THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS...ARE NOT MUSLIM AT ALL?
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PEACE, MUQURAN,
PBM In the following ayat, Abraham, is referred to as haneefan, but not haneefan muslim.
I take the quran as a whole book, so that really doesn't affect my understanding. But what's your point with this statement? If haneefan muslim implies 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen' (never was he associted with shirik), then what's the point of having it there if it means exactly the same thing as 'muslim' ? In effect , 'haneefan muslimaan' would be 'muslim muslim' ?
My point is this, haneefan, isn't changing the meaning of the term muslim, rather, it is a term of emphasis. As I said to you previously, haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that, as a muslim, he was uninhibited/bold/of powerful character. As a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham?
PBM Can you provide an ayat where Allah uses muslim as a negative? What I mean is, if a muslim can be a polytheist as you are suggesting, then where in Al-Quran does Allah identify a muslim as polytheist? I'm not looking for an allusory example or what might be construed as such, but a definitive ayat where muslim is defined as a negative.
Im thinking of this passage. See early chapter 9 please up to 9/11
But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brothers in ad-deen (fa ikhwaanukum fee ad-deen)...So brotherhood in ad-deen (you might remember that ad-deen in the sight of Allah is al-islaam) is defined by iqamussalaat and itauzzakaat. But who are the 'they' in the verse? see 9/12 But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith (aimmatul kuffar)...So you see, it is possible AFTER the submission to violate and return to the state of conflict and kufr.If I'm not mistaken the ayats you are referring to are not talking about muslims, but the polytheists and unbelievers. Read the context beginning with 91.
Also, as I said prveviously, Allah, has defined the term muslim as one, who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salam PBM,
My point is this, haneefan, isn't changing the meaning of the term muslim, rather, it is a term of emphasis. As I said to you previously, haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that, as a muslim, he was uninhibited/bold/of powerful character.
Haneefan doesn't mean 'uninhibited/bold/of powerful character'. It means as the Quran implies, a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this.
As a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham?
If I did, i'd be imam of mankind. But this question of yours is irrelevant to the discussion.
If I'm not mistaken the ayats you are referring to are not talking about muslims, but the polytheists and unbelievers. Read the context beginning with 91
.You're not mistaken. The passage deals 'al-mushrikeen'/'al-kafireen' but once they return, establish as-salaat and render az-zakaat, they are 'brothers in ad-deen' (9/11). Ad-deen, once again is al-islaam (3/19) therefore these people are Muslims once they do this. However, as I've pointed out, as soon as they step out of line, the Muslims are to fight their leaders. So they became kafir once again. Im just pointing out to you, that being a 'muslim' but not haneefa muslim doesnt preclude the possibility of reneging.
Also, as I said prveviously, Allah, has defined the term muslim as one, who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly?
Sir, Allah used the term 'haneefan muslimaan' so if you want to forget that, that's your business.
In my understanding a muslim is one who is outwardly in submission to God's laws. In his heart, he may bear the notions of shirik and kufr and he may rescind his islaam and fall prey to them. However, if he is haneefan musliman, this possibility is nullified. So far, I do not see this in contradiction with the book.
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peace mq,
The passage deals 'al-mushrikeen'/'al-kafireen' but once they return, establish as-salaat and render az-zakaat, they are 'brothers in ad-deen' (9/11). Ad-deen, once again is al-islaam (3/19) therefore these people are Muslims once they do this.
They are not 'Muslims'. Since they are akhw in ad-deen they become Muslims is an assumption. Please refute the following article which discusses this point extensively
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
They are not 'Muslims'. Since they are akhw in ad-deen they become Muslims is an assumption. Please refute the following article which discusses this point extensively
Please tell me what you think I mean when I say 'muslims' in this context. I don't think you need to prove to me that 'salat' isn't 'prayers', Wakas.
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Salaams SB,
You say
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).4116 Inna Allaha la yaghfiru an yushraka bihi wayaghfiru ma doona thalika liman yashao waman yushrik billahi faqad dalla dalalan baAAeeda.
