who is a messenger of God?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

One is a messenger when one delivers a message.

I think we can all agree to that if we have mail delivered to our homes or jobs, etc.

With that in mind, a messenger of the God is one who delivers the God's message. What exactly is the God''s message? Is it the book people call "Koran"? Is it the book people call "Torah"?

We know the instruction in this reading(quran) states that we should ave trust in that which came to us and those before us?

I have come to the conclusion that the God is not referring to his "book club", but to VERIFYABLE TRUTHS that comes to all people. As generations go through life, trial and error brings to light how we should be living. These LAWS are many times written down and passed on. Sometimes the teaching of these LAWS are put into metaphoric stories or pictures.

The God is not asking us to blindly believe but to aquire KNOWLEDGE (that which is objectively verifyable).

There is always a first human being who comes into the KNOWLEDGE of a certain thing/situation by looking at the thing/situation in the context of the WHOLE, and this is prophecy. When it comes from within it is intuition. It is not hearing a deep dark loud voice saying "I am God..such and such", but it is the intuition that comes to you to solve a problem in life.

When this human passes this KNOWING(objective), not belief(subjective) to others, this is the God's messenger.

But "messenger" is not a title, it is an action of a human being. If the human is not delivering the message either verbally or by example, then this description does not apply.

mquran

I have come to the conclusion that the God is not referring to his "book club", but to VERIFYABLE TRUTHS that comes to all people. As generations go through life, trial and error brings to light how we should be living. These LAWS are many times written down and passed on. Sometimes the teaching of these LAWS are put into metaphoric stories or pictures.

Very right. Al-quraan provides the 'clarifying signs' (ayaatun bayyinatun - 10/15) to these verifiable signs in our lives.

Jaxal

But no everyone can be a messenger of God.

Can you be anymore right?? I can understand why every tom dick and harry wants to be a messenger, but to be a messenger of God, now that is a whole new story

wildguest1956

But no everyone can be a messenger of God.

Can you be anymore right?? I can understand why every tom dick and harry wants to be a messenger, but to be a messenger of God, now that is a whole new story

IMHO, only God has the knowledge to say "this one is my messenger".
If we assume the quran is His last word, then as a consequence, there will be no more messenger of God after Muhammad.

I am not against the fact that some people behave as "walking quran" (we should all try to behave like this), and become leaders of the ummah... But I would not agree that these people would be called, or would called themselves, messenger of God.

wildguest1956

One is a messenger when one delivers a message.

Maybe... Maybe not...

Here is the definition of the word "messenger" according to Cambridge dictionary

Messenger someone who takes a message or documents from one person to another
(Cambridge dictionnary)

So, to take the message is part of the messengership.
Muhammad was a messenger of God because he took the message from God (by wahi), and he conveyed it to the humankind.

Peace

Jaxal

SaLaM JM

IMHO, only God has the knowledge to say "this one is my messenger".

That is very true. No human can decide who is a messenger and who is not.

If we assume the quran is His last word, then as a consequence, there will be no more messenger of God after Muhammad.

Its the seal of the 'prophet'. Not the messenger. HEre is the verse

Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets. And God is fully aware of all things.

As you can see, there will be no more prophets. But a messenger ? yes. Some beleive it to be Jesus which by far sounds the mose realistic. But as you say, God knows best. Then again, people also beleive that any tom dick and harry can be a messenger. So... Hmm ?

mquran

Salaamun alaikum JM,

IMHO, only God has the knowledge to say "this one is my messenger".

No, because the messengers in al-quraan say 'i am a messenger of God to you'. Therefore, they identified themselves as messengers too. The problem is, we have loaded the word messenger with a significance not afforded to it by al-quraan. Let Allah do the defining and all will be clear.

If we assume the quran is His last word, then as a consequence, there will be no more messenger of God after Muhammad.

There's nowhere in al-quraan where it says ar-rasool brings a new book. Ar-rasool are sent by Allah with specific functions in mind (3/164, 59/7, 48/2

Here is the definition of the word "messenger" according to Cambridge dictionary

Al-quraan uses the word 'ar-rasool', so we should seek clarifications from itself.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you JM and all,

So, to take the message is part of the messengership.
Muhammad was a messenger of God because he took the message from God (by wahi), and he conveyed it to the humankind

Yes, this is also what I stated. A messenger is one who delivers a message. A messenger of the God takes the TRUTH and delivers it.

There is no statement whatsoever given for us to assume there are no more prophets and messengers, these are onging DESCRIPTIONS and each of us has this potential. SEAL of the prophets IN NO WAY means LAST Prophet. If you are fighting to protect a pre concieved idea, then you will argue that seal must somehow mean "no more", but the God has no difficulty in using the word LAST or END, and this was not used.

The key is in the word "muhamad", which most assume is a real person rather than a symbolism for a character type. Unless you reach this state of "muhammad" you are sealed from prophecy.

