The Fast of Ramadan: The only one which is universal!
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Salaam!
I can only address some of the arguments you present though there is more to criticise (eg. moon theories - rather than cataclysm - the moon is probably a captured planetoid)
http//www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/moon_oxygen_011015.html
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon#Origin_and_history
How backwards of you to deny this basic scientific theory that is all but 100% confirmed. It's called the Giant Impact Theory.
Reminds of the Ayat regarding the "cleaving asunder" of the Earth and Heavens
It gives a clue only as to the best systems that people had in place at the time. The modern solar calendar developed over thousands of years. You can't expect an ancient people such as the biblical Jews to have the right system from day one. Nowhere in their scriptures is there a calendar formula.
So nevermind that The God mentions how He made prophets rule over the Hebrews in succession for centuries. That simple fact alone should make you wonder that perhaps these prophets laid down the calendar for them, and that their 13 months was added later on, since humans have such a nack to try to follow the seasons. Innovation. But of course, since you deny Sunna, I can't expect you to even consider the traditions of Hebrew prophets and the potential that lies there.
All human spheres develop. If you argue otherwise then you would have to analogously argue that other things were fixed from day one. For instance that Arabic as it appears in the Koran from circa 650 CE was the primal language that Adam and Eve spoke. You might actually find Arabs who give you that spiel based on false religio-cultural theories. They even believe that the language of heaven is Arabic.
Look, you're talking to an educated Arab Muslim here, and no self-respecting Imam with an inkling of a clue would say such a thing. This isn't part and parcel of Islam as we know it. Where are you getting this stuff from? Arabs think Earth is flat, that Arabic is a heavenly language. All that is claimed is that Arabic had the proper grammatical and lexical structure to allow the Qur'an to be well expressed in its forms.
Whether Arabic is spoken in Heaven or by Adam or whatever is pure conjecture, and most men of knowledge don't follow conjecture. However, it's mostly the NON-ARAB countries that will give you that spiel because they blindly memorize the Qur'an without understanding it and thus think of it as some high divine language... not the Arabs, i should know i am one.
Let alone the fact that we're talking about Arab traders, not bedouins btw, that lived in quasi isolation in the deepest deserts, tucked away from the major empires of the time, left alone to develop. So whatever development in the sphere of language can be said to have been guided by The God to reach a certain sumum in order for the Revelation to take place. Anyway, all this is off topic.
The Koran similarly does not contain the recipe for a calendar and certainly does not mandate any particular calendar. The number of months is 12 - and that's what it happens to be in the modern solar calendar. The names are irrelevant.
If anyone is making assumptions, its you, ayman and Layth in regards to the calendar. The ONLY months that are TWELVE are lunar. You cannot even judge what is a month in solar years!! All solar calendars are purely subjective. The best you can hope for is set equinox and solstice. THAT'S IT! If you had ZERO knowldge of current Gregorian calendar, how would you come to 12 months? Don't tell me it's because Qur'an counts 30 plural AYAM because that would come up to 360 days. The you'd say you can count the number of singular YAWM to get 365, ok so then judge which months will get the 5 extra days. All subjective, this is no Divine order. If you weren't basing yourself on CULTURALLY ESTABLISHED NORMS AND MORES, you'd be just as lost.
The sun is the God's creation period. How can you ascribe it and its many virtues - God given - to pagan deities?
I'm not the one ascribing it to that, I'm saying that humans have a natural nack to ascribe such things to The God, and hence it would seem LOGICAL that He would want His calendar to have nothing to do with the seasons so that we wouldn't be tempted to associate anything with Him.
Are you not aware of the way Islam consider astrology and other related pseudo-sciences. It would seem natural for God to make a system plainly dedicated to Him and simple to keep of track of, that the astrologers and suth sayers cannot manipulate for their own gain, claiming that such and such is due to this or that position of a star or of the Zodiac houses.
In fact, the pagan Arabs believed that rain and other events were dictated by stars and other regular cycles. So again, it's more logical that we are asked to follow a calendar not synched to the seasons, while still being able to tell the seasons.
To dismiss a calendar by ascribing its origin to paganism is short-sighted. You can similarly dismiss astronomy by saying it developed from astrology containing pagan concepts.
That is so not what I'm saying, but whatever.
Would you dismiss the utility of fire because the Zoroastrians worship it, or because the Greeks believed it was brought to earth by Prometheus?
