10 days
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It has been said by others on this site that the fasting of Ramadan is 10 days, and starts with the full moon after Summer solstice.
Does anyone think that the importance placed on the last 10 days of the traditional 30 day fast could have a connection to these 10 days?
I mean why is there so much importance put on the last 10 days?
Could it be they are the real fasting days , but that over time people changed the meaning of the word Shahr and changed the length of the fast ?...but still kept the importance of fasting those 10 days..the 10 days from the full moon on ?any thoughts?
Peace
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Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Even ones that disagree with my previous post.
Please give me your comments, thoughts, etc..
thanks ,
Peace
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If you want any thought i'll give you mine...
Full moon is day fourteen after start of "ramadan" new moon (correct me if i'm wrong). So there would still be 14 days to go, not 10
Special importance is on the last ten days of ramadan (around from days 18/19 on.... because they thing leilatelqadr is taking place then - even though they don't now when - stress again on night 27....
But the new understanding developped here is that the night of power is the first night of full moon after the summer solstice....
So if it could be importance of 10 days was somehow kept in mind they pushed night of power around...
Well just some thoughts. I do not think that one can go very far with that kind of reasoning anyway - no proof, no basic fact - some thing we just cannot reconstitute for sure.
But i understand your questionning - am on the same path atually - havent made my mind up yet
peace, lk
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Salaamun alaikum,
Even though the quran uses words like
- asyara = 10
- firq = part
- thulutha = a third
- thaaifat = part
it never uses such words in 2/185. Rather it says about SHAHRU ramadhan (month of ramadhan) and faman shahida minkum as-shahr falyasumhu (who ever witnesses from among you THE MONTH, so he fasts/abstains)
Where is the 10 day thing coming from please?
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Peace,
I believe it comes from the fact that the witnessing of the shahr (the full moon according to Ayman) determines the time to fast and not the length. This is in 2185 which states to fast at that time.
The length is determined thus not by 2185 but in 2184 which states that specific days are designated for fasting. If it was the entire month then it would indicate the whole month is for fasting.
The word used to indicate the specific days is 'mawdoodat' which when used elsewhere in the reading indicates a period of 3-10 days and no more.
Also if you look at 2196 the closest example of fasting - there is a ten day fast mentioned there for what it's worth.
Hope this helps.
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Thank you all for your comments .
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Peace Mquran, Silent Salam, all,
Where is the 10 day thing coming from please?
To get an answer to this question from the great reading, one needs to correct the following misconception
it never uses such words in 2/185. Rather it says about SHAHRU ramadhan (month of ramadhan) and faman shahida minkum as-shahr falyasumhu (who ever witnesses from among you THE MONTH, so he fasts/abstains)
The word "shahr" is not used to mean "month" in the great reading and the word "ramadhan" is not meaningless. Using "shahr" to mean "month" and keeping "ramadhan" as a meaningless label creates contradictions such as the following
Contradiction 1
It creates a contradiction between 2185 and 2183-184. I don't think that you addressed this contradiction with this statement
Thanks for the explanation. 2/183-184 to me doesn't even speak of ramadhan. It just speaks of fasting in general. 2/185 mentions ramadhan and so the ayyamin ma'doodat of 184 doesn't apply to ramadhan. Oh well....
The whole passage from 2183-185 talks about fasting and this is clear. The word "ma3doodat" means "can be counted on the fingers", in other words less than or equal to ten. So on the one hand 2183-184 says that fasting is for a few ("ma3doodat") days. On the other hand, according to traditions 2185 says that fasting is for a whole month (whatever "month" means).
Contradiction 2
In addition to the duration being contradictory in 2185 and 2183-184 according to the traditional interpretation, one of the two statements is redundant since supposedly both talk about the duration of the fast. The statement of "ayyam ma3doodat" is clearly talking about the duration. On the other hand, logically the statement about witnessing the "shahr" doesn't make sense in relation to duration. People count a duration not witness it. So the statement more likely talks about witnessing an event, which tells us when to start the fast not the duration. So this way the two statements complement each other and there is no redundant contradictory information.
