Iblis?
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Peace
The point here is this
true it can be understood that Iblis was an angel (from the exception of the malika preseeding the exception), however this will contradict the Quran, because the Quran stated that Iblis is one of the Jinn, as well the Jinn were created from fire as the Quran told us
"And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire."
(27)
1527
"(Allah) said "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said "I am better than he Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
(12)
712
From the above 2 verses as well what was posted before, it is more logical that Iblis was a Jinn but was given a higher status to be up there with the angels, however he was ordered to prostrate assuming the prder was to all who were up there
I lean to believe that Iblis was given a higher status while staying as Jinn, this higher status has put him in the company of the Angels
Allah knows best
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
true it can be understood that Iblis was an angel (from the exception of the malika preseeding the exception),
This reading(quran) leaves no doubt about that. The God comanded al malaikah, there was no other being mentioned and the God did not forget to add Jinn.
however this will contradict the Quran, because the Quran stated that Iblis is one of the Jinn
No, there is just the misunderstanidng of the term jinn. Jinn means "hidden", the malaika are part of the hidden(jinn). That is all that is being said, so there is no contradiction.
Regarding jinn being made of fire, what does that tell us? We are NEVER told what the malaika are made of, so how can that prove anything?
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Salaam Ahmed,
From the above 2 verses as well what was posted before, it is more logical that Iblis was a Jinn but was given a higher status to be up there with the angels, however he was ordered to prostrate assuming the prder was to all who were up there
I lean to believe that Iblis was given a higher status while staying as Jinn, this higher status has put him in the company of the Angels
We werent actually told the nature of al-malaaika, so I don't see a contradiction. Iblis could share some other trait with al-malaaika.
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Peace to mquran, idolfree1 and all
I agree that the Quran didn?t tell us the nature of the substance the Angels were created from, however it told us something very important about the Angels in at least two locations, here is one
49- ?And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord).?
50- ?They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.?
(49)
(50)1649-50
But Iblis did the following
1 showed arrogance (The angels SHOULD NOT)
2 did not do what Allah commanded him to do (The angels SHOULD NOT)
3 did not fear Allah (The angels SHOULD NOT)consequently he can not be an angel
the argument that he was a jinn then Allah make him an angel does not make sense whatsoever and have no proof
if the only proof that the command to prostrate was to the angels, which is not a bad argument at all but its weight is far lighter than the more concrete evidence that Iblis was always a jinn because the Quran never mentioned any change of his status from jinn to an angel
Allah knows best
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Salaam Ahmed,
You're gonna think me pedantic here, akhee
16/49 says that 'wa lillahi' (and to Allah) they make sajda. Iblis never was said to have an issue with making sajda to Allah. He had a problem with making sajda to Adam.
16/50's key phrase is 'ma yu'maroon' (what they are ordered). So is it possible that Allah 'said' (qulna not amarna, or 'we commanded) in order to demonstrate to Adam about Ibliis's nature?
To me, the force of the 'wa iz qulna lil malaika' is heavy, Ahmed. I can't just overlook that im afraid.
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Salaam Ahmed,
You're gonna think me pedantic here, akhee
16/49 says that 'wa lillahi' (and to Allah) they make sajda. Iblis never was said to have an issue with making sajda to Allah. He had a problem with making sajda to Adam.
16/50's key phrase is 'ma yu'maroon' (what they are ordered). So is it possible that Allah 'said' (qulna not amarna, or 'we commanded) in order to demonstrate to Adam about Ibliis's nature?
To me, the force of the 'wa iz qulna lil malaika' is heavy, Ahmed. I can't just overlook that im afraid.
Peace bro
the keyword in 1649 is not "Sajda", it is "Arrogance" and NONE of the angels is arrogant
sorry bro I couldn't understand the second question, can you elbborate please
cheers
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Salaam Ahmed,
To me, the force of the 'wa iz qulna lil malaika' is heavy, Ahmed. I can't just overlook that im afraid.Salam again my friend
as I stated that I agree that this is a good argument 'wa iz qulna lil malaika', but we can't just assume that it means Iblis was an angel because the Quran said the opposit that he was a jinn, so I would rather leave it to Allah obsolute knowledge and abide by 5101-102, i.e. it will not make a differnce to my belief the nature of Iblis, possibly this is an open door that Iblis is spoilting to confuse as many of us as well, Allah only knows
peace mquran
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Peace,
Before this topic races off into a storm of opinion I just want to ask a reasonable question.
