Is God deceptive???
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salam alykum,
Verse 4157 states
That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah';- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
My question is this
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,
if this is true then making something to appear... as something that it is not... is deception.
Does God decieve? or is this an issue of translation?
any who has knowledge about this topic please share?
Amanda
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Salaams Amanda,
The title gives me the impression of someone very weak in their faith to God.???
But
"so it was made to appear " Should read " seemed as if had been so" that is according to the quranic Dictionary.
And believe me if you spent enough time you will find a lot of mistranslations.
Gods Blessings be on you.
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Peace Amanda,
It seems pretty clear that this verse was translated with the traditional bias in mind that Jesus was replaced by Judas on the cross and thus lifted into Heaven before he could be executed. According to tradition, Judas was made to look exactly like Jesus ("so it was made to appear to them...").
Deceptive? Yes
True? DoubtfulPeace,
Tay -
Peace Amanda,
Read the verse again...
And their saying ?We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!? They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty. 4157
They deceived themselves.
And I agree with mz, your title seems to be saying something, as opposed to asking.
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Peace Amanda,
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,
if this is true then making something to appear... as something that it is not... is deception.
Does God decieve? or is this an issue of translation?Who is the deception intended towards? It is a group of hate filled murderers who are screaming for the death of Christ and foaming at the mouth at the thought of his suffering.
As for the truth of the matter (that he was not killed) it was made clear to the faithful by them witnessing Christ after his alleged death...As for later generations, the Lord has made the truth clear revealing the very verse you have quoted.
God only decives those who have already decieved themselves...
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Peace be upon you,
A metaphorical stroy was given and the people took it literally. No, there was no crucifiction, only a symbolic lesson. Just like there was no splitting of the sea or people being changed into literal apes and swine, only a symbolic story.
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peace perspective,
Have you ever seen bad people instantly turning into apes, let alone despicable ones? I havn't. So why should I believe a book that says God turned people into apes? why should I accept that blindly when the same book tells me not to?
I think that instead of just accepting whatever the quran says to be true just because we believe in it's "divinity," we should look at it critically and think about what the passage could mean. Now that we realize the possibility of it being symbolic, we can look for a deeper meaning that we didn't see before. If it doesn't work out, then maybe we should take it literally. It's all about looking at all the possibilities and following the best one. We have to keep evolving.1024 The parable of the life of this world is but that of rain which We send down from the sky, and which is absorbed by the plants of the earth whereof men and animals draw nourishment, until -when the earth has assumed its artful adornment and has been embellished, and they who dwell on it believe that they have gained mastery over it -there comes down upon it Our judgment, by night or by day, and We cause it to become a field mown down, as if there had been no yesterday. Thus clearly do We spell out these messages unto people who think!
The message is for those who think! not for those who blindly accept what is given to them. -
Peace
Talking about metaphors and deception when the Israeli Jets were bombing Lebanon ,the Hizbollah out of its honesty marked all its locations clearly for the Israel pilots to see that they are Hizbollah locations , so they can bomb them with accuracy ( I said, this is only a metaphor, I dont think you can get someone stupid enough to do that. ) . But instead they chose to deceive the Isrealis by different means so they can not find out the target locations. Any body would have. In war there is deception by withdrawing, trapping your enemy. When some one comes to kill you, naturally if you can not fight, you choose to hide. Call it deception. Instead you can scream , ? Hey boys , I am here?. That most probably will be your last scream.
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I wish the title can be changed to ?Is God stupid ??
Hmmmm...
The title gives me the impression of someone very weak in their faith to God.
With this in mind and without wishing to place any judgement on our dear sister, perhaps it is a good idea to have a more respectable title for the thread such as 'Deception in the Qur'an' rather than one that even puts such a negative word next to the name God.
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And for their saying We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah,
As we can see, the Jews boasted they have killed Jesus. According to them, I think, the fact God did not save him was a proof he was not a messenger.
So, a possible explanation would be that, what God is denying in this verse in not the fact the jews killed Jesus on the cross, but the consequence they make of it, i.e. their belief that Jesus was not a messenger.
Assuming Jesus had been slain by the jews, the following verse applies
And do not say of those who are killed in the sake of God that they are dead; no, they are alive but you do not perceive.
So, I think God Is only putting in application this verse when he says
and they killed him not, nor did they cause his death on the cross, but he was made to appear to them as such. And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for certain Nay, Allah exalted him in His presence. And Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.
NB This translation is from Muhammad Ali (cf http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch004-e.pdf)
See also
God said ?O Jesus, I will seize you, and raise you to Me, and cleanse you of those who have rejected, and make those who have followed you above those who rejected until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me is your return so I will judge between all of you in what it was that you disputed.?
In these 2 verses, God emphasizes on the fact Jesus did not die but by God?s permission.
The following verse confirms some messengers may have been killed
We have taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and We sent to them Our messengers. Every time a messenger came to them with what their souls did not desire, a group of them they would reject, and a group of them they would kill.
Any feedback appreciated
Peace
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Peace be upon you,
None of us was present during this event, so are we to GUESS at what happenned? The only other altenative is to understand it as a metaphor, and seeing how people today still take metaphors as truth, thus causing war and strife, we can see that it was the same for all times. When we dont reflect enough and settle for belief of knowledge, then we take the metpahors as literal and believe that seas are split and sticks turn to snakes, etc.
