Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Peace Mquran,
Well, therein lies the difference in our world-views. You believe 'the present' is 570AD (actually, it should 610-632AD, the time Muhammad ibn Abdullah historically recieved revelation to his death) whereas I don't see evidence of that in al-quraan at all. Al-quraan is about now. It uses naaba'ul ghaib (unseen higher news) to explain to us our own situation. But hey-ho, that's how you look at it, its cool.
Some of examples of Allah adressing the present(you are right 610-623 AD . the prophet was born on 570 AD)
519 O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)" But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.
7184 Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness he is but a perspicuous warner.
7188 Say "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."
3446 Say "I do admonish you on one point that ye do stand up before Allah,- (It may be) in pairs, or (it may be) singly,- and reflect (within yourselves) your Companion is not possessed he is no less than a warner to you, in face of a terrible Penalty."
3447 Say "No reward do I ask of you it is (all) in your interest my reward is only due from Allah. And He is witness to all things."
The above verses are clearly adressed to prophet Mohammed telling him, what to tell the people of then.
I did say some of the messages apply in a general sense to mankind in general.I understand what you're asking but I live in the present. I don't believe in going into historical reports. For all I know, Bahaullah, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt could have been rusul. But I'm not going to assert that because history is not proof for me and nor is it for al-quraan.
I live in the present too. But since we are talking of a revealation that arrived in 610-623 AD and since u r predicting messengers would keep coming from time to time to govern people,its only natural that i ask who they were who came after 623 AD.
Are u saying messengers of Allah dont need to uphold Quran and govern people? If no, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt dont seem to have.Nor have they followed the Rules mentioned in Quran. But didnt u say messengers will govern people by Quranic rules and ways?
I think they were divine good people coz they understood the true divine message.Ahkaam of Allah are there for human evolution, but the majority of HUMANKIND, according to ALLAH, are against his path. Therefore, to seek THIER approval is pointless, even kufr. Thier idea of betterment is different from al-quraan's idea.
Which system of democracy says its correct to be dishonest, to steal, to murder, to comit adultery, to rape etc?
Like u are, I am talking of the majority of the mankind who insist on good human values. Is that non-Quranic way? How are they against Allah's path when the majority are saying all that is wrong and should be stopped with adequate rules and regulations?Quran guides me by giving the message, by giving me the truth, by giving the faith , by giving me the strength to uphold the values mentioned in Quran. In Quran Allah tells us to strive to attain wisdom, knowledge and uphold good values. Thats how it guides me. And no, its purpose is not to be a dictionary. Its not there to spoonfeed us. Its there to guide.
How does it give you the truth? If you read it without understanding any Arabic, what does it give you? If you read the word 'salaat' as prayer, would the message be the same?
How does al-quraan guide if you don't know the words?!Knowing Quran, I think is not restricted only to those who understand arabic. The most important thing is to understand the message(from Quran in a language one understands), its essence and that I do, to the best of my ability and thus I know the truth of Quran.
Again, it guides me coz I understand the message through a language I understand. -
Hi Stilllearning,
Peace to u too!
Hi Jaxal,
why would u say Quran is corrupted? ur reasons,please.?
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salaam
Stillearning, if you'll answer this question first, I will address your point. I believe in reciprocity in discussions. Thank you
Excellent. Now the question, WHY is it ok to compel others to follow your law? Please read the operative word...WHY is it ok if they don't believe in it? Remember, in a democracy, FREEDOM is paramount. FREEDOM.
Answer For any society to function it rquires rules and regulations. That as as far as I am aware has always been the case (unless you know differntly). I have given you number of examples of systems, democracy, communism etc, where these rules come from. As far as I am aware you follow these rules, unless you are an undiscovered criminal or live an uninhabited island all by yourself.
You do not believe in any of these system but keep repeating that they have to be given by the messenger so I will repeat the question who is this messenger on 10th Novemeber 2005 who will give us these rules. -
SaLaM stillearning
so I will repeat the question who is this messenger on 10th Novemeber 2005 who will give us these rules.
Or even better
Who was a messenger from God in the last 1400 years after Prophet Muhammad
PM
I would happily discuss with you on this thread. But basically, the reason i say Quran is corrupted is becoz i have seen two different copies of the Quran. One was old copy and the other one was new. The new one had additions to it. The thread in link has evidence for you to see and reach ur conclusion.
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Jaxal,
i think u missed thisWho was a messenger from God in the last 1400 years after Prophet Muhammad
I understand what you're asking but I live in the present. I don't believe in going into historical reports. For all I know, Bahaullah, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt could have been rusul. But I'm not going to assert that because history is not proof for me and nor is it for al-quraan.