I think you're mixing up your mytholofies there. Zoroastrians were monotheists initially and their fire worship has nothing to do with Prometheus.
Conclusion There is no mandate for a lunar calendar in the God's system. If you believe there is then bring your recipe/formula from the Koran.
Nor is there a mandate for a solar one. This is a matter of utmost importance, if the mandate was there, it would've been ALOT clearer in the Qur'an and wouldn't have needed the articles written here to explain it.
You keep acccusing me of following tradition, when here you are advocating a solar calendar that you're familiar with and you can't see your own prejudices and subjectivity in trying to make it fit the model.
Best Regards.
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Peace,
Salaam!
It gives a clue only as to the best systems that people had in place at the time. The modern solar calendar developed over thousands of years. You can't expect an ancient people such as the biblical Jews to have the right system from day one. Nowhere in their scriptures is there a calendar formula.
So nevermind that The God mentions how He made prophets rule over the Hebrews in succession for centuries. That simple fact alone should make you wonder that perhaps these prophets laid down the calendar for them, and that their 13 months was added later on, since humans have such a nack to try to follow the seasons. Innovation. But of course, since you deny Sunna, I can't expect you to even consider the traditions of Hebrew prophets and the potential that lies there.
The mystery deepens and your theories of paganism come back to haunt you here perhaps.
It is well known that the zodiac has 12 signs. Throughout the year the sun enters each of these constellations that allowed the ancients to divide the year into 12 parts as the sun passed through the constellations. So the division into 12 parts in fact may have originated in this way. In fact there is another sign - a thirteenth (Ophiucus) that was dropped somewhere along the line.
The truth is hard to determine, but notwithstanding this - the present solar year has twelve months so it fits the Koranic dictum for twelve months.
The Koran similarly does not contain the recipe for a calendar and certainly does not mandate any particular calendar. The number of months is 12 - and that's what it happens to be in the modern solar calendar. The names are irrelevant.
If anyone is making assumptions, its you, ayman and Layth in regards to the calendar. The ONLY months that are TWELVE are lunar. You cannot even judge what is a month in solar years!! All solar calendars are purely subjective. The best you can hope for is set equinox and solstice. THAT'S IT! If you had ZERO knowldge of current Gregorian calendar, how would you come to 12 months? Don't tell me it's because Qur'an counts 30 plural AYAM because that would come up to 360 days. The you'd say you can count the number of singular YAWM to get 365, ok so then judge which months will get the 5 extra days. All subjective, this is no Divine order. If you weren't basing yourself on CULTURALLY ESTABLISHED NORMS AND MORES, you'd be just as lost.
The knowledge of the length of the year is arrived at by observing the signs the God has placed for us - not by counting words in the Koran. It is calculated to be ~ 365.25 days per year.
We can arrive at knowledge by study and research. Is that not acceptable to you?
The sun is the God's creation period. How can you ascribe it and its many virtues - God given - to pagan deities?
I'm not the one ascribing it to that, I'm saying that humans have a natural nack to ascribe such things to The God, and hence it would seem LOGICAL that He would want His calendar to have nothing to do with the seasons so that we wouldn't be tempted to associate anything with Him.
Are you not aware of the way Islam consider astrology and other related pseudo-sciences. It would seem natural for God to make a system plainly dedicated to Him and simple to keep of track of, that the astrologers and suth sayers cannot manipulate for their own gain, claiming that such and such is due to this or that position of a star or of the Zodiac houses.
How about prevention of moon worship then? Is it also not an astronomical object? How does your non-association theory deal with that if your entire object of measurement is moon based?
In fact there is Orientalist criticism of the pagan Arabs as being exactly that - moon worshippers and they have found much evidence to support a moon cult.
Would you dismiss the utility of fire because the Zoroastrians worship it, or because the Greeks believed it was brought to earth by Prometheus?
I think you're mixing up your mytholofies there. Zoroastrians were monotheists initially and their fire worship has nothing to do with Prometheus.
I'm not mixing the two things up, but you are. I've explicitly separated the two statements by saying OR and specifying that Prometheus relates to Greek mythology.
Conclusion There is no mandate for a lunar calendar in the God's system. If you believe there is then bring your recipe/formula from the Koran.
Nor is there a mandate for a solar one. This is a matter of utmost importance, if the mandate was there, it would've been ALOT clearer in the Qur'an and wouldn't have needed the articles written here to explain it.
