Iblis?
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Salaam Truth,
The reasons for this exhortation ie. to contemplate the reading is to enable them to acknowledge that the God is its author and to open the mind to its message, and take heed of it. 482, 4724, 3829
The ayaat above, if you quote them in context, shows that contemplation of the book is necessary for application. See 4/82's context for example, its dealing with political plots against the messenger. And out of nowhere, 4/82 comes in. This shows that the 'ikhtilafaan katheera' in 4/82 is also about its concordance with reality itself.
Let me ask you, do you feel al-quraan has no applicational side but is only a miracle ?
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Salaam all,
Sorry to bump in!
Well I have also read through once more all those verses about iblis.
Verse 1850 is mention that Iblis was of the jinns.
But God is the creator of everything therefore it's important to know that He has created both the good and the bad or let the bad be a challenge for us to reach the good.
If the bad didn't existed then God's plan for us humans couldn't exist in this form like it is here on earth.
It is in our nafs(soul) the bad thought can effect us and that is what iblis is a bad thought.He can be everywhere and God let him be until the time is to an end.
We must fight the bad thought with the good thought to achieve the goal, that's not so complicated after all.
But I'm still curious what Marie has in her basket
Peace Sis Majidah
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Salaam Truth,
The reasons for this exhortation ie. to contemplate the reading is to enable them to acknowledge that the God is its author and to open the mind to its message, and take heed of it. 482, 4724, 3829
The ayaat above, if you quote them in context, shows that contemplation of the book is necessary for application. See 4/82's context for example, its dealing with political plots against the messenger. And out of nowhere, 4/82 comes in. This shows that the 'ikhtilafaan katheera' in 4/82 is also about its concordance with reality itself.
Let me ask you, do you feel al-quraan has no applicational side but is only a miracle ?
Peace,
I don't believe in miracles as supernatural events that break the laws of the universe. The reading is not a miracle in this sense. In fact as you would be aware, one does not find the word miracle in the reading.
This is straying from the topic however and I won't divert it for those who are still interested having already written all that I wanted on it.
So how about explaining how the nature of Iblis helps - ie. what is the applicational side of Iblis being a jinn or angel or both in the real world? How does the resolution of this point help me?
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For those interested in self-study
PRL"]= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk676
1527, 5515, 5539, 5556, 5574
156, 2627, 3736, 4414, 5139, 5152, 5229, 549, 682, 6851, 8122
5332
2710, 2831
225, 235, 282, 2111, 2214, 2221, 2265, 2266, 315, 3133, 3136, 3142, 3185, 3195, 3198, 413, 457, 4122, 4124, 512, 565, 572, 585, 5119, 699, 6141, 719, 722, 727, 740, 742, 743, 744, 746, 749, 750, 921, 972, 972, 989, 9100, 9111, 109, 1026, 1123, 11108, 134, 1323, 1335, 1423, 1545, 1631, 1632, 1791, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1835, 1839, 1840, 18107, 1960, 1961, 1963, 2076, 20117, 20121, 2214, 2223, 2256, 2319, 258, 2510, 2515, 2524, 2657, 2685, 2690, 26134, 26147, 2958, 318, 3219, 3415, 3416, 3416, 3533, 3626, 3634, 3655, 3743, 3850, 3973, 3974, 408, 4040, 4130, 427, 4222, 4370, 4372, 4425, 4452, 4614, 4616, 476, 4712, 4715, 485, 4817, 509, 5031, 5115, 5217, 5315, 5454, 5546, 5554, 5562, 5612, 5689, 5712, 5721, 5822, 5920, 5920, 6112, 6112, 649, 6511, 668, 6611, 6817, 6834, 6922, 7035, 7038, 7112, 7440, 7612, 7816, 7941, 8113, 8511, 8810, 8930, 988
6100, 6112, 6128, 6130, 738, 7179, 1788, 1850, 2717, 2739, 3412, 3414, 3441, 4125, 4129, 4618, 4629, 5156, 5533, 721, 725, 726
11119, 3213, 37158, 37158, 1146
7184, 2325, 2370, 348, 3446
5816, 632
root of iblis
= Ba-Lam-Siin = despair, give up hope, become broken (in spirit), mournful, become silent/confounded/perplexed unable to see right way or course, repent/grieve.
