Iblis?
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Hello again
Sorry to bother you again, I just had some free time before I go to bed, the story of Adam does not stop there it continues after they were sent to earth, if the above is a symbol then the following is also a symbol and consequently the whole Quran is a symbol and is nothing but story tales by a god who is not really sure of his message "The Quran" on how it should be delivered to his creatures
First of all what I will post will include some hadith that i believe in as documented history records "NOTHING MORE", i have never been a sunni in my life neither I follow any sect I'm a Muslim and nothing but a Muslim, I even refused to follow any specific Mazahab all my life
I accept any hadith that pass the criteria and common sense as extracted from the Quran, but I really hate Bukhari and never liked him in my life, I believe he is a confused Muslim who helped the enemy of Islam directly or otherwise to find new ways of degarding our great religion, I respect Muslim to the contrary, but both books and the others are not over valued by me rather put in the level they deserve, so excuse me if I included some hadith that I consider as a history record to try to come with a complete story that happned about 8000 years ago
This is the story of Abel and Cain as I believe it
The pinnacle of earthly bliss was reached when Adam and Eve witnessed the birth of their 1st children, a set of twins. Adam was a devoted father and Eve a contented mother. The twins were Cain (Qabil) and his sister. Later Eve gave birth to a second set of twins, Abel (Habil) and his sister. The family enjoyed the bounties and fruits of the earth provided by their Lord. The children grew up to be strong and healthy young adults. Cain tilled the land while Abel raised cattle.
The time arrived when the two young men desired life partners. This was part of Allah?s plan for mankind, to multiply and form nations with different cultures and colors. Allah revealed to Adam that he should marry each son to the twin sister of the other. Adam instructed his children according to Allah's command, but Cain was displeased with the partner chosen for him, for Abel's twin sister was not as beautiful as his own.
It appears that since the beginning of time, physical beauty has been a factor in the attraction between man and women. This attraction caused Cain to envy his brother Abel. He rebelled against Allah's command by refusing to accept his father's advice.
At first glance Cain's rebellion might appear strange, but we should remember that although man has a pure nature, the potential for dichotomy exists. In other words, he had both good and bad qualities. He can become greedy, covetous, possessive, selfish and even destructive. Man is, therefore capable of seeking self-satisfaction even if it leads to failure in this life and in the hereafter. The path to goodness lies in harnessing the enemy within him, his baser self by controlling evil thoughts and deeds and practicing moderation in his desires and actions. His reward then will be the delights of this world and the hereafter. Thus Allah tests us through our divided nature.
Adam was in a dilemma. He wanted peace and harmony in his family, so he invoked Allah for help. Allah commanded that each son offer a sacrifice, and he whose offering was accepted would have right on his side. Abel offered his best camel while Cain offered his worst grain. His sacrifice was not accepted by Allah because of his disobedience to his father and the insincerity in his offering.
This enraged Cain even further. Realizing that his hopes marrying his own beautiful sister were fading, he threatened his brother "I will kill you! I refuse to see you happy while I remain unhappy!"
Abel feeling sorry for his brother, replied, "It would be more proper for you, my brother to search for the cause of your unhappiness and then walk in the way of peace. Allah accepts the deeds only from those who serve and fear Him, not from those who reject His Commands."
Abel was intelligent, obedient, and always ready to obey the will of Allah. This contrasted sharply with his brother who was arrogant, selfish and disobedient to his Lord. Abel did not fear his brother's threats, but neither did he want his brother to be hurt, Allah had blessed Abel with purity and compassion.
Hoping to allay the hatred seething in his brother Abel said, " My brother, you are deviating from the right path and are sinful in your decisions. It is better that you repent to Allah and forget about your foolish threat. But if you do not then I will leave the matter in the hands of Allah. You alone will bear the consequence of your sin, for the Fire is the reward of the wrong-doers."
This brotherly plea did nothing to lessen the hatred in Cain's heart, nor did he show fear of Allah's punishment. Even familial considerations were cast aside. Cain struck his brother with a stone killing him instantly. This was the 1st death and the 1st criminal act committed by man on earth.
When Abel had not appeared for some time, Adam began to search for him but found no trace of his beloved son. He asked Cain about Abel's whereabouts. Cain insolently replied that he was not his brother's keeper nor his protector. From these words his father understood that Abel was dead and Adam was filled with grief.
Meanwhile Cain did not know what to do with his brother's corpse. He carried it on his back wandering from place to place trying to hide it. His anger had now subsided and his conscience was saddled with guilt. He was tiring under the burden of the corpse which had started to have a stench. As a mercy, and to show that dignity could be retained even in death, Allah sent two ravens that began fighting, causing the death of one. The victorious bird used its beak and claws to dig a hole in the ground, rolled its victim into it and covered it with sand.
Witnessing this, Cain was overcome with shame and remorse. "Woe unto me!" he exclaimed. "I was unable to do what this raven has done, that is to hide my brother's corpse." Cain then buried his brother. This was also the 1st burial of man.
Allah the Almighty revealed?And (O Muhammad) recite to them (the Jews) the story of the two sons of Adam (Abel and Cain) in truth; when each offered a sacrifice to Allah, it was accepted from the one but not from the other. The latter said to the former; "I will surely kill you."
?the former said "Verily Allah accepts only from those who are Al Muttaqeen (the pious). If you do stretch your hand against me to kill me I shall never stretch my hand against you to kill you, for I fear Allah; the Lord of the Alameen (mankind, jinn, and all that exists). Verily I intend to let you draw my sin onyourself as well as yours then you will be one of the dwellers of the Fire, and that is the recompense of the Zalimeen (polytheists, and wrongdoers)."