But you are missing ? I think, the point .When do you associate other gods with God.
Is making a statue and saying that is The God, Associating?
What is the quranic concept of Associating?
022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable?
I do strongly advice checking the ayah?s surrounding 4116 or anywhere such a statement accur ? as I noticed it is always saying this about people who are Zalimeen and not necessarily polytheists.
And remember people of the Book, who say God has a son, are polytheist as well ? I think.
Why are they forgivable?
Gods Blessings.
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peace mq,
Please tell me what you think I mean when I say 'muslims' in this context. I don't think you need to prove to me that 'salat' isn't 'prayers', Wakas.
lol Dude, I know that. Dont be put off by the title of the article, within it, it discusses the point you raised about twb, establish slw, bring zkw, akhw in dyn, dyn = islam, thus they = muslim.
From what I gather, you regard a 'muslim' as one who is outwardly submissive/compliant/conforming/submissive. This is not correct from my reading of 'al quran' in which a mindset/belief is also intermingled for one who is muslim, see 352, 380, 1084 for some examples.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum Wakas,
From what I gather, you regard a 'muslim' as one who is outwardly submissive/compliant/conforming/submissive. This is not correct from my reading of 'al quran' in which a mindset/belief is also intermingled for one who is muslim, see 352, 380, 1084 for some examples
Right, its possible to have belief intermingled, sure. However, the guys in 49/14 are clearly not mumin yet. This is where I'm going with this.
Suppose there's an an 'islamic' domain. Anyone who enters it, takes the oath to produce growth, that person's a muslim. However, we know there are guys who get in there but really don't believe in it. These guys may or may not work against the system, depending on which benefits them the most. So these guys are 'legally' muslim, but in the soul sense of the word, they have sowed the seeds of thier own destruction for lack of imaan.
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peace mq,
Suppose there's an an 'islamic' domain. Anyone who enters it, takes the oath to produce growth, that person's a muslim.
I disagree. Where did you get that? They would more closely be termed 'akhw' not 'muslim'. Strictly speaking, if one pledges to establish/uphold the bond (e.g. state law in this case) and bring forth betterment, they are 'akhw' , perhaps more closely called 'citizen' in your context.
So these guys are 'legally' muslim
As far as I'm aware, one cannot be legally 'muslim'.
By the way, I do agree with your original comments in this thread about 'muslim' having nothing to do with 'al quran'.
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
I disagree. Where did you get that? They would more closely be termed 'akhw' not 'muslim'. Strictly speaking, if one pledges to establish/uphold the bond (e.g. state law in this case) and bring forth betterment, they are 'akhw' , perhaps more closely called 'citizen' in your context.
Akhw in what though? 9/11 says ikhwaanu fee ad-deen. So they are brothers in the ad-deen in sight of Allah (because its AD-deen, not just deen). I dont need to mention to you what ad-deen in the sight of Allah is, Im sure. And yes, a muslim is a 'citizen' in an islamic domain, that domain can even be a home.
As far as I'm aware, one cannot be legally 'muslim'
.In what dimension do you suggest a muslim is, if not 'legally'. If it is spiritual, then what of the hypocrites?
By the way, I do agree with your original comments in this thread about 'muslim' having nothing to do with 'al quran'.
Yes but you're muslim to God's laws which are detailed in Al-quraan, mechanically speaking. Its not possible to be muslim to an abstract Allah.
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peace mq,
Maybe its just me, but I get confused trying to work out what you mean sometimes. P But I'll answer what I think you're asking...
Akhw in what though?
As per your example, an 'islamic' domain. I assumed by that you meant a state.
In what dimension do you suggest a muslim is, if not 'legally'. If it is spiritual, then what of the hypocrites?
Being 'muslim' is personal between you and The God. Can you clarify what you meant by the latter question above.
Its not possible to be muslim to an abstract Allah.
If you're saying its impossible to be a 'muslim' without knowing whats in 'al quran', then I disagree. The God's laws are not only expounded in 'al quran' but they can also be found in the nature/essence of man. A user can successfully utilise an operating system without a manual. The manual is for those who wish to advance.
