Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
-
peace
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
peace to you too
The thing is, hukmullah, God's laws penetrates all aspects of our existence. For example, while God didn't tell you how fast you can drive, He did tell you the value of human life. So you can adjust accordingly.
And what exactly is accordingly and who decides this?
That's on a personal level. When the Islamic dominion comes, the rasul will allocate responsibility to believers according to thier level of expertise
What happens until your rasul comes i.e what about today!
-
salaam
And if there were more prophets to come to govern mankind from time to time, where are the prophets who must have come from 570AD to 2005
List of names would be sufficent!
-
Peace,
are there any verses in Quran where God mentions future prophets arriving after prophet Mohammed?
You mean prophecies? I doubt it. Allah sends rusul and nabiyeen and never says that He will stop. Tis' the sunnah of Allah.
since there is a debate on 'seal of the prophets' of 3340, where else according to u are future prophets mentioned in Quran?
Again, none that I know of.
God surely wouldnt have missed mentioning if thats the case.
Of course not. Allah has already told us that He sends nabiyeen and rusul.
IN 434 Allah is clearly telling about the history before Prophet Mohammed.
Ah, I think I see where your interpretations may lie. Thus you shall not understand where I am coming from. Read the narrative of Moses if you must, all of it. The lessons for our guidance will be given therein. Maybe you will be able to grasp these lessons and then see where I have come from.
If you take it as a historical account than think of the significance of the belief of the rejectors and how that should waylay you from acting upon the same mistakes.
where is the mention of future prophets?
Again, Allah has said that He sends nabiyeen and rusul. Allah never says that this will stop.
Joe
-
Salaamun alaikum PM,
IN 434 Allah is clearly telling about the history before Prophet Mohammed
PM, how is al-quraan to be a book of guidance if its about stories of the past? Al-quraan categorically denies that its tales of the ancients (83/17) and that it a mentioning of us (21/10). The sunna of Allah doesn't change and so , despite people saying there are no more messengers, messengers will keep coming.
And if there were more prophets to come to govern mankind from time to time, where are the prophets who must have come from 570AD to 2005?
This is going into the field of history which can be distorted. We are to focus on our situation, here and now.
Thats what we are all doing. Thats what democracy is all about or atleast meant to be. We take guidance from Quran. we take the principles of righteousness, justice, honesty, sincereity, humility etc from God's message and implement these with a set of rules that can safeguard these values to the best in today's society.
In a democracy, tacit approval must be obtained from the majority. Would you care to seek the approval of humankind before serving Allah, brother?
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
al-quraan may not tell you what to call an instution, but certainly it tells you the ahkaam regarding institutions. For example, it tells you that the majority of people arent on sabeelilllah. Therefore, people who believe cannot trust them.
And Mquran, no offence meant, but Quran is not a dictionary to find definitions of all words. this is not the purpose of Quran. Its there to guide
Can you please tell me how al-quraan guides you if you don't know the meaning of its words? Al-quraan is in a set language and also offers principles of interpretation. And no offense taken.
-
Stillearning, if you'll answer this question first, I will address your point. I believe in reciprocity in discussions. Thank you
Excellent. Now the question, WHY is it ok to compel others to follow your law? Please read the operative word...WHY is it ok if they don't believe in it? Remember, in a democracy, FREEDOM is paramount. FREEDOM.
-
SaLaM PM
Jaxal, I wont say Quran is corrupted. No proof of that.And God has said He would safeguard the Quran Himself. agreed, interpretations have varied.
Sorry PM, but it HAS been altered and changed. Even if 1 letter has been added (which is not the case but MANY letters have been added), it makes the book corrupted. Quran has been changed and altered. It IS corrupted.
LT
Oh well....I blame myself for trying so hard
No. Blame yourself for trying so hard and still failing to grasp a simple sentence... old chap wink
The main argument argument that is being repeated over and over and over , without any basis what so ever, is that Allah sends the ruler to us. WE dont choose them. So... another question which i know will go unanswered but that is ok becoz it only cements the case against such absurdity that Quran is ant- democratic
In the last 1400 years, how many messengers have come who ruled their kingdom according to the Quran?