?So the self of the other (latter one) encouraged him and made fair seeming to him the murder of his brother; he murdered him and became one of the losers. Allah sent a crow who scratched the ground to show him to hide the dead body of his brother. He (the murderer) said "Woe to me! Am I not even able to be as this crow and to hide the dead body of my brother?" Then he became one of those who regretted?
Ibn Abbas, Ibn Masud and a group of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad related that inter-marriage of the male of one pregnancy with the female of another had been in practice among Adam's children. Abel wanted to marry Cain's sister, but Cain wanted her for himself because she was very beautiful. Adam ordered him to give her in marriage to his brother but he refused. SO Adam ordered both of them to offer a sacrifice, then went to Mecca to perform the pilgrimage.
After Adam had left, they offered their sacrifices; Abel offered a fat lamb, he was a shepherd, while Cain offered a bundle of worst grain. fire descended and devoured Abel's sacrifice, leaving that of Cain so he became angry and said "I will surely kill you so that you will not marry my sister." Abel replied, "Allah accepts from those who fear Him."
According to Abu Ja'afar al Baqer, Adam was watching their offering and was sure that Abel's sacrifice would be accepted. Cain complained to Adam that the acceptance was due to his supplication for Abel and that he had not done the same for him, so he promised his father to settle the matter between himself and his brother. One night, Abel was late returning from tending his flock. Adam sent Cain to see what happened to him. When he found him, he glared at him saying "yours was accepted, and mine was not." Abel replied, "Allah only accepts from the Allah-fearing." Cain became angry on hearing this and hit him with a piece of iron that was with him and thus killing him. In another version it was said that he killed him with a rock to the head while he was sleeping.
Adam was utterly grief stricken by the loss of his two sons. One was dead, the other was won over by the devil. Adam prayed for his son and turned to mundane matters for he had to toil for his sustenance. At the same time he was a prophet advising his children and grandchildren, telling them about Allah and calling them to believe in Him. He told them about Iblis and warned them by recounting his own experience with the devil and of how the devil had tempted Cain to kill his brother.
Years and years passed, Adam grew old and his children spread all over the earth. Muhammad Ibn Ishaq related that when Adam's death drew near, he appointed his son Seth to be his successor and taught him the hours of the day and night along with their appropriate acts of worship. He also foretold to him the floor that would come.
Abu Dhar narrated that the Prophet Muhammad said "Allah sent down 104 psalms, of which 50 were sent down to Seth."
Abdullah Ibn Al Iman Ahmad Ibn Hanbal narrated that Ubai Ibn Kab said When Adam's death was near, he said to his children "O my children, indeed I feel an appetite for the fruits of Paradise."
So they went away searching for what Adam had requested. They met with the angels, who had with them his shroud and what he was to be embalmed with. They said to them "O Children of Adam, what are you searching for? What do you want? Where are you going?"
They said "Our father is sick and has an appetite for the fruits of Paradise."
the angels said to them "Go back, for your father is going to meet his end soon."
So they returned (with the angels) and when Eve saw them she recognized them. She tried to hide herself behind Adam. He said to her. "Leave me alone. I came before you; do not go between me and the angels of my Lord.'? So they took his soul, embalmed and wrapped him, dug the grave and laid him in it. They prayed on him and put him in his grave, saying ?O Children of Adam, this is your tradition at the time of death."
Before his death Adam reassured his children that Allah would not leave man alone on the earth, but would sent His prophets to guide them. the prophets would have different names, traits and miracles, but they would be united in one thing; the call to worship Allah alone. This was Adam's bequest to his children. Adam finished speaking and closed his eyes. Then the angels entered his room and surrounded him. When he recognized the Angel of Death among them, his heart smiled peacefully.
After Adam's death, his soth Seth (Shiith) took over the responsibilities of prophethood, according to a hadith narrated by Abu Dhar. Abu Dhar narrated that Prophet Muhammad said "Allah sent down one hundred and four psalms, of which fifty were sent down to Seth." When the time of his death came Seth's son Anoush succeeded him. He in turn, was succeeded by his son Qinan, claim that Mahlabeel was the King of the Seven Regions, that he was the first one to cut down trees to build cities and large forts and that he built the cities of Babylonia. He reigned for a period of forty years. When he died his duties were taken over by his son Yard, who on his death bequeathed them to his son Khonoukh, who is Idris according to the majority of the scholars.
Thanks for reading
Peace
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Peace Ahmed,
also "similar verses" does not make any sense, beacause for the first group the Quarn does not say UNSIMILAR or INDIVIDUAL VERSES, rather verses clear/established in meanings, so and logically speaking the opposite is verses that is not clear in meaning, also Mutshabihat MEANS UNCLEAR IN MEANING 100%
In ayat/sign 37 we are told how the book is made up of two kinds of ayatin/signs, muhkam/decisive and mutashabih/similar. The word decisive has a meaning that something is secure from change, the meaning of these ayat are secure from alteration. The word similar means that something resembles or is like a thing and is open to change since it is susceptible to different interpretations. God in my opinion is not saying that one grouping is clear and the other is unclear. He is saying that one group has a meaning which is not susceptible to interpretation and change, but the other group, which resembles those ayatin that are firm, can be changed if not confirmed by the former grouping.
The bottom line is this, I'm firm in what I know including the arabic language and I have to agree to disagree with you guys
I think you are not taking al-kitab wholly into account when you rely soley on arabic to determine what the meaning may be. I know mutashabih to mean similar or same. If you wish to deny that Allah has said that His signs are plain and go on interpreting mutashabih as unclear then go on ahead. Clearly it can mean similar or alike as I have provided a few ayatin for your referrence before.
