Is Swine Hallal
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PEACE, JAXAL,
SaLaM PB
Are you certain that...the translation of lahma khinzerin...is correct? Wink If so, what is your source?
My source? maybe becoz i know arabic ? roll
Well, if you know Arabic, then, answer the following points
6146 For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone this in recompense for their wilful disobedience for We are true (in Our ordinances).
53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine...
55 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them...
Well, now we are getting somewhere at last!! If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pig", according to you/others
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Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
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If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
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Lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran.
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In ayat 6146, Allah, is simply informing mankind EXACTLY what He had forbidden the Jews to eat PRIOR to the coming of the Messenger Jesus and The Last Messenger/Al-Quran. If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pigs", as you and the others who you are in communication with claim, then where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat the "meat of pigs", because it certainly aint in ayat 6146? D Please post that ayat, thanks.
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If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
No opinion...just Quranic facts, thanks.
Looking forward to your reply.
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SaLaM PB
Im really supprised at your response brother. But in addition to what i said earlier, here is ur proof.
U said in ur post
- .... then where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat the "meat of pigs", because it certainly aint in ayat 6146? Very Happy Please post that ayat, thanks.
This you answered as well
No, mankind is commanded to obey Al-Quran/follow its Guidance.
Then u asked
- If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
The answer
No, mankind is commanded to obey Al-Quran/follow its Guidance.
So in your defination of mankind, jews are not included? What kind of mankind is that?
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LOL! It's your erroneous position, so...you address it.
LOL! How soon we forget...to refresh your memory
- If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
Transliteration 560
Qul hal onabbi-okum bisharrin min thalika mathoobatan AAinda Allahi man laAAanahu Allahu waghadiba AAalayhi wajaAAala minhumu alqiradata waalkhanazeera waAAabada alttaghooti ola-ika sharrun makanan waadallu AAan sawa-i alssabeeli
There unfortunately, is no lahm(meat) in 560, there is just khanazeera.
Transliteration 6145
Qul la ajidu feema oohiya ilayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu illa an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahi bihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun
There is, however, lahm in 6145 and the others...
Lahma khanzeerin means meat of pig...khanazeera is the pig.
When reading 560, the meaning of the context is gauged by the literal words used...thats what is meant by metaphorical roll Just because pig is used doesn't mean the humans literally turned into pigs...the context determines that, NOT the literal words used. Pig is a pig how they turned is upto you...whether it is a literal or metaphorical turning is irrelevant to this discussion of pig and it's meat.
How do you know 560 is metaphorical, does Allah say that it is a metaphor/similitude? What is your Quranic "gauge" for determining the difference? Regardless, lahma khinzerin cannot be the flesh of pig...and that is a fact. If not, then, by all means, provide your Quranic proof. Tanveer, was not able to do so. Perhaps you will fare better. Here
6146 For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone this in recompense for their wilful disobedience for We are true (in Our ordinances).
53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine...
55 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them...
Well, now we are getting somewhere at last!! If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pig", according to you/others
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Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
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If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position? (UNDER DISCUSSION)
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Lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran. (UNDER DISCUSSION)
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In ayat 6146, Allah, is simply informing mankind EXACTLY what He had forbidden the Jews to eat PRIOR to the coming of the Messenger Jesus and The Last Messenger/Al-Quran. If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pigs", as you and the others who you are in communication with claim, then where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat the "meat of pigs", because it certainly aint in ayat 6146? D Please post that ayat, thanks.
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If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
Take your time. wink
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PEACE, JAXAL,
I have no idea what you are talking about. Do this, given that you know Arabic, and based on your Arabic knowledge of Al-Quran, just answer the 5 points I presented to you, thanks.
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SaLaM PB
Tho dissapointed, I will YET AGAIN answer it to you
- If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
The answer, brace yourself.... ready? Ok here it comes
No, mankind is commanded to obey Al-Quran/follow its Guidance.
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Peace Priest Bokmei,
It is clear to me that you either do not read my posts completely or that you do not want to answer my questions or address my points.
- Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
I already answered this in one of my previous posts. This is proof that you do not read my posts.