-
Hi Nabi,
You mean prophecies? I doubt it. Allah sends rusul and nabiyeen and never says that He will stop. Tis' the sunnah of Allah.
ok, where in Quran does Allah mention that more rusul/nabiyen are to come after prophet Mohammed from time to time, to govern the people on earth?
If its not mentioned, are u saying u r making an Assumption urself, becoz u dont agree on 'seal of the prophets' or Allah saying He had perfected the religion and He had completed His favour etc.
so, is 'more nabi/rusul to come' ur assumption?
And where are the prophets from 570 AD TO 2005 who should have come to the givern people on earth? absentees?
Peace Nabi, i just dont see it.Allah has already told us that He sends nabiyeen and rusul.
Where exactly has He said that?That more nabis/rusuls will come from time to time after prophet Mohammed? And who were the ones who supposedly came to govern from 570 AD to 2005?
If you take it as a historical account than think of the significance of the belief of the rejectors and how that should waylay you from acting upon the same mistakes.
What are u talking about? where is the prophet/nabi now that i need to accept? Are u saying I should accept a non exsistent prophet?
If Allah does send a prophet today or in future, it will be very evident and the messenger will have clear signs. But Allah has never mentioned in Quran that there are more messengers to come where as, there was mention of arrival of specific prophets in the earlier guidances such as torah, gospel etc and they came. -
Hi Mquran,
PM, how is al-quraan to be a book of guidance if its about stories of the past? Al-quraan categorically denies that its tales of the ancients (83/17) and that it a mentioning of us (21/10). The sunna of Allah doesn't change and so , despite people saying there are no more messengers, messengers will keep coming
In Quran, Allah narates the past, the present(570 AD), The future, and some general messages such as values etc. One can not single out a verse where Allah is narrating the past and apply it to the 'now'. We should see things as they are, and not how we want to see them.
Again, is that an assumption made by you that messengers will keep coming? coz Allah doesnt seem to have mentioned so in Quran.And if there were more prophets to come to govern mankind from time to time, where are the prophets who must have come from 570AD to 2005?
This is going into the field of history which can be distorted. We are to focus on our situation, here and now.
What is 'going into the field of history'? U claimed that Allah would send messengers to govern people from time to time. All I asked was, Where were the messengers who were supposed to arrive between 570 AD AND 2005? And since Quran was revealed in 570 AD, Are u saying it is history and We should not focus on it too and instead discuss 'here and now'?
Thats what we are all doing. Thats what democracy is all about or atleast meant to be. We take guidance from Quran. we take the principles of righteousness, justice, honesty, sincereity, humility etc from God's message and implement these with a set of rules that can safeguard these values to the best in today's society.
In a democracy, tacit approval must be obtained from the majority. Would you care to seek the approval of humankind before serving Allah, brother?
yes, approval from majority is required. And that apparently is to safeguard the very same principles mentioned in Quran such as honesty, justice, righteousness, humility, safety, etc. And are u saying the rules mentioned in the Quran are not for the betterment of mankind? If they are, then we are working on the same goal, arent we?
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
al-quraan may not tell you what to call an instution, but certainly it tells you the ahkaam regarding institutions. For example, it tells you that the majority of people arent on sabeelilllah. Therefore, people who believe cannot trust them.
Inappropriate answer
And Mquran, no offence meant, but Quran is not a dictionary to find definitions of all words. this is not the purpose of Quran. Its there to guide
Can you please tell me how al-quraan guides you if you don't know the meaning of its words? Al-quraan is in a set language and also offers principles of interpretation. And no offense taken.
Quran guides me by giving the message, by giving me the truth, by giving the faith , by giving me the strength to uphold the values mentioned in Quran. In Quran Allah tells us to strive to attain wisdom, knowledge and uphold good values. Thats how it guides me. And no, its purpose is not to be a dictionary. Its not there to spoonfeed us. Its there to guide.
And yeah, no more of this discussion on future messengers for me, coz its pointless.
anyways, Peace.
May Allah guide us all unto the right path and truth! -
Peace,
ok, where in Quran does Allah mention that more rusul/nabiyen are to come after prophet Mohammed from time to time, to govern the people on earth?