Why does it matter?
How is it going to change you or your practices what Iblis was or wasn't, is or isn't, fire or clay, smoke or mirrors?
This sort of business is futile. It's completely irrelevant.
Stop being lured into such meaningless and wasteful debates. Concentrate on DOING things and serving the God.
Peace.
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Peace to you Truth,
Brother, no one's suggesting we divert from serving Allah. However , al-quraan does ask us 'do you not contemplate deeply on al-quraan'. Every single element in al-quraan must have some detail for us. In this case, whether Ibliis was a malaaika or not helps us see the origin of the ibleesian self. Further, this concept of 'iblees' appears only in the book of Adam, which is the human archetypal tale of utopia and fall, in my view. So it, like the rest of the book , is of ultimate importances by way of knowledge. Having said all that, serving Allah is of equal importance but Allah has reserved the day for his service and the night for training and learning.
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Salaam Ahmed,
as I stated that I agree that this is a good argument 'wa iz qulna lil malaika', but we can't just assume that it means Iblis was an angel because the Quran said the opposit that he was a jinn, so I would rather leave it to Allah obsolute knowledge and abide by 5101-102, i.e. it will not make a differnce to my belief the nature of Iblis, possibly this is an open door that Iblis is spoilting to confuse as many of us as well, Allah only knows
It is a powerful argument, isnt it, the 'wa iz qulna lil malaaika' bit. Having said that, your quoting 16/49-50 is a powerful counter-argument. I guess I need more time to figure this out. Thanks for pointing that out, Ahmed.
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Peace to you Truth,
Brother, no one's suggesting we divert from serving Allah. However , al-quraan does ask us 'do you not contemplate deeply on al-quraan'.
The reasons for this exhortation ie. to contemplate the reading is to enable them to acknowledge that the God is its author and to open the mind to its message, and take heed of it. 482, 4724, 3829
It's not to determine minutiae and irrelevancies - in fact the example of the sleepers in the cave and the indeterminacy of their number should provide a lesson here...
Say, "My Lord is the best knower of their number." Only a few knew the correct number. Therefore, do not argue with them; just go along with them. You need not consult anyone about this.
Peace.
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My humble understanding (from some old posts)
Please understand that all the forces that are still called malaika after the creation of Adam (ie, the creation of the human race) have never show pride and have never disobey to the commands of God.
So, you can have COMPLETE TRUST in them, that is, COMPLETE TRUST in the malaika.Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws.
Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika.
When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.
At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil).
The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.
This force, that lead to seek power, exists in the animals too. In the animals, this force is a malaika. But, its human equivalent is not a malaika anymore. It has turned to be the devil.
This is the main difference between the human race, and the beasts.
When a man follows the devil (being overproud, seeking to gain power over the others, to mate with many females), we can say he is behaving like beasts (losing their humanity).Are not God's words clear, and easy to understand ?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31453&highlight=#31453Here is the big picture of the story of creation of man as I understand it.
First, I consider malaika to be all the forces (not beings) subjected to carry the divine will.
The natural forces that cause the natural phenomena like the planets, the see, the wind, the life are malaika.
http//www.toluislam.com/pub_online/exposition/glossary_m_to_n.htm#_Toc428590267Before the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride.
The malaika that are earthly natural forces are the vicegerents of the divine will on earth.
Iblis is one of them.At the creation of man
God announce to the malaika his intention to create man
And your Lord said to the Angels I am placing a successor on Earth. They said Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You? He said I know what you do not know.
All the malaika seem to be doubtful.
Then God explains them Adam (the man) will be superior to them
And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful.
They said Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.
He said O Adam, inform them of the description of these, so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?
Knowledge of the name = faculty of abstraction => conscience => free willAnd We said to the Angels Submit to Adam, so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
All the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam save Iblis.
After the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).The man has free will he has the ability to choose to obey or disobey to the commands of god.
