Migration - The 'KEY' To A GOD Alone Society???
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Salaam Elke,
Now the question also is - what is a community ? For sure i don't feel like being part of the community living at the prophets mohamed time
You're not and neither am I. The word used for community is 'umma', a socio-economic entity (6/38 tells us other creatures are in ummas too). Mohamed ibn Abdullah had his own umma which died out long ago.
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SaLaM mquran
In my opinion, some of your beliefs come from Sunnism.
I am supprised at that mquran. Why would u say such a thing? Thats just whack! And the reason I dont quote a quranic verse is becoz i dont see any need to do so. But i have and i will, where appropriate.
The Quran tells us how to know whether people are messengers or not. Messengers will
- demonstrate al-kitaab
- render people growth
- teach people al-kitaab and al-hikmah
- distribute the profits
- lead us in our campaign.
So, if i came to you, and did all those things, will u believe that i am a messenger? Will you mquran?
But he was. See 6/84-89. Noah is mentioned as one who was given 'al-kitaab' . So once again, you have contradicted al-quraan.
I do not see how that verse applys to Noah. But this has made me wondered, do those books compare to he likes of the Torah, Gospel and Quran?
Only messengers were given books? Please see 2/213
That verse does not mentions anywhere that those prophet/nabi were given a book. And in anycase, messengers/rusool are prophets/nabis too. So what you are saying is wrong and dont hold much weight.
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Salaamun alaikum,
JaxalI am supprised at that mquran. Why would u say such a thing? Thats just whack! And the reason I dont quote a quranic verse is becoz i dont see any need to do so. But i have and i will, where appropriate.
No, the reason why you don't quote the Quran, dear brother, is because it doesn't support your beliefs. Sunnism does. Sunnism and its utterly unquranic notion that Musa recieved the Torah.
So, if i came to you, and did all those things, will u believe that i am a messenger? Will you mquran?
ANYONE who fulfils the Quranic criteria of messengership is acceptable to me. However, I'd be very careful about you because you seem to have an aversion to the Quran. Given that, if you suddenly came and said 'serve God', I'd be very suspicious indeed.
I do not see how that verse applys to Noah. But this has made me wondered, do those books compare to he likes of the Torah, Gospel and Quran?
You don't see how it applies to Nuh? Lets see for a sec, ok
We gave him Isaac and Jacob all (three) guided and before him, We guided NOAH, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron thus do We reward those who do good And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias all in the ranks of the righteousAnd Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot and to all We gave favour above the nations. (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way. This is the guidance of Allah He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them. These were the men to whom We gave the Book, and authority, and prophethood if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not. (6/84-89)
If you can please read carefully, there's no such thing as 'those books'. This is why Im saying the Quran means nothing to you. There's only one 'THE BOOK' and all these personalities recieved it.
That verse does not mentions anywhere that those prophet/nabi were given a book. And in anycase, messengers/rusool are prophets/nabis too. So what you are saying is wrong and dont hold much weight
]I have no idea what Quran you're reading but for the sake of your convenience, here's the verse
Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent AN-NABIYEEN with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent THE BOOK IN TRUTH, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed (2/213)Look, if you don't consider the Quran to be evidence, will you please say so now. Its rather a waste of time if we dont have the same criteria. Thank you.
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SaLaM mquran
No, the reason why you don't quote the Quran, dear brother, is because it doesn't support your beliefs. Sunnism does. Sunnism and its utterly unquranic notion that Musa recieved the Torah.
Oh so you know me now huh? You think you know me so good that you know the true reasons behind my actions?
ANYONE who fulfils the Quranic criteria of messengership is acceptable to me.
Obviously then you and I have a difference of opinion here. For you, any tom dick and harry can be a messenger. Not for me.
You don't see how it applies to Nuh? Lets see for a sec, ok
Actuallly, you have given me something to think about here. Looks like i will have re-evaluate my position on this. So for now, i am not commenting on this.