Joe
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Peace Ahmed,
Hello bro
also "similar verses" does not make any sense, beacause for the first group the Quarn does not say UNSIMILAR or INDIVIDUAL VERSES, rather verses clear/established in meanings, so and logically speaking the opposite is verses that is not clear in meaning, also Mutshabihat MEANS UNCLEAR IN MEANING 100%
In ayat/sign 37 we are told how the book is made up of two kinds of ayatin/signs, muhkam/decisive and mutashabih/similar.
mate the opposite of decisive is "Unclear"
The word decisive has a meaning that something is secure from change, the meaning of these ayat are secure from alteration.
the whole Quran is secure from alteration, but not sure if the meaning will be secured
The word similar means that something resembles or is like a thing and is open to change since it is susceptible to different interpretations.
thanks
God in my opinion is not saying that one grouping is clear and the other is unclear.
in my opinion and according to the clear Arabic and according to the context and according to the Arabic grammar, Allah is saying the Quran has clear verses and unclear verses
He is saying that one group has a meaning which is not susceptible to interpretation and change, but the other group, which resembles those ayatin that are firm, can be changed if not confirmed by the former grouping.
No he is not saying that at all, I never seen this in the verse
the verse is clear, Allah said here is the Quran that I sent you, in it we will find Muhkam Ayat (very clear and have very well established meaning) and others that are Mutashabihat (unclear), and we will see some people with sick heart who will try hard to explain those UNCLEAR verses, seeking discord or just seeking to explain it, while NONE will know its meaning but Allah, however the true submitters will say both are from Allah and they will declare their belief in both the Clear and the Unclear verses
you see pepole with sick hearts WILL TRY TO CHASE THEIR MEANINGS to try (Ta'awiloh) (Explain it) or to cause discord, this can not be the case with "CLEAR SIMILAR VERSES"
the believers on the other hand will not try either, they will just accept it as both from Allah
mate your point is a total non sense, sorry
I looked at verse 270 and again I never denied that "Shabaha" means "looks similar" but again that is the language of Arabic, the same root can be used to compose words with totally different meanings
in this case (270) even though they mean that the cows look similar, the bottom line is, they are unclear which one of them, and that is also another context to the verse, but I accept the first one that they said all the cows look similar
Ragrding verse 225, again I accept that the word means similar, because "Shabaha" is an Arabic root that can be used to create more than one common word with different meanings, that is what Arabic is indeed
however using your logic, then the Mutshabihat verses MUST BE THE SAME EXACTLY AS WELL THE SAME LETTERS, WORDS and ORDER, so when you see it for the first time they will look the same exactly
the cows looked the same exactly 270, and the fruits will look the same exactly 225
if we look at the verses of the story of Adam, we will see that they are not identical in letters, words and order, so the first impression that they are NOT MUTSHABIHAT "Similar", THEY DO NOT LOOK THE SAME, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE SAME LETTERS, THE SAME WORDS ARRANGED IN THE SAME ORDER
well if Allah means by Mushabihat "similar verses" then I can show you verses in the Quran that ARE 100% IDENTICAL including letters words and arrangment so they will look identical
got my point?
The bottom line is this, I'm firm in what I know including the arabic language and I have to agree to disagree with you guys
I think you are not taking al-kitab wholly into account when you rely soley on arabic to determine what the meaning may be.
I'm sorry bro, there is only one preserved Kitab sent to humans on earth it is called the Quran, I accept that Allah may have other books up there, but what is the point?,
did He send it to me? NO
does He want me to follow it while He is keeping it up there? NO
He only wants me to follow the arabic Kitab (The Quran) He sent to earth via a prophet and He preserved it
and because the Kitab is in Arabic as Allah planned so, I will rsort only to the arabic language to understand it, make sense bro?
I know mutashabih to mean similar or same.
I have no problem to accept that meaning, but you should know that the arabic word Mutashabihat also means UNCLEAR
If you wish to deny that Allah has said that His signs are plain
I'm sorry bro, verse 111 does not say the above
here it is in arabic
(1)
it says simply that this is the Book that its verses were put together with wisdom then the verses were greatly detailed by the All mighty Allah
the way the book put together as stated by Allah does not sound plain to me, in fact it sounds very complicated, but because it is greatly detailed then the final outcome should be the book is easy to understand in its original language if time is invested. Arabic also is the language I speak since i was a baby
and go on interpreting mutashabih as unclear then go on ahead.
sure
Clearly it can mean similar or alike as I have provided a few ayatin for your referrence before.
Joeand clearly it can mean another thing according to the context it was used within
obviously you know it because you said "it CAN mean" similar
i.e. it is possible IT CAN NOT mean what you suggest within the context
for the references you posted, yes I accept it means similar in both, but that is according to the context withit the verses
the word "Shabaha" means "Unclear" and "Similar", this is the arabic language and sure I did not invent it
peace
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Peace Ahmed,
mate the opposite of decisive is "Unclear"
This is true. I do not think this ayat is speaking of opposites as you are.
Allah is saying the Quran has clear verses and unclear verses
I do not believe God is sending unclear signs .
