Migration - The 'KEY' To A GOD Alone Society???
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Salaam Jaxal,
Your latter statement is a tangent. MQ was not talking about Jesus returning. He is talking about a rasool to come. One or more at one time if that is the case.
So please, stop stressing your Jesus returning assumption because no one here BUT YOU is talking about such things.
Joe
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SaLaM Joe
mquran is talking about a messenger / rasool. And it this is different for the beliefs of OTHER people that Jesus will be comming bcoz.....?? Maybe he is not specifically talking about Jesus, but when he says messenger/rasool, who does it leave that is remotely considered to come back ? I know of only Jesus that is remotely considered that he will be comming back. There is no other messenger. Has God said there will be a messenger comming? Who chooses a messenger? humans? or God? There have been many acclaimed messengers like RK, Ilijah or Shareef. Do you beleive they are messengers? If a person says "i believe a messenger will come " i think it is safe to assume that he is not talking about some Tom, Dick and Harry. There are only one kind of messengers. Messengers of God. God chooses them. And i dont beleive any messenger is returning.
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Salaam Jaxal,
(1) - Nowhere does Allah say there will be no more rusul.
- I want you to prove otherwise.
(2) Allah states that to each people rusul are sent.
- I want you to prove otherwise.
who does it leave that is remotely considered to come back ?
NO ONE IS COMING BACK!!!! My goodness man, are you paying attention?
Anyone who takes up the station of rasool will be such a one.
Joe
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SaLaM Joe
I dont think YOU are paying attention to what i am saying. Stop jumping to conclusions. To make it easier, i will use points
1] I DO NOT believe nor disbelieve that Jesus is comming back. I havent made up my mind on this matter yet. But nevertheless, i am NOT saying that he will come back.
2] There is only ONE kind of messenger. Messenger of God.
3] God chooses messengers. Not humans.
So even IF a messenger came, it is not up to us to choose him/her to be a mesenger. That is IF a messenger is sent. IF being the important word. Only God sends messenger.
(1) - Nowhere does Allah say there will be no more rusul.
- I want you to prove otherwise.
Well see this is the thing. A messenger is someone who is given a book. Like Moses was given the Torah. Jesus was given the Bible and Prophet Muhammad was given the Quran. Now, i dont find anywhere in the Quran which states that there wont be no more messengers BUT Quran DOES states that there wont be anymore more prophets/nabi . Hence, why i am still undecided on the whole issue of Jesus not comming back. And that is why i said that a remote possibility that Jesus is comming back. I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the statment. Im simply stating it.
(2) Allah states that to each people rusul are sent.
- I want you to prove otherwise.
I agree with you on this. Our messenger/rusool has been sent. I.E Prophet Muhammad.
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Salaamun alaikum,
MajidahQuran is an ongoing Scripture so the messenger can be any messenger it depends which centuary we live in.
Yes, otherwise many parts of the Quran will be invalid. This is a ridiculous notion.
JaxalThere are people who believe that Prophet Isa will come back. Are u expecting Jesus to come back and lead this country? Comon.
As Joe says, I don't believe in such a thing. I do however expect all messengers to follow the way of Isa as well.
How many kinds of messengers are we talking about that we are suddenly confused on the defination of the word? When i speak of a messenger i mean the messenger of God like Prophet Muhammad or Jesus or Moses. Im not calling some tom dick and harry a messenger.
These quranic personalities are meant to be copied. So in effect, the copiers become messengers themselves. Don't expect the Quran to speak of an 'age of messengers'.
So even IF a messenger came, it is not up to us to choose him/her to be a mesenger. That is IF a messenger is sent. IF being the important word. Only God sends messenger.
Agreed. God sends a messenger but nowhere does God close the door of messengership.
Well see this is the thing. A messenger is someone who is given a book. Like Moses was given the Torah. Jesus was given the Bible and Prophet Muhammad was given the Quran. Now, i dont find anywhere in the Quran which states that there wont be no more messengers BUT Quran DOES states that there wont be anymore more prophets/nabi . Hence, why i am still undecided on the whole issue of Jesus not comming back. And that is why i said that a remote possibility that Jesus is comming back. I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the statment. Im simply stating it.
Nowhere does the Quran say a messenger brings a NEW BOOK. A 'new book' isnt a quranic concept.
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Peace
Im sorry Jaxal, but Jesus did not come with the Bible. thats a creation by the Council of Niecea, a roman sun worshipping emporer, and old manuscripts based mainly on early fertility cults, who used amanita muscaira, and psilocybin mushrooms to reach God.
Im a suporter of the idea that messengers will come. What do you think was Jesus and Mohammad? people who fell out of the sky and was incredibly holy? no they where Joeschmoe untill people recognised them as messengers.