Wakas
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PEACE, MQURAN,
PBM My point is this, haneefan, isn't changing the meaning of the term muslim, rather, it is a term of emphasis. As I said to you previously, haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that, as a muslim, he was uninhibited/bold/of powerful character.
Haneefan doesn't mean 'uninhibited/bold/of powerful character'. It means as the Quran implies, a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this.
Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik".
Main Entry HANAFA turn away from error to guidance stand firmly on one side one inclining towards a right state or tendency upright man striaght forward. The Dict. of the Holy Quran, by Omar, pg. 139
Main Entry STRAIGHTFORWARD free from evasiveness or obscurity.
Straightforward, does suggest "unhibited"/bold etc., especially, in the time of Abraham.
Main entry SALIMA To be in sound condition well without a blemish safe and sound to surrender to submit blameless faultless clearly proven peace. The Dict. of the Holy Quran, by Omar, pg. 267
Salima, from which the term muslim derives, does not support your conjecture that a muslim can be a polytheist.
Consider the following ayat
152 Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Muslims.
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. You will further notice the contrasting of kafirun with Muslim. Kafiruns and hypocrites are polytheists...muslims, haneefan or otherwise, are not.
PBM As a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham?
If I did, i'd be imam of mankind. But this question of yours is irrelevant to the discussion.
On the contrary, being iman of the nations is another issue. Had he not been muslim first, then he could not have been given the title of Iman to the nations. My question stands...as a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham? Yes or no?
You're not mistaken. The passage deals 'al-mushrikeen'/'al-kafireen' but once they return, establish as-salaat and render az-zakaat, they are 'brothers in ad-deen' (9/11). Ad-deen, once again is al-islaam (3/19) therefore these people are Muslims once they do this. However, as I've pointed out, as soon as they step out of line, the Muslims are to fight their leaders. So they became kafir once again. Im just pointing out to you, that being a 'muslim' but not haneefa muslim doesnt preclude the possibility of reneging.
Once they return to what?! These people were not Muslims in the first place so how did they become muslims again?! As far as oaths and agreements go, the polytheist, were not required by Allah to give up their beliefs before entering into certain agreements with the muslims or vice versa. If a muslim turns back from faith, which certainly has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen in the future, then, that individual is no longer muslim, but a munafiq. Now, of course, a munafiq can repent and become muslim again, however, if one is not a muslim, then, one is a polytheist. These terms are referring to particular states of action/being.
PBM Also, as I said previously, Allah, has defined the term muslim as one, who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly?
Sir, Allah used the term 'haneefan muslimaan' so if you want to forget that, that's your business.
I'm not forgetting anything, but I think you are. Does Allah not know how to define His Words? I repeat my question Allah, has defined the term muslim, as one who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly (see ayat 151 again)?
In my understanding a muslim is one who is outwardly in submission to God's laws. In his heart, he may bear the notions of shirik and kufr and he may rescind his islaam and fall prey to them. However, if he is haneefan musliman, this possibility is nullified. So far, I do not see this in contradiction with the book.
One can harbor all sorts of things in one's heart. Even the Messenger Yunus, harbored doubts...did he cease being a Muslim? Was he less of a Muslim than Abraham? Remember, we are commanded to make no distinctions between Allah's prophets and Messengers. Look, harboring ill thoughts of shirk ( taking something else along with or exclusive of Allah, for one's guidance) doesn't undo one being a Muslim, however, carrying out thoughts of shirk into practice certainly would.
Please post the ayat where Allah says that being haneefan muslim precludes one from reneging and turning back from faith/this possibility is nullified. You are simply extrapolating and assigning this value to this term.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, MZ357,
Glad you are participating.
You say
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).4116 Inna Allaha la yaghfiru an yushraka bihi wayaghfiru ma doona thalika liman yashao waman yushrik billahi faqad dalla dalalan baAAeeda.
But you are missing ? I think, the point . When do you associate other gods with God. Is making a statue and saying that is The God, Associating? What is the quranic concept of Associating?