Allah said here is the Quran that I sent you
The ayat we are speaking of does not say this.
in it we will find Muhkam Ayat (very clear and have very well established meaning) and others that are Mutashabihat (unclear), and we will see some people with sick heart who will try hard to explain those UNCLEAR verses, seeking discord or just seeking to explain it,
In this sign there is mentioned ta'wila-hu which means the interpretation which they, who seek to cause fitna/sowing dissention, desire. These it is who make an interpretation of the cosimilar signs based on their desire to cause fitna. They do not heed the direction of interpretation of these cosimilar signs according to the firm ayatin in alkitab/the decree.
while NONE will know its meaning but Allah, however the true submitters will say both are from Allah and they will declare their belief in both the Clear and the Unclear verses
I believe those with knowledge shoud verify all things . We are given the keys to unearth the authenticity of alquran which is a clear reading.
you see pepole with sick hearts WILL TRY TO CHASE THEIR MEANINGS to try (Ta'awiloh) (Explain it) or to cause discord, this can not be the case with "CLEAR SIMILAR VERSES"
I agree that people will seek to cause fitna in the interpretations of their desire of the cosimilar signs.
the believers on the other hand will not try either, they will just accept it as both from Allah
The mumin are people possessed of understanding and do not just accept anything.
mate your point is a total non sense, sorry
No need to apologize. We disagree. My views are nonesense to different people besides yourself.
the same root can be used to compose words with totally different meanings
I totally agree with you.
they are unclear which one of them, and that is also another context to the verse, but I accept the first one that they said all the cows look similar
I do not think it is because the people are unclear that they are asking. This is a case where people do not follow simple direction and in ignorance ask for unnecessary details.
using your logic, then the Mutshabihat verses MUST BE THE SAME EXACTLY AS WELL THE SAME LETTERS, WORDS and ORDER, so when you see it for the first time they will look the same exactly
This is not my logic. What you are saying to me is very confusing.
got my point?
I got your point, but you totally blew out of proportion what I meant. What you are talking about now is not what I was saying. When I said similar I was not talking about the same words, letters, etc.
and because the Kitab is in Arabic as Allah planned so, I will rsort only to the arabic language to understand it, make sense bro?
Certainly, I get you completely.
I have no problem to accept that meaning, but you should know that the arabic word Mutashabihat also means UNCLEAR
I understand that it can mean such. This I never denied.
it says simply that this is the Book that its verses were put together with wisdom then the verses were greatly detailed by the All mighty Allah
When I say plain I mean evident or clear. The ayat says fussilat (from f-s-l = to distinguish, make distinct) which means plain or detailed.
Arabic also is the language I speak since i was a baby
Please stop gloating about your arabic this and your arabic is that. I understood you the first time when you said arabic was your native tongue. You do not need to repeat it so many times. Layth too speaks arabic and has translated mutashabih as similar. His interpretation, like mine, differs from yours.
Joe
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Ahmad,
I agree with you. The word has more than one meaning and it can mean 'unclear.' There are alot of people here who don't want to realize that a word can have more than one meaning. Secondly, you are part right about 'fa' it can be 'sabaabiyah' but it doesn't have to be. Fa and wa in Classical Arabic (not modern Arabic) can have the very same meaning. You can see this in different Quranic texts where wa is used in one text and 'fa' is used in another in the same place.
Godbless,
proGod -
Peace Ahmed,
Peace Joe
mate the opposite of decisive is "Unclear"
This is true. I do not think this ayat is speaking of opposites as you are.
I also don't think that the clear arabic verse should be translated as you think it is
Allah is saying the Quran has clear verses and unclear verses
I do not believe God is sending unclear signs .
you see your confusion is coming from the following
Aya means two things in arabic
- A miracle
- A verse in the Quran
so 37 is talking about verses in the Quran not signs like the sun and the moon
the sun and the moon are clear signs that Allah exist
the whole Quran is a clear Sign (miracle) the Allah is exists
the verses in the Quran is something else than signs, they are Ayata (verses) words to be read, within the context there might be a hidden sign., but not in every verse you will see a hidden sign for sure
your lack of arabic is evident
Allah said here is the Quran that I sent you
The ayat we are speaking of does not say this.
Ayat means two things in arabic
Miracles
and
verses in the Quran
can't be clearer than that
in it we will find Muhkam Ayat (very clear and have very well established meaning) and others that are Mutashabihat (unclear), and we will see some people with sick heart who will try hard to explain those UNCLEAR verses, seeking discord or just seeking to explain it,
In this sign there is mentioned ta'wila-hu which means the interpretation which they, who seek to cause fitna/sowing dissention, desire. These it is who make an interpretation of the cosimilar signs based on their desire to cause fitna. They do not heed the direction of interpretation of these cosimilar signs according to the firm ayatin in alkitab/the decree.
I don't know what you are talking about above, but it seems you chose to follow a difficult path, good luck
while NONE will know its meaning but Allah, however the true submitters will say both are from Allah and they will declare their belief in both the Clear and the Unclear verses
I believe those with knowledge shoud verify all things . We are given the keys to unearth the authenticity of alquran which is a clear reading.
I will look at the verses later and try to understand what you mean, no hold on I remember 1736
your total interpetation to it is 100% flawed, the verse never said people with knowledge should verify all things, this is misleading
the verse says "PEOPLE WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE SHOULD NOT ARGUE"
like what many are doing herr with the arabic language which they have very lil knowledge, this is funny indeed, verse 1736 is exposing those
you see pepole with sick hearts WILL TRY TO CHASE THEIR MEANINGS to try (Ta'awiloh) (Explain it) or to cause discord, this can not be the case with "CLEAR SIMILAR VERSES"
I agree that people will seek to cause fitna in the interpretations of their desire of the cosimilar signs.
Ayat in verse 37 means VERSES not signs
can't be cleaer than this
the believers on the other hand will not try either, they will just accept it as both from Allah
The mumin are people possessed of understanding and do not just accept anything.
Understanding that Allah exist and the Quran is His book, not understanding the cosmos
mate your point is a total non sense, sorry
No need to apologize. We disagree. My views are nonesense to different people besides yourself.
if you are offended, just in case I'm sorry
the same root can be used to compose words with totally different meanings
I totally agree with you.
finally we agreed, thank you lol
they are unclear which one of them, and that is also another context to the verse, but I accept the first one that they said all the cows look similar
I do not think it is because the people are unclear that they are asking. This is a case where people do not follow simple direction and in ignorance ask for unnecessary details.
well, that is what verse 1736 is talking about, you may also check 5101-102
using your logic, then the Mutshabihat verses MUST BE THE SAME EXACTLY AS WELL THE SAME LETTERS, WORDS and ORDER, so when you see it for the first time they will look the same exactly
This is not my logic. What you are saying to me is very confusing.
well I might show an example then
got my point?
