Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Here is six examples
- DEMOCRACY allows you to remove people from Power by peaceful means.
- DEMOCRACY allows you to remove people from Power by peaceful means.
- DEMOCRACY allows you to remove people from Power by peaceful means.
- DEMOCRACY allows you to remove people from Power by peaceful means.
- DEMOCRACY allows you to remove people from Power by peaceful means.
- DEMOCRACY allows you to remove people from power by peaceful means.
then remove Bush ,Sharon ...
...Erm, where is the Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher now? Where is Clinton?
They have beeen peacefully removed from office -)...Erm, Bush and Sharon .
Yes, what about them?
Bush has no choice but to leave office after this electoral term - when do you expect to Gaddafi, Musharaf and Dictator of North Korea to leave? not any time soon for sure, they will go on and on and on!!!?Regards,
yes . they only leave when their term ends . they are not removed while they are causing death and destruction .
Saddam did not leave even after killing millions of his own people let alone Iranians did he!
Regards,
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SaLaM LT
You believe the Quran is anti-democratic. Will you mind giving me 5 examples of that?
I have given my reasons in the first posts.
But mquran can give you far more details on how quran is anti-demoractic more than I ever can.Thanks.
Regards,
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Saddam did not leave even after killing millions of his own people let alone Iranians did he!
saddam was taken down by force . do u expect the same to happen to Bush ? no . he will keep on killing . and when he will leave , other murderers will replace him in the oval office . thats what happens . one murderer replaces another .
saddam will be punished . what about bush ?
peace.
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SaLaM LT
This is what you have said in your first posts.
Quran is anti-democratic. FULLSTOP!
Forming consultative body is not DEMOCRACY!
Those are not evidence. Those are statments. statments with nothing to back them up. How about you give me 5 examples of Quran being anti-demcratic. Or if not 5, then how about 3? or 2?
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Saddam did not leave even after killing millions of his own people let alone Iranians did he!
saddam was taken down by force.
Thats HOW dictators are removed from office - do you not get this?
do u expect the same to happen to Bush?
In democracy you don't have to - do you not get this?
no. he will keep on killing . and when he will leave , other murderers will replace him in the oval office . thats what happens . one murderer replaces another .
You mean like Saddam did? Like he killed millions of his own people?
saddam will be punished . what about bush ?
peace.Ha ha LOL! -)
Saddam will be punished because of Bush!
Because Bush and Blair had the guts to do what no middle eastern country was ever capable of doing and that is to remove a vile dictator!Regards,
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Salaam,
Why do murderers have to replace Bush in the office?
Joe
salam.
isnt that what happens ?from http//www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Intro_RogueState.html
No, it is not simply that power corrupts and dehumanizes.
Neither is it that US foreign policy is cruel because American leaders are cruel.
It's that our leaders are cruel because only those willing to be inordinately cruel and remorseless can hold positions of leadership in the foreign policy establishment; it might as well be written into the job description. People capable of expressing a full human measure of compassion and empathy toward faraway powerless strangers - (let alone American soldiers - do not become president of the United States, or vice president, or secretary of state, or national security adviser or secretary of the treasury. Nor do they want to.
There's a sort of Peter Principle at work here. Laurence Peter wrote that in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence. Perhaps we can postulate that in a foreign policy establishment committed to imperialist domination by any means necessary, employees tend to rise to the level of cruelty they can live with.
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Those who are stating Quran is anti-democratic have not given one single reason for this ridiculous statement.
Can you please explain how a consultative body or a leader would emerge according to the Quran which is not keeping with democracy.
I was not aware that in any democratic state all the wishes of the majority are always adhered to e.g why is there no capital punishment in UK when vast majority of people are in favour (opinio polls). -
SaLaM stillearning
I am too waiting for a half decent argument stating Quran is anti-democratic ?
This is my understanding
Firstly, Quran encourages human beings, who rules in Gods name (namely the Caliph who is not elected by the whole of the people) to set up a consultative body (Surah 3 150). This Caliph may or may not consult his advisers but in either case their advice is not binding on him (or her! - were there any women Caliphs in the past?). He derives his own conclusions. The principle of majority opinion has no relevance in this process of consultation. This is not same as government by the people for the people where all the people in a society are involved in whole electoral process, to devise a government for themselves. Therefore this is not democracy.Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
But perhaps Jaxal, you can give your own interpretation on this and show us why myself, mquran and Ayman wrong on this -)
Read the "absurdity of theocracy" thread....