You're not getting me at all. You should be able to show that Allah said that he will stop sending rusul and nabiyeen and that there is a final one.
If its not mentioned, are u saying u r making an Assumption urself, becoz u dont agree on 'seal of the prophets' or Allah saying he had perfected the religion and He had completed His favour etc.
It does not need to be mentioned that more rusul will come because Allah has not said that He is stopping them from coming.
Even if you take khatem to mean seal, you must understand that a seal can be popped. Again I ask that you read the link provided below.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3000
so, is 'more nabi/rusul to come' ur assumption?
In my opinion yes, there will be more.
And where are the prophets from 570 AD TO 2005 who should have come to the givern people on earth? absentees?
I'm not sure who they are and when they may have come. Al-quran presents to us every aspect pertaining to the rasool that we should know. I do not see the need to worry about which rasool came at what time and making a list of names. As Jibreel has mentioned "And rusul we have mentioned to thee before and rusul We have not mentioned to thee."
Peace Nabi, i just dont see it.
You do not need to see it for it to be as such.
Where exactly has He said that?That more nabis/rusuls will come from time to time after prophet Mohammed?
There are many ayatin stating this. Allah sends rusul and has not said that He will stop.
What are u talking about?
I'm talking about how the rejectors believed that God will not send other rusul. From them you should derive a lesson.
where is the prophet/nabi now that i need to accept?
I do not know.
You do not need to accept or believe in such a nabiy or rasool should he appear .
If Allah does send a prophet today or in future, it will be very evident and the messenger will have clear signs.
Please describe to me these bayyinat you will know of? Could you explain your view on ayatin 2351-52?
Joe
-
Peace PM.
In Quran, Allah narates the past, the present(570 AD), The future, and some general messages such as values etc. One can not single out a verse where Allah is narrating the past and apply it to the 'now'. We should see things as they are, and not how we want to see them.
Again, is that an assumption made by you that messengers will keep coming? coz Allah doesnt seem to have mentioned so in Quran.Well, therein lies the difference in our world-views. You believe 'the present' is 570AD (actually, it should 610-632AD, the time Muhammad ibn Abdullah historically recieved revelation to his death) whereas I don't see evidence of that in al-quraan at all. Al-quraan is about now. It uses naaba'ul ghaib (unseen higher news) to explain to us our own situation. But hey-ho, that's how you look at it, its cool.
What is 'going into the field of history'? U claimed that Allah would send messengers to govern people from time to time. All I asked was, Where were the messengers who were supposed to arrive between 570 AD AND 2005? And since Quran was revealed in 570 AD, Are u saying it is history and We should not focus on it too and instead discuss 'here and now'?
I understand what you're asking but I live in the present. I don't believe in going into historical reports. For all I know, Bahaullah, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt could have been rusul. But I'm not going to assert that because history is not proof for me and nor is it for al-quraan.
yes, approval from majority is required. And that apparently is to safeguard the very same principles mentioned in Quran such as honesty, justice, righteousness, humility, safety, etc.
Ah i see. Well, I don't see it that way. I will serve Allah to the best of my ability regardless of what humankind thinks.
And are u saying the rules mentioned in the Quran are not for the betterment of mankind? If they are, then we are working on the same goal, arent we?
Ahkaam of Allah are there for human evolution, but the majority of HUMANKIND, according to ALLAH, are against his path. Therefore, to seek THIER approval is pointless, even kufr. Thier idea of betterment is different from al-quraan's idea.
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
al-quraan may not tell you what to call an instution, but certainly it tells you the ahkaam regarding institutions. For example, it tells you that the majority of people arent on sabeelilllah. Therefore, people who believe cannot trust them.
Inappropriate answer
Would you kindly elaborate on that?
Quran guides me by giving the message, by giving me the truth, by giving the faith , by giving me the strength to uphold the values mentioned in Quran. In Quran Allah tells us to strive to attain wisdom, knowledge and uphold good values. Thats how it guides me. And no, its purpose is not to be a dictionary. Its not there to spoonfeed us. Its there to guide.