I have no idea what Quran you're reading but for the sake of your convenience, here's the verse
Read my reply again. I am not supprised at all with that verse. Every messenger/rasool is a proophet/nabi.
We do have the same criteria, only a different understanding.
Your welcome wink -
Read my reply again. I am not supprised at all with that verse. Every messenger/rasool is a proophet/nabi.
We do have the same criteria, only a different understanding.
Every messenger is a nabi ? Please DON'T provide quranic evidence for this. Give me as much hadith as possible as well as opinions from Sunni priests. The more hadith and opinions you give, the more correct your viewpoint is.
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It seems you don't understand how it works. If you make a claim, then (if and only if you're quranic, which you're not) YOU provide evidence to back up the claim. The Quran never made such a claim. You're asserting it so the burden of proof is on you. Of course , you can follow the sunna of the sunnis and totally not prove it at all. Thats always an option.
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SaLaM mquran
Again, if you can show me that my understanding is wrong, i will happily correct myself. Why in the world would i have to live with a wrong understanding?? As far as the whole "burden of proof is on me goes", i have no need for you to agree with my belief. There are so many members on this forum and not everyone agree with each other on everything. That is the way of life. That is what makes us differnt from other sects. So, if you can show me why i am wrong, i WILL correct myself, AND i will thank you for it
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Salaam Jaxal,
I must agree with MQ here. It appears you are treading the path of sunnism under the guise of God or Quran alone. I say so because your claims rarely have their source from al-kitaab and because MQ clearly expounded how to determine a rasool. Yet you will not believe. A couple of years ago I posted the following article which may be of some use to you.
Muhammad was Allah?s Messenger . Being a Rasool, his task was to convey Allah?s Message to the people. But that was not the only thing he did. According to 2129, 2151, 3164, Rasool also performed at least the following three duties, in addition to conveying Allah?s Message to people
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TILAWAT-AYAAT
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TALEEM-e-KITAB-o-HIKMAT
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TAZKIYA
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TILAWAT-AYAAT
In Quran there are two different words which are usually used synonymously yet they have a subtle difference in the meanings. One is QIRAAT and the other is TILAWAT. QIRAAT means just ?recitation? or ?reading?. That is why the word QARI is used for those who recite Quran, such as Qari Abdul Basit. In the following verses, the word ?QIRAAT? has been used
007.204
YUSUFALI When the Qur'an is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace that ye may receive Mercy.
PICKTHAL And when the Qur'an is recited, give ear to it and pay heed, that ye may obtain mercy.
SHAKIR And when the Quran is recited, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.016.098
YUSUFALI When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the rejected one.
PICKTHAL And when thou recitest the Qur'an, seek refuge in Allah from Satan the outcast.
SHAKIR So when you recite the Quran, seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Shaitan,The word TILAWAT means more than mere ?reading? or ?recitation?. One important connotation of the word TILAWAT is ?to follow? as is clear from the following verse, where TALAAHA has been translated as ?follows him?.
091.002
YUSUFALI By the Moon as she follows him;
PICKTHAL And the moon when she followeth him,
SHAKIR And the moon when it follows the sun,According to the above, we can say that QIRAAT is ?recitation? or ?reading? but in comparison to QIRAAT, TILAWAT is not just recitation but also ?to follow? what is recited. While TILAWAT carries the meaning of QIRAAT, QIRAAT does not carry the meanings of TILAWAT.
Allah has mentioned one of the duty of Rasool as to do TILAWAT of His AYAT, which means that Rasool, not only recites Allah?s verses before people but also practically ?follows? Allah?s verses before/in front of people to demonstrate that the verses are not merely a theoretical thing just to be read or recited but a practical and practicable guidance.
By YATLOO ALAIHIM AYATIHI, one?s mind might think that ALA here means ?on or over?. Although ?on or over? is one of the meanings of ALA but ALA also means ?before/in front of?, as is clear from the following verse.