Contradiction 3
According to traditions, in 2185 we are told that the great reading was descended in a whole month of the year while in 971 we are told that it was descended in one night of the year. This is another clear contradiction. Once we understand the witnessing of "shahr ramadan" as witnessing an event NOT a month then that contradiction is resolved too. Moreover, it becomes clear that the great reading has been always telling us exactly when the night of measure ("laylat al-qadr") is. It is the night of the event of the scorching full-moon ("shahr ramadan").
So as you can see, those contradictions were not in the great reading but were in the traditional understanding. Once a proper understanding is reached, then those contradictions automatically disappear and everything falls into place.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Ayman,
How do you think the tradition of fasting for a month came into existence, if the Readings real meaning is 10 days ( or 3-10 days) ?
Do you think it is a fast of 10 days ? or 3 days ? or some other number?
Do you think the Prophet (saw) , fasted for 3-10 days or for 30 days?
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Peace Silent Salaam,
How do you think the tradition of fasting for a month came into existence, if the Readings real meaning is 10 days ( or 3-10 days) ?
To answer this question, we need to understand how the present so-called Islamic calendar came into existence. The God doesn't decree any calendar in the great reading. The God gives us clear cosmic phenomena for the timing of the fast and the hunting restrictions. Even traditionalists admit that the present Islamic Hijri calendar was invented during Umar's time and the prophet certainly didn't use it.
If one looks at archeological evidence then one will see that the word "Hijri" doesn't appear on manuscripts for over 100 years after the invention of this calendar. So in reality we don't even know for sure what this calendar was based on. The Abbassid era traditions about this calendar reflect the kind of questions that people were asking during the Abbassid era. I quoted a sample tradtion here in the Appendix of the article
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Do you think it is a fast of 10 days ? or 3 days ? or some other number?
2185 says that we should complete the count. Completing the count of a few days is 10 days. See also 2196 and 2827, which talk about 10 being a complete count.
Do you think the Prophet (saw) , fasted for 3-10 days or for 30 days?
If he followed what the great reading says on the matter and understood it correctly then he fasted for 10 days.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Dear Brother Ayman,
The whole passage from 2183-185 talks about fasting and this is clear. The word "ma3doodat" means "can be counted on the fingers", in other words less than or equal to ten.
Brother it is possible also, to count 30 on your fingers. I'm sure you know, that each of our fingers are marked by three horizontal lines. "Slicing" our fingers in three "parts". If we multiply these by the count of our fingers, we get 30.
I don't know if this is valid, or not. I just thought it might help understanding the word "ma3doodat" even better.
I would also like to take the occasion, to thank you for your effort on your article(s).
Nadeem.
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Dear Brother Ayman,
The whole passage from 2183-185 talks about fasting and this is clear. The word "ma3doodat" means "can be counted on the fingers", in other words less than or equal to ten.
Brother it is possible also, to count 30 on your fingers. I'm sure you know, that each of our fingers are marked by three horizontal lines. "Slicing" our fingers in three "parts". If we multiply these by the count of our fingers, we get 30.
Nadeem.
The thumb usually has one prominent 'line' so you have 28 that way.
But taking your idea further, you might include the nails to increase your count another 10; the knuckles for a further....
I think the other counts being 'completed' to 10 make the argument Ayman gives stronger.
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Salaam Ayman,
The word "shahr" is not used to mean "month" in the great reading and the word "ramadhan" is not meaningless. Using "shahr" to mean "month" and keeping "ramadhan" as a meaningless label creates contradictions such as the following
I didnt translate ramadhan at all so what are you mentioning ramadhan for? Im focussing on shahr, not ramadhan.
The whole passage from 2183-185 talks about fasting and this is clear. The word "ma3doodat" means "can be counted on the fingers", in other words less than or equal to ten. So on the one hand 2183-184 says that fasting is for a few ("ma3doodat") days. On the other hand, according to traditions 2185 says that fasting is for a whole month (whatever "month" means).