I got your point, but you totally blew out of proportion what I meant. What you are talking about now is not what I was saying. When I said similar I was not talking about the same words, letters, etc.
well, that is what "Shabah" means, they look the same
i.e. an apple will look like an apple
a cow will look like a cow
words will look like words
a twins will be "Shabah" each other
and you will be UNCLEAR which one is who from the twins
and because the Kitab is in Arabic as Allah planned so, I will rsort only to the arabic language to understand it, make sense bro?
Certainly, I get you completely.
I have no problem to accept that meaning, but you should know that the arabic word Mutashabihat also means UNCLEAR
I understand that it can mean such. This I never denied.
we are even then, LOL
Please stop gloating about your arabic this and your arabic is that. I understood you the first time when you said arabic was your native tongue. You do not need to repeat it so many times. Layth too speaks arabic and has translated mutashabih as similar. His interpretation, like mine, differs from yours. Joe
well, your request is very strange, and I?m not gloating it, it is a fact, but I would be happy if Layth would like to discuss this matter with me (the Mutshabihat matter) in fact it is much more convenient for me to discuss it with someone who speaks Arabic fluently
Peace Joe
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Peace Ahmed
Joe
Likewise Joe
Ahmed
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well, your request is very strange, and I?m not gloating it, it is a fact, but I would be happy if Layth would like to discuss this matter with me (the Mutshabihat matter) in fact it is much more convenient for me to discuss it with someone who speaks Arabic fluently
Peace Ahmed,
Your viewpoint seems to hold that only a person fluent in Arabic is capable of understanding the reading and this can be shown to be false; but is ultimately irrelevant.
The God is not an Arab God - the dialogue and conversations described in the reading didn't even happen in Arabic (and this is one of the reasons I have previously argued gives rise to the different renditions of the passages) - there is nothing special or sacred about Arabic.
The reason it is irrelevant however is not for these reasons, but because people have the ability to act in a righteous way without the need to know Arabic - or even to have read the koran.
Peace/
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well, your request is very strange, and I?m not gloating it, it is a fact, but I would be happy if Layth would like to discuss this matter with me (the Mutshabihat matter) in fact it is much more convenient for me to discuss it with someone who speaks Arabic fluently
Peace Ahmed,
Hello bro
Your viewpoint seems to hold that only a person fluent in Arabic is capable of understanding the reading and this can be shown to be false; but is ultimately irrelevant.
Not exactly a general point, it is a point when it comes to discuss the hard subjects, like Iblis or verse 37 or verse 1736
But for the majority of the Quran, possibly 80% to 90%, anyone can understand it even the ones who don't speak Arabic, i believe, me and you understood the Khanzir issue the same
The God is not an Arab God -
I agree, but the Quran is an Arabic Quran, which is a message that is repeated numerous times, this repetition make look Mutashabihat to you, while for me the verses looks Muhkamat to me
?We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.?
(2)
-> Why you think Allah said an Arabic Quran?, why He did not say ?He sent down the Quran??, I know it was said as such without the ?Arabic? word in many other locations, but why in here?,
Will the message be repeated?, let?s see
?Thus have We revealed it to be a judgment of authority in Arabic. Wert thou to follow their (vain) desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither protector nor defender against Allah.?
(37)
-> The Quran was called here ?Hukman? i.e. ?judgment of authority?, but again the word ?Arabic? proceeded the word ?Hukman?, why, you think?
?Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).?
(113)
-> The same repetition that it is ?an Arabic Quran?, the verse here does not look Mutashabihat to 122 nor 1337, while we have the same similar message within, what do you think?
?(It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein) in order that they may guard against Evil.?
(2
-> Again the Quran was called ?Arabic Quran?
?A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-?
(3)
-> The Quran was called ?the Arabic Quran? again, but look how the Arabic Quran came after ? verses are explained in detail?
?Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and all around her,- and warn (them) of the Day of Assembly, of which there is no doubt (when) some will be in the Garden, and some in the Blazing Fire.?
(7)
-> Same message bro ?The Arabic Quran? that will be used warn the cities around, would you reckon the Mothers of cities mentioned in the verse means only the Arabic major cities, or every city in the Globe?
I reckon it is every city in the globe and whatever is around each of them, but we know that all cities don?t speak Arabic, so why Allah say Arabic Quran in here?, what do you reckon?
?We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand (and learn wisdom).?
(3)
-> This is a good verse, can you see Allah is saying ?We ha made it a Quran in Arabic?, so we will be able to understand?
Who do you reckon will comprehend it quicker without being religiously oriented, I mean regarding words, grammar and meanings- Someone with an Arabic mother tongue OR
- Someone with a foreigner mother tongue who does not speak Arabic
?
I?m talking literally here, you don?t even have to be a Muslim for the above question
?And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.?
(12)
-> Nice sequence for the verses I brought on the table, in the above verse the Quran was called ?An Arabic Tongue?, why you reckon?
?We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic and clear tongue.?
(103)
-> Again the Quran was called ?Arabic and Clear Tongue?, this is really an important question, why you reckon the clear Arabic tongue was used in a metaphor manner to describe the Quran ?
Would that mean that someone who is a native Arabic speaker will understand it quicker?, not to believe I mean just to understand the clear Arabic words and clear Arabic sentences used
You see the way most Muslims here especially the Quran alone ones make a fuss of the clear Arabic words and come up with totally different means that will render the Quran ?UNCLEAR?, i.e. the Quran lied
?In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.?
