Iblis?
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Peace to you Truth,
Brother, no one's suggesting we divert from serving Allah. However , al-quraan does ask us 'do you not contemplate deeply on al-quraan'. Every single element in al-quraan must have some detail for us. In this case, whether Ibliis was a malaaika or not helps us see the origin of the ibleesian self. Further, this concept of 'iblees' appears only in the book of Adam, which is the human archetypal tale of utopia and fall, in my view. So it, like the rest of the book , is of ultimate importances by way of knowledge. Having said all that, serving Allah is of equal importance but Allah has reserved the day for his service and the night for training and learning.
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Salaam Ahmed,
as I stated that I agree that this is a good argument 'wa iz qulna lil malaika', but we can't just assume that it means Iblis was an angel because the Quran said the opposit that he was a jinn, so I would rather leave it to Allah obsolute knowledge and abide by 5101-102, i.e. it will not make a differnce to my belief the nature of Iblis, possibly this is an open door that Iblis is spoilting to confuse as many of us as well, Allah only knows
It is a powerful argument, isnt it, the 'wa iz qulna lil malaaika' bit. Having said that, your quoting 16/49-50 is a powerful counter-argument. I guess I need more time to figure this out. Thanks for pointing that out, Ahmed.
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Peace to you Truth,
Brother, no one's suggesting we divert from serving Allah. However , al-quraan does ask us 'do you not contemplate deeply on al-quraan'.
The reasons for this exhortation ie. to contemplate the reading is to enable them to acknowledge that the God is its author and to open the mind to its message, and take heed of it. 482, 4724, 3829
It's not to determine minutiae and irrelevancies - in fact the example of the sleepers in the cave and the indeterminacy of their number should provide a lesson here...
Say, "My Lord is the best knower of their number." Only a few knew the correct number. Therefore, do not argue with them; just go along with them. You need not consult anyone about this.
Peace.
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My humble understanding (from some old posts)
Please understand that all the forces that are still called malaika after the creation of Adam (ie, the creation of the human race) have never show pride and have never disobey to the commands of God.
So, you can have COMPLETE TRUST in them, that is, COMPLETE TRUST in the malaika.Please understand that, except the man, everything (the bees, the cows, the wind, the earth, the moon...) obey to the commands of God. The malaika are the forces (the energy) that make everything move, according to God's laws.
Then God decided to create the human race, with the ability of disobeying the commands of God.
When the man chooses to obey the commands of God, he is following the malaika.
When the man chooses to disobey the commands of God, he is following the devil.Before the creation of the human race, there were no devil ; because there were no creature able to choose to disobey the commands of God.
At the same time God created a creature able to disobey his commands (the man), he created the force leading this creature to disobey (the devil).
The devil is a force ; not a human ; not a member of a special kind of invisible beings named "Djinns".The word "jinn" is often used in the Quran to point out the men that are overproud, the powerful, the leaders. Similarly, the devil is said to be a jinn because it is the (psychological) force that lead men to be overproud, to seek power over the others. And the devil is said to be created from fire because of its fiery nature.
This force, that lead to seek power, exists in the animals too. In the animals, this force is a malaika. But, its human equivalent is not a malaika anymore. It has turned to be the devil.
This is the main difference between the human race, and the beasts.
When a man follows the devil (being overproud, seeking to gain power over the others, to mate with many females), we can say he is behaving like beasts (losing their humanity).Are not God's words clear, and easy to understand ?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31453&highlight=#31453Here is the big picture of the story of creation of man as I understand it.
First, I consider malaika to be all the forces (not beings) subjected to carry the divine will.
The natural forces that cause the natural phenomena like the planets, the see, the wind, the life are malaika.
http//www.toluislam.com/pub_online/exposition/glossary_m_to_n.htm#_Toc428590267Before the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride.
The malaika that are earthly natural forces are the vicegerents of the divine will on earth.
Iblis is one of them.At the creation of man
God announce to the malaika his intention to create man
And your Lord said to the Angels I am placing a successor on Earth. They said Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You? He said I know what you do not know.
All the malaika seem to be doubtful.
Then God explains them Adam (the man) will be superior to them
And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful.
They said Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise.
He said O Adam, inform them of the description of these, so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?
Knowledge of the name = faculty of abstraction => conscience => free willAnd We said to the Angels Submit to Adam, so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
All the angels acknowledge the superiority of Adam save Iblis.