Once again, the SUBJECT of the passage to alladina aamanoo is 'as-siyaam' not 'as-siyaam fee shahru ramadhan'. I understood this subject from 2/183, kutiba alaikum as-siyaam..so why would I take 2/183-184 as referring to ramadhan when it doesn't?
Furthermore, 2/185 mentions 'Wa Man Kna Maran 'Aw `Al? Safarin' correct?
Why would the preceeding 184 mention THE EXACT SAME 'Wa Man Kna Maran 'Aw `Al? Safarin' if its BOTH talking about fasting in ramadhan? No, I can't agree with you. 2/183-184 is definitely not about as-siyaam in ramadhan. Its generally as-siyaam.
In addition to the duration being contradictory in 2185 and 2183-184 according to the traditional interpretation, one of the two statements is redundant since supposedly both talk about the duration of the fast. The statement of "ayyam ma3doodat" is clearly talking about the duration. On the other hand, logically the statement about witnessing the "shahr" doesn't make sense in relation to duration. People count a duration not witness it. So the statement more likely talks about witnessing an event, which tells us when to start the fast not the duration. So this way the two statements complement each other and there is no redundant contradictory information.
Sorry, im not going the traditional interpretation route at all. 2/183-184 to me is about as-siyaam. You can do it whenver you want. 2/185 is talking a specific shahr.
As for witnessing the shahr, are you expecting a public viewing of the moon? Shahada isn't necessarily a physical thing. Ar-rasool is shahid over us (2/143), does that mean he looks at us ? 4/69 mentions ash-shuhada being one those who are saved. Does that mean that all it takes in al-islaam to be saved is to observe something, i.e. witness it?
According to traditions, in 2185 we are told that the great reading was descended in a whole month of the year while in 971 we are told that it was descended in one night of the year. This is another clear contradiction. Once we understand the witnessing of "shahr ramadan" as witnessing an event NOT a month then that contradiction is resolved too. Moreover, it becomes clear that the great reading has been always telling us exactly when the night of measure ("laylat al-qadr") is. It is the night of the event of the scorching full-moon ("shahr ramadan").
How do you know that this inzaal happened only ONCE? Inzaal happens to people all the time. 6/114 talks about the 'anzala ilaikum' of al-kitaab mufassala. 3/84 talks about 'unzila alaina' of those who believe. So no, I don't take 2/185 and 97/1 are talking about single events. Al-quraan is about us, its not about 'traditional explanations' about the Prophet recieving the book.
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Peace all
mquran wrote
As for witnessing the shahr, are you expecting a public viewing of the moon? Shahada isn't necessarily a physical thing.100% behind you mquran on this one. I read in some ramadan related thread that if one didn't witness/see the full moon he was not supposed to fast roll
In this case it is easy to never ever fast - just leave your head in the sand winkLK
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The thumb usually has one prominent 'line' so you have 28 that way.
But taking your idea further, you might include the nails to increase your count another 10; the knuckles for a further....
I think the other counts being 'completed' to 10 make the argument Ayman gives stronger.
Dear Brother Truth,
Actually, the brighter side of the thumb does have three "lines". The one the top is easier to spot, as well as the bottom one, but the one in between is a little subtle, but still visible.
Though this may be one interpretation of the actual word, i get the impression that '10 days' is more in accord with the Quran. Since i remember reading in the Quran something as that one could fast in "two periods", one being 3 days and other 7. Adding upto ten. I don't know the ayat number, or if it's the right translation. Sorry,
Thanks for your time,
Nadeem.
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Peace MQ,
I didnt translate ramadhan at all so what are you mentioning ramadhan for? Im focussing on shahr, not ramadhan.
I am not the one mentioning "ramadhan". It is 2185 that mentions it. If we are to understand 2183-185, then we must understand what "ramadhan" means. So far you have told us your conclusions without saying anything about what "ramadhan" means. If you know what it means then please do tell. If you don't know what it means then don't rush with a conclusion until you learn what it means.