(195)
-> And finally the Quran was described again as ?perspicuous Arabic tongue?
Do all the above verses ?Ayat? sound Mutashabihat to you?
Truly they sound Muhkamat to me because their meanings are crystal clear, now I will take the chance and show you two verses that anyone can call similar verses and even relativity will have no effect, we will all agree, I don?t need to post the English meaning, just look at it and compare please
(47)
(122)
-> There is no difference whatsoever between the above 2 verses in sure no. 2, what do you think of the reason it was repeated?, as well, would you classify both as Mutashabihat?, and if so can you please explain how it can be used to cause discord? thanks
the dialogue and conversations described in the reading didn't even happen in Arabic
I will concede that we don?t know what language used within the conversation
(and this is one of the reasons I have previously argued gives rise to the different renditions of the passages) ?
But it was told to us by Allah in Arabic, He created all the languages as He told us in the Quran, and He chose the Arabic out of?m all to finish His message with
there is nothing special or sacred about Arabic.
truly, there is something special but not sacred about that language I can try to explain but it is going to be hard as I?m not a qualified Arabic language teacher rather a native Arabic speaker who knew the grammar at my early days really well, you may search the net better and I can help with any question later,
Do you think after all that repetition by Allah ?The Arabic Quran?, ?The Clear Arabic Tongue? and ?The Arabic Hukom?, is possibly a statement from Allah that there is something special about this language?
The reason it is irrelevant however is not for these reasons, but because people have the ability to act in a righteous way without the need to know Arabic - or even to have read the koran.
Peace/I still say we need the basic guidance from our God as He promised Adam and Abraham, you can act righteous and reject the Quran but you will be rewarded for the good deeds only in this life then no life will be after while you will be alive, very scary indeed
Peace
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Peace Ahmed,
It is blindingly obvious that the reading is in the Arabic script and language; whether the text mentions it or not.
However you have highlighted something that now should arouse in you another question. Why would this word "AAarabiyan" mean Arabic when it is painfully obvious what it is.
The reason should be clear to you if it isn't already.
It's because the meaning of "AAarabiyan" does not mean Arabic the language but rather related to the root meaning 'Aruba Ain-Ra-Ba
To express one's mind clearly, to be pure and free of faults, eloquence, pure
It is a description not of which language it is in, but its quality as the surrounding statements always highlight. It is obvious what language it is - it would be pointless me saying that this post is in the English language - would it not?
Peace.
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Peace truth
I agree it will be pointless, unless there is a message behind it, the message is really known and proven which is the main miracle in the Quran is the Arabic language used, that is why it included a challenge for any Arabic professional to right three lines like it In the Arabic Language, lol
now according to your metaphor explanation, the above challenge will not make any sense and is nothing but a joke
peace bro
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Peace truth
I agree it will be pointless, unless there is a message behind it, the message is really known and proven which is the main miracle in the Quran is the Arabic language used, that is why it included a challenge for any Arabic professional to right three lines like it In the Arabic Language, lol
now according to your metaphor explanation, the above challenge will not make any sense and is nothing but a joke
peace bro
Peace Ahmed,
On the contrary, it is quite easy to write 3 lines of Arabic language.
It is difficult on the other hand to write three lines of faultless, clear minded, pure and eloquent language.
I hope this makes it even clearer.
Regards.
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The challenge was not realy to right 3 lines like it bro, it was to write a sura like it and because the smallest sura is three verses I just rendered it 3 lines, in fact three verses is like a line and a half
yep I can write 100 lines in arabic, even 1000 lines in arabic, even 10,000 lines, BUT CAN ANY OF THE LINES BE LIKE THE ARABIC QURAN? NO for sure, because many tried and failed over the history, and can discuss this with you if you wish
but truley if you know how to read arabic then you read all the hadith and compare it with the Quran, you will know HOW DIFFERENENT IS ALLAH WORDS from the human words, and a language like Arabic is requred for Allah to take the upper hand, because it is a very special language regarding its structure
the challenge is to write in arabic not in any other language and must be like the Quran style and with a message, not just meaingless arabic words
what you suggested make it complicated not clearer, sorry bro
peace
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Peace Ahmed,
You are still hanging on to the "Arabic is special" myth. I can assure you that had the God chosen any language on the earth - no matter which one it was; a reading from the God in that language would be equally faultless and equally inimitable.
Linguists and philologists have examined languages of humans from all over the planet and find that each language is equally as rich as any other in terms of its concepts and features. Though they may differ they are all a reflection of the amazing creation of the God - the human brain that is able to understand and communicate language.
3022 And from His signs are the creation of the heavens and the Earth, and the difference of your languages and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
Please try to see your "Arab elitism" for what it is. The God is indifferent to the language a person speaks or understands. Each language is able to convey the truth.
You can't say that a truth expressed in the Arabic language is twice as true as one in another language.
I hope you understand.
Regards.
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ok bro thank you
peace
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Salaam All,
I thought that Iblis discussion was to an end shock
Peace Sis Majidah
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Ahmad,
I agree with you. The word has more than one meaning and it can mean 'unclear.' There are alot of people here who don't want to realize that a word can have more than one meaning. Secondly, you are part right about 'fa' it can be 'sabaabiyah' but it doesn't have to be. Fa and wa in Classical Arabic (not modern Arabic) can have the very same meaning. You can see this in different Quranic texts where wa is used in one text and 'fa' is used in another in the same place.
