Salat solved?
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PEACE, ICHEPHREN,
For some time, I have read the numerous discussions here on salat between those who think that salat is either purely physical or purely "committments." I have often wondered why it cannot be both, since both meanings fit and neither side can claim 100% one meaning in the Quran...The above verses explain that the meaning of Sal'at encompasses the congregational prayers as well.
Allah says that His Quran is fully detailed/fassalna, hence, if there exists an individual and congregational prayer, where then, in Allah's fully detailed Quran, can one find the details as to exactly how to perform the so-called ritual prayer?
Consider the following
Allah says
698...here is a place of sojourn and a place of departure We detail Our Ayats for people who understand.
This present life, then, is a fleeting one and a test, and there are only two destinies awaiting mankind...Hell and Paradise. Allah, is not threatening man with death, because man was created to die, however, He is threatening man with...HELL.
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, as a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks
53...This day have I perfected for you your Deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as your Deen..
Main Entry PERFECTED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
Main Entry GUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
572 ... Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.
187 That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct.
18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
649 The Day that He assembles you (all) for a Day of Assembly,- that will be a Day of mutual loss and gain and those who believe in Allah and work righteousness,- He will remove from them their ills, and He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever that will be the Supreme Achievement.
Now, given the above, Al-Quran, in its purpose/reason for existence, is to guide mankind, and, in that, it is fully detailed, hence, the contents of Al-Quran--the ayats, those things that do the guiding, must be fully detailed regarding guidance. Salaa, if it is a ritual prayer as you claim, must also be a factor in guiding mankind away from Hell and towadrd Paradise, hence, it too then, must be fully detailed as to how to perform it in Al-Quran---so where can one find these exact details?
Now here are my questions
- Do you agree or disagree that, relative to/specific to the above M-W definitions, and the definition of GUIDANCE, as corroborated by the above four ayats that, Al-Quran is fully detailed?
In other words
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Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
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If you answer "agree" to question #1. and answer "no" to question #2, what Quranic term then means...."fully detailed"?
It is my understanding that, the questions I asked, will demarcate the Muslim from the mushrik /munafiq .
Also see this argued on the following threads
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3725&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3758&highlight=fassalnahu
Looking forward to your reply.
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I think the details of salat are given in the quranbowing, prostrating, reciting the quran, ablution, timing, etc. It is plainly obvious to me that there are some salat verses that cannot be translated as "prayer," and there are some that cannot be translated as "committments." Salat means both prayer and committments, so why can't God use a word of both meanings when it is perfectly within the definition of the word? Not owning up to the fact that it can mean both is not true to the spirit of the quran, and I find plenty of people ignoring this fact. We cannot simply stick meanings where they do not fit. For many on this forum, it seems to be a question of "bowing to an idol in mecca." I do not see that...if the ka'ba is the focal pont for muslims(it may or may not be), then it is only used as a common point of focus. I think that I will post something about this on the general discussion...
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PEACE, ICHEPHREN,
"I think" the details of salat are given in the quranbowing, prostrating, reciting the quran, ablution, timing, etc...Salat means both prayer...
There are several ways of bowing and prostrating, so, with this in mind then, which way, per the Word of Allah in His Book of Guidance--Al-Quran, is the exact and proper method of bowing and prostrating? Pleae provide the Quranic evidence for your belief. "I think", is not Quranic evidence.
Btw, did you bother to read my previous post to you? It doesn't appear so, please read it.
Looking forward to your reply.
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I did not read your post as I did not find it useful. I also come from a position of the Quran being a complete guide, however, I came to a different conclusion than you. As to the "proper method of bowing," that is a ridiculous question as everyone knows how to bow. It is a self evident word, and everyone knows what "bow" means. Also, protstration is self evident. "Falling prostrate" is falling to the ground in submission. What do you expect from the quran? "Muslims must bow and prostrate during salat. By bowing Allah means moving the torso as to make it parallel to the ground. By prostrate, Allah means falling to the ground and structuring the body in an almost feotal position as to indicate submission..." Why, when Allah knows that we know the meaning of "bow" and "prostrate?"
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I did not read your post as I did not find it useful.
Then nothing else needs to be said to you...stay ignorant and may you continue on the path that you are on until Allah calls you home.
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I wish that you would not quote me half way. I have been convinced of the completness of the quran for some time, so I do not need to read more verses telling me what I already know. Your problem seems to me that you assume that simply believing in the completeness of the book means that we will agree on the same conclusion...so continue with your self righteous behaviour, hopefully at some point, maybe we will see eye to eye.
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I wish that you would not quote me half way. I have been convinced of the completness of the quran for some time, so I do not need to read more verses telling me what I already know. Your problem seems to me that you assume that simply believing in the completeness of the book means that we will agree on the same conclusion...so continue with your self righteous behaviour, hopefully at some point, maybe we will see eye to eye.
I'll try this one more time. Go to Al-Quran and find me the details on how to perform a raka along with what Allah commands to be recited in each position. Btw, where is jalsa mentioned?
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Maybe I should be asking you if the quran is not enough for you. The quran simply tells us to bow and prostrate and recite the quran. Perhaps it doesn't matter how we do this and in what order. So, is the quran enough for YOU? I am not familiar with the term "jalsa" so please explain.
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The quran simply tells us to bow and prostrate and recite the quran. Perhaps it doesn't matter how we do this and in what order. So, is the quran enough for YOU? I am not familiar with the term "jalsa" so please explain.