Main Entry GUIDANCE/Al-QURAN the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
When an individual takes some being, some inanimate object, someone along with or exclusive to Allah for their guidance, then that individual is associating with Allah.
022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable?
The ayat doesn't say anything about Allah forgiving the polytheists, it simply says that Allah will judge between them, however, according to ayat 4116, the judgement will be unforgiveness. Consider the following ayats
- Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salam PBM,
Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik".
Is this argument meant to affect me in some way? I have no sentiments towards the messenger If he wasn't totally dissociated, thats not my problem is it? FYI, he was inspired to follow ibrahim (16/123) but once again, your argument is not relevant at all.
Straightforward, does suggest "unhibited"/bold etc., especially, in the time of Abraham
It might to you and that's your right. I prefer Quranic definitions.
Salima, from which the term muslim derives, does not support your conjecture that a muslim can be a polytheist.
Some questions here
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What does a munafiiq resemble outwardly?
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This munafiq guy, what does he harbour in his heart?
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. You will further notice the contrasting of kafirun with Muslim. Kafiruns and hypocrites are polytheists...muslims, haneefan or otherwise, are not.
I disagree. To kafireen, all they see is 'muslim', they cannot tell the difference between either point. A haneefan muslimaan rejects the ego god, for example. Its not possible to see that happening. Its something inner.
On the contrary, being iman of the nations is another issue. Had he not been muslim first, then he could not have been given the title of Iman to the nations. My question stands...as a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham? Yes or no?
ANOTHER issue ? It's right there in the context. He fulfilled God's concepts and Allah made him imam to humankind. How can it be another issue?
I ask you to please desist from these personal questions. We're discussing something theoretical. As I told you, if i was comparable to Ibrahim, i'd be imam of humankind but clearly im not.
Once they return to what?! These people were not Muslims in the first place so how did they become muslims again?! As far as oaths and agreements go, the polytheist, were not required by Allah to give up their beliefs before entering into certain agreements with the muslims or vice versa. If a muslim turns back from faith, which certainly has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen in the future, then, that individual is no longer muslim, but a munafiq. Now, of course, a munafiq can repent and become muslim again, however, if one is not a muslim, then, one is a polytheist. These terms are referring to particular states of action/being
Return to the covenant. They became muslim from returning and establishing salaat and rendering zakaat.
From your post, you consider 'ad-deen' as faith, 'tauba' as repent, and 'muslim' as some spiritual term. However, you forget that a munafiq doesn't automatically show his nifaaq
They were that day nearer to Unbelief than to Faith, saying with their lips what was not in their hearts but God hath full knowledge of all they conceal. (3/167)
I'm not forgetting anything, but I think you are. Does Allah not know how to define His Words? I repeat my question Allah, has defined the term muslim, as one who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly (see ayat 151 again)?
Answered above.
One can harbor all sorts of things in one's heart. Even the Messenger Yunus, harbored doubts...did he cease being a Muslim? Was he less of a Muslim than Abraham? Remember, we are commanded to make no distinctions between Allah's prophets and Messengers. Look, harboring ill thoughts of shirk ( taking something else along with or exclusive of Allah, for one's guidance) doesn't undo one being a Muslim, however, carrying out thoughts of shirk into practice certainly would.
Right, now you introduce the dimension of 'practice'. Presumably, the opposite of practice is theory , or in this case, in the heart. This is precisely what im trying to tell you. A muslim isn't the same as haneefan muslim for precisely this reason. Remember, Ibrahim went to Allah with qalbeen saliim, so his heart was in it).
You see kufr, muslim as a discrete block. I don't. To me, its possible to increase kufr just like imaan.
Please post the ayat where Allah says that being haneefan muslim precludes one from reneging and turning back from faith/this possibility is nullified. You are simply extrapolating and assigning this value to this term.
No, thats my interpretation of 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen'. If one's being is free from shirik, then the possibility of reneging isn't there.
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Peace Wakas,
Maybe its just me, but I get confused trying to work out what you mean sometimes. But I'll answer what I think you're asking...