However, i am against the founding of ANY government structure. If you need someone to tell you what is right and wrong, you have some serious issues.
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Salaam Jaxal,
I dont think YOU are paying attention to what i am saying.
Believe me, I am paying attention. Since you are not, and not even aware of what you were saying in some instances, then I invite you to re-read all the posts thus far.
1] I DO NOT believe nor disbelieve that Jesus is comming back. I havent made up my mind on this matter yet. But nevertheless, i am NOT saying that he will come back.
I do not care. This has got nothing to do with anything here. You're coming out of deep left field with this stuff.
2] There is only ONE kind of messenger. Messenger of God.
No there is not. Just as there is not just one kind of hadeeth, such as hadeeth of Muhammad. Just to keep on track here, we are talking about rusul and them being leaders. Not rusul being only rusul Allah or rusul being former rusul returned to lead us.
3] God chooses messengers. Not humans.
Still coming out of left field. I'm not sure where anyone said that WE must pick out Allah's envoys.
A messenger is someone who is given a book.
Allah has not sent bounded material from the sky to rusul.
Like Moses was given the Torah.
The quran does not approve of your assertion. Musa was given al-kitab and al-furqun.
Jesus was given the Bible and Prophet Muhammad was given the Quran.
The quran does not approve of your assertion. Isa was not given the Bible.
I agree with you on this. Our messenger/rusool has been sent. I.E Prophet Muhammad.
If I use your line of thought, then perhaps Noah should have been our rasool since he too is a member of the community holding onto the rope of Allah. No, Muhammad is not the rasool among us or sent to us.
Joe
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SaLaM mquran, Noah, Joe
mquran
As Joe says, I don't believe in such a thing. I do however expect all messengers to follow the way of Isa as well.
Agree with you.
These quranic personalities are meant to be copied. So in effect, the copiers become messengers themselves. Don't expect the Quran to speak of an 'age of messengers'.
Ah. So JUST someone is very knowledgable in the Quran then he/she is a messenger? Right.
A messenger is someone who is given a book. Book of God. Moses/musa was given the Torah. Jesus/Isa was given the gospel. And Prophet Muhammad was given the Quran/Reading/Message .
Nowhere does the Quran say a messenger brings a NEW BOOK. A 'new book' isnt a quranic concept.
Then i ask you to show me from the Quran where God calls someone a messenger but not gives him/her a book.
Noah
Im sorry Jaxal, but Jesus did not come with the Bible. thats a creation by the Council of Niecea, a roman sun worshipping emporer, and old manuscripts based mainly on early fertility cults, who used amanita muscaira, and psilocybin mushrooms to reach God.
I dont see the difference between the gospel and bible. But i will use the word gospel from now on to keep people from getting confused.
Im a suporter of the idea that messengers will come. What do you think was Jesus and Mohammad? people who fell out of the sky and was incredibly holy? no they where Joeschmoe untill people recognised them as messengers.
So do u believe that RK, Ilijah or Shareeef are messengers of God? They all claimed they are. Will you beleive them?
Joe
No there is not. Just as there is not just one kind of hadeeth, such as hadeeth of Muhammad. Just to keep on track here, we are talking about rusul and them being leaders. Not rusul being only rusul Allah or rusul being former rusul returned to lead us.
Then i ask you what i ask mquran. Show me from the Quran where God calls someone a messenger but not gives him/her a book.
If I use your line of thought, then perhaps Noah should have been our rasool since he too is a member of the community holding onto the rope of Allah. No, Muhammad is not the rasool among us or sent to us.
Simply being a member of the community and holding to the rope of Allah dont make anyone a messenger/rusool. He/She has to be chosen by God and to be given a book. No tom dick and harry can stand up and become messengers simply by being members of community and holding steadfast to the rope of Allah. If thats the case, i know pleny messengers walking around.
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Salaam Jaxal,
Simply being a member of the community and holding to the rope of Allah dont make anyone a messenger/rusool.
The context of what I wrote was - "If Muhammad is our Messenger than why not one such as Noah".
I was not saying what makes one a messenger. I hope I am clear with you now.
He/She has to be chosen by God and to be given a book.
I will ask you one last time if Allah sends parchment down from the sky in the hands of his chosen rusul. Does He?
If thats the case, i know pleny messengers walking around.
I think the case with you as of this moment is your lack of perception.
Joe
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SaLaM Joe
The reason Prophet Muhammad was a messenger/rusool and not Noah becoz Noah wasnt given a book. Prophet Muhammad was. How hard is that to understand?
I will ask you one last time if Allah sends parchment down from the sky in the hands of his chosen rusul. Does He?