Once again, the SUBJECT of the passage to alladina aamanoo is 'as-siyaam' not 'as-siyaam fee shahru ramadhan'. I understood this subject from 2/183, kutiba alaikum as-siyaam..so why would I take 2/183-184 as referring to ramadhan when it doesn't?
Yes, 2183-184 don't refer to "ramadhan". The passage refers to fasting being decreed on us in general and how long it is for (a few days/"ayam ma3doodat"). The scorching full-moon ("shahr ramadhan") simply gives the event that we are to witness in order to start those few days/"ayam ma3doodat".
Furthermore, 2/185 mentions 'Wa Man Kna Maran 'Aw `Al? Safarin' correct?
Why would the preceeding 184 mention THE EXACT SAME 'Wa Man Kna Maran 'Aw `Al? Safarin' if its BOTH talking about fasting in ramadhan? No, I can't agree with you. 2/183-184 is definitely not about as-siyaam in ramadhan. Its generally as-siyaam.
The mentioning of "wa man kna maran 'aw `al? safarin' fa 3idat min ayam ukhar" (whoever is sick or traveling so a count of other days) in 2183-184 makes it clear that the period decreed on us in 2183-184 is a specific period that takes place at a certain time and not any period as you seem to think. So 2183-184 gives the general decree of fasting in a specific period for a few days. Naturally, the question arises, when is this period? So next 2185 tells us exactly when that period starts (with the scorching full-moon) and exactly how long (a complete count of a few days, i.e. 10 days) and then ELABORATE for us on the license to substitute days by saying that the reason is that The God wants to make things easy not hard on us. So those passages complement each other and are not totally irrelevant to one another as you seem to think.
Sorry, im not going the traditional interpretation route at all. 2/183-184 to me is about as-siyaam. You can do it whenver you want.
This is false. As you noticed, the passage clearly said "wa man kna maran 'aw `al? safarin' fa 3idat min ayam ukhar" (whoever is sick or traveling so a count of other days). There is no doubt that this statement wouldn't make any sense if one could fast whenever one wants anyway as you claim.
2/185 is talking a specific shahr.
What specific "shahr"? You translated "shahr" as "month" previously. Now you go back and not translate it. Please translate the complete expression "shahr ramadhan" for us so that we know what you are talking about.
As for witnessing the shahr, are you expecting a public viewing of the moon? Shahada isn't necessarily a physical thing.
In primitive societies public viewing is exactly what they did. Nowadays we have computers, observatories and so on that can help us with the witnessing so "shahada" doesn't have to be physically seeing the scorching full-moon. It is like having eye witnesses, finger prints, and even DNA as evidence that people can witness in the case of a crime and all this is "shahada" (witnessing). Even a blind person who has a highly sensitive hearing ability can witness that a certain person was there through hearing his voice.
Ar-rasool is shahid over us (2/143), does that mean he looks at us?
No, it means that the messenger (not some dead man) is witnessing over us.
4/69 mentions ash-shuhada being one those who are saved. Does that mean that all it takes in al-islaam to be saved is to observe something, i.e. witness it?
Being one of the "shuhadaa" (the witnesses) is an outcome that naturally comes when one is not "deaf and blind" to The God's signs. Please read above, "witnessing" can also involve fingerprints and DNA and not just looking at something. Now please tell us how can one witness a "month" or whatever you think "shahr" means.
How do you know that this inzaal happened only ONCE?
The "inzaal" (bringing down) of the great reading happened over many years during the life of the prophet. One needs to understand the difference between "inzaal" and "bayan".
Inzaal happens to people all the time. 6/114 talks about the 'anzala ilaikum' of al-kitaab mufassala. 3/84 talks about 'unzila alaina' of those who believe. So no, I don't take 2/185 and 97/1 are talking about single events.
In all those instances "anzala" (brought down) is in the past tense. So this is not presently happening, unless someone adds new passages to the great reading.
Al-quraan is about us, its not about 'traditional explanations' about the Prophet recieving the book.