How does it give you the truth? If you read it without understanding any Arabic, what does it give you? If you read the word 'salaat' as prayer, would the message be the same?
How does al-quraan guide if you don't know the words?!
And yeah, no more of this discussion on future messengers for me, coz its pointless.
anyways, Peace.I respect your decision. peace
-
Peace Mquran,
Well, therein lies the difference in our world-views. You believe 'the present' is 570AD (actually, it should 610-632AD, the time Muhammad ibn Abdullah historically recieved revelation to his death) whereas I don't see evidence of that in al-quraan at all. Al-quraan is about now. It uses naaba'ul ghaib (unseen higher news) to explain to us our own situation. But hey-ho, that's how you look at it, its cool.
Some of examples of Allah adressing the present(you are right 610-623 AD . the prophet was born on 570 AD)
519 O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)" But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.
7184 Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness he is but a perspicuous warner.
7188 Say "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."
3446 Say "I do admonish you on one point that ye do stand up before Allah,- (It may be) in pairs, or (it may be) singly,- and reflect (within yourselves) your Companion is not possessed he is no less than a warner to you, in face of a terrible Penalty."
3447 Say "No reward do I ask of you it is (all) in your interest my reward is only due from Allah. And He is witness to all things."
The above verses are clearly adressed to prophet Mohammed telling him, what to tell the people of then.
I did say some of the messages apply in a general sense to mankind in general.I understand what you're asking but I live in the present. I don't believe in going into historical reports. For all I know, Bahaullah, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt could have been rusul. But I'm not going to assert that because history is not proof for me and nor is it for al-quraan.
I live in the present too. But since we are talking of a revealation that arrived in 610-623 AD and since u r predicting messengers would keep coming from time to time to govern people,its only natural that i ask who they were who came after 623 AD.
Are u saying messengers of Allah dont need to uphold Quran and govern people? If no, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt dont seem to have.Nor have they followed the Rules mentioned in Quran. But didnt u say messengers will govern people by Quranic rules and ways?
I think they were divine good people coz they understood the true divine message.Ahkaam of Allah are there for human evolution, but the majority of HUMANKIND, according to ALLAH, are against his path. Therefore, to seek THIER approval is pointless, even kufr. Thier idea of betterment is different from al-quraan's idea.
Which system of democracy says its correct to be dishonest, to steal, to murder, to comit adultery, to rape etc?
Like u are, I am talking of the majority of the mankind who insist on good human values. Is that non-Quranic way? How are they against Allah's path when the majority are saying all that is wrong and should be stopped with adequate rules and regulations?Quran guides me by giving the message, by giving me the truth, by giving the faith , by giving me the strength to uphold the values mentioned in Quran. In Quran Allah tells us to strive to attain wisdom, knowledge and uphold good values. Thats how it guides me. And no, its purpose is not to be a dictionary. Its not there to spoonfeed us. Its there to guide.
How does it give you the truth? If you read it without understanding any Arabic, what does it give you? If you read the word 'salaat' as prayer, would the message be the same?
How does al-quraan guide if you don't know the words?!Knowing Quran, I think is not restricted only to those who understand arabic. The most important thing is to understand the message(from Quran in a language one understands), its essence and that I do, to the best of my ability and thus I know the truth of Quran.
Again, it guides me coz I understand the message through a language I understand. -
Hi Stilllearning,
Peace to u too!
Hi Jaxal,
why would u say Quran is corrupted? ur reasons,please.?
-
salaam
Stillearning, if you'll answer this question first, I will address your point. I believe in reciprocity in discussions. Thank you
Excellent. Now the question, WHY is it ok to compel others to follow your law? Please read the operative word...WHY is it ok if they don't believe in it? Remember, in a democracy, FREEDOM is paramount. FREEDOM.
Answer For any society to function it rquires rules and regulations. That as as far as I am aware has always been the case (unless you know differntly). I have given you number of examples of systems, democracy, communism etc, where these rules come from. As far as I am aware you follow these rules, unless you are an undiscovered criminal or live an uninhabited island all by yourself.