Seek the underlying meaning of these stories, do not take them literal.

mquran

There is no statement whatsoever given for us to assume there are no more prophets and messengers, these are onging DESCRIPTIONS and each of us has this potential. SEAL of the prophets IN NO WAY means LAST Prophet. If you are fighting to protect a pre concieved idea, then you will argue that seal must somehow mean "no more", but the God has no difficulty in using the word LAST or END, and this was not used.

The word would have been 'akhir' and further, the word 'abiding' and 'eternal' (abada and khulud) is in al-quraan as well. Its so easy to say it but Allah instead chose the word 'khatm'.

The people after Yusuf had the same issues
And to you there came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye ceased not to doubt of the (Mission) for which he had come At length, when he died, ye said NO MESSENGER WILL GOD SEND AFTER HIM.' thus doth God leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt (40/34)

Notice how the word ends , mariib or 'doubters'. Don't wanna be one of those!

wildguest1956

Peace all

Could you answer to these questions ?

Can we not conclude from this verse that a messenger has to be inspired by God ?

Is it a surprise for the people that We would inspire a man from amongst them "Warn mankind and give good news to those who believe, that they will have a footing of truth with their Lord." The rejecters said "This is clearly magic!"

What has given God to the messengers in ?

And if a sign comes to them they Say "We will not believe until we are given the same as what God's messengers were given!" God is fully aware where He makes His message; those criminals will have debasement with God and a painful retribution for what they had schemed.

Let's assume I tell you "I am a messenger of God".
How would you react ?
Is it necessary to receive inspiration from God to be a messenger ?
Can anyone receive inspiration from God after Muhammad ?

Thanks in advance

mquran

Salaam JM,

Can we not conclude from this verse that a messenger has to be inspired by God ?

Yes we can. Thank you for relying on al-quraan. This tells me that you're prepared to listen to The Word to settle as opposed to your own ego.

What has given God to the messengers in ?

Signs. If you read the beginning of the verse, the word is 'ayat'.

Let's assume I tell you "I am a messenger of God".
How would you react ?

The same way I reacted to Shareef. I asked him to clarify his position and expound to me his program of action.

Is it necessary to receive inspiration from God to be a messenger ?

10/2 above proves your point that the answer is yes.

Can anyone receive inspiration from God after Muhammad ?

Take a look at 3/84 for a sec please

Qul Aamaana billahi wa maa UNZILA ALAINA....
Say We believe in Allah and in what is revealed ON US....

This is a command from al-quraan. Therefore, if we recieve inzal/revelation from Allah, we are to believe in it.

wildguest1956

Peace mquran

Is it necessary to receive inspiration from God to be a messenger ?

10/2 above proves your point that the answer is yes.

So, let's assume the following situation

I, and PB are claiming that we are messengers of God.
So, we are both able to receive revelations from God.

I say that the flesh of swine is haram, and OB says it is hallal.
We both say we have got this information by inspiration from God.

How would you choose between us ?

Maybe you are going to answer "the good opinion is the one who can be backed up the quran".

But what would you do if we say you that the revelation we are getting from God supersedes all previous revelations, like the quran did for the torah and the injeel ?

Well, there have been a lot of new messengers in the story of Islam Rashad Khalifa, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Bah?'u'll?h, etc ....

They have created new sects, and this is not what God wants we do.
Just look at how the shias are divided !

Please reflect on this

Peace

Jaxal

SaLaM JM

Well from my experiance with him, he will choose the one as a messenger who shares the same belief as him.

You have given a good assumption. Contrary to what people might think, humans are born with weakness. Do we all think that ALL sunnis DELIEBRETLY choose to follow the sunnah? Isnt there a possibility that they think they are the right ones? That is why God has never left it upon us to choose who is the messenger. God has done an excellent job himself. Jesus, Moses, Muhammad. All messengers of God. All without doubt proved their messengership. That is the way of the Quran. Of Allah.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Can we not conclude from this verse that a messenger has to be inspired by God ?

Is it a surprise for the people that We would inspire a man from amongst them "Warn mankind and give good news to those who believe, that they will have a footing of truth with their Lord." The rejecters said "This is clearly magic!"

Yes, a messeger of the God is one who speaks Truth, we must first recieve the truth before we can deliver it. The people should not be suprised that the God informs those who strive with the correct understanding of things. The God is near and answers the call.

What has given God to the messengers in ?

And if a sign comes to them they Say "We will not believe until we are given the same as what God's messengers were given!" God is fully aware where He makes His message; those criminals will have debasement with God and a painful retribution for what they had schemed.

The God gives signs(ayat), but others expect messengers to get some magical book, or some super powers to heal the blind and crippled, or some numerical miracle, etc.

Let's assume I tell you "I am a messenger of God".
How would you react ?

I would ask the person to please relay the message they have come to relay. Its not a situation where you are to bow down to this persons feet or anything, it is a very natural occurence.

Is it necessary to receive inspiration from God to be a messenger ?

Yes. Truth comes from the God. But its not about some deep dark voice saying "my son, this is the truth..".

