The Fast of Ramadan: The only one which is universal!

Bilal76

Peace

this is an extract of an article of which I wished to make you share the wisdom of his contents

Time of the fast the Jews, the Christians and the Hindus live at the rate/rhythm of the solar year, either directly, or by the intermediary of a lunar calendar with intercalary days. Thus the time of the fast always returns at the same season. The Moslems follow a purely lunar calendar, and by consequence their time of fast, the month of Ramadh?n, passes successively by every season of the year. Which is the preferable system with the other? The terrestrial sphere on which we do live does not know the same climate everywhere? The man suffers from the excessive temperatures, which they are too hot or too cold. The hot seasons and the cold seasons are not in the same way felt an area with another poles (in Canada, in the north of Europe for example). The summer is the best, season close to the poles, but absolutely not close to the equator and in the sandy deserts. Spring can be one moderated season, but several countries close to the equator (south of India for example) do not know it, because there is that three seasons The winter, the summer and the rain season. In a religion with universal vocation, a fast fixed in one given season will thus bring constantly of the advantages to the ones, constantly of the difficulties to the others, or an embarrassment at least, for the inhabitants of such areas. But if the seasons of the fast change regularly, there will be alternation of the advantages and the difficulties, and no one will not be caught any to the legislator. Moreover rotation will accustom each one to fast in any season. This drive, this capacity to abstain from eating during one cold winter or an extreme summer will give to believing endurance which will be useful to them in the adversity. Moreover, those which travelled a little know that the seasons are not the same ones everywhere at the same time I write in January, and the radio advertisement that in certain points of France, it fact-40. At the same time in Argentina, it makes +40. The seasons are reversed on both sides equator when it is the winter in the northern hemisphere, it is the summer in the southern hemisphere, and vice versa. If Islam had ordered the fast, let us put, in January of each year, it would be always in winter for certain Moslems, always in summer for others. Or if Islam had ordered the fast, let us put, in winter, the ones would fast in January, others in July, this involving a continual difficulty for the inhabitants of certain areas like one saw it higher, and an absence of unit. Having fasted to Paris, January 29, I would arrive after a few hours of flight to South Africa, and with my great distress no mosque would prepare the festival of A?d there because it would not be the season of the fast! I could also entirely avoid the fast I would leave Paris at the end of December to spend one month to South Africa (where January would not be the month of the fast). I regain Paris in February and would quietly neglect the fast of July (which would be practised in South Africa, but not in the northern hemisphere where Paris is). In other terms, no world community could observe the fast while basing itself over the solar year without causing of embarrassment to its faithful. A fast based over the solar year would be appropriate for a regional religion, while not getting however on the its faithful occasion to fast in all seasons. A fast based on a lunar calendar thus seems the most reasonable formula and best adapted to the interests of the company. It is at the same time the only practical solution of the problem for a world community.

http//pakistan.ifrance.com/articles/pourquoijeuner.htm

Peace

mo_mentum

Salaaam brother!

I tottally agree with your text there. The Muslim lunar calendar is ideal for a universal faith that needs to accomodate to people from all over. I feel that those who want to reorganize the calendar are only seeing things from a Western perspective of harvest moons and other outdated ideas.

SwedenMajidah

salaam,

But haven't u have a thought of the night of Qadr!?

The night when Quran were revailed.

If this was in the month of Ramadhan then Ramadhan must be in the same period every year how else can we get inspired of the night of alQadr!?

Peace
Sis Majidah

mo_mentum

It's the same night on the Lunar cycle....what's the problem? Plus, we never know when Laylat-al-Qadr is exactly..hence we have to wait for it the last 10 days of the month..to search for it and devote ourselves to God on every night of the last 10 days as though that was the night itself.

SwedenMajidah

salaam,

well i'm not so sure about this really.

And who have said it is the 10 last days of the month of Ramadhan Al-Qadr can be?

It can be in the 10 first days of the month of Ramadhan.

Because u start fast when u have witness the moon and then begin to fast so logically it must be in those 10 first days.

And some says that it is only 10 days we shall fast and if that's true then this goes for them too )

Peace
Sis Majidah

mo_mentum

Salaam Sis,

Yes but i think you're still stuck in the Solar concept of a calendar, where a day is the same day only if it falls on the same seasonal time period as the previous year.

What im saying is, the moon is much better at counting months than the sun, hence, the same day on a lunar cycle is the same day each lunar year. So the night of Qadr is the same whether it occurs in January or in August.

ayman

Peace,

Time of the fast the Jews, the Christians and the Hindus live at the rate/rhythm of the solar year, either directly, or by the intermediary of a lunar calendar with intercalary days. Thus the time of the fast always returns at the same season. The Moslems follow a purely lunar calendar,

No, Muslims don't follow a purely lunar calendar. Ask any Muslim farmer or any Muslim for that matter and they will tell you that they follow a solar calendar for everything from deciding when to plant crops or harvest them or when to go to the beach. The purely lunar calendar is completely useless and thus it is used by Muslims ONLY for religious festivals and it is not followed in any practical matters.