Obviously it is the will of God he can (because God is his creator).There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
To obey to God = To follow the commands of God = to believe (yumin) in God= to become a beleiver (momin)
To disobey to God = to believe (yakfur) in Shaitan (Iblis) = to follow Shaitan = to become a rejecter (kafir)Summary
Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path.
Who is Iblis ?
I think Iblis is the psychological force that leads living creatures to dominate the others (in the same specie), to reproduce more. If Iblis works into animals, no problem it is the will of God. But, if Iblis works into the human, it leads him to arrogance, selfishness, wickednessNow, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31290&highlight=#31290IMHO, the jinn are the leaders/notables among humans.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2714&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0But Iblis is not a jinn !
Iblis is only of the same nature as the jinns !"ibleesa kana mina aljinni" can also be translated as "Iblis was of the same nature as the jinns (the leaders)" ; describing Iblis as overproud/arrogant, like the leaders.
Min can mean "from" or "of the same nature as".
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41918&highlight=#41918
Hope it will help !
(feel free to follow the links...)Peace
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Salaam Truth,
The reasons for this exhortation ie. to contemplate the reading is to enable them to acknowledge that the God is its author and to open the mind to its message, and take heed of it. 482, 4724, 3829
The ayaat above, if you quote them in context, shows that contemplation of the book is necessary for application. See 4/82's context for example, its dealing with political plots against the messenger. And out of nowhere, 4/82 comes in. This shows that the 'ikhtilafaan katheera' in 4/82 is also about its concordance with reality itself.
Let me ask you, do you feel al-quraan has no applicational side but is only a miracle ?
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Salaam all,
Sorry to bump in!
Well I have also read through once more all those verses about iblis.
Verse 1850 is mention that Iblis was of the jinns.
But God is the creator of everything therefore it's important to know that He has created both the good and the bad or let the bad be a challenge for us to reach the good.
If the bad didn't existed then God's plan for us humans couldn't exist in this form like it is here on earth.
It is in our nafs(soul) the bad thought can effect us and that is what iblis is a bad thought.He can be everywhere and God let him be until the time is to an end.
We must fight the bad thought with the good thought to achieve the goal, that's not so complicated after all.
But I'm still curious what Marie has in her basket
Peace Sis Majidah
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Salaam Truth,
The reasons for this exhortation ie. to contemplate the reading is to enable them to acknowledge that the God is its author and to open the mind to its message, and take heed of it. 482, 4724, 3829
The ayaat above, if you quote them in context, shows that contemplation of the book is necessary for application. See 4/82's context for example, its dealing with political plots against the messenger. And out of nowhere, 4/82 comes in. This shows that the 'ikhtilafaan katheera' in 4/82 is also about its concordance with reality itself.
Let me ask you, do you feel al-quraan has no applicational side but is only a miracle ?
Peace,
I don't believe in miracles as supernatural events that break the laws of the universe. The reading is not a miracle in this sense. In fact as you would be aware, one does not find the word miracle in the reading.
This is straying from the topic however and I won't divert it for those who are still interested having already written all that I wanted on it.
So how about explaining how the nature of Iblis helps - ie. what is the applicational side of Iblis being a jinn or angel or both in the real world? How does the resolution of this point help me?
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For those interested in self-study
PRL"]= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk676
1527, 5515, 5539, 5556, 5574
156, 2627, 3736, 4414, 5139, 5152, 5229, 549, 682, 6851, 8122
5332
2710, 2831
225, 235, 282, 2111, 2214, 2221, 2265, 2266, 315, 3133, 3136, 3142, 3185, 3195, 3198, 413, 457, 4122, 4124, 512, 565, 572, 585, 5119, 699, 6141, 719, 722, 727, 740, 742, 743, 744, 746, 749, 750, 921, 972, 972, 989, 9100, 9111, 109, 1026, 1123, 11108, 134, 1323, 1335, 1423, 1545, 1631, 1632, 1791, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1835, 1839, 1840, 18107, 1960, 1961, 1963, 2076, 20117, 20121, 2214, 2223, 2256, 2319, 258, 2510, 2515, 2524, 2657, 2685, 2690, 26134, 26147, 2958, 318, 3219, 3415, 3416, 3416, 3533, 3626, 3634, 3655, 3743, 3850, 3973, 3974, 408, 4040, 4130, 427, 4222, 4370, 4372, 4425, 4452, 4614, 4616, 476, 4712, 4715, 485, 4817, 509, 5031, 5115, 5217, 5315, 5454, 5546, 5554, 5562, 5612, 5689, 5712, 5721, 5822, 5920, 5920, 6112, 6112, 649, 6511, 668, 6611, 6817, 6834, 6922, 7035, 7038, 7112, 7440, 7612, 7816, 7941, 8113, 8511, 8810, 8930, 988
6100, 6112, 6128, 6130, 738, 7179, 1788, 1850, 2717, 2739, 3412, 3414, 3441, 4125, 4129, 4618, 4629, 5156, 5533, 721, 725, 726
11119, 3213, 37158, 37158, 1146
7184, 2325, 2370, 348, 3446
5816, 632
root of iblis
= Ba-Lam-Siin = despair, give up hope, become broken (in spirit), mournful, become silent/confounded/perplexed unable to see right way or course, repent/grieve.