Yes, I totally agree. It is about us not any dead person.
So since it is about us, you will agree that we are not receiving some additional passages of the great reading that are brought down to us. The great reading has already been brought down a long time ago. On the other hand, its revelation ("bayan") is continuous. According to 3187, it is the duty of those who were given the book to reveal it (notice the present tense "tubayinunahu" in 3187).
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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2183-185
183O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint,-
184(Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed number (Should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (With hardship), is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more, of his own free will,- it is better for him. And it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew.
185The Month of Scorching Heat, in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.-
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo kutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu kama kutiba AAala allatheena min qablikum laAAallakum tattaqoona
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Ayyaman maAAdoodatin faman kana minkum mareedan aw AAala safarin faAAiddatun min ayyamin okhara waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu fidyatun taAAamu miskeenin faman tatawwaAAa khayran fahuwa khayrun lahu waan tasoomoo khayrun lakum in kuntum taAAlamoona
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Shahru ramadana allathee onzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasi wabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqani faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu waman kana mareedan aw AAala safarin faAAiddatun min ayyamin okhara yureedu Allahu bikumu alyusra wala yureedu bikumu alAAusra walitukmiloo alAAiddata walitukabbiroo Allaha AAala ma hadakum walaAAallakum tashkuroona
According to http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/calendars.htm we should fast in the first month not the 9th.
"A month beginning Autumn, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide and clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Whoever from you is witness to that month, then let him fast in it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He Has guided you, that you may be thankful. " (2185)
Thus it is the 1st month of the year that comes immediately after the Autumn Equinox (which is also the 1st of the 'restricted' months) in which fasting has been decreed.
If Layth's assertion that Ramadan means a month of Autumn is correct then we should be fasting in Muharram not the modern month of Ramadan. Some argue that the original meaning of ramadhan was scorching heat,Ive never been to the middle east,but If its scorching heat on Sept/Oct then it makes since.http//www.muhajabah.com/ramadan-faq.htm
As for the 10 day period it makes since to me..the first 10 days of Muharram..
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Peace JHamza,
According to http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/calendars.htm we should fast in the first month not the 9th.
The article referenced above contains some inaccuracies. For a more complete analysis please see the follwoing article, which is also available on the site
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
I hope this helps.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace JHamza,
According to http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/calendars.htm we should fast in the first month not the 9th.
The article referenced above contains some inaccuracies. For a more complete analysis please see the follwoing article, which is also available on the site
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
I hope this helps.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thanks for the link to the article.
Is the article saying that the new year begins around the summer solstice or that the months of fasting begins on the 1st full moon after the summer solstice and lasts for 10 days? And the night of restriction would be the last night of the fast?
Sorry the article confused me a bit..Im still not sure exactly what the article is saying other than fasting occurs on the 1st full moon after the summer solstice..and then again the next 3 months..Just curious the article states by doing the calendar as mentioned in the article the 12 month yr would always equal 365 days,so this calendar i have below would always be correct?How so since most months would have 29 days(29 days between full moons)and some would have 30 days.To add up to 365 days there would have to be some months having 31 days and some having 30 days...
- Muharram;(Nov/Dec)
- Safar;(Dec/Jan)
- Rabi`a I/Rabi al-Awal;(Jan/Feb)
- Rabi`a II/Rabi al-Thanni;(Feb/Mar)
- Jumada I/Jumada al-Awal;(Mar/Apr)
- Jumada II/Jumada al-Thanni;(Apr/May)
- Rajab al Murajjab;(May/Jun)
- Sha`ban;(Jun/Jul)
- Ramadan;(Jul/Aug)(Begins on the Full Moon after the Summer Solstice)
- Shawwal al-Mukarram;(Aug/Sep)
- Dhul al Qida;(Sep/Oct)
- Dhul Hijja;(Oct/Nov)
Below is a calendar that has 30 and 31 days and begins on the same date every yr..Autumn Equinox(Using the Winter/Summer yrs theory)....each yr would have exactly 365 days.