Dude, you know me. Do you think im gonna be planning a hajj trip for us or something?
As per your example, an 'islamic' domain. I assumed by that you meant a state.
Well no, a nation state is something else. An Islamic domain is any space where the laws of islam is enacted. It could be your house and garden or neighbourhood. No formal declaration necessary.
Being 'muslim' is personal between you and The God. Can you clarify what you meant by the latter question above
Dude, how can it be personal? You can only be muslim by submitting to God's laws, man. That external. Im just saying, being muslim is something outward. Your heart may be in it, but it may also not be in it.
If you're saying its impossible to be a 'muslim' without knowing whats in 'al quran', then I disagree. The God's laws are not only expounded in 'al quran' but they can also be found in the nature/essence of man. A user can successfully utilise an operating system without a manual. The manual is for those who wish to advance
you know there's no way i'd say you need al-quraan to be muslim . But you do need the book of nature if you like, thats al-kitaab. So you can either submit knowingly or guessingly. So it'd be better to have the manual but its not necessary, of course.
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Salaams PB,
You said
"022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.Quote
Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable?The ayah doesn't say anything about Allah forgiving the polytheists, it simply says that Allah will judge between them, however, according to ayah 4116, the judgment will be unforgiveness. Consider the following ayahs"
Why on earth will you or anybody judge someone if they arn?t going to have a chance?
I will say it again
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one, who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
We need to identify what is associating ? to my knowledge we associate when we do Zulm, when we are Zalim because then we do obey other then Allah or act in opposition to Allah ? now that is associating , and simply creating idols is not associating.
People going around stone structures or bowing to idols is not Associating at all because we are not acting in opposition to the nature of Allah/T he attributes.
Salaam.
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We need to identify what is associating to my knowledge we associate when we do Zulm, when we are Zalim because then we do obey other then Allah or act in opposition to Allah now that is associating , and simply creating idols is not associating.
Kufr is zulm (al-kafireen hum az-zalimeen, see 2/254) and shirik is kufr (see interchangability between al-mushrikoon and al-kafireen in 9/1-4) so you're right there. But i think u should find 'zulm's definition from the quran and not lanes.
People going around stone structures or bowing to idols is not Associating at all because we are not acting in opposition to the nature of Allah/T he attributes
Brother Mz, may I see evidence for this please?
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PEACE, MQURAN,
PBM Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik".
Is this argument meant to affect me in some way? I have no sentiments towards the messenger If he wasn't totally dissociated, thats not my problem is it? FYI, he was inspired to follow ibrahim (16/123) but once again, your argument is not relevant at all.
On the contrary, this is your problem, hence, it does affect you. What are you kidding me?! The following are your statements on the definition haneefan or what you "think" its definition is
A. MQURAN I prefer Quranic definitions.
O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan. I don't went your conjecture as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you think its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition. To aide you in this task, please refer to the following definitions and ayats
Main Entry "I"...THINK to have as an opinion to regard as.
Main Entry OPINION belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge.
Main Entry IMPRESSION a vague idea in which some confidence is placed.
Main Entry POSITIVE not speculative incontestable independent of changing circumstances.
Main Entry KNOW be convinced or certain of.
Main Entry CERTAIN known or proved to be true indisputable, dependable, reliable.
Main Entry KNOWLEDGE the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.
Main Entry FACT the quality of being actual something that has actual existence a piece of information presented as having objective reality- in fact in truth.
Main Entry ACTUAL existing in fact or reality not false or apparent.
Main EntryTRUTH the state of being the case fact the body of real things, events, and facts actuality.
Main EntryREAL not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or apparent occurring in fact.
Hence, when one loses focus of the above ayat and definitions, the following is the result
5328 And they have no knowledge of it; they do not follow anything but conjecture, and surely conjecture does not avail against the truth at all.
6116 And if you obey/follow the majority of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow nothing but conjecture and they only lie.
Main Entry CONJECTURE supposition inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.
Main Entry RAMA to speak conjecturally.