3012
644, 2377, 3049, 4375
234, 711, 1531, 1532, 1761, 1850, 20116, 2695, 3420, 3874, 3875
root of malaikah
Miim-Lam-Kaf
43, 424, 425, 436, 1671, 236, 2431, 2433, 2458, 2461, 3028, 3350, 3352, 3355, 7030
517, 525, 541, 576, 7188, 1031, 1049, 1316, 1673, 1756, 17100, 1987, 2089, 253, 253, 2723, 2917, 3422, 3442, 3513, 3943, 4386, 468, 4811, 604, 7221, 7837, 8219
2087
2102, 2107, 2247, 2247, 2247, 2248, 2251, 2258, 326, 326, 326, 3189, 453, 454, 517, 518, 540, 5120, 673, 7158, 9116, 12101, 17111, 20120, 2256, 2442, 252, 252, 2526, 3513, 3810, 3820, 3835, 396, 3944, 4016, 4029, 4249, 4351, 4385, 4527, 4814, 572, 575, 641, 671, 7620, 859
14, 326, 3671
1675
2102, 68, 68, 69, 650, 720, 1112, 1131, 1231, 1795, 257, 3211, 5326, 6917, 8922
675, 7185, 2388, 3683
2246, 2247, 520, 1243, 1250, 1254, 1272, 1276, 1879, 20114, 23116, 2734, 5923, 621, 1142
5455
4377
= Lam-Alif-Kaf = To send, to send a message, to send anyone towards.
malak n.m (pl. malaikah), see also malak (Miim-Lam-Kaf)230, 231, 234, 298, 2161, 2177, 2210, 2248, 2285, 318, 339, 342, 345, 380, 387, 3124, 3125, 497, 4136, 4166, 4172, 693, 6111, 6158, 711, 89, 812, 850, 1313, 1323, 157, 158, 1528, 1530, 162, 1628, 1632, 1633, 1649, 1740, 1761, 1792, 1795, 1850, 20116, 21103, 2275, 2324, 2521, 2522, 2525, 3343, 3356, 3440, 351, 37150, 3871, 3873, 3975, 4114, 4130, 425, 4319, 4353, 4360, 4227, 5327, 664, 666, 704, 7431, 7838, 974
Wakas
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
I dont think you remembered to comment on my statement that theword "jinn" means "hidden", and it describes the state of our inner faculties, which are "hidden". We read a chapter from the point of view of these "hidden beings", and it is stated that "there are from us those who are good and others on a different path", so we have the hidden "malaika" and the hidden "shateen".
The malaika(faculties of control) are there prostrating to the intellect(adam), but there is another faculty that is there to provide the testing. It is Desperation(from looking at life from the viewpoint of the physical, seperate experience). And this desperation(iblis) creates the rejecting thoughts/emotions (shayteen) which block our receptivity to God's inspiration.
Truth, this is very important because t is teachin s how our inner faculties work. There is nothing that is unimportant, the God does not deal in "idle talk".
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
I dont think you remembered to comment on my statement that theword "jinn" means "hidden", and it describes the state of our inner faculties, which are "hidden".
What does it mean, for you, that the jinn (hidden ?) has been created from fire ? And the man from clay ?
Do you agree that fire symbolizes fiery temperament ?
Peace
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Salam,
First of all, thank you all for your comments.
Why are you teasing us?
I did not do it intentionally. I could not develop my answer yesterday because I have a laser cordless mouse which was discharged. I have to wait a few hours to charge it.
My apologies for those who are aggravated by this subject.
I will go straight to the goal, the article illa which is translated as except in 234, 1530-31, 1850, 20116117 could be understood as but, then 234 becomes
Translated by Maulana Muhammad Ali
234 And when We said to the angels, Be submissive to Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (did not). He refused and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.I translate the last sentence of V 234 in the similar way
but Iblis refused (to submit) and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers1530-31 state that all of the angels together submit..
Maulana Muhammad Ali
1530 So the angels made obeisance,all of them together
1531 But Iblis (did it not). He refused to be with those who made obeisance.All of them together/ kulluhum ajmaAAoona, all of almala-ikat + together excludes that Iblis was one of them. The answer to this iquestion is given in 1850, Iblis was of the Jinn.
AjmaAAoon (2695), and jameeAAan (3510) also mean all.
According the context of their occurence, they mean all, entirely without any exception.The following foot note is from the translation of the same author
The thing excepted by means of illa (lit., except) is in some cases disunited in kind from that from which the exception is made, and the statement which follows illa is, therefore, a new statement altogether cut off from the .rst. Therefore instead of adopting the ordinary rendering, with the exception of Iblis, I adopt but Iblis did not.If we assume that almala-ikat refers to the angels function of controlling the forces of nature on the physical side of life (the definition is taken from the translation of Maulana Muhammad Ali), it seems logical that all of these controlling forces made obeisance without any exception.
1850 states that Iblis transgressed the commandment of his Lord. Like the angels, Iblis was ordered to submit to Adam.