So in the end we come to common terms. There is no mandate for any specific type of calendar so it can be agreed upon to use whatever calendar has most utility.
Remember that each of the God's days is equivalent to any other - there is no such thing as a holy day or time. One can substitute any day for any other day when it comes to fasting.
Regards.
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First off. According to your peeps on here, SHAHR in Arabic refers to a Full Moon. So if The God says there are 12 SHAHR in a year, does that not mean it's a lunar year?
Second, you just lost all credibility in my eyes because you actually agree with the orientalist writing about the moon god bullsh)(t. This debate is over )
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First off. According to your peeps on here, SHAHR in Arabic refers to a Full Moon. So if The God says there are 12 SHAHR in a year, does that not mean it's a lunar year?
Second, you just lost all credibility in my eyes because you actually agree with the orientalist writing about the moon god bullsh)(t. This debate is over
Not that there was a debate in the first place. This thread was about proselytizing the alleged wonders of the lunar calendar and I simply proved to you that there was no specific calendar mandated.
The 'debate' was over once you admitted that.
I wasn't advocating moon-god theories in relation to Islam as the orientalists do - rather I was pointing out the obvious fact that historically the moon has been worshipped - and to think that the pagan Arabs did worship the moon (god) is not unreasonable.
The lunar calendar did not appear out of thin air - it was in existence beforehand and was being used by the Jews - not exactly a high recommendation for it given they were also given to worshipping golden calves - and by the pagan Arabs who worshipped multitudes of gods including probably a moon god. Just balancing out your tenuous suppositions of sun worship being linked to the modern solar calendar
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First off. According to your peeps on here, SHAHR in Arabic refers to a Full Moon. So if The God says there are 12 SHAHR in a year, does that not mean it's a lunar year?
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Yes this is a good point which Ayman addresses in his article but it was one of the things that I found less convincing.
We have two possibilities.
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That the word shahr can have a dual but related meaning - and many words are like that. In 936 then it may indeed refer to "month" in which case the solar calendar is not in contradiction with this.
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That there is some other significance of this that has been missed thus far.
Given that chapter 9 is in essence a treaty or ultimatum, between the mushriks and the believers - and given that the crime addressed around this verse has to do with times in which fighting is forbidden and changing those times in self interested ways for the purposes of war - the verse 936 may be defining things for the benefit of the treaty in question.
Note that the beginning of the surah - gives 4 such periods for the time of consideration. The context is important.
Regards.
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Peace,
It is good to see that you have given up your baseless argument about the lunar calendar somehow being better suited for hunting restrictions.
First off. According to your peeps on here, SHAHR in Arabic refers to a Full Moon. So if The God says there are 12 SHAHR in a year, does that not mean it's a lunar year?
)This time you are not making a baseless argument. You are making an argument based on sloppy reading. Please read carefully what The God is saying. He doesn't say "There are 12 SHAHR in a year" (Arabic "Al-sanat fiha ithna 3shr shahra"). What The God is actually saying in 936 is "Inna 3idat al-shuhur 3inda Allah ithna 3shr shahra", which means "the COUNT of the SHAHR is twelve." Look up the word count/"3idat" and you will see that it is what one counts out of a larger population or out of a number of possible alternatives.
Moreover, you are making contradictory arguments such as these
First off. According to your peeps on here, SHAHR in Arabic refers to a Full Moon. So if The God says there are 12 SHAHR in a year, does that not mean it's a lunar year?
and
Why would Allah say this about the moon. Yet you are completing disregarding any use of the moon for yearly calculations?
We can't really be "completely disregarding any use of the moon" while saying that "SHAHR in Arabic refers to a Full Moon". But I guess that if you are sloppy with the great reading, I shouldn't expect better when it comes to reading what people write here.
As for your reading of 106, it is equally as sloppy as 936.
106 He is the One who made the SUN to emit light, and the MOON to reflect it, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except for truth. He details the revelations for a people who know.
Add this to 1712, which again you chose to completely ignore, then you can see that the year is luni-solar. In other words, the year is solar, while the divisions in it are lunar.
As for 2189, please look in ANY Classical Arabic dictionary and you will see that "ahilat" means crescent moons in general NOT just new moons. So it should be translated as
2189 They ask you regarding the crescent moons, Say "They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for the Hajj." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
As for the following statement
IN CONCLUSION Following a solar calendar is actually pagan worship.