Godbless,
proGodsorry bro I just saw your comment
Yes man I agree that the Fa can also means Wa but in the context it sound like the Fa Al Sababia to me, have you heard about the Fa Al Sababbia?, I'm basing it on the context of the extra info provided that he was one of the Jinn, if we consider the Fa as Wa, try replacing it in the verse with Wa and read it in arabic if you can, it will sound really odd, while it may be gramatically correct
but I will still accept it as Wa if it is gramatically correct, for me it will not change the coclusion that Iblis was a Jinn and was given a rank of a Malak
Peace be with you brother
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Salam all,
Since I have any evidence from the Reading that the malaika are also jinn, and whatever the meaning attributed to the word illa (except, but...), my understanding at this stage about the satute of Iblis didn't change. Neither Adam nor Iblis lost their statutes (human being and jinn respectively) before and after they were driven out aljannat. 1850 is clear and didn't need any interpretation, imho.
Thank you all for your understandings.
Peace and best wishes
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Peace Ahmed Bahgat,
I do not know, as Allah did not say the malaika were created with freewill
If you do not know then you should gain knowledge and reexamine your conclusions. The fact is that obedience or disobedience is meaningless if one doesn't have freedom of choice.
As well I careless to know,
How can you gain knowledge if you don't care?
but it is enough to know that the humans are higher than the malaika because they have freewill while they don?t
Higher than controllers!? Don't you find this a little presumptuous? Most humans are only higher when it comes to ignorant boasting and arrogance.
I agree, but noit any human, only the bad guys are called Shaitan, like the terroristys for example
The great reading is not some kind of entertaining Hollywood flick where one can identify the "bad guys/terrorists" because they usually wear dark clothes and speak with a Middle Eastern accent. In 6112 those who are exceeding in rebellion ("shayatin") are not described as "bad guys", they are described as people who invent decorated words to deceive people. The worst lies are those baseless decorated stories that people attribute to The God without knowledge. For example, we heard the entertaining but baseless story about Adam and mythical Eve living for 40 years in paradise, the snake, the apple and you know the rest.
However that is just a nickname, Iblis was a Jinn nicknamed Shaitan
This is funny. I don't think that The God uses "nicknames" in the great reading like Hollywood nick naming bad guys "Scarecrow" and "The Joker". Moreover, this comment shows your ignorance of the Arabic language. The word "shaitan" is not a meaningless label. It is an Arabic intensified common noun of the form "fa3lan" that has a meaning that you can easily look up in Classical Arabic dictionaries. It has a meaning of "something that exceeded the limits, something intensely burned and something wasted'. Some Classical Arabic dictionaries say that the letter "noon" is part of the root and in this case its form is "fay3al" and it is derived from the root "sh t n" instead of "sh y t / sh a t". In this case, the meaning is "one who diverted from his destination".
well, I can take it as any of the following possibilities
- Allah ordered Iblis to prostrate in another event that is later on to the angel ones
This is baseless conjecture.
- Allah made Iblis to think (fooled him) that iblis became an angel and the order was given to all in the vicinity as him being an angel virtually but not for real, bear in mind that Allah was fooling Iblis, this is evident from the Quran when Iblis said...
The Arabic word ?Aghwaitani? does not mean ?put me in the wrong? rather it means ?TO FOOL?, so verse 1539 should be literally and briefly as follow
?Iblis said God as you fooled me I will fool them all
and the same word was used in verse 1542 to describe the ones who will follow Iblis as ?Ghaween? ?Fools?
Again, you are showing your ignorance of Arabic. Here is the meaning of "ghawa" and "aghwa" from Lisan Al-3arab
()
As you can see, there is nothing here about "fooling". The meaning has to do with misguiding NOT fooling. This is consistent with what we are told allover the great reading about The God guiding and misguiding whom He wills (not fooling).
This is false because according to 3372, everything had the freedom to CHOOSE whether to accept the trust or not.
Yes.
Mate, I?m sorry before you accuse me of being wrong I would love that you support your claim, while you did by posting a reference to a Quran verse without any elaboration by you
3372 is clear. It is indisputable that one must have freedom of choice BEFORE he can accept or refuse something.
So let me elaborate and prove to you that I was right, not sure if you are wrfong or not really, I?m talking about what I know according to the Quran that I studied well Alahamdullellah and still studying it, here is the verse
YUSUFALI We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish;-
PICKTHAL Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.
SHAKIR Surely We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to be unfaithful to it and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant;(72)
-> where exactly that it says everything have freewill?,It is common sense. Again, one must have freedom of choice BEFORE he can accept or refuse something.
let?s look at Yusuf Ali translation ? We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish;-?, what is wrong here bro?, it says clearly that the Trust to the (HEAVENS, THE EARTH AND THE MOUNTAIN) was offered and the declined to undertake it
firstly the verse does not say everything only three things mentioned, while I agree that the heaven and earth cover a lot of things, but it does not cover humans, jinn, and animals.
It covers everything in the heavens and the earth but the controllers are not part of the heaven and the earth as per 1649
- And to The God complies/obeys what is in the heavens and what is in the earth from a mover, and the controllers, and they are not being arrogant.
So the controllers were not offered the trust.
secondly, what is trust mentioned in the verse?, the ? ? pronounced ?Al Amana?, It is simply to have a freewill and be held accountable,
This is baseless conjecture. There is nothing in 3372, 20115 or anywhere else in the great reading that says that the trust/"al-amana" is free will. This is either your own false invention or someone else's false invention that you blindly borrowed.
the Quran describe our failure to carry the ?Amana? in the following verse
?We had already, beforehand, taken the covenant of Adam, but he forgot and We found on his part no firm resolve.?
(115)
Again, nothing here says that the trust/"amana" is freewill. Bring any proof.
-> This Amana that was declined by the heavens and earth and mountains means that since that moment they have no freewill, this sound really true, I can see the same stars every day, I can also see the sun every day, possibly the sun may want to have a date with another star like Sirius for example?, just kiddin mate , but truly it seems that the Sun and the moon have no freewill, or what do you think?