Curently, I take Iblis as the force of Desperation/Obsession. The shayteen are the thoughts/emotions that make up "iblis".
I agree for Desperation. Indeed iblis is an enemy for us but he has no power upon us.
One can fall into his trap, it leads him to disobey to the God's commands like adam or to despair of the Gods mercy which is one of the meaning of ablasa, iblaas.
Iblasa, iblaas can also mean distress, confusion, embarrassment, confusion, indecision, uncertainty, hesitation, perplexity / to remain dumb, quiet, to stop speaking..Sorry for the suspens
Looking forward to your thoughts.
Thanks
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Peace be upon you JM,
What does it mean, for you, that the jinn (hidden ?) has been created from fire ? And the man from clay ?
Do you agree that fire symbolizes fiery temperament ?
NO, my understanding of the symbolisms of fire and clay are as follows;
The human is made of soil and water, it is the heat of fire that hardens this mixture into "clay". The inner hidden faculties all initiate with thought(adam/intellect). It is the thoughts that we entertain or are ingrained in us as we grow up that hardens the soil/water mix until we are "stuck" in our way. It is only when the God's inSPIRation/revelation RAINS on that clay that it softens and can be reshapen.
This is a message of behavior shaping.
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Peace marie,
All of them together/ kulluhum ajmaAAoona, ?all of almala-ikat + together? excludes that Iblis was one of them.
The exception comes after the word all is used. I do not see how the conclusion is reached that if all except me refused to partake of the feast, I'm not a part of the people asked to partake of the feast. If I am refusing, that means the invitation has been given to me as well. Verse after verse, the invitation is given to the malaika and no one else...I have seen this from so many angles uptil now, and I hold to my previous understanding.
According the context of their occurence, they mean all, entirely without any exception.
So the but is there just for effect? What context do you speak of? According to the context that I can read in the verses you gave, it is apparent that Iblis is part of the group told to make obeisance and out of that group they all made obeisance except Iblis. That does not exclude Iblis from the group, it tells us that he did not make obeisance like the rest of the group did. That is what the new statement would mean in that quote you provided. It is also imperative to note that he is called what he is after he refuses. That goes with my understanding that he loses his status. It's clear what the exception means when read with all the verses.
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Peace be upon yuo Sistefr Marie,
The change from "except" to "but" doesnt change anything for me. As SC stated, the command was still given to the malaika, so only they were supossed to obey it. All we have to do is stop taking jinn as title of a being and make it a description, the malaika are of the jinn....
wow! I think I just figured something out. I'll be back shortly, have to ponder and verify something. trance
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Salaam Br Kyle,
Idolfree wrote The change from "except" to "but" doesnt change anything for me. As SC stated, the command was still given to the malaika, so only they were supossed to obey it. All we have to do is stop taking jinn as title of a being and make it a description, the malaika are of the jinn....
Well I will rather say that we should stop taking iblis as a title of a being because iblis is the bad nafs and the angels the good nafs because they follow and obey God but iblis don't.
Peace Sis Majidah
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Peace sister Nadia, all,
Thanks for your understanding.
From the Reading, we can say both mala-ikat and iblis were ordered to submit to Adam. The question is were they ordered to submit together or separately?
If iblis was one of the mala-ikat, "all of almala-ikat together" in 1530 doesn't make sence, imho. "all together" refers only to the mala-ikat and makes "almala-ikat" and "Iblis" two distinct entities.4111 is a bit similar than 234 and the other verses
- Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the Earth Come willingly or unwillingly. They said We come willingly.
Let us suppose that the earth transgressed the God's commands like Iblis, that doesnt imply the earth = the heaven, they are complementary but distinct.
In the same way, the God ordered the mala-ikat and Iblis to submit to Adam, Iblis refused to submit that doesn't make him one of the angel.
The God knows best.
Regards
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Salaam all,
I must admit that i always want to find the easy way out and found the logic in things because for me God is logic.
With this i mean that it can be as simple as God want to show us the good and bad so we can learn from that and take heed.
Why we must rabbling over and over who is malaika and who is iblis!?
I don't find any logic in that when so many already have pointed out the main points.
Quran is a guideline for humans and it must in a simple way reach out to us so we can take it to our hearts.
My understanding is that God is showing us the caractor of goodness in the malaika and the badness in Iblis.
We cannot see non of them with our eyes so they are in the spirit worlds and therefore we must guard our God given brain so we can uphold the truth from our Lord and be saved.