After the creation of man
No creature (animal, plant, etc… can disobey to the will of god ; save one the man.
Malaika never disobey nor show pride (this has not changed).
The man has succeeded to the malaika as vicegerent of the divine will on earth. The malaika have been subjected to him (the man can master the natural forces).The man has free will he has the ability to choose to obey or disobey to the commands of god.
Obviously it is the will of God he can (because God is his creator).There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
To obey to God = To follow the commands of God = to believe (yumin) in God= to become a beleiver (momin)
To disobey to God = to believe (yakfur) in Shaitan (Iblis) = to follow Shaitan = to become a rejecter (kafir)Summary
Before the creation of man, Iblis was a malaika ; and he was, like other malaika carrying the will of God. After the creation of Man, Iblis ceased to be a malaika ; he became the shaitan = the force that lead man astray of the divine path.
Who is Iblis ?
I think Iblis is the psychological force that leads living creatures to dominate the others (in the same specie), to reproduce more. If Iblis works into animals, no problem it is the will of God. But, if Iblis works into the human, it leads him to arrogance, selfishness, wickednessNow, this situation will not change, and there will not be any other malaika that will rebel. They all have been subjected to human. So, you can confidently have faith in them.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=31290&highlight=#31290IMHO, the jinn are the leaders/notables among humans.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2714&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0But Iblis is not a jinn !
Iblis is only of the same nature as the jinns !"ibleesa kana mina aljinni" can also be translated as "Iblis was of the same nature as the jinns (the leaders)" ; describing Iblis as overproud/arrogant, like the leaders.
Min can mean "from" or "of the same nature as".
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41918&highlight=#41918
Hope it will help !
(feel free to follow the links...)Peace
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Salaam Truth,
The reasons for this exhortation ie. to contemplate the reading is to enable them to acknowledge that the God is its author and to open the mind to its message, and take heed of it. 482, 4724, 3829
The ayaat above, if you quote them in context, shows that contemplation of the book is necessary for application. See 4/82's context for example, its dealing with political plots against the messenger. And out of nowhere, 4/82 comes in. This shows that the 'ikhtilafaan katheera' in 4/82 is also about its concordance with reality itself.
Let me ask you, do you feel al-quraan has no applicational side but is only a miracle ?
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Salaam all,
Sorry to bump in!
Well I have also read through once more all those verses about iblis.
Verse 1850 is mention that Iblis was of the jinns.
But God is the creator of everything therefore it's important to know that He has created both the good and the bad or let the bad be a challenge for us to reach the good.
If the bad didn't existed then God's plan for us humans couldn't exist in this form like it is here on earth.
It is in our nafs(soul) the bad thought can effect us and that is what iblis is a bad thought.He can be everywhere and God let him be until the time is to an end.
We must fight the bad thought with the good thought to achieve the goal, that's not so complicated after all.
But I'm still curious what Marie has in her basket
Peace Sis Majidah
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Salaam Truth,
The reasons for this exhortation ie. to contemplate the reading is to enable them to acknowledge that the God is its author and to open the mind to its message, and take heed of it. 482, 4724, 3829
The ayaat above, if you quote them in context, shows that contemplation of the book is necessary for application. See 4/82's context for example, its dealing with political plots against the messenger. And out of nowhere, 4/82 comes in. This shows that the 'ikhtilafaan katheera' in 4/82 is also about its concordance with reality itself.
Let me ask you, do you feel al-quraan has no applicational side but is only a miracle ?
Peace,
I don't believe in miracles as supernatural events that break the laws of the universe. The reading is not a miracle in this sense. In fact as you would be aware, one does not find the word miracle in the reading.
This is straying from the topic however and I won't divert it for those who are still interested having already written all that I wanted on it.
So how about explaining how the nature of Iblis helps - ie. what is the applicational side of Iblis being a jinn or angel or both in the real world? How does the resolution of this point help me?