020.039
SHAKIR Saying Put him into a chest, then cast it down into the river, then the river shall throw him on the shore; there shall take him up one who is an enemy to Me and enemy to him, and I cast down upon you love from Me, and that you might be brought up before My eyes;From the above, we can summarize that one of the duties of Rasool is to recite and practically follow the verses of Allah in front of people, to demonstrate that Allah?s verses are not just for recitation but also to be followed and that these verses are practicable and it is perfectly possible and viable for human beings to live a life according to Allah?s verses and that Rasool himself also recites and follows these verses.
- TALEEM-e-KITAB-o-HIKMAT
In addition to reciting and practically following himself, Rasool also teaches the wisdom of the book to the people. The word used here is TALEEM not KHABR. The word Rasool literally means the one who just conveys a Message. MUKHBAR is the one who informs but MUALLAM is the one who teaches. As a MUALLAM, Rasool makes sure that the Book of Allah does not only reach people but it is PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD as well by the people.
Now here another misconception may come up that HIKMA is something different from KITAB. It is one and the same thing. Please read the following for details
- In 5/15, Quran says, that ?? there has come to you from Allah, NOOR WA KITAB?. If we assume that WA means AND then, we are led to the conclusion that there were three different/separate things revealed to Muhammad. 1. Kitab, 2. Hikma, 3. Noor.
If we say, KITAB is Quran, HIKMA is HADITH or SUNNA, then what is NOOR? Has anybody compiled NOOR as Quran and Hadith has been compiled or the process has been neglected as the compilation of Hadith was neglected by the prophet himself, and the four rightly guided caliphs. We cannot say that this NOOR is something intangible because in 7/157, Allah says, ??Follow the NOOR that has been sent down with him (the prophet)??. So NOOR is something that needs to be followed. It has to be tangible, compiled and comprehensible. Those who say KITAB and HIKMA are two separate things they should answer what and where is NOOR, ?
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In Arabic language, AND is not the only meaning of WA. WA can be used in different meanings. I shall bring forward only the two relevant. One use of WA is as WA-E-ATIFA, which can be translated as AND, and another use of WA is as WA-E-TAFSEERI, which can be translated as THAT IS . So in above mentioned verses, where KITAB WAL HIMAH or NOOR WA KITAB has been used, WA does not mean AND, it means, THAT IS . If this little linguistic lesson is not enough, please go on reading what follows.
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See 2/231, "Remember God?s blessings upon you, and what He sent down to you of the ?Al-Ketab? WAL-Hekmah? to enlighten you with IT." 2231
The word ?bihee? (with it) that appear at the end of the verse, is in the singular mode, in other words it describes one thing and not two. For that reason the words ?Al-Hekmah? and ?Al-Ketab? must denote one thing and not two, unless of course God is making grammatical mistakes!
If the words ?Al-Hekmah? and ?Al-Ketab? really referred to the Quran and the Sunna, then the verse should grammatically end with the word ?bihima? (with them), which is the plural mode of ?bihee?.
- See 42/52
?And thus have We, by Our Command, sent inspiration to thee thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and what was Faith; but We have made the (Qur'an) a Light , wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily thou dost guide (men) to the Straight Way,-?
In 42/52, it can be seen that Quran itself is NOOR. We cannot say that NOOR WA KITAB are different things. KITAAB (QURAN) itself is NOOR.
- See 5/15-16 ?O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) NOOR WAL KITAB,- 5/15
With it Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight. 5/16?
The word ?bihee? (with it) that appears after NOOR WAL KITAB, is in the singular mode, in other words it describes one thing and not two. For that reason the words NOOR WAL-KITAB must denote one thing and not two, unless of course God is making grammatical mistakes!
- In 10/1 and 31/2, Quran is described as KITAB-E-HAKEEM. The word HIKMA is being used as an adjective of KITAB. An adjective is a word that adds something to the meaning of a noun or pronoun or explains a noun or pronoun. See also
"Y.S., and the Quran Al-Hakim" 361-2
"This is what We recite to you of the ?Ayat? and the ?Zekr Al-Hakim" 358
It can be seen that HIKMA is not separated from Quran. It is but a characteristic feature of Quran.