- If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
I never said what you are saying. Another proof you do not read my posts. Allah turned accursed humans into "khanazeer", not "lahma khanazeer". I also already told you what my position is in one of my previous posts regarding this; it is obvious you have ignored what I said.
- Lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran.
I never said "lahma khinzeerin" means two different things in Qur'aan. You are outrightly inventing lies about me, which is not a good practice. Another proof that you are not reading my posts. What I said was that this phrase COULD possibly mean two different meanings, and I showed you which meaning is the logical one in context of 6147. Just like "daraba" could have six possible meanings, but the context of usage of "daraba" determines its meaning in that particular ayat.
What "lahma khinzeerin" means does not make any difference to the point I am trying to make.
Please focus on the point I am trying to bring to your attention and please answer my question so that the discussion can progress. In my discussion, I am not going to translate "lahma khinzeerin" for now, but use the exact word, so there is no conjecture. Let me repeat
6148 does not mention blood, dead meat and "what was dedicated to other than The God" as being haram for the Jews, so then are they also halal for mankind according to 57 ?
Please answer this question and stop eluding this. I asked you this question first, so you should have the courtesy to reply to this question before expecting me to answer your questions.
Given that Allah makes no mention in 6148 of the Jews being forbidden to eat blood, dead meat, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah", how is blood, dead meat, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah" forbidden then ? And if they are not forbidden to Jews, then how can they be forbidden to mankind per 57 ? But then that would clearly contradict 6147.
Given that Allah, in 6148, does not forbid the Jews to eat lahma khinzeerin, hence, according to you it was lawful to them, and ayat 57 states that their food and our food are halal for each other, lahma khinzeerin, then, whatever it means, has to be halal for mankind. But then that would contradict 6147; how would you resolve that contradiction ?
- In ayat 6146, Allah, is simply informing mankind EXACTLY what He had forbidden the Jews to eat PRIOR to the coming of the Messenger Jesus and The Last Messenger/Al-Quran. If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pigs", as you and the others who you are in communication with claim, then where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat the "meat of pigs", because it certainly aint in ayat 6146? Please post that ayat, thanks.
You answered that yourself as follows, did you forget already ?
Now, although ayat 6147 does not mention the Jews specifically, ayat 6147 does mention what is haram for mankind--the Jews included, thus, the things made haram in ayat 6147 are haram for the Jews as well. I'm certain you must agree with this also. Also keep in mind that, it would be very cumbersome to list all that is halal in Al-Quran, hence, Allah, simply names what is haram and what is not haram is halal. With this in mind then there is no contradiction between ayats 6146-7 and 148 at all.
You yourself told everyone the answer to your question in the underlined sentence of yours above !!
You are persistently not answering my question and the points raised in my posts, thereby showing elusive behavior. I thought you already agreed that Allah forbade "lahma khinzeerin" to Jews in 6147, because mankind includes Jews.
Your supposed/presumed contradiction is created due to your faulty understanding of 6148 and your flawed logic.
6148 is clearly a continuation of 6147 because of the word "and" (no implications, just a fact). That clearly shows that what is made haram to Jews in 6148 is IN ADDITION TO what is made haram for all mankind (including Jews) in 6147 ( as you have already agreed) and that is the punishment for Jews for their rebellion.
According to your faulty logic however, blood, dead meat, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah would be halal for Jews, as 6148 does not make them haram for Jews. But when you look at 6147 and 6148 together
6147 Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or lahma khinzeerin, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
6148 AND for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.the list of haram food FOR THE JEWS would be as follows
- Already dead
- Blood
- Lahma khinzeerin
- What is dedicated to other than Allah
- All that have claws
- Fat of cattle and sheep except what is attached to back, entrails, or mixed with bone.
ALL OF THE ABOVE WERE MADE HARAM FOR JEWS. 1-4 haram for mankind. 1-6 haram for Jews (5 and 6 haram only for Jews in addition to 1-4 as a punishment for their rebellion).
When you keep this in mind, 57 becomes very clear, and there is NO CONTRADICTION between 6147, 6148, and 57.
