Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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I did. read carefully wink
You can't CHANGE DIVINE IMMUATABLE LAWS, therefore my argument quran is anti-democractic.... but in your case you can just ignore the DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law wink
Regards,
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Salaam all
The discussion is not really about whether democracy is good or not (that can be seprate discussion).
The discussion was initiated by lottree with assumption that the Quran was anti democratic below is his original quote.Quran is anti-democratic. FULLSTOP!
Quran urges people to create a consultative body but its decisions are not binding to the leader.
The whole arguement was based on this elusive consultative body. Am I right that point has ben quitely shelved as no body has been able to give single reference to the Quran stating form a consultative body.
I would have thought heart of any democracy refers to consultative process. Yet this somehow has been construed as being anti democratic because apparently the decisions of consultation are not binding. Where this non binding stuff has come from is again another mystery. If you are going to ignore the decisions reached in consultation then why bother having consultation in the first place?Having individual laws does not make the Quran anti-democratic. Democracy is selection of a governing system. In this selection of a governing body, consultative body, party give it any name you wish. Each side will have policies which if they come into power will become LAW. Let us assume there is a Quran party which has policy that if people choose this party then for adultery there will be 100 lashes. Can someone explain to me how this is undemocratic. I will quote again
If people wish to choose a system which will follow the guidance given by the Quran and implement 100 lashes as advocated that is their choice, it is known as democracy. If on the other hand they decide thay do not wish to follow that path and select a system which does not advocate the above punishment they are free to do so, as there is no compulsion. This is also known as democracy
THE QURAN DOES NOT DICTATE HOW TO FORM A GOVERMENTAL SYSTEM. NO COMPULSION. NO COMPULSION. NO COMPULSION. NO COMPULSION.
I don't believe in last messengers. I believe a messenger is one under inspiration who practises the book, gives information about the book and faciliates growth. He's also the leader of the believers.
It might sound terribly intellectual but it does not takes us very far as how to run a given society or country.
If I understand the crux of your arguement (correct me if I am wrong) you believe that a messenger who practices the book will give us all the laws that are necessary to run a given country. Since even you yourself are having a great difficulty finding this messenger what are the rest of us suppose to do?So a person can, in an islamic domain, commit murder and say 'well, where i come from, we just jail murderers for 10 years and thats my deen and u cant force islam on me'. How would you respond to this guy?
??????? You yourself cannot decide punishment for your crimes, that is determined by the laws of the society you live in. If these laws are based on whatever principles then you will have to be punished accordingly. I do not know of any system, islamic or non islamic, which allows the individuals to have rules that an individual can decide punishment for their own crime.
Regards
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Salaamun alaikum Stilllearning,
The discussion is not really about whether democracy is good or not (that can be seprate discussion).
The discussion was initiated by lottree with assumption that the Quran was anti democratic below is his original quote.Quran is anti-democratic. FULLSTOP!
Quran urges people to create a consultative body but its decisions are not binding to the leader.
If democracy means 'unlimited legislative powers to the people', then LT is correct.
The whole arguement was based on this elusive consultative body. Am I right that point has ben quitely shelved as no body has been able to give single reference to the Quran stating form a consultative body.
I would have thought heart of any democracy refers to consultative process. Yet this somehow has been construed as being anti democratic because apparently the decisions of consultation are not binding. Where this non binding stuff has come from is again another mystery. If you are going to ignore the decisions reached in consultation then why bother having consultation in the first place?No. This is not why I would say al-quraan is anti-democratic. I say it's so because of the fact that our obedience to Allah is through hukumullah, Allah's laws. Allah's laws CANNOT be delegistlated. Therefore, no democracy exists.
Having individual laws does not make the Quran anti-democratic. Democracy is selection of a governing system. In this selection of a governing body, consultative body, party give it any name you wish. Each side will have policies which if they come into power will become LAW. Let us assume there is a Quran party which has policy that if people choose this party then for adultery there will be 100 lashes. Can someone explain to me how this is undemocratic. I will quote again
If people wish to choose a system which will follow the guidance given by the Quran and implement 100 lashes as advocated that is their choice, it is known as democracy. If on the other hand they decide thay do not wish to follow that path and select a system which does not advocate the above punishment they are free to do so, as there is no compulsion. This is also known as democracy
THE QURAN DOES NOT DICTATE HOW TO FORM A GOVERMENTAL SYSTEM. NO COMPULSION. NO COMPULSION. NO COMPULSION. NO COMPULSION.
Presumably this incident takes place within a domain. Lets call that domain 'x'. Can you please point out to me from al-quraan how 'x' should be won over to Islam?
I don't believe in last messengers. I believe a messenger is one under inspiration who practises the book, gives information about the book and faciliates growth. He's also the leader of the believers.
It might sound terribly intellectual but it does not takes us very far as how to run a given society or country.
If I understand the crux of your arguement (correct me if I am wrong) you believe that a messenger who practices the book will give us all the laws that are necessary to run a given country. Since even you yourself are having a great difficulty finding this messenger what are the rest of us suppose to do?The messenger may appoint committees for peripheral laws, its all up to him. You ask a fair question about finding the messenger but at the moment we are this discussing this in theory. How does al-quraan talk about governance. I have quite conclusively shown that al-quraan isn't a 'moral guidance' and it is kufr to seperate politics from religion (since neither domain exists in quranic thought, there is only deen).
So a person can, in an islamic domain, commit murder and say 'well, where i come from, we just jail murderers for 10 years and thats my deen and u cant force islam on me'. How would you respond to this guy?