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Peace Idolfree
Shouldn?t we believe that there was someone called Jesus who lived 2000 years ago in Jerusalem who calle himself the messiah and related to him there was an incident of crucifixion or are we to believe that this whole story is a made up metaphor. Do you think that believing this as a true incident is shirk ?
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Peace be upon you Warner,
Shouldn?t we believe that there was someone called Jesus who lived 2000 years ago in Jerusalem who calle himself the messiah and related to him there was an incident of crucifixion
Absolutely not. How could we possibly verify something like that? How could we verify that there was a man who split the sea, or made sticks turn into snakes? Or a man who made the blind to see? The God does not give us stories that would be far fetched if a man gave us the same story today, and expect us just to believe it. We are responsible for our eyes, ears, intelligence, etc. Is blind belief the same as being responsible for our eyes, ears and intelligence?
or are we to believe that this whole story is a made up metaphor.
Yes, it is a metaphorical story that has been used since the beginning of recorded history, just different names and sometimes slight variations, but the message is the same. Jesus represents the WILL of man.
Do you think that believing this as a true incident is shirk ?
I think believing in tha which cant be verified is unwise. However, that which CAN be verified is teh LESSON tha comes from the metaphor, because we can implement it in our lives and experience the truth of the lesson. This way, we can all be "Jesus", or "Musa", etc. We all have these "messengers" in our spirits.
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Peace Idolfree
On a lighter note,
If these are made up by man ? metaphorical story that has been used since the beginning of recorded history? as the ?Jack and the bean stalk? and ?The Duck which lays the golden eggs? , why is the Quraan changing the complete story line saying that Jesus was not crucified (? and now, where is that metaphor , again ? ), it is just like some one suddenly saying there was Jack minus the bean stalk . So if Bibles metaphor is about Will Of man and then Quraan refutes this saying there is no Will then what is the Big metaphor.
Also no body is calling Jack a messenger of God with or without the bean stalk although the story is probably around since recorded history?
Also are you saying there was no messengers, no scriptures or maybe no god and that man is trying to figure everything on his own with metaphorical stories since the beginning of history?
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salam alykum,
Verse 4157 states
That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah';- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
My question is this
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,
if this is true then making something to appear... as something that it is not... is deception.
Does God decieve? or is this an issue of translation?
any who has knowledge about this topic please share?
Amanda
Salam alaikum.
Chapter 4/157 And their saying is that "Surely we have killed Al-Maseeh Eesa, the son of Maryam, the messenger of Allah". And they did not kill him and they did not crucify him but it was shubbi-ha/similar/resembling to it for them...
It was Allah who gave death to Eesa/Jesus (355). But the rejectors were also planning to kill him (354). And when Allah made him die(355), it appeared to the rejectors as if it was their planning that killed Eesa i.e it resembled as if their plan had worked.
For example, if person A shoots at person B, and if B dies before the bullet even hits him, then to A it will appear as if it was his bullet that killed B. i.e it was shubbi-ha/similar/resembling to what A had intended to do.
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Salaam
Absolutely not. How could we possibly verify something like that? How could we verify that there was a man who split the sea, or made sticks turn into snakes? Or a man who made the blind to see?
We do not need to verify this story because God is telling it. This is part of the "ghaib unseen" we should believe in and part of the trust we have in God.
As for the verse itself, I believe that it means that "They did not murder him, nor did they kill him by crucifixion, but it seemed to them as if they had", since crucifixion is intended to kill a person. The story as told in the Bible confirms this. Those who read the bible did not even notice their own story which says that
"..and on the next day, Jesus was calling for water; his family and students raised a long stick to him with a piece of cloth immersed in vinegar. Jesus then died when he sucked in it, and they shouted to the Roman soldier "He is dead! He is dead!" The soldier picked his side with a spear untill his blood ran red, then unmounted him from the cross and they took him away"What they did not realize or noticed in this story is the following
- Students and family were prepared with a plan. Why would you give a thirsty person vinegar? It seems they had a kind of "anesthetic substance" not vinegar.
- Why would Jesus die after sucking from "vinegar"? I think he passed out.
- The soldier picked him to see if he moved or jumped, i.e to confirm his death. He did not jump of course, because he was under anesthesia. They did not know then that blood would not flow from a dead body.
So they are decieving themselves, as Layth put it.
Jesus lived in hiding afterwards so that he won't be klled together with his accomplices.
The Qur'aan confirms that Jesus lived untill old age and died naturally. -
Peace Samia,
We do not need to verify this story because God is telling it. This is part of the "ghaib unseen" we should believe in and part of the trust we have in God.
No God is not telling it. It is written in a book.
The only reason you believe that story is because you believe the book is God's words. If you didn't believe that, you'd say the story was a bunch of bull crap.
I have trust in God, but I don't necessarily have trust in a book.
So you can either believe stuff blindly or actually look for a verifiable explanation.
People really need to start seperating God and the Quran. I mean, read it without the preconcieved idea that it is from God. Every word that we read of it, we should look at it skeptically.
If it is from God, then let me tell you that God would never give us a book that makes no sense and comes without PROOF. A book that says "if you have trust in God, you will believe everything this book says or else go to hell."
God can't be that stupid.