57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them;
Food of Jews (people of scripture) = everything except 1-6 mentioned above = lawful for mankind
Mankind's food = everything except 1-4 mentioned above = lawful for Jews (them) (the 5 and 6 were made lawful for them by Allah through Jesus)
Therefore NO CONTRADICTION. Q.E.D.
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PEACE, JAXAL,
Well, you've lost me! lol
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SaLaM PB
As savage carrect said, What part of my post eludes your grasp?
In addition to what tanveer said, Let me give you the verse from the Torah, Torah being for the JEWS, where it was forbidden for them to NOT eat the flesh of pig. By the way, u should do ur research. Try putting some effort in your post PRist.
4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that part the hoof the camel, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you.
5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you.
6 And the hare, because she cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, she is unclean unto you.
7 And the swine, because he parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you.Will you still argue that the flesh of the pig was not forbidden to the jews?
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Peace Priest Bokmei,
- If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
According to your twisted logic above, dead meat, blood, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah, are also halal for mankind per 57, because Allah did not make dead meat, blood, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah" haram for Jews in 6148. But then that would contradict 6147.
Is that your position ?Given that Allah, in 6148, does not forbid the Jews to eat lahma khinzeerin, hence, according to you it was lawful to them, and ayat 57 states that their food and our food are halal for each other, lahma khinzeerin, then, whatever it means, has to be halal for mankind. But then that would contradict 6147; how would you resolve that contradiction ?
You have refused to answer these questions time and again, which shows that either you have no response to them or you do not wish to answer. I will be waiting patiently for your replies. wait
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PEACE, TANVEER,
It is clear to me that you either do not read my posts completely or that you do not want to answer my questions or address my points.
I an only interested in one point...what is the definiton of lahma khinzerin, that is it.
PBM 1. Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
I already answered this in one of my previous posts. This is proof that you do not read my posts.
Then why didn't you re-post it? Please do so, thanks.
PBM 2. If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
I never said what you are saying. Another proof you do not read my posts. Allah turned accursed humans into "khanazeer", not "lahma khanazeer". I also already told you what my position is in one of my previous posts regarding this; it is obvious you have ignored what I said.
Did Allah turn human being into actual pigs, yes or no?
PBM 3. Lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran.
I never said "lahma khinzeerin" means two different things in Qur'aan. You are outrightly inventing lies about me, which is not a good practice. Another proof that you are not reading my posts.
It is you my friend who is not reading. Nowhere did I accuse you of anything. I simply asked you questions, that was all.
What I said was that this phrase COULD possibly mean two different meanings, and I showed you which meaning is the logical one in context of 6147. Just like "daraba" could have six possible meanings, but the context of usage of "daraba" determines its meaning in that particular ayat.
"COULD" , is an indefinite term and means you are guessing/conjecturing, yes? If a particular ayat can have, as you claim, six different meanings, well, that would create many dsicrepancies within Al-Quran. Please post the ayat where Allah says that His ayat can have six different meanings. If you cannot, then you are conjecturing and assgning a falsehood to Allah.
What "lahma khinzeerin" means does not make any difference to the point I am trying to make.
I am not concerned with what lahma khinzerin doesn't mean, but what it does mean. Unless lahma khimzerin is properly defined, ayats 53, 55 and 6146 will not make any sense. Please focus on that, thanks.
You are persistently not answering my question and the points raised in my posts, thereby showing elusive behavior. I thought you already agreed that Allah forbade "lahma khinzeerin" to Jews in 6147, because mankind includes Jews.
Ayat 6146 tells us EXACTLY what Allah forbade the Jews, that is all. Btw, why do you keep quoting 6147?? It has nothing to do with the discussion.
6;147 But if they give you the lie, then say Your Lord is the Lord of All-encompassing mercy; and His punishment cannot be averted from the guilty people.
Your supposed/presumed contradiction is created due to your faulty understanding of 6148 and your flawed logic.
Why are you quoting 6148?? It has nothing to do with the discussion??
6148 Those who are polytheists will say If Allah had pleased we would not have associated (aught with Him) nor our fathers, nor would we have forbidden (to ourselves) anything; even so did those before them reject until they tasted Our punishment. Say Have you any knowledge with you so you should bring it forth to us? You only follow a conjecture and you only tell lies.