Peace Sis Majidah
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Peace be upon you Marie,
If you read 530-31 together, keeping in mind that verses are man made, it is the very same as the other occurence, except that it further stregthens that there was none other who disobeyed except iblis by saying "all of them" followed by "EXCEPT".
(530-31) So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together except iblis, he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.
There is no need for EXCEPT is iblis is from a different group. If iblis is not part of the malaika, then EXCEPT is gramatically incorrect.
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Peace sis marie,
From the Reading, we can say both mala-ikat and iblis were ordered to submit to Adam. The question is were they ordered to submit together or separately?
If iblis was one of the mala-ikat, "all of almala-ikat together" in 1530 doesn't make sence, imho. "all together" refers only to the mala-ikat and makes "almala-ikat" and "Iblis" two distinct entities.The question underlined in your quote above does not make sense to me. The reason being is that in all the verses the malaika are told to sjd and iblis refuses. This is consistent. So why would someone ask, well was it together or seperate?
It does make sense when "all together" is taken because of the exception. We are given the examples of such exceptions in the reading, one of bro Kyle's favourites, man is in loss except such that have faith. Exceptions used in language also come across rather frequently in daily life. There is no confusion in, "they all did except iblis"...it's a perfectly legitimate sentence that is sound in all aspects.
In the same way, the God ordered the mala-ikat and Iblis to submit to Adam, Iblis refused to submit that doesn't make him one of the angel.
In the example you gave, we know what the earth and sky are. There is no confusion as to what is the sky? Is it part of the earth? It is clearly defined. Same way, we have malaika and the address to ONLY malaika. There is no verse where we read, come all malaika and Iblis or come all malaika and all jinn...One group is called to do the deed and that group is the malaika and iblis is part of it making him a malaika as well. It is simple and logical and there is no confusion.
Of course though, God does know best
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Peace Kyle
There is no need for EXCEPT is iblis is from a different group. If iblis is not part of the malaika, then EXCEPT is gramatically incorrect.
Except is not the only meaning of "illa", it can be understood as but according the context.
Let us suppose that "illa" means only except, one can read 234 in this way34.And We said to the Angels Submit to Adam, so they submitted except Iblis (who was ordered to submit to Adam 712) refused (to submit) and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.
Both angel and iblis are commanded to submit, all of the angels together submit and iblis didn't, where is the problem?
If Iblis is part part of the malaika, then why the God uses "together" in 1530 if one of the angel refused to submit. "all" would be sufficient according your reasonning.
imo, "together" mark the end of the first statement about the malaika and "illa" announces the begining of a new statement about Iblis. -
Salam nadia,
"they all did except iblis"
"All of them did except iblis" is not similar than "all of them together"did except iblis"
As I said to Kyle, if one of the angels didn't submit, then "together" doesn't make sense, the quote above would be more accurate.
From 712, we know indirectly that Iblis was ordered to submit (amartuka / I have ordered you.
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
I dont think you remembered to comment on my statement that theword "jinn" means "hidden", and it describes the state of our inner faculties, which are "hidden". We read a chapter from the point of view of these "hidden beings", and it is stated that "there are from us those who are good and others on a different path", so we have the hidden "malaika" and the hidden "shateen".
The malaika(faculties of control) are there prostrating to the intellect(adam), but there is another faculty that is there to provide the testing. It is Desperation(from looking at life from the viewpoint of the physical, seperate experience). And this desperation(iblis) creates the rejecting thoughts/emotions (shayteen) which block our receptivity to God's inspiration.
Truth, this is very important because t is teachin s how our inner faculties work. There is nothing that is unimportant, the God does not deal in "idle talk".
Sorry bro, I just could not comperhend it that's all and wanted not to dispute it with you, the point is in many locations in the Quran especially on the Judjment day and after Satan was mentioned as a physical entity
Allah knows best
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Peace be upon you Marie,
Except is not the only meaning of "illa", it can be understood as but according the context.
I dont see any differenc in using but or except, they say the same thing in the context of this verse.
Let us suppose that "illa" means only except, one can read 234 in this way
34.And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam,? so they submitted except Iblis (who was ordered to submit to Adam 712) refused (to submit) and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.
712 is there because iblis is a malaika and was commanded to prostrate.
Both angel and iblis are commanded to submit, all of the angels together submit and iblis didn't, where is the problem?
Yes, all of the malaika do prostrate, together(not one ...then a little while later another..), EXCEPT Iblis.
If Iblis is part part of the malaika, then why the God uses "together" in 1530 if one of the angel refused to submit. "all" would be sufficient according your reasonning.
imo, "together" mark the end of the first statement about the malaika and "illa" announces the begining of a new statement about Iblis.But why start the next stetment with EXCEPT?