A solar calendar is simply a timing mechanism that is in line with the natural God-given seasons. When you time going to the beach in the summer, you are following a solar calendar whether you like it or not. So according to you, this makes you a pagan worshipper. It also makes all the farmers, hunters, and people who do anything related to the seasons pagan worshippers.
In fact, the real pagan timing device is not the solar year but it is the seven day week, which unlike the natural solar seasons is a completely man-made arbitrary timeframe. The seven day week has its root in the five planets, the sun, and the moon that were worshipped by the ancients. Judeo-Christianity adopted this week too as a result of their false belief in the 6 day of creation plus 1 day rest gross blasphemy. If you wholeheartedly accept this unnatural manmade seven day week, does this make you a pagan? Perhaps not, but it does make you a hypocrite for accepting a man-made timing device while accusing others of being pagan worshippers because they acknowledge the natural God-given solar cycles.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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Salaamun
It is good to see that you have given up your baseless argument about the lunar calendar somehow being better suited for hunting restrictions.
Err i haven't. You should give up your baseless argument about the Restricted months being about hunting and OOO what great wisdom it is, yet you could barely designate which months are stated to be restricted, nor do u offer a way to count the months to make them 30 days.
And if they are 30 days, then they wouldn't complete the 365 days (30x12 = 360) needed for a year which still leaves arbitrary judgement on your part to decide which months should have the extra days to adjust. Nor do you explain how you would adjust for intercalation.
Yes of course the occurence of words AYAM is 30 and YAWM is 365, but that still presents the problem above. And if the calendar (something so important) was outlined so subtely, you'd think it was only meant for people in our time to actually understand this. Which to me doesn't make sense.
This time you are not making a baseless argument. You are making an argument based on sloppy reading. Please read carefully what The God is saying. He doesn't say "There are 12 SHAHR in a year" (Arabic "Al-sanat fiha ithna 3shr shahra").
HELLO. Did you see me put quotes? Did you see me state verse numbers? No! I was paraphrasing. Of course the ayat precisely is "Inna 3idat al-Ash-hur 3inda Allah ithna 3shr shahra".
which means "the COUNT of the SHAHR is twelve." Look up the word count/"3idat" and you will see that it is what one counts out of a larger population or out of a number of possible alternatives.
You're arguing over semantics now. What I said isn't different from what is said there. The number of months is 12 in the sight of God. THAT IS THE POINT. Because then you base your whole interpertation on the word SHAHR referring to MOONS and not specifically MONTHS, in order to make fit your other theory of what Ramadhan is actually referring to. So who's sloppy here?
Moreover, you are making contradictory arguments such as these
First off. According to your peeps on here, SHAHR in Arabic refers to a Full Moon. So if The God says there are 12 SHAHR in a year, does that not mean it's a lunar year?
and
Why would Allah say this about the moon. Yet you are completing disregarding any use of the moon for yearly calculations?
I don't see how I am making contradictory comments, when I am pointing out YOUR contradictions by comments.
a) you say SHAHR is the Moon or a specific phase of the Moon.
b) you point out that God counts 12 SHAHR
c) 12 SHAHR = 12MOON = 1 Lunar year
d) Despite this, you keep pushing a Solar year based on some self-styled month you haven't declared yetWe can't really be "completely disregarding any use of the moon" while saying that "SHAHR in Arabic refers to a Full Moon". But I guess that if you are sloppy with the great reading, I shouldn't expect better when it comes to reading what people write here.
clapclapclap Ad Hominum. Very good. Yes that will shut me up. My argument is flawed because im sloppily reading your super well written article. Good one.
As for your reading of 106, it is equally as sloppy as 936.
106 He is the One who made the SUN to emit light, and the MOON to reflect it, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except for truth. He details the revelations for a people who know.OMG. "Huw-alathi ja3al al-shams dhiya2, w al-qamara noora". I dont see where you get REFLECT from but fine. Maybe "LIT" would be a better word. then.. "wa kaddarahu manazil lita3lamou 3adad as-sinin wal 7isab"
Kaddara what? Kaddar al qamar! for what? lita3lamou 3adad as-sinin wal 7isab! The moon is clearly what is intended to set time periods, and through that to learn mathematics and counting. Al shamssou dhia2 and that's it! God didn't say "kaddarahUM", it's not plural. It strictly refers to the moon. So where's your sloppy reading? Oh right there!