??????? You yourself cannot decide punishment for your crimes, that is determined by the laws of the society you live in. If these laws are based on whatever principles then you will have to be punished accordingly. I do not know of any system, islamic or non islamic, which allows the individuals to have rules that an individual can decide punishment for their own crime.
So isn't that compulsion? You're telling the perpetrator, I dont care what YOU believe in but when you commit murder in OUR DOMAIN, you get the death penalty. That's what happens in all 'democracies' anyway. If youcome into the system, you live by its rules. If you don't, you pay the price.
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SaLaM LT
Oh LT wink . DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law for what? running a country? building time machine? how about making a ford mustang GT ? What is this DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law for?
Jaxal chap...IMMUTABLE DIVINE LAW means just that - IMMUTABLE. It can't be changed ever - example lashing for Adultery. But you say you can ignore the quran in this case. But you can't have DEMOCRACY and IMMUTABLE DIVINE LAWS...
Regards,
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SaLaM LT
I didnt ask 'What DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law means'. I asked 'What is the DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law for? See the difference? Is it
a] Building a time machine?
b] Running a country?
c] Building Ford Mustang GT Delux 2005 Red leather interior and Black exterior drool Loooolll
d] Finding out the ingredients of KFC?WHAT IS IT FOR?
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SaLaM LT
I didnt ask 'What DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law means'. I asked 'What is the DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law for? See the difference? Is it
Lashes for adultery for example - Thats a IMMUTABLE DIVINE LAW. You can't change that! But in your case you can just ignore the quran.
In democracy all laws can be changed.
Regards,
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SaLaM LT and KGB
Lashes for adultery for example - Thats a IMMUTABLE DIVINE LAW. You can't change that! But in your case you can just ignore the quran.
And out of everything, THAT is what the word of God is for? lashing? Comon LT you can do much better than that! looooolll you are loosing your touch, old chap wink
Jaxal takes what he likes and ignore rest of the message.
And you follow the Quran TO THE LETTER. Right.
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And out of everything, THAT is what the word of God is for? lashing? Comon LT you can do much better than that! looooolll you are loosing your touch, old chap
Salaam Jaxal
Say is clearly what you wanted to say. Do you believe that Lashes punishment for Adultery is not correct? This is what I understand. Correct me if I misunderstood what you said.
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SaLaM KGB
gain I don't understanding what you are saying.
If you dont understand, then read my reply again. God helps those who helps themselves rotfl rotfl rotfl
I can give you evidence of your hypocricy from your own posts.
KGB, think. Give me 10 reasons WHY i should care if you can prove im a hypocrite? Plz, take your time http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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Salaam Jaxal
Typical Jaxal. You are avioding it because you are not sure what about where majority of the members stand on Lashes punishment. You try to stick with majority of people on issues. Sign of a Hypocrite. You try to hide your ignorance and foolishness behind stupid faces when you yourself don't know what you are saying. Now you are free to post LOOLL in your next post.
What is my view on Lashes punishment? I support it even at present time.
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SaLaM KGB
See now you would think that maybe i care what you have to say about me. But really, i dont. D If that is what you think of me, then ok. Wrong, but ok... whatever makes you sleep better at night rotfl . Now, if your done, will you plz stop going off topic since me and LT have been at this for past 2 pages and i think im finally getting through to him. Right LT wink
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SaLaM KGB
Brother I feel sorry for you.
Yes well... life is unfair. Not much you can do expect from feeling sorry. Believe me.
*Back to LT
So LT, i hope in your next reply, you can tell me EXACTLY what the purpose of the DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law is? .... old chap wink
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SaLaM LT and KGB
Lashes for adultery for example - Thats a IMMUTABLE DIVINE LAW. You can't change that! But in your case you can just ignore the quran.
And out of everything, THAT is what the word of God is for? lashing? Comon LT you can do much better than that! looooolll you are loosing your touch, old chap wink
Jaxal do you not get this at all? IMMUTABLE DIVINE LAW can't be changed like lashing for adultery for example. In a DEMOCRACY laws can be changed...and I have said this so many times, I am hearing my own echo!!! Perhaps you need to digest that mountain of KFC you have eaten before you get a handle on this wink
Regards,
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SaLaM LT
LT, you really are losing it. wink . What you need to get a handle on is that NO ONE is arguing that the DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law be changed in any way, shape or form. NOT A SINGLE SOUL on this thread is arguing that. So i dont know why you are bringing this up. On the other hand, i am asking you WHAT IS THIS DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law FOR?. is the question THAT vague? Since im SUCH A NICE GUY, i will go ahead and break the question further.
DOES THIS DIVINE IMMUTABLE DIVINE law HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE RUNNING OF A COUNTRY?. There, i hope that is clear for you ... old chap wink
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Salaam
I am not sure where the discussion is going, we seem to have moved from consultative body to lashes to prove that Quran is antidemocratic.
I dont know of any democracy where people choose every individual policy. Let us assume in a given democratic country, a group of muslims form a Quran Party. One of the Quran partys policy, amongst many other, is that adultery is illegal and punishable by 100 lashes. If the people of that country decide that they want to select this party to govern them can anyone explain how this undemocratic. If they decide they do not want the Quran party there will be no lashes. However this does not stop people from obeying the Quran , if they still wish, they simply do not have to commit adultery.
Lashes issue is neither democratic or anti for that matter. Just another red herring for those who have failed to provide any reference from the Quran to prove their point that the quran is somehow against democracy.
regards