6148 is clearly a continuation of 6147 because of the word "and" (no implications, just a fact). That clearly shows that what is made haram to Jews in 6148 is IN ADDITION TO what is made haram for all mankind (including Jews) in 6147 ( as you have already agreed) and that is the punishment for Jews for their rebellion.
According to your faulty logic however, blood, dead meat, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah would be halal for Jews, as 6148 does not make them haram for Jews. But when you look at 6147 and 6148 together
I'm discussing ayats 53, 55 and 6146. Please, let's get on the same page, thanks.
6147 Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or lahma khinzeerin, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
6148 AND for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.You are posting the wrong ayats, Tanveer.
the list of haram food FOR THE JEWS would be as follows
- Already dead
- Blood
- Lahma khinzeerin
- What is dedicated to other than Allah
- All that have claws
- Fat of cattle and sheep except what is attached to back, entrails, or mixed with bone.
ALL OF THE ABOVE WERE MADE HARAM FOR JEWS. 1-4 haram for mankind. 1-6 haram for Jews (5 and 6 haram only for Jews in addition to 1-4 as a punishment for their rebellion).
Where do you get your conclusions from? 5 and 6, were the things haram for the Jews PRIOR to the Messenger Jesus and the Last Messenger/Al-Quran. With the coming of Al-Quran, 1-4, are haram for ALL of mankind. 5 and 6, were always halal for mankind, and with the coming of Al-Quran, become halal for the Jews as well. What is the problem?
When you keep this in mind, 57 becomes very clear, and there is NO CONTRADICTION between 6147, 6148, and 57.
57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them;
You are posting wrong ayats, Tanveer, and this is a major problem.
The ayats under discussion are 53, 55, 6146. Please stay focused. If I mislead you, then I apologize.
My position is this khinzeerin/pigs, are not haram to for muslims or Jews to eat, and ayats 53, 55, 6146, prove this. Now, do you disagree, yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, JAXAL,
As savage carrect said, What part of my post eludes your grasp?
All of it.
In addition to what tanveer said, Let me give you the verse from the Torah, Torah being for the JEWS, where it was forbidden for them to NOT eat the flesh of pig. By the way, u should do ur research. Try putting some effort in your post PRist.
LEVITICUS , CHAPTER 11
4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that part the hoof the camel, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you.
5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you.
6 And the hare, because she cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, she is unclean unto you.
7 And the swine, because he parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you.Three things
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Al-Quran, is the Book of Guidance/Law for mankind (2185)...NOT the Torah. While Allah, time to time, tells mankind to refer back to prior scriptures, it is for a specific thing i.e. "that they will find the Messenger mentioned in their scriptures", however, He does not tell mankind to follow the prior scriptures along with Al-Quran for guidance/law...agreed?
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The Torah account, regarding what was made haram for the Jews to eat, is oppositional/in contradiction to what Allah says in Al-Quran He forbade the Jews to eat ]6146]...which account is the truth? They both cannot be right, because that would constitute a contradiction.
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I have done my research...now you must do yours. wink
Will you still argue that the flesh of the pig was not forbidden to the jews?
LOL! Of course!
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SaLaM PB
My position is this khinzeerin/pigs, are not haram to for muslims or Jews to eat, and ayats 53, 55, 6146, prove this. Now, do you disagree, yes or no?
God telling ALL MANKIND not to eat pigs
Innama harrama AAalaykumu almaytata waalddama walahma alkhinzeeri wama ohilla bihi lighayri Allahi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fala ithma AAalayhi inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun
He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
God telling Jews not to eat pigs
4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that part the hoof the camel, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you.
5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you.
6 And the hare, because she cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, she is unclean unto you.
7 And the swine, because he parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you.I hope this is simple enough for you to understand. Once again PRIEST, please put more thought and effort in your posts.
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PEACE, TANVEER,
Peace Priest Bokmei,
- If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
According to your twisted logic above, dead meat, blood, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah, are also halal for mankind per 57, because Allah did not make dead meat, blood, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah" haram for Jews in 6148. But then that would contradict 6147.