Add this to 1712, which again you chose to completely ignore, then you can see that the year is luni-solar. In other words, the year is solar, while the divisions in it are lunar.
Ok WOW. Now you're recanting but you're doing it in oooh so sly a way. Luni-solar it is now. Ok. So back to problem 1, if it luni-solar, how do you divide the year into 12 months, using the moon and the sun without adding arbitrary months or days or whatever. If it's so clear, make us a calendar right now that doesn't rely on gregorian count and their established months that are completely arbitrary.
Also 1712 mentions nothing about the SUN being the origin of day/night, other than the Night and Day are in themselves Ayats of God's power. The sun has nothing to do with the alteration of the night and the day!! It's THE EARTH'S SPIN! Which is clearly reffered to in 395. The verb KAWWARA.
In fact, the night/day alteration spoken of 1712 allows us to count the days between each new/full moon. Can you count the number of months simply by relying on the sun rising and setting?
As for 2189, please look in ANY Classical Arabic dictionary and you will see that "ahilat" means crescent moons in general NOT just new moons. So it should be translated as
Duh, plural of Hillel. Crescent. Either way 2189 is again clearly showing that it's the phases of the moon that are the timing mechanisms for THE PEOPLE AND THE HAJJ. Again you're missing the point and twisting God's clear verses.
A solar calendar is simply a timing mechanism that is in line with the natural God-given seasons. When you time going to the beach in the summer, you are following a solar calendar whether you like it or not. So according to you, this makes you a pagan worshipper. It also makes all the farmers, hunters, and people who do anything related to the seasons pagan worshippers.
Wow you need a calendar to know when it's time to go to the beach? Ever try stepping outside and checking out the weather? Do poeple really need a calendar on the wall to know that summer/spring/fall/winter are on their way or coming. All we need is to look at the position of the sun and since we already keep track of the sun for prayers, we can tell when the days are getting longer or shorter and know the seasons and the equinox. No need for a calendar.
Muslims have been using a purely lunar calendar for at least 1000 years until european colonization, you're telling me they didn't hunt and plant crops properly because of it? Ridiculous.
If anything, God doesn't want us to follow a natural cycle BECAUSE people have fallen into SHIRK by doing so associating coming seasons and festivals with the sun or the stars because they return to their positions. Your only strong point is the hunting season, which is admirable, but not strong enough.
In fact, the real pagan timing device is not the solar year but it is the seven day week, which unlike the natural solar seasons is a completely man-made arbitrary timeframe. The seven day week has its root in the five planets, the sun, and the moon that were worshipped by the ancients. Judeo-Christianity adopted this week too as a result of their false belief in the 6 day of creation plus 1 day rest gross blasphemy. If you wholeheartedly accept this unnatural manmade seven day week, does this make you a pagan?
So now you're suggestign we also abolish the week? GEE. I wonder why it's called OUSSBOU3, could it be rooted in the number SAB3A? But now let's count shall we? You like to count
The Sabbath was decreed only for those who ended up disputing it. Your Lord is the One who will judge them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their disputes.
According to the Quran the said abstinences are only for the Jewish people. ?Sabbath? is on the seventh day of the week. Not only that, but Sabbath occurs 7 times in the Quran. Woot. Point and match.
Your 365 count for Yawm is indeed the number of days for a full revolution around the sun, but doesn't mean anything or does it refer to a calendar in any shape or form, this is just pointing out an astronomical detail since either way its ~365.25 so needs arbitrary calendars. Whereas counting lunar cycles is much easier and obvious.
Perhaps not, but it does make you a hypocrite for accepting a man-made timing device while accusing others of being pagan worshippers because they acknowledge the natural God-given solar cycles.
Much better than a self-style sheikh ayman )
Peace brother. You need to get off your high horse of interpretation.
.Mohamed
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PS The only solar implication in all this, which is amazing actually is the Metonic cycle of 19 years. 19! 19! 19! 19!
THAT is when the Earth-Sun-Moon reset to an original position. The Sun-Earth position is half the story.
What compounds the amazing counts is that "al-shams" alone in that form occurs in the Koran 19 times! Altogether there are 33 mentions of 'shams' and it so happens that the surface of the sun as a whole ie. equator + pole spins a whole revolution in 33 days!