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For those interested in self-study
PRL"]= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk676
1527, 5515, 5539, 5556, 5574
156, 2627, 3736, 4414, 5139, 5152, 5229, 549, 682, 6851, 8122
5332
2710, 2831
225, 235, 282, 2111, 2214, 2221, 2265, 2266, 315, 3133, 3136, 3142, 3185, 3195, 3198, 413, 457, 4122, 4124, 512, 565, 572, 585, 5119, 699, 6141, 719, 722, 727, 740, 742, 743, 744, 746, 749, 750, 921, 972, 972, 989, 9100, 9111, 109, 1026, 1123, 11108, 134, 1323, 1335, 1423, 1545, 1631, 1632, 1791, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1835, 1839, 1840, 18107, 1960, 1961, 1963, 2076, 20117, 20121, 2214, 2223, 2256, 2319, 258, 2510, 2515, 2524, 2657, 2685, 2690, 26134, 26147, 2958, 318, 3219, 3415, 3416, 3416, 3533, 3626, 3634, 3655, 3743, 3850, 3973, 3974, 408, 4040, 4130, 427, 4222, 4370, 4372, 4425, 4452, 4614, 4616, 476, 4712, 4715, 485, 4817, 509, 5031, 5115, 5217, 5315, 5454, 5546, 5554, 5562, 5612, 5689, 5712, 5721, 5822, 5920, 5920, 6112, 6112, 649, 6511, 668, 6611, 6817, 6834, 6922, 7035, 7038, 7112, 7440, 7612, 7816, 7941, 8113, 8511, 8810, 8930, 988
6100, 6112, 6128, 6130, 738, 7179, 1788, 1850, 2717, 2739, 3412, 3414, 3441, 4125, 4129, 4618, 4629, 5156, 5533, 721, 725, 726
11119, 3213, 37158, 37158, 1146
7184, 2325, 2370, 348, 3446
5816, 632
root of iblis
= Ba-Lam-Siin = despair, give up hope, become broken (in spirit), mournful, become silent/confounded/perplexed unable to see right way or course, repent/grieve.
3012
644, 2377, 3049, 4375
234, 711, 1531, 1532, 1761, 1850, 20116, 2695, 3420, 3874, 3875
root of malaikah
Miim-Lam-Kaf
43, 424, 425, 436, 1671, 236, 2431, 2433, 2458, 2461, 3028, 3350, 3352, 3355, 7030
517, 525, 541, 576, 7188, 1031, 1049, 1316, 1673, 1756, 17100, 1987, 2089, 253, 253, 2723, 2917, 3422, 3442, 3513, 3943, 4386, 468, 4811, 604, 7221, 7837, 8219
2087
2102, 2107, 2247, 2247, 2247, 2248, 2251, 2258, 326, 326, 326, 3189, 453, 454, 517, 518, 540, 5120, 673, 7158, 9116, 12101, 17111, 20120, 2256, 2442, 252, 252, 2526, 3513, 3810, 3820, 3835, 396, 3944, 4016, 4029, 4249, 4351, 4385, 4527, 4814, 572, 575, 641, 671, 7620, 859
14, 326, 3671
1675
2102, 68, 68, 69, 650, 720, 1112, 1131, 1231, 1795, 257, 3211, 5326, 6917, 8922
675, 7185, 2388, 3683
2246, 2247, 520, 1243, 1250, 1254, 1272, 1276, 1879, 20114, 23116, 2734, 5923, 621, 1142
5455
4377
= Lam-Alif-Kaf = To send, to send a message, to send anyone towards.
malak n.m (pl. malaikah), see also malak (Miim-Lam-Kaf)230, 231, 234, 298, 2161, 2177, 2210, 2248, 2285, 318, 339, 342, 345, 380, 387, 3124, 3125, 497, 4136, 4166, 4172, 693, 6111, 6158, 711, 89, 812, 850, 1313, 1323, 157, 158, 1528, 1530, 162, 1628, 1632, 1633, 1649, 1740, 1761, 1792, 1795, 1850, 20116, 21103, 2275, 2324, 2521, 2522, 2525, 3343, 3356, 3440, 351, 37150, 3871, 3873, 3975, 4114, 4130, 425, 4319, 4353, 4360, 4227, 5327, 664, 666, 704, 7431, 7838, 974
Wakas
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
I dont think you remembered to comment on my statement that theword "jinn" means "hidden", and it describes the state of our inner faculties, which are "hidden". We read a chapter from the point of view of these "hidden beings", and it is stated that "there are from us those who are good and others on a different path", so we have the hidden "malaika" and the hidden "shateen".