- The same word ?Al-Hekmah? is used in the Quran in connection with prophets and messengers who lived before the time of Muhammad. Obviously before Muhammad lived, his Sunna did not exist. Thus to say that ?Al-Hekmah? means Sunna?t Muhammad is incorrect. Consider the following verses
In 381, God is telling us that all the Prophets are given the book and Hekmah (Wisdom). All these Prophets did not give the hadiths and sunna of Muhammed.
In 348 God is using the same term He used for Muhammed, telling us that he gave Jesus, the book and Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
In 2251, God is telling us that he gave the Hekmah (Wisdom) to David, it is not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
In 454, God is telling us He gave Abraham's family the scripture and Hekmah (wisdom). This was not muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
In 5110, again God is reminding us that he gave Jesus the book and the Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
- In 1739 God Almighty, the author of the Quran Himself explains what the word hekmah (wisdom) means, so no one can claim any thing different.
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearings, the eyesight, and the brain and you are responsible for using them. You shall not walk proudly on earth-you cannot bore through the earth, nor can you be as tall as the mountains. All bad behavior is condemned by your Lord. THIS IS SOME OF THE WISDOM inspired to you by your Lord. You shall not set up another god beside God, lest you end up in Gehena, blamed and defeated. " 1736-39
Here, God is telling us that the wisdom is what is included in the Quran.
- TAZKIYA
In addition to TILAWAT-e-AYAT and TALEEM-e-KITAAB-o-HIKMAT, Rasool does TAZKIYA of the people.
TAZKIYA is usually considered as purification, which it is not. In 2/232, 9/103 TAHAARAT and TAZKIYA both are used. Purification is TAHAARAT, and TAZKIYA is to grow or develop as is clear from the following verse
PICKTHAL He is indeed successful who causeth it to grow,
In today?s terminology TAZKIYA is personal development or human resource development, i.e. to develop the potentialities of people through teaching, training, etc.
Summary
The Rasool performed at least three other tasks, in addition to just conveying Allah?s Message to people.
- TILAWAT-e-AYAAT
The Rasool not just recited Allah?s verses to people but also practically followed in front of them to demonstrate that Allah?s verses are not just for recitation but also to be followed and that these verses are practicable and it is perfectly possible and viable for human beings to live a life according to Allah?s verses and that the Rasool himself also recites and follows these verses.
- TALEEM-e-KITAB-o-HIKMAT
The Rasool not only himself recited and followed Allah?s verses but he used to teach the wisdom of the Book to people to make sure that they understand it properly
- TAZIKIYA
The Rasool also did the human resource development did, i.e.
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We need to recite and follow the verses of Allah ourselves
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We need to teach others the wisdom of the Book after understanding ourselves, first
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We need to develop people that would play a key role in implementing Islam
Joe
And a man came running from the farthest part of the city, saying "O my people, follow the messengers. Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided."
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Salaamun alaikum Joe,
Good job with this article, brother. Thanks a lot for this. If you havent done so already, I suggest you look at chapter 3 for a more 'campaign-related' role of ar-rasool. This ar-rasool guy is really the personification of the movement, brother.
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peace Joe,
Nice article.
I think wisdom/hikmah represents the things not explicitly contained in the scripture. For example, its a fact 'al quran' doesn't mention guidance for every single situation possible, thus how do we know what to do in a situation not explicitly mentioned? Well, any student of the scripture will know that 'al quran' promotes a certain mindset, ways of thinking, characteristics, qualities etc. and I believe this is the hikmah/wisdom contained therein. Adopting this mindset, can provide guidance for all situations. Of course, this would be for the mumineen only.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum Wakas,
Im not sure how u arrived at that point. al-kitaab is clearly al-hikmah according to 2/231 and al-quraan is clearly the detalling of al-kitaab, in 10/37. So al-hikmah , being al-kitaab must have its textual expression in al-quraan.
what do u think?