and by consequence their time of fast, the month of Ramadh?n, passes successively by every season of the year. Which is the preferable system with the other? The terrestrial sphere on which we do live does not know the same climate everywhere? The man suffers from the excessive temperatures, which they are too hot or too cold. The hot seasons and the cold seasons are not in the same way felt an area with another poles (in Canada, in the north of Europe for example). The summer is the best, season close to the poles, but absolutely not close to the equator and in the sandy deserts. Spring can be one moderated season, but several countries close to the equator (south of India for example) do not know it, because there is that three seasons The winter, the summer and the rain season. In a religion with universal vocation, a fast fixed in one given season will thus bring constantly of the advantages to the ones, constantly of the difficulties to the others, or an embarrassment at least, for the inhabitants of such areas. But if the seasons of the fast change regularly, there will be alternation of the advantages and the difficulties, and no one will not be caught any to the legislator. Moreover rotation will accustom each one to fast in any season. This drive, this capacity to abstain from eating during one cold winter or an extreme summer will give to believing endurance which will be useful to them in the adversity. Moreover, those which travelled a little know that the seasons are not the same ones everywhere at the same time I write in January, and the radio advertisement that in certain points of France, it fact-40. At the same time in Argentina, it makes +40. The seasons are reversed on both sides equator when it is the winter in the northern hemisphere, it is the summer in the southern hemisphere, and vice versa. If Islam had ordered the fast, let us put, in January of each year, it would be always in winter for certain Moslems, always in summer for others. Or if Islam had ordered the fast, let us put, in winter, the ones would fast in January, others in July, this involving a continual difficulty for the inhabitants of certain areas like one saw it higher, and an absence of unit. Having fasted to Paris, January 29, I would arrive after a few hours of flight to South Africa, and with my great distress no mosque would prepare the festival of A?d there because it would not be the season of the fast! I could also entirely avoid the fast I would leave Paris at the end of December to spend one month to South Africa (where January would not be the month of the fast). I regain Paris in February and would quietly neglect the fast of July (which would be practised in South Africa, but not in the northern hemisphere where Paris is). In other terms, no world community could observe the fast while basing itself over the solar year without causing of embarrassment to its faithful. A fast based over the solar year would be appropriate for a regional religion, while not getting however on the its faithful occasion to fast in all seasons. A fast based on a lunar calendar thus seems the most reasonable formula and best adapted to the interests of the company. It is at the same time the only practical solution of the problem for a world community.

There are several problems with the above line of argument

It ignores the fact that we are clearly told in the great reading that the year is solar

017.012
YUSUFALI We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail.
PICKTHAL And We appoint the night and the day two portents. Then We make dark the portent of the night, and We make the portent of the day sight-giving, that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the computation of the years, and the reckoning; and everything have We expounded with a clear expounding.
SHAKIR And We have made the night and the day two signs, then We have made the sign of the night to pass away and We have made the sign of the day manifest, so that you may seek grace from your Lord, and that you might know the numbering of years and the reckoning; and We have explained everything with distinctness.

We are clearly told in 1712 that the night and day are used to know the number of years. It is an indisputable fact that the night and the day are functions of the sun and not the moon. If you count as 1712 describes then the time from the longest day/shortest night (summer solstice) to the next longest day/shortest night (summer solstice) is a solar year.

It ignores the fact that "al-ash-hur al-haram" have to do with hunting restrictions. Of course, hunting restrictions have to do with the cycles of wildlife, which follow the solar year. Thus, hunting restrictions must be according to seasons that don't change from one year to the next.
It also ignores that there is nothing in the great reading that tells us that everyone in the northern and southern hemisphere must fast together or that the hunting restrictions must be at the same time in both the southern and the northern hemispheres.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

PEACE, AYAMAN,

Would you do me a favor please and list your objections as to why Ramadan cannot be referring to a fast? I'm not asking for you to explain anything, I just want to give a laundry list of your objections/what you are questioning. Your reply will help me a great deal to begin to get a handle on this. Thanks much.

Peace to you.

ayman

Peace PB,

Would you do me a favor please and list your objections as to why Ramadan cannot be referring to a fast? I'm not asking for you to explain anything, I just want to give a laundry list of your objections/what you are questioning. Your reply will help me a great deal to begin to get a handle on this. Thanks much.

I am not sure what it is you are asking.

The proper name Ramadan is just a meaningless label. It can refer to anything. In fact, I know several people named Ramadan. Surely, they have nothing to do with the fast.

As for the common noun "rmdan", it means "scorching". So if I was to translate your question

"List your objections as to why "scorching" cannot be referring to a fast?"

I think that the answer is obvious. The two have different meanings.

The word "rmdan" relates to the timing of the fast because the timing is given as "shahr rmdan", which means "scorching full-moon". This is the full-moon after the summer solstice. So to try to answer your question, "rmdan" refers to a common idiomatic description of the "full-moon" at the hottest time of the year. This "shahr rmdan" in turn is the marker for when to start the fast for a complete count of a few days (2183-187), which is ten days.

I am not sure if this answered your question.

Peace,

Ayman

Bilal76

Peace

In this article, it is interressant to note the fact that to take the moon as reference for the fast allows to all the people to fast the same month and every season. I liked this universal side of this analysis.