It seems so because they CHOOSE to obey The God. They know something that we don't. That is why we are described as IGNORANT for accepting the trust in 3372.
well the Quran actually told us about an event when after Amana was offered to the heavens and Earth, let?s look at it
?Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly.?(11)
-> You see, after Allah created the heaven and earth and they declined the Amana they were told to stay on course willingly or unwillingly, they preferred to come stay on course willingly,
The expression "willingly or unwillingly" becomes meaningless nonsense if they didn't have freedom of choice to choose between "willingly OR unwillingly". You said yourself that they PREFERRED (i.e. CHOSE) to come willingly. So you are contradicting yourself.
while a human like me and you can go astray with our freewill that was given to us, that Amana that Adam carried
From the great reading, we can see that HUMANS too will come to The God willingly or unwillingly. It is no different than the rest of creation.
Again I can?t see anything in the Arabic verse that suggest the slightest that Iblis seems confident that he knows the future, the verse does not even suggest that he knows the future while not being confident, the verse does not say what you suggested at all, it simply says that Iblis will attack the humans from all directions
?"Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies).?
(17)
He clearly sees that MOST WILL NOT BE THANKFUL. The God doesn't correct his prediction by saying "no you are wrong and most will be thankful". Instead, The God confirms his prediction by saying "I will FILL hell of you and all those who follow you".
The Quran actually told us that the Jinn can?t know the unseen
?Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task).?(14)
-> I.E. The Jinn failed to know that Soloman is dead for long time, while they thought was was still alive a leaning on his staff
Yes, the "jinn" don't know the hidden. However, per 714 "iblis" was given respite until the time of resurrection. Thus, it is clear from passages such as 848 that he can see the hidden
- And when the one who exceeded the limits decorated for them their works, and he said "There are no defeaters from the people for you today and I am a savior for you." So when the two groups saw each other, he returned on his two heels, and he said "I am innocent from you, I SEE/UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU DO NOT SEE/UNDERSTAND, I fear The God, and The God is severe in punishment."
they diod not disobey God because they have no freewill and MUST OBEY ALL THE TIME, Iblis had a freewill to decline
So according to you someone who has freewill can't obey The God and only mindless mechanical things without ability to choose can obey Him. This is logically false.
didn?t you ask yourself if they know that Adam will shed blood and cause mischief why the prostrated to him then?, because they have no choice
They obeyed because they CHOSE to obey The God because The God knows best, NOT because they have no choice.
at least if they declined to prostrate using their good argument that humans will shed blood and cause mischief on earth it would have merit than Iblis argument that he is better than Adam because he was created from fire
But they already presented that argument when The God told them about His decision and The God refuted it. I don't think that the controllers are mindless tape recorders that keep repeating the same argument after it has been refuted before.
The malaika CAN NOT BE TESTED, they have no freewill
Make sense?No, it doesn't make sense. There is nothing in the great reading that says that the controllers are mindless mechanical objects that have no freedom of choice.
On the other hand, there is evidence that they have free choice. For example
They CHOSE to question The God's decision (230).
They CHOSE to hide in themselves what they really thought (233).
They CHOSE to act on their own and kill an innocent boy in 1880-81.
They CHOSE to obey The God and obey Adam while one of them ("iblis") didn't.
Had they inhabited the earth, they too would get a messenger (1795).where you got that they argued from?
One gets this picture by putting 230, 233 and 3969 together. Besides, questioning a decision made by the Almighty is certainly not a good thing.
they only wondered and because Allah is the Most fair and Just He allowed them to question Him, exactly as he allowed Iblis to Question God, as you can Question God, but you have freewill to submit like Iblis and like me, the Malaika has no free will and has to submit all the time, that does not mean they are not allowed to ask a question though
To be able to "question", you have to choose to question. Thus, you MUST have freedom of choice. From your statement, you seem to understand that our ability to question results from our freedom of choice but you fail to apply the same logic to the controllers. Thus, your statement above sounds contradictory.
well again you interpretation is very flawed they were asked to prostrate not to obey Adam, but how the angels can see the future?, they said they know nothing except what Allah told them 232
I don't think that they were asked to bang their foreheads on the floor. Wiping one's forehead on the floor is meaningless. Someone who makes any kind of physical gesture, whether it is banging his head on the floor or on a holy wall, but doesn't obey The God hasn't really done "sujud". Hence, it is not surprising that the majority of those who do it disobey The God.
So my question is do you believe there is a physical entity called Malaika? (yes /No)
I do not mean statusThere is a group described as controllers/"malaika" just like there is a group described as "mu'minin"/"those who have faith". Both groups are populated by creatures but their membership of the group is not based on their physical properties, it is based on their status. Like "iman", "taqwa", etc. "mlk" is also a status. This is clear and simple as per 326, which you totally ignore.
You have failed to address the clear statement in 326 that "mlk" is a status that is given and taken away at will by The God.
that is fine that is exactly what I?m talking about he was given a status of malaika, did you read this in my comment or not
No, I didn't see that in your comments. The fact is that ALL controllers/"malaika" were given that status by The God as per 326.
anyway do you believe that Angels is just a status or a physical entity like me and you?
Angels are mythical biblical creatures flying around in white robes and halos and I am sorry, but unlike you, I don't believe in biblical fairy tales.
As for the controllers, those two aspects are not mutually exclusive. One can be a physical human and earn the non-physical status of "mu'min" at the same time. Similarly, any creature even a cockroach can be given the status of "malak"/controller by The God. This is common sense in light of 326. The God's hands are not tied.
The Malaika are also for real, Allah described them in great details, yes Ma la Ka is to control, but what is the point arn;t the malaika control a lot of things?
Perhaps if you understood 326, you would understand the point and see that The God doesn't pointlessly describe them as "malak"/controller.
Peace,
Ayman