Also the moon defines different types of 'month'. There is the 'synodic' month which is the ~29.5 day cycle from full moon to full moon. This is sometimes 29 and sometimes 30 days - so it is not absolutely rock solid.
Then there is the actual length of time for the moon to orbit the earth once. This period is actually 27 days. This is known as the 'tropical' month. The time it takes for the moon to appear at the same point against the star background every month ie. lunar equinox to lunar equinox. It is at a slightly earlier phase each time ie. 2 days short of the same phase because the earth is orbiting the sun at the same time and the relation between the sun and moon is what determines the phase.
So it takes an extra two days for the moon's phase to be the same whereas the moon has already completed it's orbit and it is thus at a different point in the sky.
Now when you count the total number of 'qamar' it amounts to 27 times.
Coincidence?
It's interesting to watch the moon every night against the star background - try it and you'll see that each night it is at a regular distance away from its previous position.
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Peace,
Err i haven't. You should give up your baseless argument about the Restricted months being about hunting and OOO what great wisdom it is,
Read carefully 51-2 and you will see that hunting is clearly mentioned as restricted with respect to the restricted "shahr". See also 594-96. Again, all you are demonstrating is your inability to read properly.
yet you could barely designate which months are stated to be restricted, nor do u offer a way to count the months to make them 30 days.
The word "shahr" doesn't mean "months", it means "full-moon" and I did clearly designate which ones are restricted in this article, which apparently you did not read
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
And if they are 30 days,
They are not 30 days. You didn't read the article. You are debating against your own imagination. Here is the link again in case you forgot
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
then they wouldn't complete the 365 days (30x12 = 360) needed for a year which still leaves arbitrary judgement on your part to decide which months should have the extra days to adjust.
I agree. The God did not give us 30 day periods. What he gave us as a marker is a clear cosmic phenomena. Read the article and you will know what I am talking about instead of debating against what you imagine I am saying.
Nor do you explain how you would adjust for intercalation.
You failed to read the article where it is clearly explained how 936 provides automatic and accurate intercalation.
Yes of course the occurence of words AYAM is 30 and YAWM is 365, but that still presents the problem above. And if the calendar (something so important) was outlined so subtely, you'd think it was only meant for people in our time to actually understand this. Which to me doesn't make sense.
No, as far as I know, the occurrence of the word AYAM is not 30. I agree with you that those counts are subjective and not meaningful.
HELLO. Did you see me put quotes? Did you see me state verse numbers? No! I was paraphrasing. Of course the ayat precisely is "Inna 3idat al-Ash-hur 3inda Allah ithna 3shr shahra".
This was not paraphrasing. It was a wrong statement.
You're arguing over semantics now. What I said isn't different from what is said there. The number of months is 12 in the sight of God. THAT IS THE POINT. Because then you base your whole interpertation on the word SHAHR referring to MOONS and not specifically MONTHS, in order to make fit your other theory of what Ramadhan is actually referring to. So who's sloppy here?
This is sloppy reading again and this time you can't give the lame excuse of "I was paraphrasing". 936 doesn't say "The number of months is 12 in the sight of God". It says" "Inna 3idat al-shuhur 3inda Allah ithna 3shr shahra", which means "the COUNT of the SHAHR with The God is twelve." There is a difference between "3adad" (number) and "3idat" (count) and The God doesn't use those words haphazardly as you do.
I don't see how I am making contradictory comments, when I am pointing out YOUR contradictions by comments.
a) you say SHAHR is the Moon or a specific phase of the Moon.
b) you point out that God counts 12 SHAHR
c) 12 SHAHR = 12MOON = 1 Lunar year
d) Despite this, you keep pushing a Solar year based on some self-styled month you haven't declared yetIt is simple. If you ALWAYS count 12 full moons in a year, then you will have accurate automatic intercalation. Every three years there will be a year with 13 full-moons. You don't count the 13th moon because we are told to only count 12 so you skip it. This is the simplest mechanism for intercalation that is not prone to any manipulation.
clapclapclap Ad Hominum. Very good. Yes that will shut me up. My argument is flawed because im sloppily reading your super well written article. Good one.