How do you think the Torah, Gospe or the Quran was reveled? You think these BOOKS fell from the sky? or appeared out of a black magic hat? What kind of questions are you asking? You know very well how the books were revealed. ONLY messengers were given books. To be a messenger, you have to have the message. Apart from Moses/Musa, Jesus/Isa and Prophet Muhammad, who were given a book/message and called messenger/rusool?
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Salaam Jaxal,
The reason Prophet Muhammad was a messenger/rusool and not Noah becoz Noah wasnt given a book. Prophet Muhammad was. How hard is that to understand?
??? Dude get on track here. You have lost me here. Did you read my post?
What kind of questions are you asking?
Just answer my question from my previous post.
Joe
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SaLaM Joe
Lollllllllllll Just cut to the chase man. What is it that you want to say? That not every messenger will be a givena book? rather an oral revelation? And what if this messenger came to you? will you beleive him/her?
As for your question, Al Kitab by its defination means a book. A physical form. Not oral. So yes i do believe that Al Kitab is a book formate.
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Salaam Jaxal,
That not every messenger will be a givena book?
No I do not want to say this Jaxal.
{ I have a problem with your approach to discussing things. You're being awfully assertive to the point where you are even pushing your false assertions. When I do discuss things with you I feel that I'm talking to a hardcore Sunni or Shia even. }
I will say that rusul are sent with kitabun.
rather an oral revelation?
As far as I know you have thus far acclaimed to the revelation/wahi as an oral thing. If I am wrong please correct me.
And what if this messenger came to you? will you beleive him/her?
Which messenger and with what message? Your question is rather broad.
As for your question, Al Kitab by its defination means a book. A physical form. Not oral. So yes i do believe that Al Kitab is a book formate.
Your former answer was that alkitaab is an oral presentation to the rusul. Now you say that kitaab mean book .
So you believe alkitaab is a book in physical form, but you also say alkitaab is not a book dropped from the sky. Nor is it a physical book put into the heart . Can you explain this to me?
Joe
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SaLaM Joe
I have a problem with your approach to discussing things. You're being awfully assertive to the point where you are even pushing your false assertions. When I do discuss things with you I feel that I'm talking to a hardcore Sunni or Shia even.
I didnt know you felt that way Joe shock . Nevertheless, its wrong.
All the scripture were given in oral form. The jews believe that one part was given to them in a written form. As do the Quran. But im still researing on that. But yes, all the scriptures , i believe, came down as oral revelation. But in a bigger picture, they were a book. Infact, God says in the beginning that its a book/scripture
This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.
Notice how God says book/scripture and not an oral revelation. So it shouldnt be hard to understand that from God -> (oral) -> messenger/rusool. Then Messenger/rusool -> (kitab/book) -> mankind/nas.
Hope this explains.
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Salaamun alaikum Jaxal,
In my opinion, some of your beliefs come from Sunnism. This is why you're unable to quote even a single Quranic verse in this discussion. I will demonstrate my point below, inshaa Allah
So do u believe that RK, Ilijah or Shareeef are messengers of God? They all claimed they are. Will you beleive them?
The Quran tells us how to know whether people are messengers or not. Messengers will
- demonstrate al-kitaab
- render people growth
- teach people al-kitaab and al-hikmah
- distribute the profits
- lead us in our campaign.
Did these characters do these things?
Simply being a member of the community and holding to the rope of Allah dont make anyone a messenger/rusool. He/She has to be chosen by God and to be given a book. No tom dick and harry can stand up and become messengers simply by being members of community and holding steadfast to the rope of Allah. If thats the case, i know pleny messengers walking around.
Given 'A BOOK'? False. All rusul teach 'THE BOOK', the same essential teachings. No 'new book' is ever mentioned in al-quraan.
The reason Prophet Muhammad was a messenger/rusool and not Noah becoz Noah wasnt given a book. Prophet Muhammad was. How hard is that to understand?
But he was. See 6/84-89. Noah is mentioned as one who was given 'al-kitaab' . So once again, you have contradicted al-quraan.
How do you think the Torah, Gospe or the Quran was reveled? You think these BOOKS fell from the sky? or appeared out of a black magic hat? What kind of questions are you asking? You know very well how the books were revealed. ONLY messengers were given books. To be a messenger, you have to have the message. Apart from Moses/Musa, Jesus/Isa and Prophet Muhammad, who were given a book/message and called messenger/rusool?
Again, False. Only messengers were given books? Please see 2/213 , an-NABIYEEN (sunnis call 'the prophets') were given AL-KITAB bil haqq. THis is what I mean, Jaxal. What's the point of being quranic if you constantly go against quranic concepts.
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Salaam all,
16.36
We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry." Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.Now the question also is - what is a community ? For sure i don't feel like being part of the community living at the prophets mohamed time... roll
But may be i need more light on the notion ?
Elke