Is that your position ?Given that Allah, in 6148, does not forbid the Jews to eat lahma khinzeerin, hence, according to you it was lawful to them, and ayat 57 states that their food and our food are halal for each other, lahma khinzeerin, then, whatever it means, has to be halal for mankind. But then that would contradict 6147; how would you resolve that contradiction ?
You have refused to answer these questions time and again, which shows that either you have no response to them or you do not wish to answer. I will be waiting patiently for your replies. wait
Tell you what, please post the ayats which you are referring to and I will answer this post. It seems to me that, you are posting irrelevent ayats.
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PEACE, JAXAL,
Please answer my questions in my last post to you, thanks.
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SaLaM PB
IF you have reseached, then may i sujjest you research harder? Clearly God forbade Jews from eating Pigs and i have given the corresponding verses from the Torah. You ask me why should you give those verses any importance when the Quran is for all mankind. So i give you a verse from the Quran which is for all mankind, yes even the jews, forbidding the mankind from eating pigs.
Now you are asking which account is the truth? Both of them? But for the sake of argument, maybe somehow, someway, the torah was a corrupt book and the verses i gave you are totally false, then we look at the Quran. Quran clearly tells MANKIND not to eat pigs.
Then you change your mind and go back to saying, oh oh but GOD didnt forbid jews to eat the pigs. To which i give you the verses from LEVITICUS. But then you say , oh oh but its the Torah and i dont have to follow it. To which i say, Quran also forbids MANKIND from eating pigs. U need to address the issue at hand. Both Torah AND Quran forbid us from eating the pig. Pick one book, and have faith in God that he is telling the truth .http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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Peace Priest Bokmei,
PBM 1. Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
Quote
I already answered this in one of my previous posts. This is proof that you do not read my posts.Then why didn't you re-post it? Please do so, thanks.
I have already replied in my previous post. For you to ask me to re-post it is being rude. You ask me a question, I reply to it, you don't bother to read my reply, and now you want me to re-post it. How much more rude and disrespectful can one be ? Am I your slave ? Please go back and read my previous posts.
PBM 2. If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
Quote
I never said what you are saying. Another proof you do not read my posts. Allah turned accursed humans into "khanazeer", not "lahma khanazeer". I also already told you what my position is in one of my previous posts regarding this; it is obvious you have ignored what I said.Did Allah turn human being into actual pigs, yes or no?
I have already answered this in my previous posts. You still have not answered me though. Did Allah turn human beings into actual apes ?
PBM 3. Lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran.
Quote
I never said "lahma khinzeerin" means two different things in Qur'aan. You are outrightly inventing lies about me, which is not a good practice. Another proof that you are not reading my posts.It is you my friend who is not reading. Nowhere did I accuse you of anything. I simply asked you questions, that was all.
And I have given you the answer as to what "lahma khinzeerin" means. Please read my previous posts.
"COULD" , is an indefinite term and means you are guessing/conjecturing, yes? If a particular ayat can have, as you claim, six different meanings, well, that would create many dsicrepancies within Al-Quran. Please post the ayat where Allah says that His ayat can have six different meanings. If you cannot, then you are conjecturing and assgning a falsehood to Allah.
You are again misquoting me and inventing lies. I never said a particular ayat can have six different meanings. I said a word in arabic could have different meanings, and the exact meaning of that multi-meaning word in an ayat can only be determined by the context in which the word is used. Please refrain from inventing lies about me, for that is extremely rude.
Ayat 6146 tells us EXACTLY what Allah forbade the Jews, that is all. Btw, why do you keep quoting 6147?? It has nothing to do with the discussion.
6;147 But if they give you the lie, then say Your Lord is the Lord of All-encompassing mercy; and His punishment cannot be averted from the guilty people.
I am quoting from the Warsh version of Qur'aan in which 6146 is 6148 and 6145 is 6147. I quote pm translations which use the Warsh verse numbering.
Why are you quoting 6148?? It has nothing to do with the discussion??
Please see above. 6146 is 6148 in pm translation.
I'm discussing ayats 53, 55 and 6146. Please, let's get on the same page, thanks.
Please see above. I request you to get on the same page, as I already am !! 55 is 57 in pm translation.