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Jaxal,
What????? roll
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SaLaM PM
My question was specific. WHO was the messenger in the past 1400 years. The quote in no way shape or form answer the question. Which means the poster didnt know the answer so he is waffeling. So as it stands, this is the case
WE DONT KNOW THE MESSENGER WAS IN THE PAST 1400 YEARS
WE DONT KNOW WHO THE MESSENGER IS NOWThat really widens the already present hole in the whole "We need messenger to run a country" theory.
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oh alright.
since u had adressed it to me, was wondering what u were saying.
)
peace!yep, u see it.
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Some of examples of Allah adressing the present(you are right 610-623 AD . the prophet was born on 570 AD)
519 O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)" But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.
7184 Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness he is but a perspicuous warner.
7188 Say "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."
3446 Say "I do admonish you on one point that ye do stand up before Allah,- (It may be) in pairs, or (it may be) singly,- and reflect (within yourselves) your Companion is not possessed he is no less than a warner to you, in face of a terrible Penalty."
3447 Say "No reward do I ask of you it is (all) in your interest my reward is only due from Allah. And He is witness to all things."
The above verses are clearly adressed to prophet Mohammed telling him, what to tell the people of then.
I did say some of the messages apply in a general sense to mankind in generalI'm sorry but I don't see that way. I see the above verses as applicable to all people in the prophetic mission. These are things we might say for example.
I live in the present too. But since we are talking of a revealation that arrived in 610-623 AD and since u r predicting messengers would keep coming from time to time to govern people,its only natural that i ask who they were who came after 623 AD.
Ask away and al-quraan answers you
O ye who believe! ASK NOT QUESTIONS about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the QURAN IS REVEALED, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those for God is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing (5/101)
Are u saying messengers of Allah dont need to uphold Quran and govern people? If no, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt dont seem to have.Nor have they followed the Rules mentioned in Quran. But didnt u say messengers will govern people by Quranic rules and ways?
I think they were divine good people coz they understood the true divine messageI don't believe messengers of Allah need to uphold al-quraan but al-kitaab (as 3/164 points out). Having said that, Im not asserting these people were messengers. Im ASKING you, how do you know they're not. I don't trust history. I trust my experiences and the book.
Which system of democracy says its correct to be dishonest, to steal, to murder, to comit adultery, to rape etc?
Like u are, I am talking of the majority of the mankind who insist on good human values. Is that non-Quranic way? How are they against Allah's path when the majority are saying all that is wrong and should be stopped with adequate rules and regulations?No system says its correct, but by instituting punishments not fitting the crime (e.g. life imprisonment for for murder instead of death penalty), we are ignoring the laws of Allah which is designed for human betterment.
Question do you accept Allah's verdict or a democratic verdict? If its the latter, that's fine but we should stop wasting our time with this conversation.
And btw, our society says fornication is ok.
Knowing Quran, I think is not restricted only to those who understand arabic. The most important thing is to understand the message(from Quran in a language one understands), its essence and that I do, to the best of my ability and thus I know the truth of Quran.
Again, it guides me coz I understand the message through a language I understandOk, so you do need to resort of language in order to understand the book. Therefore al-quraan needs to clarify its words. Without its internal mechanism, we can never be sure of its meaning.
Salaat is the best case in point of this, imho.
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StilllearningAnswer For any society to function it rquires rules and regulations. That as as far as I am aware has always been the case (unless you know differntly). I have given you number of examples of systems, democracy, communism etc, where these rules come from. As far as I am aware you follow these rules, unless you are an undiscovered criminal or live an uninhabited island all by yourself.
So its ok for the systems to have rules and PUNISH people? So why do you have a problem with ISLAM having rules? Why the double standards please?
You do not believe in any of these system but keep repeating that they have to be given by the messenger so I will repeat the question who is this messenger on 10th Novemeber 2005 who will give us these rules.
I don't know but as I said, I will keep serving God to the best of my ability. Btw, my inability to find a messenger doesn't disprove my argument. What disproves my argument (if you're a muslim and believe al-quraan is our criteria) is ayaat from al-quraan proving that the quran is democratic. Im still waiting for verses proving this, that we need to SEEK APPROVAL from AL-KAFIREEN , people who reject the quran and say its corrupted, to run our deen. Would you mind bringing forth the ayaat if you believe al-quraan is our criteria and that its not corrupted?
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salaam
So its ok for the systems to have rules and PUNISH people? So why do you have a problem with ISLAM having rules? Why the double standards please?
Would you be kind enough to find where I have stated I have problems with Islam having rules?
The whole discussion has been that Quran does not have rules to govern a given society-I have given you simple examples of cars schools etc.
In fact I would be happy to accept these rules if you can find them for me.
Let us start with a very simple one speed of a car in built up area. -
The whole discussion has been that Quran does not have rules to govern a given society
Lashings for Adultery is not part of a rule of a given society?
Regards,
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Lashings for Adultery is not part of a rule of a given society?