The malaika(faculties of control) are there prostrating to the intellect(adam), but there is another faculty that is there to provide the testing. It is Desperation(from looking at life from the viewpoint of the physical, seperate experience). And this desperation(iblis) creates the rejecting thoughts/emotions (shayteen) which block our receptivity to God's inspiration.
Truth, this is very important because t is teachin s how our inner faculties work. There is nothing that is unimportant, the God does not deal in "idle talk".
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
I dont think you remembered to comment on my statement that theword "jinn" means "hidden", and it describes the state of our inner faculties, which are "hidden".
What does it mean, for you, that the jinn (hidden ?) has been created from fire ? And the man from clay ?
Do you agree that fire symbolizes fiery temperament ?
Peace
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Salam,
First of all, thank you all for your comments.
Why are you teasing us?
I did not do it intentionally. I could not develop my answer yesterday because I have a laser cordless mouse which was discharged. I have to wait a few hours to charge it.
My apologies for those who are aggravated by this subject.
I will go straight to the goal, the article illa which is translated as except in 234, 1530-31, 1850, 20116117 could be understood as but, then 234 becomes
Translated by Maulana Muhammad Ali
234 And when We said to the angels, Be submissive to Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (did not). He refused and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.I translate the last sentence of V 234 in the similar way
but Iblis refused (to submit) and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers1530-31 state that all of the angels together submit..
Maulana Muhammad Ali
1530 So the angels made obeisance,all of them together
1531 But Iblis (did it not). He refused to be with those who made obeisance.All of them together/ kulluhum ajmaAAoona, all of almala-ikat + together excludes that Iblis was one of them. The answer to this iquestion is given in 1850, Iblis was of the Jinn.
AjmaAAoon (2695), and jameeAAan (3510) also mean all.
According the context of their occurence, they mean all, entirely without any exception.The following foot note is from the translation of the same author
The thing excepted by means of illa (lit., except) is in some cases disunited in kind from that from which the exception is made, and the statement which follows illa is, therefore, a new statement altogether cut off from the .rst. Therefore instead of adopting the ordinary rendering, with the exception of Iblis, I adopt but Iblis did not.If we assume that almala-ikat refers to the angels function of controlling the forces of nature on the physical side of life (the definition is taken from the translation of Maulana Muhammad Ali), it seems logical that all of these controlling forces made obeisance without any exception.
1850 states that Iblis transgressed the commandment of his Lord. Like the angels, Iblis was ordered to submit to Adam.
Curently, I take Iblis as the force of Desperation/Obsession. The shayteen are the thoughts/emotions that make up "iblis".
I agree for Desperation. Indeed iblis is an enemy for us but he has no power upon us.
One can fall into his trap, it leads him to disobey to the God's commands like adam or to despair of the Gods mercy which is one of the meaning of ablasa, iblaas.
Iblasa, iblaas can also mean distress, confusion, embarrassment, confusion, indecision, uncertainty, hesitation, perplexity / to remain dumb, quiet, to stop speaking..Sorry for the suspens
Looking forward to your thoughts.
Thanks
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Peace be upon you JM,
What does it mean, for you, that the jinn (hidden ?) has been created from fire ? And the man from clay ?
Do you agree that fire symbolizes fiery temperament ?
NO, my understanding of the symbolisms of fire and clay are as follows;
The human is made of soil and water, it is the heat of fire that hardens this mixture into "clay". The inner hidden faculties all initiate with thought(adam/intellect). It is the thoughts that we entertain or are ingrained in us as we grow up that hardens the soil/water mix until we are "stuck" in our way. It is only when the God's inSPIRation/revelation RAINS on that clay that it softens and can be reshapen.
This is a message of behavior shaping.
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Peace marie,
All of them together/ kulluhum ajmaAAoona, ?all of almala-ikat + together? excludes that Iblis was one of them.
The exception comes after the word all is used. I do not see how the conclusion is reached that if all except me refused to partake of the feast, I'm not a part of the people asked to partake of the feast. If I am refusing, that means the invitation has been given to me as well. Verse after verse, the invitation is given to the malaika and no one else...I have seen this from so many angles uptil now, and I hold to my previous understanding.
According the context of their occurence, they mean all, entirely without any exception.