If not according to you ayman, to which period of the calendar gregorian corresponds "SH' AR RAMADHAN"? Is this period it same the all year? Do all the people meet this period or this regulation is valid only for those which observe this period?

mo_mentum

Also,

Is not mating season the opposite on northern/souther hemisphere..so to say that the 4 restricted months are for wildlife conservation is nonsense since the oposite hemisphere would not be in the same season.

However..i can see that the 4 months, if not consecutive..can work for wildlife conservation since in its rotation..it would take into account different areas. and also, in order not to allow overpopulation..which does happen..the non hunting season changes....so its a 19year cycle right?

oh AND..how do u explain the difference in the use of the word NAHAR and YAWM for the word DAY. and then SANA and 3AM for years. "traditioanl" scholars see the latter 2 as the difference between a solar and lunar year.

zenje

Is not mating season the opposite on northern/souther hemisphere..so to say that the 4 restricted months are for wildlife conservation is nonsense since the oposite hemisphere would not be in the same season.
So just for clarification (NOT to debate), you're saying it's nonsense because it not the same in northern and southern hemispheres?... In other words, it doens't make sense that not everyone in the world is fasting together?

Thanks )

mo_mentum

hehe no im saying that if the restricted months were for strictly wildlife preservation, and not just necessarily "holy", it would make more sense that they move aroudn the year and they NOT be consecutive, since mating season isnt the same in both hemispheres AND you also need phases of culling herds.

Hence makes more sense that the lunar calendar is shiftign to take this into account, rather than having an Islamic calendar that is stuck to the seasons as per the sticky article.

ayman

Peace,

In this article, it is interressant to note the fact that to take the moon as reference for the fast allows to all the people to fast the same month and every season. I liked this universal side of this analysis.

What you or I like doesn't matter when it comes to the truth. What matters is what The God is telling us in the great reading. There is nothing in the great reading that says that we should follow a purely lunar calendar or that the fast is at different times each year and there is no evidence in the great reading or anywhere that the prophet used to fast at different times each year as you would like to do.

If not according to you ayman, to which period of the calendar gregorian corresponds "SH' AR RAMADHAN"? Is this period it same the all year? Do all the people meet this period or this regulation is valid only for those which observe this period?

For the answer to your questions, please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace,

Is not mating season the opposite on northern/souther hemisphere..so to say that the 4 restricted months are for wildlife conservation is nonsense since the oposite hemisphere would not be in the same season.

Who said that the four restricted "shahr" have to be the same in the northern and southern hemisphere? The marker "shahr rmdan" (the "scorching full-moon" after the summer solstice) will occur at different times in the northern and southern hemisphere because the solstice occurs at different times.

However..i can see that the 4 months, if not consecutive..can work for wildlife conservation since in its rotation..it would take into account different areas. and also, in order not to allow overpopulation..which does happen..the non hunting season changes....so its a 19year cycle right?

All hunting restrictions for different animals happen on the same time each year. For the majority of animals and birds, their hunting is restricted in the summer because that is when they mostly give birth or when their young have recently been born. Hunting is restricted because if a hunter kills a female animal, he will not just be killing her. He will be killing her and all her newborn children who will surely die if their mother doesn't take care of them. By early fall, the young animals and birds will be old enough to fend for themselves and the hunting restrictions are lifted.

oh AND..how do u explain the difference in the use of the word NAHAR and YAWM for the word DAY.

The word "nahar" means "daylight" and the word "layl" means "night". The word "yawm" means "day". However, in English the word "day" can also mean "daylight" in addition to its regular meaning of a 24 hour period. So for example, one can say "I will meet you by day" to mean "I will meet you during daylight". This is a property of the English language that has nothing to do with Arabic.

and then SANA and 3AM for years. "traditioanl" scholars see the latter 2 as the difference between a solar and lunar year.

Which one do they consider solar and which one lunar? At any rate, according to the great reading the traditional scholars are wrong. BOTH "sana" and "3am" are used to denote a solar year. I already showed you 1712, which leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is primarily solar. Also, 1247-49 talks about "3am" in the context of agricultural cycles and planning of cultivation and harvest of crops that is done according to seasons that don't change from one year to the next (i.e. a solar timing). So this leaves no doubt that "3am" is also a solar year.

There is absolutely nothing in the great reading that says that the year is purely lunar. In addition to 1712, according to 105, the year is luni-solar because both the sun and the moon are mentioned as factors in learning the number of years.

hehe no im saying that if the restricted months were for strictly wildlife preservation, and not just necessarily "holy", it would make more sense that they move aroudn the year and they NOT be consecutive, since mating season isnt the same in both hemispheres AND you also need phases of culling herds.

The ONLY thing that is restricted during the restriction period is hunting. So if not wildlife preservation what are the hunting restrictions for?

The birthing season for the majority of animals occurs at the same time (summer) in both hemispheres.

You can either show evidence of countries that have hunting restrictions according to a lunar calendar, if any, have better wild life conservation or don't make such baseless claims.

Hence makes more sense that the lunar calendar is shiftign to take this into account, rather than having an Islamic calendar that is stuck to the seasons as per the sticky article.

Again, you can have a useless lunar calendar if you like it but don't claim that The God ordered such calendar or that it is somehow useful for wild life conservation without bringing any evidence.

The sticky article in the forum contains some inaccuracies. Please see the following article for a better interpretation
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm

Peace,

Ayman

truth

What im saying is, the moon is much better at counting months than the sun, hence, the same day on a lunar cycle is the same day each lunar year. So the night of Qadr is the same whether it occurs in January or in August.

Peace Bilal76, mo.mentum, all,

I think you are taking the concept of a "lunar year" too literally.

A year is by modern definition one cycle of the earth around the sun. The reason why the sun is important as a central defining feature of the measurement of a calendar is that a day is so fundamentally linked to it.

The day being the fundamental way all creatures define their lives activities - work and sleep. The moon does not relate to our lives so fundamentally.

Look around you and you can see the signs. The migration of animals happens at the same part of a solar year and does not relate to "lunar years".

The God gives us ways to search and understand the things around us. Modern science can calculate a year to picosecond intervals. Anyone who advocates a fully lunar method to measure time is simply living in a backward time.

As it relates to fasting, why can't the fast be relative to the place on earth someone lives?

Afterall the time at which you start and break your fast is entirely dependent on local things so that the sun (note again it's the sun determining this) rises and sets at different times based on your lattitude. So local factors do matter.

Now the fact there is at least this variablity should mean that the entire time of fasting could be shifted to a completely other time and still be OK with respect to local factors. Afterall the God says that you can fast an equivalent number of other days - so its always acceptable.

So where does that leave us?

If everyone fasted once they saw the first full moon following the summer solstice - June 22 and December 22 in the Northern and Southern hemispheres then they would all be fasting at equivalent times and conditions.

We know that Ramadan relates to a time of heat and this time would correspond always to a time of heat.

In terms of the "forbidden months"; if you examine the verses carefully they have a relation to stipulated times of no fighting in almost every mention - ie. they are related to agreements to pacts of peace and are not defined as specific times of any sort. When the God says that changing the forbidden months is a sign of excessive disbelief the meaning is the breaking of agreements between parties unilaterally - so that a time which has been specified as being free of fighting is dishonoured and fighting occurs (thus the forbidden months are changed).

The meeting (hajj) is in well known months or specified months. Again this refers to a time that is agreed upon and by broadcasting (word of mouth or other means) well known. That makes it specified and well known - it is not fixed according to any magic formula like Easter.

So it can be at any time of the year believers make agreement for it to be.

Remember that the God does not wish to cause hardship. That's the sign of a true universal way where local factors can and do matter.

Regards.

mo_mentum

sigh

So 'splain this

106 He is the One who made the sun to emit light, and the moon to reflect it, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except for truth. He details the revelations for a people who know.

Why would Allah say this about the moon. Yet you are completing disregarding any use of the moon for yearly calculations?

2189 They ask you regarding the new moons, Say "They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for the Hajj." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.

You forget one thing, yes Allah doesn't want hardship on us, but He also wants us to do things in a certain way. To deny the Hijri calendar completely is ludicrous. You're following your own whims on this issue. Also, you can choose to ignore the Hadith on this matter, but you cannot ignore historical reports and the practice of following the calendar since the prophet's time. It's not always about what is most logical, some things are counter-intuitive. So I'm still unconvinced that the current Lunar Calendar is flawed and that for 1400 years, no one has ever bothered to notice what you claim you find in the Qur'an.

There have been many Qur'an Only sects in the past, Free-Minds and Submitters are not the first. Surely, they would've exposed something like this as well. Not to mention that people would've resisted any change to the calendar that the prophet lived by, if it was altered. So either you're saying the prophet was confused by living according to the Lunar Calendar, and hence he loses all credibility, which means you cannot confirm that what is in your hands is the actual Word of The God. Or the calendar was changed afterwards and thus The God did not keep His promise to preserve the Message and thus has doomed so many generations to Hell. So which is it?

For the pagan Meccans to revert to a Lunar Calendar after the prophet departed, they might as well have altered the Qur'an while they were at it. And this, subversively since they were all reverts to Islam. We also know that the Jews follow a Lunar Calendar, which is adjusted to match a solar year, but they do this by adding a 13th months, but they are chastised for doing so. So to me this means, we are to use a Lunar Calendar, since the very community that received the majority of prophets followed such a calendar, but with their own whims added to it to make it align to a solar cycle. But they were corrected in this practice by the prophet. So again, i still see no proof for using a solar calendar other than for seasons and natural cycles. But did you ever think that The God might actually be asking us to follow what may seem to you as a "flawed" or "non-efficient" system, for other reasons than what you outline. It's part of Servitude to the Master of the Universe.

GRANTED, some Muslim countries are sticking to the backwardness of relying purely on eye witness sightinings to decide the begining of the months, but no where is there contradiction to start computing this and actually be able to make proper calendars so that you can plan your civic life accordingly. In fact, Egypt is about to launch a satellite for the sole purpose of setting a Lunar Calendar based on computation.

truth

Peace mo.mentum,

sigh

So 'splain this

106 He is the One who made the sun to emit light, and the moon to reflect it, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except for truth. He details the revelations for a people who know.

Why would Allah say this about the moon. Yet you are completing disregarding any use of the moon for yearly calculations?

105 He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.

106 Surely, in the alternation of night and day, and what GOD created in the heavens and the earth, there are proofs for people who are righteous.

Note that the verse commences with the sun being radiant - for without it there is no light. The moon is not a light but a reflection of the sun's light.