You either were "sloppily reading it" or didn't read it at all. Here is the link again just in case you couldn't see it above
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Ok WOW. Now you're recanting but you're doing it in oooh so sly a way. Luni-solar it is now. Ok. So back to problem 1, if it luni-solar, how do you divide the year into 12 months, using the moon and the sun without adding arbitrary months or days or whatever. If it's so clear, make us a calendar right now that doesn't rely on gregorian count and their established months that are completely arbitrary.
See the article. Do you want the link again? The God is not telling us about man-made calendars. He is telling us about clear cosmic phenomena.
Also 1712 mentions nothing about the SUN being the origin of day/night, other than the Night and Day are in themselves Ayats of God's power. The sun has nothing to do with the alteration of the night and the day!! It's THE EARTH'S SPIN! Which is clearly reffered to in 395. The verb KAWWARA.
If there was no moon, we would still have daylight and night. If there was no sun, it would be all night without daylight no matter how much the earth spins. So the sun does influence daylight and night. This is indisputable and even elementary school students know it so stop wasting everyone's time by arguing about it.
In fact, the night/day alteration spoken of 1712 allows us to count the days between each new/full moon.
Once again, you are sloppily reading 1712, which clearly talks about the count of the YEARS NOT the DAYS.
Can you count the number of months simply by relying on the sun rising and setting?
Yes. Isn't that what everyone does? To paraphrase you "Duh". )
Again, The God doesn't talk about "months". He talks about clear cosmic phenomena that are used for timing.
Duh, plural of Hillel. Crescent. Either way 2189 is again clearly showing that it's the phases of the moon that are the timing mechanisms for THE PEOPLE AND THE HAJJ. Again you're missing the point and twisting God's clear verses.
But then there are actually 24-26 crescents in a solar year and 24 in a lunar year. The time between crescents is about 20 days between waxing and waning crescent. This is not the timing mechanism for the so-called Islamic calendar. In fact, the present so-called "7ajj" starts on the 8th of Dhul-Hijjah and not with the waxing crescent. It ends on the 10th, not with the waxing or the waning crescents. So the crescents don't time anything about the present so-called "7ajj" as you suppose and its timing has nothing to do with any crescent. Again, please see the article to see how the crescent can be used to time the "7ajj".
Wow you need a calendar to know when it's time to go to the beach? Ever try stepping outside and checking out the weather? Do poeple really need a calendar on the wall to know that summer/spring/fall/winter are on their way or coming. All we need is to look at the position of the sun and since we already keep track of the sun for prayers, we can tell when the days are getting longer or shorter and know the seasons and the equinox. No need for a calendar.
This is what the solar calendar is based on THE SUN. You are also basing your timing on THE SUN. It is the same.
Muslims have been using a purely lunar calendar for at least 1000 years until european colonization, you're telling me they didn't hunt and plant crops properly because of it? Ridiculous.
No they haven't. The farmers use a solar calendar because they need to plant and harvest crops at specific times of the SOLAR year. We never hear of anyone harvesting crops according to a lunar calendar. This is indisputable. The lunar calendar is completely useless and thus it is used only for the purpose of religious festivals.
If anything, God doesn't want us to follow a natural cycle BECAUSE people have fallen into SHIRK by doing so associating coming seasons and festivals with the sun or the stars because they return to their positions. Your only strong point is the hunting season, which is admirable, but not strong enough.
So according to you The God created a wrong natural cycle that He doesn't want us to follow! I don't think so.
Hunting is the ONLY restriction during the restricted full-moons. So it is the most important thing about the restriction and you are brushing it off.
As for "shirk", I think that attributing something (in this case a manmade lunar or solar calendar or seven day week) without authority is "shirk". Again, this is not about a calendar, but it is about natural cosmic phenomena.
So now you're suggestign we also abolish the week?
You can abolish it or not abolish it. This will not make a difference. The only thing is that you should not claim that The God decreed a seven day week when we know for certain it is completely manmade.
GEE. I wonder why it's called OUSSBOU3, could it be rooted in the number SAB3A?
The word "OUSSBOU3" is NEVER mentioned in the great reading and hence cannot be decreed by The God.
But now let's count shall we? You like to count
No, I don't like to mindlessly count.
The Sabbath was decreed only for those who ended up disputing it. Your Lord is the One who will judge them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their disputes.
Why don't you translate "sabat" for us? You are obviously ignorant of its meaning as you demonstrate below.
According to the Quran the said abstinences are only for the Jewish people.
This is according to you or whatever else you are reading NOT the great reading. Certainly not 16124.