You are posting the wrong ayats, Tanveer.
I am not. Please see above. Please read the pm translation, it is available on this same website.
Where do you get your conclusions from? 5 and 6, were the things haram for the Jews PRIOR to the Messenger Jesus and the Last Messenger/Al-Quran. With the coming of Al-Quran, 1-4, are haram for ALL of mankind. 5 and 6, were always halal for mankind, and with the coming of Al-Quran, become halal for the Jews as well. What is the problem?
Just like Jesus was given the Injeel by Allah, making the haram for Jews halal, just like that Qur'aan makes 1-4 haram for Jews per 6147 (mankind includes Jews). 5 and 6 were not ALWAYS halal for ALL mankind, because they were haram to Jews in past and mankind includes Jews.
Read your statement again, closely
5 and 6, were always halal for mankind, and with the coming of Al-Quran, become halal for the Jews as well. What is the problem?
According to this statement made by you, Jews are not part of mankind ? This is hilarious rotfl
You are posting wrong ayats, Tanveer, and this is a major problem.
The ayats under discussion are 53, 55, 6146. Please stay focused. If I mislead you, then I apologize.
I am not posting the wrong ayaat. Please see above. I am using the pm translation which uses Warsh verse numbering. No need to apologize brother. )
My position is this khinzeerin/pigs, are not haram to for muslims or Jews to eat, and ayats 53, 55, 6146, prove this. Now, do you disagree, yes or no?
Ayaat 55 (53) and 6147 (6145) clearly say lahma alkhinzeerin is haram for mankind
55 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and lahma alkhinzeerin, and what was sacrificed to other than God,
Tell you what, please post the ayats which you are referring to and I will answer this post. It seems to me that, you are posting irrelevent ayats.
I am not posting irrelevant ayaat. I am using pm translation which uses Warsh verse numbering. I have already posted the relevant ayaat many times, so you should go back and read my posts. I will this time post the relevant ayaats the last time however
6147 Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or lahma khinzeerin, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
6148 And for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
55 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the lahma alkhinzeerin, and what was sacrificed to other than God,
57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them;
Now please go back and read my previous posts, and answer my questions.
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PEACE, JAXAL,
IF you have reseached, then may i sujjest you research harder? Clearly God forbade Jews from eating Pigs and i have given the corresponding verses from the Torah. You ask me why should you give those verses any importance when the Quran is for all mankind. So i give you a verse from the Quran which is for all mankind, yes even the jews, forbidding the mankind from eating pigs.
You've assumed as I did that, khinzerin, has been properly translated, which it hasn't. If khanzerin is pig, then, this idea is in contradition to ayats 6146 and 55.
Now you are asking which account is the truth? Both of them? But for the sake of argument, maybe somehow, someway, the torah was a corrupt book and the verses i gave you are totally false, then we look at the Quran. Quran clearly tells MANKIND not to eat pigs.
Both of them cannot be true. Allah, in Al-Quran, does not mention the pig as being haram for the Jews. Look back at ayat 6146.
Then you change your mind and go back to saying, oh oh but GOD didnt forbid jews to eat the pigs. To which i give you the verses from LEVITICUS. But then you say , oh oh but its the Torah and i dont have to follow it. To which i say, Quran also forbids MANKIND from eating pigs. U need to address the issue at hand. Both Torah AND Quran forbid us from eating the pig. Pick one book, and have faith in God that he is telling the truth .http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
I haven't changed my mind about anything. The Torah, is NOT the guidance/law for mankind, period. If you wish to insist that it is, well, that will be on you.
This discussion is simply over your head at this time.
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PEACE, TANVEER,
PBM 1. Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
I have already replied in my previous post. For you to ask me to re-post it is being rude. You ask me a question, I reply to it, you don't bother to read my reply, and now you want me to re-post it. How much more rude and disrespectful can one be ? Am I your slave ? Please go back and read my previous posts.
Asking you to re-post something isn't being rude or making you my slave, it is simply asking for clarification. The time you spent making excuses why you can't produce your answer, you could have easily re-posted your reply to my above question. I don't know where your response is. If you have a clear and coherent reply to my above question, well, just post it. If you continue to refuse to do this, I can only assume you really didn't answer the question meaningfully and now you want to be elusive.