One can learn to count years using rudimentary counting of whatever regular events one witnesses. But we are far beyond learning about a year and its calculation. We can use the sun and the stars as well as equations unknown to the Arab bedouin.

The God knows humanity will progress. Every living thing lives according to the solar calendar. Trees and plants bloom or wither according to it; animals migrate, hibernate and act according to it. Why deny the signs that the God has presented for us?

106 then again emphasises the alternation of night and day - a solar related event for timing the basic unit of time - the day. The moon cannot give you a 'day' - the moon reflects light from the sun.

It's not disregarding the moon - the moon allowed people to learn - but we have moved beyond it for calculating and we are closer to the truth.

2189 They ask you regarding the new moons, Say "They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for the Hajj." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.

The translation 'new moon' for ahillati is disputed and can actually mean any non full phase of the moon - ie. crescent moon.

There is nothing in 2189 that mandates a lunar calendar. It points out the obvious; that in the measurement of short periods of time the moon can provide a guide. They may be a timing device for the people; but a Rolex watch is also a timing device for the people.

It is merely pointing out that the moon phases can be used to time periods. But this does not mean that a precisely calculated solar calendar cannot be used as a timing device. It's not mandating a lunar calendar - it is stating the obvious state of affairs at the time - not locking people into it forever and ever.

You forget one thing, yes Allah doesn't want hardship on us, but He also wants us to do things in a certain way. To deny the Hijri calendar completely is ludicrous. You're following your own whims on this issue.

There are no whims. I've explained the verses you've put forward and shown you that there is no mandate for a lunar calendar and it makes no practical sense.

Also, you can choose to ignore the Hadith on this matter, but you cannot ignore historical reports and the practice of following the calendar since the prophet's time. It's not always about what is most logical, some things are counter-intuitive. So I'm still unconvinced that the current Lunar Calendar is flawed and that for 1400 years, no one has ever bothered to notice what you claim you find in the Qur'an.

Historical reports would also tell you that a camel is the fastest way across the desert; and that a sword is the weapon of choice in war. The Arabs also thought the earth was flat (regardless of how the Quranic verses are in harmony with modern science; the Arabs did not know it back then). Time moves on. History is history - to continue old practices for the sake of it is foolish.

There have been many Qur'an Only sects in the past, Free-Minds and Submitters are not the first. Surely, they would've exposed something like this as well. Not to mention that people would've resisted any change to the calendar that the prophet lived by, if it was altered. So either you're saying the prophet was confused by living according to the Lunar Calendar, and hence he loses all credibility, which means you cannot confirm that what is in your hands is the actual Word of The God. Or the calendar was changed afterwards and thus The God did not keep His promise to preserve the Message and thus has doomed so many generations to Hell. So which is it?

The things we are discussing actually have nothing whatever to do with the calendar.

Like the previous post mentioned - the time of Ramadan is easy to determine without any precise calendar whatsoever. The first full moon after the heat of summer would be all they needed to begin fasting 10 days. Indeed even if they were wrong about the hottest period and chose one of the three full moons in the hot part of the year they'd still be correct.

And so it is for us - however we have a means of calculating precisely each year the summer solstice and thus it is even easier for us.

For the pagan Meccans to revert to a Lunar Calendar after the prophet departed, they might as well have altered the Qur'an while they were at it. And this, subversively since they were all reverts to Islam. We also know that the Jews follow a Lunar Calendar, which is adjusted to match a solar year, but they do this by adding a 13th months, but they are chastised for doing so. So to me this means, we are to use a Lunar Calendar, since the very community that received the majority of prophets followed such a calendar, but with their own whims added to it to make it align to a solar cycle. But they were corrected in this practice by the prophet. So again, i still see no proof for using a solar calendar other than for seasons and natural cycles. But did you ever think that The God might actually be asking us to follow what may seem to you as a "flawed" or "non-efficient" system, for other reasons than what you outline. It's part of Servitude to the Master of the Universe.

Again. There is no mandate for a lunar calendar. To determine the timing of the important events - fasting one does not require a lunar calendar; and nor does the meeting/debate ie. hajj require it (note above 2189 was explained).

GRANTED, some Muslim countries are sticking to the backwardness of relying purely on eye witness sightinings to decide the begining of the months, but no where is there contradiction to start computing this and actually be able to make proper calendars so that you can plan your civic life accordingly. In fact, Egypt is about to launch a satellite for the sole purpose of setting a Lunar Calendar based on computation.

By your own admission you call sighting by eye as being backward. If you are using calculation and satellites then that is a step in the right direction - there is only one year of significance - that is the solar year that has been adopted almost universally.

There is no justification to use a lunar calendar whichever way you argue it. There is only one thing it does do - and that is impose the Arab backwardness upon a modern world.

Regards.

mo_mentum

Salaam truth.

Note that the verse commences with the sun being radiant - for without it there is no light. The moon is not a light but a reflection of the sun's light.

Obviously.

One can learn to count years using rudimentary counting of whatever regular events one witnesses. But we are far beyond learning about a year and its calculation. We can use the sun and the stars as well as equations unknown to the Arab bedouin.