- Muharram*; 31(Sep/Oct)
- Safar;30(Oct/Nov)
- Rabi`a I/Rabi al-Awal;30(Nov/Dec)
- Rabi`a II/Rabi al-Thanni;31(Dec/Jan)
- Jumada I/Jumada al-Awal;30(Jan/Feb)
- Jumada II/Jumada al-Thanni;31(Feb/Mar)
- Rajab al Murajjab;30(Mar/Apr)
- Sha`ban;30(Apr/May)
- Ramadan;31(May/Jun)
- Shawwal al-Mukarram*;30(Jun/Jul)
- Dhul al Qida*;31(Jul/Aug)
- Dhul Hijja*;30(Aug/Sep)
By using this calendar,the 10 days of fasting would fall midway(on the full moons) in the months of Shawwal,Dhul al Qida,Dhul Hajja, and Muharram if we use the method that fasting is to begin with the full moon after the Summer Solstice.
International Standard CalendarSame as above but with different names)Yr begins on the Autumn Equinox.
- Month 1*; 31(Sep/Oct)
- Month 2;30(Oct/Nov)
- Month 3;30(Nov/Dec)
- Month 4;31(Dec/Jan)
- Month 5;30(Jan/Feb)
- Month 6;31(Feb/Mar)
- Month 7;30(Mar/Apr)
- Month 8;30(Apr/May)
- Month 9;31(May/Jun)
- Month 10*;30(Jun/Jul)(Fast-20th-29th of Month 10/ July12th-21st in 2006)
- Month 11*;31(Jul/Aug)
- Month 12*;30(Aug/Sep)
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Peace JHamza,
Thanks for the link to the article.
Is the article saying that the new year begins around the summer solstice or that the months of fasting begins on the 1st full moon after the summer solstice and lasts for 10 days?The article doesn't say anything about the new year because it is not attempting to define a calendar system. The great reading is not giving us a calendar system. You can use any calendar you want. The only thing that we are given are clear cosmic phenomena to mark the fasting and the restriction period (for hunting restrictions).
The fasting period begins following the witnessing of the first full-moon after the summer solstice and lasts for 10 days.
And the night of restriction would be the last night of the fast?
No. There is no such thing as the "night of restriction". I am pretty sure this term is not in the article. The above info in bold is all that we need.
Sorry the article confused me a bit..Im still not sure exactly what the article is saying other than fasting occurs on the 1st full moon after the summer solstice..and then again the next 3 months..
I apologize if there was something that was unclear and caused some confusion. When writing the article, perhaps I subconsciously assumed that the reader was familiar with the discussions that went on this forum and that led to the article.
Let me correct the underlined part in your comment. It should read
"Fasting starts following the witnessing of the 1st full moon after the summer solstice and lasts for 10 days."
There is nothing about "months" or fasting again. The following 3 full-moons are the restriction full-moons for hunting restriction and the debate.
Just curious the article states by doing the calendar as mentioned in the article the 12 month yr would always equal 365 days,so this calendar i have below would always be correct?
I don't think that the number 365 is even mentioned in the article, let alone any such suggestion. As I mentioned above, the article is not about proposing any calendar.
How so since most months would have 29 days(29 days between full moons)and some would have 30 days.To add up to 365 days there would have to be some months having 31 days and some having 30 days...
Full-moons are natural cosmic phenomena that occur no matter what calendar people use. Next to the sun, this is the clearest cosmic phenomena. All that we are told is that we should count exactly 12 full-moons (in a year) so that we don't violate what The God restricted (hunting wild life). So we should always count 12 full-moons and in the years where we have 13 full-moons, we should not count the 13th moon and this will automatically adjust the start of the restriction period.
A year with 12 full-moons
...^x*-x*-x*-x*-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-^x*-x*-x*-x*...A year with 13 full-moons
...^x*-x*-x*-x*-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x(skip)-^x*-x*-x*-x*...X full-moons
x* restricted full-moons
^ summer solsticeI hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman