The Omnipotent, Omnipresent, All knowing but Doing Nothing?
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Peace be upon you Agentxxx,
salam idolfree1,
some things are easier said then done,Everything is "hard" until you train yourself. Lifting 350 pounds on benchpress is "hard" until you train yourself, then it is "easy". Not eating pork is "hard" until you train yourself, etc.
12- Yusuf
84And he turned away from them and said "How great is my grief for Joseph!" And his eyes became white with sorrow and he fell into silent melancholy.
85They said "By Allah! (never) wilt thou cease to remember Joseph until thou reach the last extremity of illness or until thou die!
86He said "I only complain of my distraction and anguish to Allah and I know from Allah that which ye know not...There is a deeper side to this story which am not prepared to expound upon, but how do you reconcile the contradiction that creates with the verse that says believers never despair?
Stilllearning, may the God increase the inner peace of you and your family so that you remain guided in this test.
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peace if1,
Everything is "hard" until you train yourself. Lifting 350 pounds on benchpress is "hard" until you train yourself, then it is "easy". Not eating pork is "hard" until you train yourself, etc.
it depends form person to person my friend, not eating pork was never hard for me even when i was studying in england and was living in usa for a while. but not everyone can lift 350 pounds no matter how hard they train ) .
There is a deeper side to this story which am not prepared to expound upon, but how do you reconcile the contradiction that creates with the verse that says believers never despair?
these contradicting verses are Problematic for me to understand and they are so many of them, this is why people keep on discussing but never arrive at a single Conclusion, we can all find verses to support our view points. my fair guess is different commandmends according to different situations.
God bless you
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truth says
The translations are misleading.
"Be and it becomes".We don?t seem to agree on any translation of the verses of Quran, we like to interpret the translations according to our own desires or suitability, at least this is what I have noticed in all the Islamic forums I have visited or all the discussions I have viewed on tv.
Arabic has no verb 'to be' - the rendition in the translations is therefore wishful thinking. We know that the universe came about due to processes and cause and effect.
Thus when the command is given things don't just appear there like magic - they become.
The laws of the universe are not broken. The God has put into place a system of laws / physics that must take place. The continents must slide, the earthquakes happen as a consequence.
No one has an anchor implanted firmly in this world. Life is temporary, fleeting. The death of these people may be a mercy, and it is certainly a test, and the God promises that people will be tested.
What about parting of the red sea? Turning humans who transgressed into apes or swines?
Causing a man to die for 100 years? or the sleepers of the cave for 309 years? And my friend what about the destruction of the town of lot? Or Aad ? Laws of physics or Gods wrath?These stories are allegorical to the extent that you did not witness them.
You give two allegories of time passing for longer than a lifetime and this illustrates the changing nature of history and that people shouldn't despair at their situation in time as everything can be changed by the God.
But it doesn't just happen overnight. It takes 309 years for the changes of ordinary people living righteous lives and struggling to change the order of society.
I just want to finally bring your attention to the nature of these 'disasters' that happen in our world.
If there were no humans living in earthquake prone areas, or at the base of volcanoes, or on the coast of a tsunami occuring land... and these events happenned like they did millions of years ago.
Would they be 'disasters' then?
If people choose to live in places like this then it behooves them to construct accordingly.
In Japan, one of the most earthquake prone countries in the world they have earthquake simulators under samples of new apartments being constructed to demonstrate to buyers the earthquake resistance of multi-storey buildings.
And when earthquakes happen in Japan you see the buildings rock around a bit but none collapse. Why then when an earthquake occurs like the 1999 Turkish earthquake, all the buildings in a town becomes like pancake stacks or reduced down to rubble and thousands upon thousands perish.
Because the builders of those buildings give short measure - they fail to use the steel needed, they create houses of cards - and because of it people die.
If I set up a trap by digging a hole in the ground, putting sharp stakes at the bottom and covering it and no one drops in the hole until 3 years later to die - am I guilty of killing that person or is it some failure in a divine sense? There can be many years between the act that causes mass killing.
I hope that helps.
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Peace All,
Some excellent points brought up all around. It's nice to see a peaceful exchange of ideas.
Just thought I'd add to Truth's expression of what we call natural disasters. This dawned on me last year during the hurricanes. If humans are taken out of the equation, there is nothing disasterous about them. In fact, they are vital. Hurricanes bring massive amounts of water from the sea to the land. In addition, animals and plant life are made into fertilizer to spread over the land, ensuring new growth and continuing the cycle of life.
If you think of the Earth as an organic form of life, which it is, shifting, heating up, cooling down, breathing, cleaning itself, etc., then it's not hard to understand why these phenomena occur.
It is our Earthly existence that is affected by the Earth's conditions. It's not good or bad, it just is.
Peace,
Tay -
If you think of the Earth as an organic form of life, which it is, shifting, heating up, cooling down, breathing, cleaning itself, etc., then it's not hard to understand why these phenomena occur.
Yes I can understand that Tay, but I think the question still remains If GOD is omnipotent and compassionate why does he not intervene when his own laws creates so much death and destruction?
Perhaps we will never know the answer to this question...
Regards,
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Peace be upon you all,
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Everything is "hard" until you train yourself. Lifting 350 pounds on benchpress is "hard" until you train yourself, then it is "easy". Not eating pork is "hard" until you train yourself, etc.Agentxxx
it depends form person to person my friend, not eating pork was never hard for me even when i was studying in england and was living in usa for a while. but not everyone can lift 350 pounds no matter how hard they train .Agreed, but the point is t hat "hard and "easy" are only based on training. While not eating pork was easy for you, there is something else in life that appeared "hard" for you to give up until you trained your mind, now it is "easy".
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There is a deeper side to this story which am not prepared to expound upon, but how do you reconcile the contradiction that creates with the verse that says believers never despair?these contradicting verses are Problematic for me to understand and they are so many of them, this is why people keep on discussing but never arrive at a single Conclusion, we can all find verses to support our view points. my fair guess is different commandmends according to different situations.
I dont see any contradictions personally, except now for the one created by your response about Josephs father crying, but t is only a matter of studying deeper. If you are interested, start a thread about the other contradictions you see and lets see if we can resolve them objectively enough that everyone will agree.
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Peace be upon you,
The earth is a living thing, it reacts to "virus" just like the human body. The human is destroying the earth, like a virus, so what would be the remedy? Get rid of the human. Cause and effect on a grand scale.
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Peace be upon you,
The earth is a living thing, it reacts to "virus" just like the human body. The human is destroying the earth, like a virus, so what would be the remedy? Get rid of the human. Cause and effect on a grand scale.
I also think in the same line bro...D have u watched the movie "Final Fantasy (spirit within)" ?
peace
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Peace be upon you SA,
No, I havent seen final fantasy, but the "spirit within" peaks my interest. I'll check it out. Is that also a video game?
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Peace agentxxx and thanks for you answer and patience,
May I ask you, do you think death is a 'bad' thing? For a moment, don't think of anything else, like the time of death or the action that results in death... just death itself.
It depends brother? For the person who dies maybe it isn?t bad but for his/her loved ones, it is terrible.
What do you think about it?
As bro kyle pointed out, these are all reactions to death. Ultimately death is necessary, inevitable... death just is. Same as life just is. Whether 1 person died or 100,000 died it's still the same to those people's families. Whether they died during an earthquake, tsunami, got bombed in a war... it's still death. Which is what I was asking you about. Sure the feeling/reaction from loved ones following a death is tough, but when the emotions fade, since they are only there for as long as we hold on to them, what is left?In the grand scheme of things, who are we, but arrogant creatures who think the world revolves around us?... What is this earth, but a mud ball in the vast universe among universes? Perhaps a more apt question would be... Why are we here? idea
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Whether they died during an earthquake, tsunami, got bombed in a war... it's still death.
But do we not want a dignified death? as oppose to getting shot in the back of the head? or building falling on our head? or being drowned by waters? or being roasted alive by a volcanic lava?
Do we not want to die with dignity? and not be torn so violently from our family and friends?
If God is OMNIPOTENT why HE is unable to intervene?
Perhpas we can never anser this question?
Regards,
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
The God has the POWER to do anything, but the God has made life base on LAW to test us, this is all an illusion. It doesnt matter how we die.
Many of us want to be rich and all kinds of wants, but it does not happen. Its not about what we want, its about the UNLIMITED ABILITY to remain at peace while going through our destiny (what has been chosen for us). We are all destined to have certain experiences, it is about how we respond to these experiences that determines our quality of life.
That "unlimited ability" is the human manifestation of that attribute OMNIPOTENCE, the ability to change into any personality at will. Most of us say "I am this way and I cant change", so they go through life trying to address all situations in one way, but we have the ability to change and address situations the way they should be addressed. SOme people are "fiery" some are "cool", but we can change to any personality.
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salaam
But do we not want a dignified death? as oppose to getting shot in the back of the head? or building falling on our head? or being drowned by waters? or being roasted alive by a volcanic lava?
Do we not want to die with dignity? and not be torn so violently from our family and friends?
If God is OMNIPOTENT why HE is unable to intervene?
Perhpas we can never anser this question
?You are capable of making sense!
salaam idolfree
Thank you for your sentiments I am from Kashmir-the part which has not been too badly effectd
regards -
Peace LoteTree,
You asked
If GOD is omnipotent and compassionate why does he not intervene when his own laws creates so much death and destruction?
I'd say it's because "death and destruction" are not necessarily bad. They are just a part of life. This life is a fleeting moment in comparison to eternity. It is a nanosecond. Further, we attach these labels, as things being horrible and terrible when in reality, it is only our own projection. That's why I used hurricanes as examples. Without the human description, a hurricane or a tsunami or an earthquake is just a natural occurrence. There's nothing horrible about it.
Peace,
Tay -
Whether they died during an earthquake, tsunami, got bombed in a war... it's still death.
But do we not want a dignified death? as oppose to getting shot in the back of the head? or building falling on our head? or being drowned by waters? or being roasted alive by a volcanic lava?
Do we not want to die with dignity? and not be torn so violently from our family and friends?
If God is OMNIPOTENT why HE is unable to intervene?
Perhpas we can never anser this question?
Regards,
If you've played a computer game, you know that you can act in a wrong way, make a wrong move, not anticipate something and end up getting 'bombed' or losing a life.
How would it be if the writer of the game made it so that the character emerges unscathed at every turn. The rules must be consistent and your appeal for intervention is a plea for inconsistency. The rules and the laws are set out.
Don't think of long life or dignified death. Think of what you can do NOW. What are you doing to better yourself and others?
Instead of pleading for intervention go and lobby the government to prosecute the makers of the death trap houses and regulate the construction of future buildings so there isn't a repetition. If the problem is money then find it, educate people, the list is endless on what you can do. In earthquakes its the buildings that cause the vast majority of the death and carnage.
There's no room for nihilism; don't just throw up your hands and ask futile questions and requests for the laws of existence to be broken. Do what's called for. Address the problem.
You and the original poster are the ones doing "nothing".
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salam,
shamsul-arefin wrote
Yes death is a natural thing...but that doesnt mean we see someone dying in pain and say..Oh!! its a natural thing!! why should we feel so bad abt it.!!
Why are we developing anyway..why are we trying to save life anyway...why the need of hospital?? Just let everyone die..!! Its so natural right??!!You said it all again
IF1 says
So if someone dies, does it follow we should respond with anger or sadness? What would happen if we instead just remained at peace? We ask that the deceased "rest in peace", but meanwhile we are back here destroying our health with states of TENSION.
Iknow its easier said than done, and might sound strange in this unguided world, but this is what we should be cultivating. The God says that those who trust should not despair, for anything.
Again it depends upon the circumstance? if a teenage girls is raped and killed how can his family remain at peace? if children die begging their helpless parents for day to get them out of the debris, how can they remain at peace? its absolutely unnatural.
What is trust in someone? You trust in someone is you confidence or your belief that in a dire situation that someone will help you, if that someone does not help you or support you, then give me one good reason why that trust should remain?Peace zenje,
but when the emotions fade, since they are only there for as long as we hold on to them, what is left?
Time is a healer and when your emotions subside you are left with memories, for sensitive people even they come back to haunt them at times.
In the grand scheme of things, who are we, but arrogant creatures who think the world revolves around us?... What is this earth, but a mud ball in the vast universe among universes? Perhaps a more apt question would be... Why are we here?
Here we are talking like carl sagan of cosmos fame ) as far as I am aware we are the only creature on planet earth who are capable of saving or destroying ourselves, other creatures as well as our planet.
Why are we here?.that is a question humane beings have not yet been able to answer. But it has always been there from the start.Truth says
What about parting of the red sea? Turning humans who transgressed into apes or swines?
Causing a man to die for 100 years? or the sleepers of the cave for 309 years? And my friend what about the destruction of the town of lot? Or Aad ? Laws of physics or Gods wrath?These stories are allegorical to the extent that you did not witness them.
Brother I am not a witness to the revelations of verses, neither am I a witness to the collection of Quran etc, so what should I say??
In Japan, one of the most earthquake prone countries in the world they have earthquake simulators under samples of new apartments being constructed to demonstrate to buyers the earthquake resistance of multi-storey buildings.
And when earthquakes happen in Japan you see the buildings rock around a bit but none collapse. Why then when an earthquake occurs like the 1999 Turkish earthquake, all the buildings in a town becomes like pancake stacks or reduced down to rubble and thousands upon thousands perish.
Because the builders of those buildings give short measure - they fail to use the steel needed, they create houses of cards - and because of it people die.
You are absolutely right there, but who has kept us Muslims away from research and technology or innovation? Misuse of Religion, yes brother it?s the misuse of religion, Blind faith, oh Allah will help us we are the best race, He will Guard us, this life is only temporary so why bother, eventually we all have to die so why bother. day of judgment is behind the corner etc .What we need is to redefine our priorities and separate state from religion then only can we advance in research and technology.
We have been reciting Quran since the last 1400 centuries, when ever there is a new discovery suddenly our scholars would start shouting this is not new its in the Quran,
Then Woe to you?..were you sleeping before?IF1 said
I dont see any contradictions personally, except now for the one created by your response about Josephs father crying, but t is only a matter of studying deeper. If you are interested, start a thread about the other contradictions you see and lets see if we can resolve them objectively enough that everyone will agree.
Ok my friend I will start new threads about the contradictions. I sincerely hope to learn from you guys at fm a lot for better understanding ) .
God bless you all.
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Yeah that earthquake in Pakistan was very bad.
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Peace All,
I recall when I first saw the practice of the male lion who dethrones the existing patriarch of a pride. If there are any cubs around, he goes and kills them one by one. Sometimes, he'll even eat them. When I first saw this, it tarnished my appreciation for lions. I always thought of them as majestic creatures, however, this behavior left me feeling disgusted as I felt so sorry for those poor defenseless cubs.
As I grew older and my interest in nature expanded, I began to understand these things as the workings of nature. These are necessary behaviors for the strength of the group, and the strength of the group is necessary for the local food chain, which is necessary for the ecosystem, etc.
The compassion I felt for the cubs was my own projection of fear upon them. For all I know, lions have no sense of fear whatsoever. So this emotion that welled up within me was of my own making based on my own fears and had nothing to do with the lions at all. The Qur'an tells us that all of life knows it's salat. These animals accept their role. Even the mothers of the cubs accept their role, for within 2 hours of all the cubs being massacred, the females go into heat and the new, stronger male plants his seeds. It's a sex party right after the mass murder!
Now, I am not saying that we should be like animals and move on after tragedy within 2 hours of the event. What I am saying is that while compassion is a necessary human emotion, we shouldn't get stuck in it to the point where it becomes self-sabotaging, even in words. It should be energizing, catapulting us to find ways to prevent unnecessary pain and suffering. That is what seperates us from the animals. Animals go right back into their routine. We, on the other hand, learn the lessons and improve.
Thousands of people died in the process of our learning how to build bridges, skyscrapers, dams, etc. Now we do these things pretty well.
Today we can re-route rivers, we can build islands, we can live in space. We can also destroy mountains and pollute, destroy forests, consume resources to extinction, and pollute entire ecosystems.God has given us an enormous playgorund to explore and learn from, to enjoy it's many secrets. And we've been left with the ability to either survive and prosper, or to deteriorate. Either way, the Earth will cleanse herself of us eventually. So, it's not a question of why does God not intervene and end the suffering. The intervention took place a long time ago. The suffering is our own doing, and we can undo it, in more ways than one.
Peace,
Tay -
peace tay,
you said
I recall when I first saw the practice of the male lion who dethrones the existing patriarch of a pride. If there are any cubs around, he goes and kills them one by one. Sometimes, he'll even eat them. When I first saw this, it tarnished my appreciation for lions.
I too felt the same way when I saw it the first time, I did wish the omnipotent could have designed it in a more merciful way It is a good example how our understanding changes through experience and knowledge.
I agree almost completly with what you say my friend.So, it's not a question of why does God not intervene and end the suffering.
Now why we ask such questions? if you are told to dial 911 for help in case of emergency By your parents, by the media, in the school, through billboards and news papers etc, but in case of emergencies you keep on dialing 911 for help and get absolutely no response, it will be normal for you to ask why they are no responding.
take care. -
Peace Agent,
So, it's not a question of why does God not intervene and end the suffering.
Now why we ask such questions? if you are told to dial 911 for help in case of emergency By your parents, by the media, in the school, through billboards and news papers etc, but in case of emergencies you keep on dialing 911 for help and get absolutely no response, it will be normal for you to ask why they are no responding.
take care.So Agent, you don't believe that God exists?