Well thats settled it then we can run a whole society by lashing people for adultery. That covers just about everything i guess.
How many lashes for overspeeding?
regards -
Lashings for Adultery is not part of a rule of a given society?
Well thats settled it then we can run a whole society by lashing people for adultery. That covers just about everything i guess.
How many lashes for overspeeding?
regardsTwo! Since in Muhammads time they sped on Camels, so two lashes for each hump wink
But you don't get it do you? Just like jaxal...
Still learning YOU HAVE A SET OF DIVINE IMMUTBLE LAWS like LASHING FOR ADULTERY. THESE LAWS CAN'T BE CHANGED. IN DEMOCRACY YOU CAN - DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS AND MAN MADE LAWS?
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Two! Since in Muhammads time they sped on Camels, so two lashes for each hump
Humor is suppose to be funny-not a repetitive s---- jokes
But you don't get it do you? Just like jaxal...
I suppose you do. Let us start from beginning for the umpteenth time
You said Quran is anti-democratic! full stop!
Democracy is a system used to govern any given society.
In any given society there will be number of differnt groups
with different set of rules for any given problem
There may be group of muslims who want to be part of this
democratic process and form a party who if elected will have urban
road speed for cars of 37.4567 miles/hour, severe beating for those
who tell crap jokes and think they are funny and also lashes for
adultery. Unless the majority accept them they will not be entitled to
rule and implement the lashes.
How do you find this antidemocratic-or are you going to disappear
again.
regardsStill learning YOU HAVE A SET OF DIVINE IMMUTBLE LAWS like LASHING FOR ADULTERY. THESE LAWS CAN'T BE CHANGED. IN DEMOCRACY YOU CAN - DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS AND MAN MADE LAWS?
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There was this new guy in town and one day, he asks a pastor on the street where the post office was. The pastor tells him, the right way would be to walk down this road, then turn right and turn left.he follows the pastors instruction and finds the post office and mails his letters.
A month later, he had to mail again. he went through the same way. when he asked someone on the street, the guy said ' they have relocated to west street and u need to go right then turn right then left. the guy thought, 'how can i believe this guy? the pastor had told me to go straight then right then left. HOW CAN THE PASTOR LIE? since the pastor cant lie, the man is.well, the pastor did give the right directions to the post office earlier. but what the guy didnt understand was, the directions were right becoz they served the purpose. and that is why they were said.
now this is what happens when a man doesnt use the so called 'common sense', as to understand why something was said in the first place.
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Two! Since in Muhammads time they sped on Camels, so two lashes for each hump
Humor is suppose to be funny-not a repetitive s---- jokes
Its hard to make some people laugh wink
But don't upset yourself over it winkBut you don't get it do you? Just like jaxal...
I suppose you do.Yes -)
And here it is DIVINE IMMUTBLE LAWS are not COMPATIBLE with DEMOCRACY.
Let us start from beginning for the umpteenth time
You said Quran is anti-democratic! full stop!Yes, for above reason. DEMOCRACY - human make the laws. This always will be incompatible with DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS. You either ignore divine immutable laws and embrace DEMOCRACY...but you can't have both....
The rest of your argument is extraneous words...
In any given society there will be number of differnt groups
with different set of rules for any given problem
There may be group of muslims who want to be part of this
democratic process and form a party who if elected will have urban
road speed for cars of 37.4567 miles/hour, severe beating for those
who tell crap jokes and think they are funny and also lashes for
adultery. Unless the majority accept them they will not be entitled to
rule and implement the lashes.Hey you seems to be funny -)
How about lashings for people who want to make DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW into a democractic process? wink
Regards,
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Peace,
The whole discussion has been that Quran does not have rules to govern a given society
I'm going to assume that you are not too familiar with quranic concepts so it's application to the modern epoch has evaded you.
I believe al-quran does have laws to govern a society.
For example, one's power is to be cut for theft, we should have a strong standing military to avert threats, house arrest for certain obscenities, contracts, et cetera.
You wonder how the rasool could lead in the modern epoch, take the exemplars of David and Solomon.
Al-Kitaab is not stagnant in the flow of time. It means something even now. It will benefit those who know. Knowledge of alkitaab is a preriquisite to understanding .
Joe
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Salaam Stillearning,
I have reread the thread in its entirety and have formulated the issues which I think remains unresolved.
Im going to assume one thing that you're a person who believes AL-QURAAN IS YOUR CRITERIA. If im wrong in this assertion, then forget the points below and peace be upon you.
- You wrote Lottree I am in full agreement with you that democracy, without being perfect, is the best system to date
My question Is democracy better than God's system? If you still believe in al-quraan, prove this from al-quraan please?
- Do you believe that we should confer with people who DO NOT BELIEVE when operationalising God's laws? Yes or no please.
That's all for now.