B. MQURAN It means as the Quran implies, a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this.
I don't want what implications, I want definites. As I replied to you previously, haneefan, is not used in regard to the Last Prophet, hence, according to your logic, he was never totally dissociated from shirk. These are your words now prove them with Quranic facts. Supposition, indications, conjecture, theories are not facts.
C. If haneefan muslim implies 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen' (never was he associted with shirik), then what's the point of having it there if it means exactly the same thing as 'muslim' ? In effect , 'haneefan muslimaan' would be 'muslim muslim' ?
I don't want implications, I want what you KNOW. Your saying haneefan would mean "muslim muslim", is simply your conjecture which you wish to elevate to Quranic fact. Haneefan, according to The Dict. of the Holy Quran, means straightforward. None of its definitions supports your definition of haneefan. At least, please post a dictionary definition which defines and comes to the conclusion of haneefan as you do.
D. MQURAN Im just pointing out to you, that being a 'muslim' but not haneefa muslim doesnt preclude the possibility of reneging.
E. MQURAN A haneefan muslimaan rejects the ego god, for example.
O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan and where Allah says what you claim in quotes D and E. Remember now, I don't want your conjectures/implications as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you "think" its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition of haneefan is.
BTW, you have not answered the following yet
152 Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Muslims.
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. If haneefan is totally free from shirk, as you claim it means, and, as you know, Allah, will not forgive shirk, why, then, didn't Allah say "Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Haneefan Muslims", who, according to you, have no possibility of being in shirk?
PBM Please post the ayat where Allah says that being haneefan muslim precludes one from reneging and turning back from faith/this possibility is nullified. You are simply extrapolating and assigning this value to this term.
No, thats my interpretation of 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen'. If one's being is free from shirik, then the possibility of reneging isn't there.
I'm not concerned with your interpretation, I'm concerned with what you KNOW is Quranic fact. Allah says
733 Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made HARAM are shameful deeds...and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
1736 And do not pursue/follow pursue that of which you have no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
I will respond to the rest of your post once you've Quranically cleared up the above.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salaams PB, MQuran,
Where does it say making idols is shirk?Just that I can?t recall.
Aren?t the following Ayah?s about Shirkists?
022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.Why are these people being judged ,yet they do Shirk?
So where does it say shirkists are unforgivable?
Salaams.
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PEACE, MZ357,
You said
2217 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.
Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable? Why on earth will you or anybody judge someone if they arn?t going to have a chance?
The chance that people have is right here on earth
- Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Once the individual crosses over to the next life, their book of deeds is sealed; there is no way for the individual to repent once he/she has died
- Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Now, according to the following ayat, if one dies a polytheist, then, Hell is that individuals destination and that is the judgement
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
I will say it again
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one, who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
We need to identify what is associating ? to my knowledge we associate when we do Zulm, when we are Zalim because then we do obey other then Allah or act in opposition to Allah ? now that is associating , and simply creating idols is not associating.
People going around stone structures or bowing to idols is not Associating at all because we are not acting in opposition to the nature of Allah/T he attributes
.Let me repeat what I said yesterday and make an addition to further clarify what I mean
Main Entry GUIDANCE/Al-QURAN the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
When an individual takes some being, some inanimate object, someone or some "philosophy", along with or exclusive to Allah for their guidance, then that individual is associating with Allah. To associate, doesn't simply mean to worship an inanimate object, it also means to take someone's guidance, that is, to take that individuals philosophy i.e. the Bukahri and Co./the Sunnah, as guidance along with Allah's Quran.
Allah has made it clear that, He will not accept/forgive the giving of partners to Him (partners in man's guidance), unless, the individual, prior to seeing the coming of death, repents of it. After that...all bets are off.
Btw, do you reject the above defintion of guidance?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Dear PBM,
Quote
Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirikHere's what you wrote. I'm not proceeding with the discussion till you tell me
- where the 'last prophet' appears in the quran
- what this statement that the last prophet isnt associated with shirik has to do with me? Are you a prophet-worshipper? If not, why even mention him.
unless you actually address these points, im not continuing. Bye