Can anyone receive inspiration from God after Muhammad ?

Yes. Brother MQ gave a decisive verse a proof.

wildguest1956

Let's assume I tell you "I am a messenger of God".
How would you react ?

I would ask the person to please relay the message they have come to relay. Its not a situation where you are to bow down to this persons feet or anything, it is a very natural occurence.

And then ?

Who should you choose as a messenger, between Rashad Khalifa, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Bah?'u'll?h, all the shia imams, and mquran ?

Is it necessary to receive inspiration from God to be a messenger ?

Yes. Truth comes from the God. But its not about some deep dark voice saying "my son, this is the truth..".

So, how can I be sure I am receiving inspiration from God ?

Can anyone receive inspiration from God after Muhammad ?

Yes. Brother MQ gave a decisive verse a proof.

Say We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and

The question is who is the "we" in . Does not the "we" refer to the prophets ?
Please check the preceding verses...

Peace

mquran

Salaam JM,

Many thanks for continuing the discussion in a civil manner. It doesn't matter at all if we disagree. Inteligence and maturity can be shown even in disagreement.

I and PB are claiming that we are messengers of God.
So, we are both able to receive revelations from God.

I say that the flesh of swine is haram, and OB says it is hallal.
We both say we have got this information by inspiration from God.

How would you choose between us ?

Maybe you are going to answer "the good opinion is the one who can be backed up the quran".

Hehe, you know it. Al-quraan is a book which tells you even how to read it. With Priest's discourse about the swine, it was easy to see the non-quranic assumptions he made.

But what would you do if we say you that the revelation we are getting from God supersedes all previous revelations, like the quran did for the torah and the injeel ?

Just a quick point. The 'torah' and 'gospel' (which make up the bible) isn't acknowledged by al-quraan to be relevations. I'll continue...

If you told me that your revelation supercedes al-quraan, I'd have to ask you to produce something like al-quraan. A coherent discourse to guide humanity. In fact, this has been done before. Have you heard of Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism? He claimed to have recieved revelation as well. Check out his 'book of mormonism', if you like.

Well, there have been a lot of new messengers in the story of Islam Rashad Khalifa, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Bah?'u'll?h, etc ....

They have created new sects, and this is not what God wants we do.
Just look at how the shias are divided !

There's a problem with your logic, JM. I will deconstruct, if i may

The 'story of islam' isn't quranic because Islam began with humankind not Muhammad.
These messengers you mention left texts. RK had his footnotes but if you read even Toluislam, its miles ahead of RK , the so called messenger. Bahaullah, MGA also left texts but once again, you will find them unable to produce anything like al-quraan. They did produce some interesting tafseer though. I've learnt some good stuff from both of them.
When you say 'new sect', a sect comes from a parent entity. I don't know your position very well, but looking at al-quraan, the parent entity of 'muslims' isnt quranically valid. These people may be 'muslims' by behaviour but certainly not by socio-cultural necessity.

many thanks again for a well-grounded discussion.

mquran

JM Who should you choose as a messenger, between Rashad Khalifa, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Bah?'u'll?h, all the shia imams, and mquran ?

Kyle, choose me, choose me! Rashad Khalifa'll have you counting and ritualising all night! Plus you still have to go to Mecca! With me, you can go to Hajj in Philly provided you set up God's house there!

mquran

Say We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and

The question is who is the "we" in . Does not the "we" refer to the prophets ?
Please check the preceding verses...

No, the 'qul' in the verse was recited by the messenger onto the people. Therefore, believers in the message would have recited this.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

I would ask the person to please relay the message they have come to relay. Its not a situation where you are to bow down to this persons feet or anything, it is a very natural occurence.

And then ?

Who should you choose as a messenger, between Rashad Khalifa, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Bah?'u'll?h, all the shia imams, and mquran ?

Its not about giving someone a TITLE, its about the information itself. When someone speaks TRUTH they are a messenger, any other time, they are not a messenger. Further, one does not have to pick between people, anyone can be a messenger, you probably recieve the message all day long and not realize it. For example, if you are a smoker and 4 people during the course of your day tell you that smoking is bad for your health and explian OBJECTIVELY exactly how it effects your vehicle(body), then you have just beenvisited by 4 messengers.

Yes. Truth comes from the God. But its not about some deep dark voice saying "my son, this is the truth..".

So, how can I be sure I am receiving inspiration from God ?

Excellent question!! This is the key to it all. The God explains that if there is something from "Him", that it can be VERIFIED! D So what yuo do is take the information and TEST IT! D If it is Truth, it will work everytime, if not it is not Truth.

Say ?We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and

The question is who is the "we" in . Does not the "we" refer to the prophets ?
Please check the preceding verses...

The "we" is all of us.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you MQ,

Kyle, choose me, choose me! Rashad Khalifa'll have you counting and ritualising all night! Plus you still have to go to Mecca! With me, you can go to Hajj in Philly provided you set up God's house there!

lol