?Sabbath? is on the seventh day of the week.
The word "sabat" means "rest" NOT "seven". Look it up.
Not only that, but Sabbath occurs 7 times in the Quran. Woot. Point and match.
It seems from your comments that you are one of those mathematically ignorant who believe in mathematical codes in the great reading. Firstly, as far as I know "sbt" in all its forms occurs 9 times. Even if it occurred 7 times, it is meaningless and has nothing to do with the number seven which in Arabic is "saba3a" NOT "sabat". Again, the word "sabat" means "rest" NOT "seven". This is elementary.
Your 365 count for Yawm is indeed the number of days for a full revolution around the sun, but doesn't mean anything or does it refer to a calendar in any shape or form, this is just pointing out an astronomical detail since either way its ~365.25 so needs arbitrary calendars. Whereas counting lunar cycles is much easier and obvious.
It is not my count and I think it is a false count. The word "ywm" and all its derivatives doesn't occur 365 times. Also, as you point out there aren't 365 days in the year, there are 365.25. So even if the count was 365, it is still meaningless.
PS The only solar implication in all this, which is amazing actually is the Metonic cycle of 19 years. 19! 19! 19! 19!
So you are a believer in Code 19. This explains why you can't read properly. You are too obsessed with imaginary hidden mathematical codes in the text and you don't actually read the text.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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Salaam.
May God shows us His straight path in this striving that we are all engaged in. Ya qallabul qulub, thabbit qalbi 3ala dinika ya Rab.
This is obviously leading nowhere because your whole argument is that i haven't read your article and your entire counter is to tell me "here's the link, go read the article", which i have. And found it riddled with holes and that is what I'm bringing to your attention. What makes your view so authoratative anyway, that you so easily pretend to brush me off? I wasn't alone in dissecting your article, not that you care. Good for you.
All this comes down to ONE thing ayman. Can you make us a proper calendar that everyone can follow based on the The Quran alone? Without all the man-made extras that have already been used? WIth the 12 full moons, plus the "uncounted" 13th? cough it up! I wanna live by God's Will, so reveal it.
As for the "so-called" 7ajj, (i love your belittling attiude, ka2ano nizzil 3alek el wa7i mashallah!), where does it say anything about a waxing crescent? I'm curious. Maybe i missed that part.
And stop anglicizing it. It's QUR'AN. And not THE READING. Wasn't there an epic of an article about how we should use the names Allah assigned to things? Hmmm must've been the other quranite site. Oops i used the Q word! See everyone can put "secterian" labels on everyone else btw.
I'll respond to your full reply later, i must continue my game of CIV4 right now. They have religions added in. Very interesting.
Salaam!
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All this comes down to ONE thing ayman. Can you make us a proper calendar that everyone can follow based on the The Quran alone? Without all the man-made extras that have already been used? WIth the 12 full moons, plus the "uncounted" 13th? cough it up! I wanna live by God's Will, so reveal it.
Ah, the traditional way is so hard to shake off... always looking for some medium or other. roll -
Dude.. stop hiding behind calling others that disagree with your flawed interpretations as "traditional" or "secterian". For all you know, you're the misguided one and have been led to believe that you're personal whim is the only possible logical explanation. Sheesh.
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Peace,
And stop anglicizing it. It's QUR'AN. And not THE READING. Wasn't there an epic of an article about how we should use the names Allah assigned to things?
The reading or recitation is an accurate translation.
We are communicating in English afterall - and all languages are equally intelligible to the God. You may call upon Him in any language and He will respond.
Remember that you must steer clear of associating anything with the God - and unfortunately it seems that in traditional Islam, Allah is an Arab god who understands only Arabic.
The God is free of all that people associate.
Regards.
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Remember that you must steer clear of associating anything with the God - and unfortunately it seems that in traditional Islam, Allah is an Arab god who understands only Arabic.
shock
ooh right.. the arab conspiracy.. i forgot.. shake head
And among His Signs is the creation of the Heavens and the Earth, and the difference of your languages and colors. Verily, in that are Signs for people of sound knowledge.
(Q al-Rum 3022)You have it in your signature.
There's nothing holy or sacred about Arabic, and translating quran as 'reading' or 'recitation' is perfectly correct. There's no conspiracy - there's just too much ignorance amongst traditionalists to understand their errors.
Peace.