So the but is there just for effect? What context do you speak of? According to the context that I can read in the verses you gave, it is apparent that Iblis is part of the group told to make obeisance and out of that group they all made obeisance except Iblis. That does not exclude Iblis from the group, it tells us that he did not make obeisance like the rest of the group did. That is what the new statement would mean in that quote you provided. It is also imperative to note that he is called what he is after he refuses. That goes with my understanding that he loses his status. It's clear what the exception means when read with all the verses.
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Peace be upon yuo Sistefr Marie,
The change from "except" to "but" doesnt change anything for me. As SC stated, the command was still given to the malaika, so only they were supossed to obey it. All we have to do is stop taking jinn as title of a being and make it a description, the malaika are of the jinn....
wow! I think I just figured something out. I'll be back shortly, have to ponder and verify something. trance
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Salaam Br Kyle,
Idolfree wrote The change from "except" to "but" doesnt change anything for me. As SC stated, the command was still given to the malaika, so only they were supossed to obey it. All we have to do is stop taking jinn as title of a being and make it a description, the malaika are of the jinn....
Well I will rather say that we should stop taking iblis as a title of a being because iblis is the bad nafs and the angels the good nafs because they follow and obey God but iblis don't.
Peace Sis Majidah
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Peace sister Nadia, all,
Thanks for your understanding.
From the Reading, we can say both mala-ikat and iblis were ordered to submit to Adam. The question is were they ordered to submit together or separately?
If iblis was one of the mala-ikat, "all of almala-ikat together" in 1530 doesn't make sence, imho. "all together" refers only to the mala-ikat and makes "almala-ikat" and "Iblis" two distinct entities.4111 is a bit similar than 234 and the other verses
- Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the Earth Come willingly or unwillingly. They said We come willingly.
Let us suppose that the earth transgressed the God's commands like Iblis, that doesnt imply the earth = the heaven, they are complementary but distinct.
In the same way, the God ordered the mala-ikat and Iblis to submit to Adam, Iblis refused to submit that doesn't make him one of the angel.
The God knows best.
Regards
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Salaam all,
I must admit that i always want to find the easy way out and found the logic in things because for me God is logic.
With this i mean that it can be as simple as God want to show us the good and bad so we can learn from that and take heed.
Why we must rabbling over and over who is malaika and who is iblis!?
I don't find any logic in that when so many already have pointed out the main points.
Quran is a guideline for humans and it must in a simple way reach out to us so we can take it to our hearts.
My understanding is that God is showing us the caractor of goodness in the malaika and the badness in Iblis.
We cannot see non of them with our eyes so they are in the spirit worlds and therefore we must guard our God given brain so we can uphold the truth from our Lord and be saved.
Peace Sis Majidah
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Peace be upon you Marie,
If you read 530-31 together, keeping in mind that verses are man made, it is the very same as the other occurence, except that it further stregthens that there was none other who disobeyed except iblis by saying "all of them" followed by "EXCEPT".
(530-31) So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together except iblis, he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.
There is no need for EXCEPT is iblis is from a different group. If iblis is not part of the malaika, then EXCEPT is gramatically incorrect.
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Peace sis marie,
From the Reading, we can say both mala-ikat and iblis were ordered to submit to Adam. The question is were they ordered to submit together or separately?
If iblis was one of the mala-ikat, "all of almala-ikat together" in 1530 doesn't make sence, imho. "all together" refers only to the mala-ikat and makes "almala-ikat" and "Iblis" two distinct entities.The question underlined in your quote above does not make sense to me. The reason being is that in all the verses the malaika are told to sjd and iblis refuses. This is consistent. So why would someone ask, well was it together or seperate?
It does make sense when "all together" is taken because of the exception. We are given the examples of such exceptions in the reading, one of bro Kyle's favourites, man is in loss except such that have faith. Exceptions used in language also come across rather frequently in daily life. There is no confusion in, "they all did except iblis"...it's a perfectly legitimate sentence that is sound in all aspects.
In the same way, the God ordered the mala-ikat and Iblis to submit to Adam, Iblis refused to submit that doesn't make him one of the angel.
In the example you gave, we know what the earth and sky are. There is no confusion as to what is the sky? Is it part of the earth? It is clearly defined. Same way, we have malaika and the address to ONLY malaika. There is no verse where we read, come all malaika and Iblis or come all malaika and all jinn...One group is called to do the deed and that group is the malaika and iblis is part of it making him a malaika as well. It is simple and logical and there is no confusion.
Of course though, God does know best
