their thoughts on this as well?
-
PEACE, SAVAGE C.
I agree, it could be but sometimes one dictionary doesn't give all the meanings of a particular word, so it would be prudent to check all classical arabic dictionaries for the meaning of manna,
I wish I could, but the only English/Arabic dictionaries I have as resources are, The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar and A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, by Hans Wehr. The Hans Wehr dictionary had the same meaning for manna and quail as Omar's; this is what lead me to consider that manna and quail were probably not foddstuffs, as neither dictionary listed manna as being any kind of known foodstuff. Where I did find manna defined as a plant, it use was medicinal (laxative) and not a food.
I think it is also called something else to do with foodstuff (sap something sweet, to do with nectar/honey) but am not sure. In which case the former could well be the solution...
"The term manna is also used in the modern context to refer to a secretion from various plants, including certain desert or semi-desert shrubs and especially the Ash Fraxinus ornus (manna or flowering ash) of Southern Europe. The material is produced by sap-sucking insects that secrete a honeydew like liquid, that when dried forms manna; it has a sweet taste. Eaten in large quantities, it is mildly laxative and has been used medicinally for that purpose."--Retrieved from "http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna"
I'm sure this is an important distinction, especially so when even after the revelation of the Torah, they are referred to as CoI...I will be studying this aspect a bit further, it seems worthy of some thought...I might not be around too much on the forum (Sept, kids school and all), so please go ahead and start one, maybe others can give their thoughts on this as well?
Hmmm...kids and school, eh?...tell you what, hire help and don't leave. Please don't thank me for the idea, problem solving is what I do. I will consider starting a thread on the COI vs. Jew issue. After some more discussion the sus scrofa, I want to get back to my thread on...IS OPINION/CONJECTURE, RELATIVE TO ALLAH AND DEEN...LYING? I know you are really going to be on me about this one LOL!, but I look forward to that.
-
Peace PB,
Hmmm...kids and school, eh?...tell you what, hire help and don't leave. Please don't thank me for the idea, problem solving is what I do. I will consider starting a thread on the COI vs. Jew issue. After some more discussion the sus scrofa, I want to get back to my thread on...IS OPINION/CONJECTURE, RELATIVE TO ALLAH AND DEEN...LYING? I know you are really going to be on me about this one LOL!, but I look forward to that.
Yeah, hire help huh?!? What kind of mother do you think I am?!? Actually I was looking into it...anyway I will be back after a while, see if you've started another discussion that makes people tear their hair out and indulge myself for a bit. T'care.
-
PB, I would like to re-ask you a question that have already been asked to you, and which you have not already responded to.
-> Are dead meat (carrion), blood, and anything that has been dedicated to other than Allah permitted, or forbidden, to Children of Israel ?
If you answer it has been forbidden, does it not contradict with "All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel " ( ?
Thanks in advance for your response to this clear question,
Peace