Regards,
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Lottree wrote
This is my understanding
Firstly, Quran encourages human beings, who rules in Gods name (namely the Caliph who is not elected by the whole of the people) to set up a consultative body (Surah 3 150).Lottree can you please show me one single refernce to a Caliph in the Quran. Below is the Quranic verse that you have quoted, can you please explain how it fits in with you have written above.
O you who believe, if you obey those who have rejected, then they will turn you back on your heels and you will turn back as losers(3150)
Secondly are you aware of any democracy where the elected leaders go with the wishes of the majority on every occassion ( I did raise this previousouly)
Regards -
Lottree wrote
This is my understanding
Firstly, Quran encourages human beings, who rules in Gods name (namely the Caliph who is not elected by the whole of the people) to set up a consultative body (Surah 3 150).Lottree can you please show me one single refernce to a Caliph in the Quran. Below is the Quranic verse that you have quoted, can you please explain how it fits in with you have written above.
O you who believe, if you obey those who have rejected, then they will turn you back on your heels and you will turn back as losers(3150)
Sorry. It is 3159..
...and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah.
The above has been construed as the Leader calling for consultation from the people. But the leader comes to his own conclusion. Caliph is just a lable for the leader.
Secondly are you aware of any democracy where the elected leaders go with the wishes of the majority on every occassion ( I did raise this previousouly)
RegardsThat is not the point. The point is democracy is government by the people for the people. It is the people who decide in how to govern themselves. It is the people that make the laws. This is contrary to the Quran which the unalterable Code of law. Quran is against majority decisions. But only Mr. Edip has a point when he says this majority decisions is discouraged when it comes to understanding the nature of God...And I can understand his point there...
Regards,
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SaLaM
The defination of democracy from dictionary.com
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
Every leader is elected by the people. Unless its a monarchy, which i dont know of any tht exists in the muslim world. hmmm.
The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
People vote. So they are the political power
Majority rule.
As long as it agrees with the Quran.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.
Quran teaches us to respect people of other faiths.
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SaLaM Mehdi
do you mean if the majority doesn't agree with the Quran then it's no good? or it shouldn't become law etc.?
Ofcourse mehdi. That is common sense. For example, Quran doesnt allow innocent killings. Now if the majority says kill the innocent, then ofcourse it wont be made into a law. Or how about a more practical example? Interest rates on loan. As far as i am aware of, and do correct me if i am wrong, but the Quran doesnt allow any interest to be charged on the money loaned. Now if the majority says 'no, we want to charge interest' then ofcourse it goes against the teaching of the Quran and hence it wont be accepted. Does this makes sense?
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Salaam
How does forming a consultative body become anti-democratic?
Lote tree please can you give me any reference in the Quran which states that Islamic leadership has to be a dictatorship, as you keep suggesting.
Your initial suggestion was that the majority decisions are not binding on a muslim leader but now you state that this is not the point. You keep referring to Mr Edips point about the Quran suggesting that Islamic Goverment is not democratic, may be I have missed the point can you kindly explain it to me again how the Quran suggests an Islamic leader or govement should be formed.
Yes if majority of the people wish to form a goverment with Islamic principles they will do so with understanding that it will follow the moral principles and guidance as outlined in the Quran, very similar to written constitutions of the most of the democracies. The Quran has relatively very few specific laws and often provides moral guidance in undertaking of decisions. However if the people decide that they do not wish to follow the guidance as outlined in the Quran they can form a Goverment on that basis but it will no longer be known as a Muslim goverment. Does the quran not state there is no compulsion in religion!
The point, perhaps in a long winded way, I am trying to make is that no where in the Quran a dictatorship or monarchy is advocated. Those that suggest that Quran is anti-democratic apart from making this statement have failed to explain how the Quran suggests a goverment should be formed.
regards -
How does forming a consultative body become anti-democratic?
Because this body is not elected by the people?
Lote tree please can you give me any reference in the Quran which states that Islamic leadership has to be a dictatorship, as you keep suggesting.
3159
...and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah.This has been construed as the leader working within dictatorship...or kingship.
You keep referring to Mr Edips point about the Quran suggesting that Islamic Goverment is not democratic, may be I have missed the point can you kindly explain it to me again how the Quran suggests an Islamic leader or govement should be formed.