You do not believe in any of these system but keep repeating that they have to be given by the messenger so I will repeat the question who is this messenger on 10th Novemeber 2005 who will give us these rules. -
SaLaM stillearning
so I will repeat the question who is this messenger on 10th Novemeber 2005 who will give us these rules.
Or even better
Who was a messenger from God in the last 1400 years after Prophet Muhammad
PM
I would happily discuss with you on this thread. But basically, the reason i say Quran is corrupted is becoz i have seen two different copies of the Quran. One was old copy and the other one was new. The new one had additions to it. The thread in link has evidence for you to see and reach ur conclusion.
-
Jaxal,
i think u missed thisWho was a messenger from God in the last 1400 years after Prophet Muhammad
I understand what you're asking but I live in the present. I don't believe in going into historical reports. For all I know, Bahaullah, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt could have been rusul. But I'm not going to assert that because history is not proof for me and nor is it for al-quraan.
-
Jaxal,
What????? roll
-
SaLaM PM
My question was specific. WHO was the messenger in the past 1400 years. The quote in no way shape or form answer the question. Which means the poster didnt know the answer so he is waffeling. So as it stands, this is the case
WE DONT KNOW THE MESSENGER WAS IN THE PAST 1400 YEARS
WE DONT KNOW WHO THE MESSENGER IS NOWThat really widens the already present hole in the whole "We need messenger to run a country" theory.
-
oh alright.
since u had adressed it to me, was wondering what u were saying.
)
peace!yep, u see it.
-
Some of examples of Allah adressing the present(you are right 610-623 AD . the prophet was born on 570 AD)
519 O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)" But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.
7184 Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness he is but a perspicuous warner.
7188 Say "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."
3446 Say "I do admonish you on one point that ye do stand up before Allah,- (It may be) in pairs, or (it may be) singly,- and reflect (within yourselves) your Companion is not possessed he is no less than a warner to you, in face of a terrible Penalty."
3447 Say "No reward do I ask of you it is (all) in your interest my reward is only due from Allah. And He is witness to all things."
The above verses are clearly adressed to prophet Mohammed telling him, what to tell the people of then.
I did say some of the messages apply in a general sense to mankind in generalI'm sorry but I don't see that way. I see the above verses as applicable to all people in the prophetic mission. These are things we might say for example.
I live in the present too. But since we are talking of a revealation that arrived in 610-623 AD and since u r predicting messengers would keep coming from time to time to govern people,its only natural that i ask who they were who came after 623 AD.
Ask away and al-quraan answers you
O ye who believe! ASK NOT QUESTIONS about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the QURAN IS REVEALED, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those for God is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing (5/101)
Are u saying messengers of Allah dont need to uphold Quran and govern people? If no, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt dont seem to have.Nor have they followed the Rules mentioned in Quran. But didnt u say messengers will govern people by Quranic rules and ways?
I think they were divine good people coz they understood the true divine messageI don't believe messengers of Allah need to uphold al-quraan but al-kitaab (as 3/164 points out). Having said that, Im not asserting these people were messengers. Im ASKING you, how do you know they're not. I don't trust history. I trust my experiences and the book.
Which system of democracy says its correct to be dishonest, to steal, to murder, to comit adultery, to rape etc?
Like u are, I am talking of the majority of the mankind who insist on good human values. Is that non-Quranic way? How are they against Allah's path when the majority are saying all that is wrong and should be stopped with adequate rules and regulations?No system says its correct, but by instituting punishments not fitting the crime (e.g. life imprisonment for for murder instead of death penalty), we are ignoring the laws of Allah which is designed for human betterment.
Question do you accept Allah's verdict or a democratic verdict? If its the latter, that's fine but we should stop wasting our time with this conversation.
And btw, our society says fornication is ok.
Knowing Quran, I think is not restricted only to those who understand arabic. The most important thing is to understand the message(from Quran in a language one understands), its essence and that I do, to the best of my ability and thus I know the truth of Quran.
Again, it guides me coz I understand the message through a language I understandOk, so you do need to resort of language in order to understand the book. Therefore al-quraan needs to clarify its words. Without its internal mechanism, we can never be sure of its meaning.
Salaat is the best case in point of this, imho.