3012
644, 2377, 3049, 4375
234, 711, 1531, 1532, 1761, 1850, 20116, 2695, 3420, 3874, 3875
root of malaikah
Miim-Lam-Kaf
43, 424, 425, 436, 1671, 236, 2431, 2433, 2458, 2461, 3028, 3350, 3352, 3355, 7030
517, 525, 541, 576, 7188, 1031, 1049, 1316, 1673, 1756, 17100, 1987, 2089, 253, 253, 2723, 2917, 3422, 3442, 3513, 3943, 4386, 468, 4811, 604, 7221, 7837, 8219
2087
2102, 2107, 2247, 2247, 2247, 2248, 2251, 2258, 326, 326, 326, 3189, 453, 454, 517, 518, 540, 5120, 673, 7158, 9116, 12101, 17111, 20120, 2256, 2442, 252, 252, 2526, 3513, 3810, 3820, 3835, 396, 3944, 4016, 4029, 4249, 4351, 4385, 4527, 4814, 572, 575, 641, 671, 7620, 859
14, 326, 3671
1675
2102, 68, 68, 69, 650, 720, 1112, 1131, 1231, 1795, 257, 3211, 5326, 6917, 8922
675, 7185, 2388, 3683
2246, 2247, 520, 1243, 1250, 1254, 1272, 1276, 1879, 20114, 23116, 2734, 5923, 621, 1142
5455
4377
= Lam-Alif-Kaf = To send, to send a message, to send anyone towards.
malak n.m (pl. malaikah), see also malak (Miim-Lam-Kaf)230, 231, 234, 298, 2161, 2177, 2210, 2248, 2285, 318, 339, 342, 345, 380, 387, 3124, 3125, 497, 4136, 4166, 4172, 693, 6111, 6158, 711, 89, 812, 850, 1313, 1323, 157, 158, 1528, 1530, 162, 1628, 1632, 1633, 1649, 1740, 1761, 1792, 1795, 1850, 20116, 21103, 2275, 2324, 2521, 2522, 2525, 3343, 3356, 3440, 351, 37150, 3871, 3873, 3975, 4114, 4130, 425, 4319, 4353, 4360, 4227, 5327, 664, 666, 704, 7431, 7838, 974
Wakas
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
I dont think you remembered to comment on my statement that theword "jinn" means "hidden", and it describes the state of our inner faculties, which are "hidden". We read a chapter from the point of view of these "hidden beings", and it is stated that "there are from us those who are good and others on a different path", so we have the hidden "malaika" and the hidden "shateen".
The malaika(faculties of control) are there prostrating to the intellect(adam), but there is another faculty that is there to provide the testing. It is Desperation(from looking at life from the viewpoint of the physical, seperate experience). And this desperation(iblis) creates the rejecting thoughts/emotions (shayteen) which block our receptivity to God's inspiration.
Truth, this is very important because t is teachin s how our inner faculties work. There is nothing that is unimportant, the God does not deal in "idle talk".
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
I dont think you remembered to comment on my statement that theword "jinn" means "hidden", and it describes the state of our inner faculties, which are "hidden".
What does it mean, for you, that the jinn (hidden ?) has been created from fire ? And the man from clay ?
Do you agree that fire symbolizes fiery temperament ?
Peace