And that is exactly why the Prophet told his followers to sight the new moon in order to begin the months, instead of relying on the Rabbis of the day who already had a system in place to date the Lunar months without need to sight them. But he didn't want the early community to depend on Rabbis. See below.

The God knows humanity will progress. Every living thing lives according to the solar calendar. Trees and plants bloom or wither according to it; animals migrate, hibernate and act according to it. Why deny the signs that the God has presented for us?

Again, just because nature follows a certain pattern and seasons, doesn't mean that The God's calendar is the same. In fact, in order for us to serve only Him, I think it's more logical NOT to follow a Solar year with its cycles because peoples have fallen into polytheism and pagan worship by associating different times of the year with their gods. More on this later.

106 then again emphasises the alternation of night and day - a solar related event for timing the basic unit of time - the day. The moon cannot give you a 'day' - the moon reflects light from the sun.

Yes, the sun sets the alteration of the day and night. Actually no, the rotation of the earth sets that, the sun is only a light. Plus, look at all the difficulties people have had with setting a Solar calendar, not to mention the intercalation that have had to be put in place. You call that a perfect system? The Lunar model is much more reliable. More on this later.

There is nothing in 2189 that mandates a lunar calendar. It points out the obvious; that in the measurement of short periods of time the moon can provide a guide. They may be a timing device for the people; but a Rolex watch is also a timing device for the people.

The moon sets the rythm. The moon and the earth, according to modern findings, were created at the same time out of a huge cataclysm of two heavenly bodies. And hence, time on Earth is calculated according to the rotation/phases of the Moon because of this relationship. Nothing mandates a solar year either. The word YAWM being mentioned 365 is irrelevant, as it is obvious that what controls the day/night cycle is the Sun and hence there are that many cycles per solar rotation. This is in no way a mandate for a solar year either, it is simply not clear enough and not everyone thought of counting word occurences. Would The God have buried such a gem that deep and end up misleading millions for so long?

Out of curiousity. Have you examined the relationship of SANA and 3AM to each other? Or SHAMS and QAMAR? Maybe there's something there to enlighten us, let me know.

There are no whims. I've explained the verses you've put forward and shown you that there is no mandate for a lunar calendar and it makes no practical sense.

For you maybe 'cause you grew up with a gregorian calendar, which by the way is by no means perfect or precise. More on this later. What you might not find practical makes total sense to God. The solar calendar is purely based on deity worship, it is pagan in origin. Why would the Israelites use a Lunar calendar as well, as opposed to all the nations that surrounded them? In this is surely a hint.

Historical reports would also tell you that a camel is the fastest way across the desert; and that a sword is the weapon of choice in war. The Arabs also thought the earth was flat (regardless of how the Quranic verses are in harmony with modern science; the Arabs did not know it back then). Time moves on. History is history - to continue old practices for the sake of it is foolish.

You forget that the Arabs and Muslims had a long history of scientific progress and they KNEW the Earth was a sphere, I don't know where you heard that they thought the Earth was flat, other than the retarded statement by the Imam of Mecca in the 1970s pertaining to that. If you look at all Muslim maps and Qibla indicators of 8th - 16th century C.E., they clearly show a knowledge of a spherical Earth. NOT ONLY THAT, they knew the Sun was at the center of our solar system. So that argument is irrelevant. Afterall, Arabs developed the Scientific Method, and Astronomy owers a huge debt to them.

The things we are discussing actually have nothing whatever to do with the calendar.

Of course it does. It's the very basics of the whole Islamic system. You still haven't answered how the calendar might have been changed, and if it was, what this entails in regards to Allah's promise. And if it wasn't changed, then the confusion of the prophet and loss of credibility.

Like the previous post mentioned - the time of Ramadan is easy to determine without any precise calendar whatsoever. The first full moon after the heat of summer would be all they needed to begin fasting 10 days. Indeed even if they were wrong about the hottest period and chose one of the three full moons in the hot part of the year they'd still be correct.

That is if you decide to change the meaning of the word Ramadhan to fit your theory. Little do you know that the pre-Islamic Arabs named their months according to the time of the year, and hence Ramadhan, being the 9th month, was in fact after the hot months, since like the Jews, they would add a 13th months to keep it aligned with the solar. But this was clearly reprimanded by Allah and His messenger and so the months are 12, and lunar. It so happened that in that specific year of Revelation beginning, it was Ramadhan.

And so it is for us - however we have a means of calculating precisely each year the summer solstice and thus it is even easier for us.

Ah yes..Pagan summer solstice. Did you ever think that The God doesn't want us to associate anything with Him and hence He intentionally made His calendar follow the Moon-Earth cycle since that is the marker of Earth's Creation in its present form, and has no risk of being associated with cycles and astronomical influences. Yet here you are, wanting to make us celebrate on the same days as pagan rituals, while God wants us not to associate His months with any natural event. Just like He taught the prophet that eclipses are a Sign, and are not connected to any event on earth.

Again. There is no mandate for a lunar calendar. To determine the timing of the important events - fasting one does not require a lunar calendar; and nor does the meeting/debate ie. hajj require it (note above 2189 was explained).

Of couse it wouldn't if you start changing the very basic meaning of the words. Of course Ramadhan's root falls under HOT or whatever it is you guys interpret it as, because that was the name of the month of post-heat to the Arabs. The name of the month itself is inconsequential!

By your own admission you call sighting by eye as being backward. If you are using calculation and satellites then that is a step in the right direction - there is only one year of significance - that is the solar year that has been adopted almost universally.

There is no justification to use a lunar calendar whichever way you argue it. There is only one thing it does do - and that is impose the Arab backwardness upon a modern world.

I beg to differ. First of all, a lunar calendar never posed a problem to Muslim nations, empires, poeples throughout history. Only in the last 200 years, since the European colonial conquests has the Gregorian come into use, and since then has stayed there. So if it seems more universal, it's only by imperial imposition.

ALSO, the Arabs were alot more advanced than any other nation for at least a solid 700 years, if not 1000. You cannot deny this fact, so whatever "backwardness" the Arabs are in right now, has nothing to do with it. I could say that you're imposing a solar pagan based calendar because "it seems to fit better with our world". Screw that, worship the Sun God if you wish....

One major outcome of the Lunar calendar is that there is no fixed relationship between the months of this calendar and the seasons of the year, the equinox, the solstice, or other planetary movements. THAT IS THE POINT!

And now for the "More on this later" part..Let's consider a couple of things here brother

Developing a calendar that stays in step with the seasons has been a challenge for humanity for quite some time, extending all the way to the present. Studies of these attempts show that for more than 5000 years, humanity has developed a number of different calendars of varying degrees of accuracy that try to fit neatly together the days and months into a year that matches the time for the earth to make one complete trip around the sun.

Keep in mind the roles that seasons have played in the lives of people. To anticipate the season's arrival helped people gain food, told them when to hunt animals and when to plant crops. It also determined migration patterns for some humans and animals in search for food or better living conditions. Today, many industries depend on seasonal movement of goods and the provision of services. Selling and providing clothes, air conditioners, tax consulting, etc. all depend to some extent on seasonal trends.

Among other reasons, calendars have been developed as a means to keep track of the passage of time in such a way that the seasons can be anticipated accurately. They are designed to count the days and organize them into units of weeks, months, and years. These units are generally derived from recurrent astronomical cycles, which are the most regular and are among the most conspicuous changes in the creation.

As examples, the month and probably the week, come from the phases of the moon, while the solar year stems from the tilted earth's rotation about the sun. Though, at first thought, it might seem that observing these cycles and measuring them would be an easy matter, it turns out that it is not. Even today, there does not exist -- and cannot exist -- a completely accurate solar calendar that stays in step with the seasons.

BUT..FALSE WORSHIP!

While making the observations needed to develop these calendars, humanity has shown a strong tendency to also worship these heavenly objects. In part, their thinking was that somehow these objects controlled peoples' existence on earth, since the seasons seemed to come and go according to their movement.

The Sumerians, a society that formed along the banks of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers about 5000 years ago, had specialists who kept records of their observations. Since the economy of the Sumerians depended on plowing, sowing, tending and harvesting irrigated fields of plants at definite times of the year, the role of the record keepers became very important. They were thought to be liaisons with the gods, on whose goodwill the prosperity of the society relied.

Years later the Babylonians made adjustments to the calendar used by the Sumerians. After lengthy observations, it was noted that every 19 years the solar and lunar cycles matched. With this information, they worked out a system of calendar correction that increased the accuracy of the solar calendar in staying in step with the seasons.

A major incentive for this work, however, was to appease the actions of the gods whom they thought were in control. The idea was that certain extra days were needed to be added to the calendar to keep it in harmony with the seasons, and therefore with the gods. By knowing when to add these "holy days" in honor of the gods, and spending the days in feasting and religious services, the Babylonians thought they were celebrating the gifts given to them by the gods.

Centuries later, Julius Caesar came to power in a different part of the world and presided over the next major reform to solar calendar making. He kept the major features of the Egyptian calendar that was based on a 365 day cycle, but incorporated the practice of adding an extra day to the month of February on every fourth year. The particular year on which he authorized this practice is called "the year of confusion," because in order to bring the calendar in step with these seasons, that year had to contain 445 days instead of the regular 365 days.

Though the Julian calendar lasted for over 1500 years, it contained a built-in error -- a gain of one day every 128 years -- that kept piling up. By the time Pope Gregory 13th came to power, it was determined that an error of 10 days had occurred. In the year 1582 according to the solar calendar, Gregory shortened the year by 10 days and revised the leap year rule. The Gregorian calendar, as it is now called, is accurate to within one day in every 3,323 years.

Throughout this historical summary of solar calendars, several common threads are evident. They include dominant elements of worship of false gods or some portions of Allah's creation, and an ongoing effort to add or subtract time in order to keep the days and months fixed in relation to the seasons.

The most popular calendar in use today, the Gregorian calendar, retains large amounts of these elements. Many of the months of the year and all the days of the week are named in honor of false gods or pay tribute to portions of Allah's creation. Sunday or the "Sun's day" and Monday or the "Moon's day" honor the sun and the moon. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday are all named after false gods inherited from Teutonic tribes. Friday in particular, means Fria's day. Fria was the Teutonic goddess of love. Can you imagine going to "Friday prayer?"
(forget the whole debate about the meaning of Salaat at this point)

All of the "holy days" that are featured in the Gregorian calendar are tied to pagan traditions. And the majority of the months are named after a false god. Yet, it is this calendar that most of the world turns to, including Muslims. Each year Muslims struggle through Ramadan, trying to determine whether we should sight the crescent or calculate its appearance or do both, while we conduct our affairs using a calendar whose origins and current emphasis is centered on association of false gods with Allah. Would it be fair to say that we might have missed something here?

January from Janus, a god of beginnings
February from Februss, an Italian god
March from Mars, a god of war and agriculture
April from Aphro, a goddess of love
May from Maiesta, a goddess of honor
June from Juno, an Italian goddess
July after Julius Caesar
August after Augustus Caesar
September from septem (seven)
October from octo (eight)
November from novem (nine)
December from decem (ten)

During the farewell message of Allah's last Messenger and Prophet, Muhammad, peace be with him, two revelations were given to humanity. In one of them he formally abolished the practice of intercalation. This means that it is unlawful to add or subtract time from the calendar. In the other, he stated that now Allah has returned time to the shape that He gave it at the moment of creation.

The significance of these revelations is far reaching. Through them Allah had defined time in an absolute way that no human could ever achieve. By abolishing intercalation, the impact is to define the characteristic of time known as interval or duration in time in a distinct way. This means that months cannot be lengthened or shortened by adding or subtracting days or part of a day, and defines each month as a unique description of time. Consequently, Muharram, Safar, ... all represent distinct blocks of time by name.

Through the other revelation, Allah has defined the characteristic of time known as epoch or location in time. With this, Allah fixes the order of the months to a fixed point in creation, that point being the moment that He began creation. From this we now know that when we arrive at Ramadan each year, we have truly arrived at Ramadan. Of course, this is true for all the other months of the year, which is no trivial matter, as they represent those blocks of time that account for eleven-twelfths of our lives each year.

In light of this information, it is clear that the method of assigning names to the months of the year and giving the months a certain number of days, cannot be arbitrary. Or in other words, there are "right answers" to the questions, "What day is today?" and "What month are we in now?" These right answers are provided by Allah through the use of the calendar He has given humanity.

Just as we have the responsibility for striving for the targets and implementing the objectives given to us by Allah in the other areas of our daily lives, this also applies to the method that we choose to keep time. In fact, the process of setting targets and trying to implement objectives is the underlying reason for us to understand and use the Islamic calendar.

Allah has given humanity the special gift of being able to manipulate time. Because of this gift, we can recapture the past through recorded events, whether on video tape, digital media, etc. We can also summon up things to come, displaying imagination and foresight along with memory. Our unique ability to employ past, present, and planned events to manipulate time, plays a vital role in our striving to fulfill our responsibilities and prepare for the future.

If we come to the conclusion that we cannot develop our understanding and use of the Islamic calendar to support planning for the future, then the only choices that we have left are to use calendars that violate the revelations given to humanity as a mercy from Allah. Such a conclusion will result in our continuing to use the Islamic calendar for "religious events," and calendars based on false worship for "civil events."

This means that as we schedule our community activities, we must use one of these other calendars because we either don't know or don't agree on what day it is on the Islamic calendar. It also means that our organizations, as they try to develop 3-year or 5-year strategic plans, must use some alternative calendar. Can you imagine Allah giving us a calendar we can't use for planning? Can you imagine an Islamic organization preparing strategically for the future using a calendar based on false worship? It is, indeed, an interesting situation.

(I cant take credit for the last parts, i have it on a PDF file a friend sent me)

IN CONCLUSION Following a solar calendar is actually pagan worship.

So ya. Salaam!

.m

truth

Peace,

I can only address some of the arguments you present though there is more to criticise (eg. moon theories - rather than cataclysm - the moon is probably a captured planetoid)

The Jewish calendar gives a clue argument.

It gives a clue only as to the best systems that people had in place at the time. The modern solar calendar developed over thousands of years. You can't expect an ancient people such as the biblical Jews to have the right system from day one. Nowhere in their scriptures is there a calendar formula.

All human spheres develop. If you argue otherwise then you would have to analogously argue that other things were fixed from day one. For instance that Arabic as it appears in the Koran from circa 650 CE was the primal language that Adam and Eve spoke. You might actually find Arabs who give you that spiel based on false religio-cultural theories. They even believe that the language of heaven is Arabic.

The assumption you make of a calendar in the Koran.

The Koran similarly does not contain the recipe for a calendar and certainly does not mandate any particular calendar. The number of months is 12 - and that's what it happens to be in the modern solar calendar. The names are irrelevant.

Pagan origin arguments.

By giving credence and legitimacy to "pagan origins" it is people with such mentality as yourself who create the idol worship in the first place. The summer solstice is the longest day of the year. Nothing more, nothing less.

The sun is the God's creation period. How can you ascribe it and its many virtues - God given - to pagan deities?

To dismiss a calendar by ascribing its origin to paganism is short-sighted. You can similarly dismiss astronomy by saying it developed from astrology containing pagan concepts. Would you dismiss the utility of fire because the Zoroastrians worship it, or because the Greeks believed it was brought to earth by Prometheus?

Conclusion There is no mandate for a lunar calendar in the God's system. If you believe there is then bring your recipe/formula from the Koran.

Regards.