Read mqurans and Aymans posts! They can provide you with ample quranic references for you to look at.
Yes if majority of the people wish to form a goverment with Islamic principles they will do so with understanding that it will follow the moral principles and guidance as outlined in the Quran, very similar to written constitutions of the most of the democracies.
The Quran has relatively very few specific laws and often provides moral guidance in undertaking of decisions. However if the people decide that they do not wish to follow the guidance as outlined in the Quran they can form a Goverment on that basis but it will no longer be known as a Muslim goverment. Does the quran not state there is no compulsion in religion!
Exactly, thats why secular democracy is the only way to go.
The point, perhaps in a long winded way, I am trying to make is that no where in the Quran a dictatorship or monarchy is advocated.
Read mquran and Ayman's posts...
Those that suggest that Quran is anti-democratic apart from making this statement have failed to explain how the Quran suggests a goverment should be formed.
Here is my understanding.
Firstly, Quran encourages human beings, who rules in Gods name (namely the Caliph who is not elected by the whole of the people) to set up a consultative body (Surah 3 150). This Caliph may or may not consult his advisers but in either case their advice is not binding on him (or her! - were there any women Caliphs in the past?). He derives his own conclusions. The principle of majority opinion has no relevance in this process of consultation. This is not same as government by the people for the people where all the people in a society are involved in whole electoral process, to devise a government for themselves. Therefore this is not democracy.
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
Please put forward your own uderstanding.
Thanks.Regards,
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Because this body is not elected by the people?
So where does this body come from? Please elaborate.
Quran talks about decision with consultatation there is not a mention of a formation of abody!Quote
3159
...and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah.This has been construed as the leader working within dictatorship...or kingship.
Your understanding of English is very strange to me. The above to means when you have consulted and agreed upon a decision then put your trust in Allah that it will work or is the right decision. How can you even possibly construe this as working with dictatorship or King- what a bizzare conclusion! Where in that sentence does is suggest that that wishes of the majority in consultation process should be ignored. Has it occured to you that consulatation of affairs may also mean consultation to select a decision making body.
Exactly, thats why secular democracy is the only way to go.
I thought democracy was the will of the people? what if they chose not to have a secular goverment or do you define democracy as something which only agrees with your views!
Here is my understanding.
Quote
Firstly, Quran encourages human beings, who rules in Gods name (namely the Caliph who is not elected by the whole of the people) to set up a consultative body (Surah 3 150). This Caliph may or may not consult his advisers but in either case their advice is not binding on him (or her! - were there any women Caliphs in the past?). He derives his own conclusions. The principle of majority opinion has no relevance in this process of consultation. This is not same as government by the people for the people where all the people in a society are involved in whole electoral process, to devise a government for themselves. Therefore this is not democracy.
Secondly in Democracy Laws are made by the People for the People for the Society they live in. The Quran forbids such law-making by making the Koran an eternal and unchangeable code of law.
First of all you have both misquoted and misinterpreted 3150. As I have mentioned previousouly there is no reference in the Quran about a Caliph or how a leader goverment etc should be appointed.
As I have mentioned Quran has very few specific laws it is predominantly concerned with moral values- but you simply chose to ignore this point.
Please find me rules about selection of a Goverment, transport policy, enviormental policy, foreign policy... I could go on for ever I thin you get my gist.Read mqurans and Aymans posts! They can provide you with ample quranic references for you to look at.
Apologies I cannot find Ayman post but if you can post it again I will give you my opinion.
As for mquran below are the refernces he has given from the Quran to justify that Quran is anti-democratic3110 And to God is all that is in heavens and in the Earth; and to God the events will be returned.
3159 And if you die or are killed, then to God you will be gathered.
4238 The recompense for a crime shall be its equivalence, but whoever forgives and makes right, then his reward is upon God. He does not like the wrongdoers.
5810O you who believe, if you must meet secretly, then you shall not meet to commit sin, transgression, and to disobey the messenger. You shall meet to work righteousness and piety. And be aware of God, before whom you will be summoned.
His conclusions are as bizzare as suggesting 2+2=5. They simply defy any logic. Please expalin how you can possibly interpert the above as being anti-democracy
apologies for any mistakes in spelling etc in rush not checked
Regards