Well, does it give the details on how to bow and prostrate? People bow and prostrate differently culture to culture. How would people perform the ritual congregational prayer if the method of bowing and prostrating is left up to the individual? How many times is required to bow and prostrate? What does Allah tell you to recite in each position? Jalsa, is the intermediate position between bowing and prostrating. Are you beginning got see your problem?
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Have you thought that maybe God does not care how we bow, prostrate or jalsa? At some point, I am sure that commonalities would eventually be established among those who do salat, especially regionally. You question is once again moot. I think it's time to end this "discussion."
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Have you thought that maybe God does not care how we bow, prostrate or jalsa? At some point, I am sure that commonalities would eventually be established among those who do salat, especially regionally. You question is once again moot. I think it's time to end this "discussion."
LOL! Oh, so you are sure that eventually commonalites will be established LOL! Do you even take yourself seriously? What, do you know the future for a certainty as well?
Does Allah care or not?...do you know for a fact one way or the other?...which one? If you don't know, then the following ayats makes it haram for you to continue in your ignorance based practices and assigning lies and conjectures to Allah and His Deen
1736 And DO NOT follow that of which you have NO KNOWLEDGE; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.
733 Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds...and saying things about Allah of which you have NO KNOWLEDGE.
2124 Or have they taken for worship gods besides Him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.
1017 Who does more wrong than such as forge a lie against Allah, or deny His Signs? But never will prosper those who sin.
Yes, it is time to end the discussion, because you don't have the slightest notion what the heck you are talking about or doing. I earnestly suggect that you contemplate the above ayats. They demarcate the Muslim from the mushrik.
Peace.
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LOL! Oh, so you are sure that eventually commonalites will be established LOL! Do you even take yourself seriously? What, do you know the future for a certainty as well?
-Is there a reason for inserting such insults in your posts? I hardly think there is any point in replying to you, except for the benefit of those who are new who read this thread. It does not matter whether commonalities evolve or not. If God has told us to establish salat and does not put specifics on bowing and prostration then it does not matter how we do them...or He would have put more specifications. Or does God run out of words?
Does Allah care or not?...do you know for a fact one way or the other?...which one? If you don't know, then the following ayats makes it haram for you to continue in your ignorance based practices and assigning lies and conjectures to Allah and His Deen
-From what I know of Allah's deen, it is also haram of you to deny something that is evidently true and call it a lie. Is that not the meaning of kufr? To hide what you know? There are many verses of the Quran where it is evident that there is a physical salat. I am not saying that is all salat is, I am saying that there is both a physical duty and a duty of committment to Islam and to the prophetic line. For example, 629-10 talks about salat on Juma. Read the verse. It says that when we hear the call for salat, we should leave trading or business and go to salat. When the salat is over, then we may go back to business. How do you interpret this verse? At what point would salat be over if it were not physical? And why the mention of trading/doing business if it were not indicative of leaving behind work in order to do salat? Please explain oh wise one.
Lastly, please stop quoting ayah in order to demean my stance without adding any evidence on your side. Your aim is obviously to insult rather than the education of whoever reads this thread, which is what I intended it to be. If you are not capable of answering my questions or contributing to the discussion, then please stop posting.
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-Is there a reason for inserting such insults in your posts? I hardly think there is any point in replying to you, except for the benefit of those who are new who read this thread. It does not matter whether commonalities evolve or not. If God has told us to establish salat and does not put specifics on bowing and prostration then it does not matter how we do them...or He would have put more specifications. Or does God run out of words?
I haven't insulted you, I simply laughed at this impossible position. Allah has detailed His Quran fully, hence, when it comes to salaa, if it meant a ritual prayer (ritual means a structured method of doing something and not something haphazard), then it would be fully detailed in Al-Quran. You cannot have a structured congregational prayer in the absence of structured ritual method, what are you talking about??
Does Allah care or not?...do you know for a fact one way or the other?...which one? If you don't know, then the following ayats makes it haram for you to continue in your ignorance based practices and assigning lies and conjectures to Allah and His Deen
-From what I know of Allah's deen, it is also haram of you to deny something that is evidently true and call it a lie. Is that not the meaning of kufr? To hide what you know?
What evident truth am I denying/hiding?
There are many verses of the Quran where it is evident that there is a physical salat.
Then produce the ayat where it tell you how to perform it, simple.
I am not saying that is all salat is, I am saying that there is both a physical duty and a duty of committment to Islam and to the prophetic line.
We can prove that salaa means commitment, however, until you can produce an ayat where Allah details how to physically perform a ritual prayer, then you cannot prove your assertion, simple.
Lastly, please stop quoting ayah in order to demean my stance without adding any evidence on your side. Your aim is obviously to insult rather than the education of whoever reads this thread, which is what I intended it to be. If you are not capable of answering my questions or contributing to the discussion, then please stop posting.
I haven't insulted you nor demeaned you. I post ayats to wake you up to what you are saying. You have no regard for ayats 733 and 1736, this is apparent, however, you'd better get in touch with them and soon. I used to be just like you until some people help me to wake up to those ayats. Use you head. Btw, I don't have to prove anything...YOU do, because you claim that there exists a physical/ritual prayer, thus, YOU MUST, via Al-Quran, prove it now by producing the ayat where this ritual is fully detailed. If you cannot do this, then simply admit that and stop saying of Allah and following things of which you have no knowledge, simple.