PBM 2. If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
I have already answered this in my previous posts. You still have not answered me though. Did Allah turn human beings into actual apes ?
Well, then post your answer then, if you know for certain.
PBM 3. lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran.
And I have given you the answer as to what "lahma khinzeerin" means. Please read my previous posts.
Allow me to rephrase
- khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran.
PBM "COULD" , is an indefinite term and means you are guessing/conjecturing, yes? If a particular ayat can have, as you claim, six different meanings, well, that would create many dsicrepancies within Al-Quran. Please post the ayat where Allah says that His ayat can have six different meanings. If you cannot, then you are conjecturing and assgning a falsehood to Allah.
You are again misquoting me and inventing lies. I never said a particular ayat can have six different meanings. I said a word in arabic could have different meanings, and the exact meaning of that multi-meaning word in an ayat can only be determined by the context in which the word is used. Please refrain from inventing lies about me, for that is extremely rude.
You're losing control, Tanveer. I am not lying on you.
Anyway, you continue to make my point. If an Arabic word has many several different meanings, and these meanings, according to you, can change depending upon the context, then, this would create discrepancies within Al-Quran. I agree that, an Arabic word can have several different meanings, however, Allah, only uses one of those meanings in His Quran, otherwise, He would create discrepancies within Al-Quran. Can't you understand this?
I am quoting from the Warsh version of Qur'aan in which 6146 is 6148 and 6145 is 6147. I quote pm translations which use the Warsh verse numbering.
Please see above. 6146 is 6148 in pm translation.
I'm discussing ayats 53, 55 and 6146. Please, let's get on the same page, thanks.
Please see above. I request you to get on the same page, as I already am !! 55 is 57 in pm translation.
I am not. Please see above. Please read the pm translation, it is available on this same website.
Use Warsh translation if you must, however, for continuity and to minimize confusion, number the ayats according to the other translations.
PBM Where do you get your conclusions from? 5 and 6, were the things haram for the Jews PRIOR to the Messenger Jesus and the Last Messenger/Al-Quran. With the coming of Al-Quran, 1-4, are haram for ALL of mankind. 5 and 6, were always halal for mankind, and with the coming of Al-Quran, become halal for the Jews as well. What is the problem?
Just like Jesus was given the Injeel by Allah, making the haram for Jews halal, just like that Qur'aan makes 1-4 haram for Jews per 6147 (mankind includes Jews). 5 and 6 were not ALWAYS halal for ALL mankind, because they were haram to Jews in past and mankind includes Jews. Read your statement again, closely
5 and 6, were always halal for mankind, and with the coming of Al-Quran, become halal for the Jews as well. What is the problem?
According to this statement made by you, Jews are not part of mankind ? This is hilarious rotfl
What is your point, Tanveer? You are not making sense, man. What, exactly, per khanzerin/meat of pigs, are you trying to establish in your above comment or any comment? Look, PRIOR to the Jews rebelling, 5 and 6 were halal for them and mankind.
Now, Jesus, was allowed to make part of what was forbidden the Jews halal, however, Allah, does not tell us what he made halal.
Now, even after they rebelled, these 5 and 6 remained halal for mankind in general.
Now, given that the muslims were part of mankind, for whom these things remained halal, and ayat 55 says that muslims food is lawful to the Jews, well, 5 and 6 with the coming of Al-Quran, made 5 and 6 halal for the Jews.
Now, given that 6146 does not mention khinzerin as one of the haram foods of the Jews, swine, then, was never made haram for the Jews by Allah. With this in mind then, ayat 55 makes their food halal to us, and given that Allah never made meat of swine haram to the Jews, then, swine is halal for muslims. I simply cannot make this any clearer. If you cannot get it now, well, then it is not for you to get.
Now please go back and read my previous posts, and answer my questions.
Now that's hilarious! D
Listen, go back, read your own posts, and re-post your supposed answers to my questions. If you cannot do this, then you are simply bereft of any meaningful answers and all you are doing is playing games. Please don't waste yours and my time again and post why you refuse to comply, thanks.
Loking forward to your response.