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peace mq,
Let me clarify something first
Im not sure how u arrived at that point. al-kitaab is clearly al-hikmah according to 2/231 and al-quraan is clearly the detalling of al-kitaab, in 10/37.
al-kitab = al-hikmah
al-quran details al-kitab
Do you take al-kitab to mean the same thing in both of the above referenced signs? And is this meaning al-quran?
Wakas
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Salaam Wakas,
Do you take al-kitab to mean the same thing in both of the above referenced signs? And is this meaning al-quran?
Yeah man, I do. There's an 'al' there in 'al-kitaab' so yes, i take it to mean the same thing. And no, al-kitaab is NOT al-quraan. Al-quraan is the detailling of al-kitaab. Al-kitaab is the operating system, al-quraan is the manual. All nabiyeen brought al-kitaab but not al-quraan.
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peace mq,
I think you may have misunderstood me. Your point that al-hikmah has its "textual expression" in al-quran is one I agree with. Its in there.
What I'm saying is, I see hikmah as something deeper than the literal text. hikmah can be gained from the literal text but is more than the literal text. The meanings behind a story for example, and these meanings lead to adopting a certain mindset/character, or if you will 'hikmah / good judgement / wisdom'.Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
What I'm saying is, I see hikmah as something deeper than the literal text. hikmah can be gained from the literal text but is more than the literal text. The meanings behind a story for example, and these meanings lead to adopting a certain mindset/character, or if you will 'hikmah / good judgement / wisdom'.
I can't agree because al-kitaab is in detail (6/114) and obviously finds its detailed expression in al-quraan (since al-quran is tafseelul kitaab). Since al-kitaab is al-hikmaah, al-hikmaah must be fully detailed in al-quraan. 17/39 shows examples of al-hikmah.
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peace mq,
Firstly, I do not agree 'mufassalan' means detailed (see 7133). It means to clarify/distinguish, to make distinct.
But I'm not sure if this alters our discussion, because if I have understood you correctly, you are saying al-hikmah can only be extracted from the literal/actual text of al-quran. al-hikmah is nothing more than this.
This is where we disagree, I see al-hikmah in al-quran as a Gestalt concept, i.e. "the sum is greater than its parts". A tool that can be used for all situations, not just those explicitly mentioned in al-quran.For example, the story of Abraham (676-79) when he rejected a star/planet, moon and sun as his Lord. This is not just a story for those in the exact same situation as him, it is deeper, and potentially applicable to many situations (I'm sure you'll agree with that). That is what I mean.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum Wakas,
Firstly, I do not agree 'mufassalan' means detailed (see 7133). It means to clarify/distinguish, to make distinct
I disagree. 'Mubiin' means clarified or distinct.
But I'm not sure if this alters our discussion, because if I have understood you correctly, you are saying al-hikmah can only be extracted from the literal/actual text of al-quran. al-hikmah is nothing more than this.
This is where we disagree, I see al-hikmah in al-quran as a Gestalt concept, i.e. "the sum is greater than its parts". A tool that can be used for all situations, not just those explicitly mentioned in al-quran.Al-hikmah refers to the principles, Wakas. The principles are applicable in all situations but you cannot find anything which isn't already mentioned by al-quraan by way of principles.
For example, the story of Abraham (676-79) when he rejected a star/planet, moon and sun as his Lord. This is not just a story for those in the exact same situation as him, it is deeper, and potentially applicable to many situations (I'm sure you'll agree with that). That is what I mean.
Oh yes, but the sun, moon and planets are a constant archetypal symbolism. They must figure into the extrapolation into our realities.
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peace mq,
'mubiin' does not mean 'clarified' or 'distinct' (although stictly I said 'to make distinct').
mubiin means open/plain/clear/evident/manifest. This can be seen from its ~90 occurrences.
Al-hikmah refers to the principles, Wakas. The principles are applicable in all situations but you cannot find anything which isn't already mentioned by al-quraan by way of principles.
At the end of the day, what we are both saying boils down to the same approach.
Wakas
