ARE THERE 13 BILLION ANGELS ON EARTH PRESENTLY?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Agentxxx,

I think first we need to make sure that we understand the brain is not the same as "mind". The Heart is a symbolism of the will which is the part of you that SEES and DECIDES. It is the part of you that choses direction. Which is interesting since the root word is the same for Qibla(direction/focus). The will/heart is what we call "mind" and is the middle part of the spirit, between the Divine and the Animal.

please comment on the following verses

552-Those in whose heart is a disease thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them saying "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory or a decision according to His Will. THEN WILL THEY REPENT OF THE THOUGHTS WHICH THEY SECRETLY HARBORED IN THEIR HEARTS.

Those with a diseased heart(will) do not understand that they must CHOOSE, so they rely on luck. So they do not DECIDE for themselves, but just follow.

quran says they secretly harbored the thoughts in their heart instead of brain?

The brain sends the signals, it is not the same as "mind" which is symbolized as Heart/Will.

297-Say Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel for HE BRINGS DOWN THE (REVELATION) TO THY HEART by Allah's will a confirmation of what went before and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe.

The revelation comes from the God's will to Mans will(heart), man should CHOOSE based on the God's will, that is the true submission which brings about a peaceful existence.

Lets stop here to realize that the heart is doing just that, it is part of the body, yet has submitted to the Gods will.

To tie this in with Kemetic Philosophy, they used the heart to symbolize the Will. When a person died, thee was the "weighing of the heart" against the feather, a symbol of DIVINE LAW. The heart was suppossed to be light as a feather, meaning that your DECISIONS/CHOICES were not made based on emotion, but instead followed divine law.

unknownuser

Salam AhmedBahgat,

Peace bro

I'm enjoying reading your posts... if you will please on the matter of the physical and metaphorical... why do you seperate the two?

Thanks bro, I actually put a lot of effort and researchs into it may Allah help us to find the truth

I can't accept the metaphor concept, it will totally make the Quran and Allah as a joke, also Allah well be deceiving us bad, however I'm a logical person, if anyone can convince me with compelling evidences then why not accepting it

but I can not accept something that will make 80% Quran a contradiction

I asked Elka to debate it with me slowely using the Quran only and we can shade more light on this complicated issue, but I'm 100% positive that the Quran will refute it, I just need to look at the evidences they have and I will respond back using the Quran

you said

it can't be a metaphor, and the hands/feet will talk as mentioned in the verse, in fact what will follow will confirm it, it says after that the wrong doers will ask their hands/feets why they beared witness against them?if it is a metaphor then the Quran is not making any sense

why doesn't it make sense for your tounge or hands and feet to speak? first of all does not Allah create anything as He Wills? what would not make sense about that? Allah Says Be and It Is...

Thank you bro, Allah does what He wants regardless we like it or not, aren't we a mere slaves to Him lol

second... at the most base level your body is talking to you all the time.. one just has to listen to it... again at it's most lowest level of speech.. it talks to you when it is sick.. or in pain etc... or even when your are hungry... etc... although this is most basic... it does extend from there... so why would it not make sense for your tounge which is used to make speech.. to speak for 'you' on what you've said.. or your hands which fashion your work.. to speak of what 'you' did... and your feet which take you from one place to another to speak of where 'you' went?

I remember bro that I read a great insight regarding this issue by Mohammad Metwali El Sharawi about 15 years ago, it was so great and convincing, I hope I can find it, it will take me ages to find it actually, but again what you said above makes 100% sense to me

aren't we dealing with a Mighty God lol

or such thoughts and notions of the physical being metaphrical for our own understanding and a Warning that it is all being recorded in Sijjin and Illiyin... metaphor or physical..
the physical and metaphorical aught not to be seperated.. the Highest Spiritual Truths come in the form of Stories and Parables...

I might accept the above and I agree that some issues in the Quran are metaphor, but the majotity are physical and for real, that is the clear arabic message as I understood for the last 25 years

peace be on you...

Likewise bro

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ahmed,

I might accept the above and I agree that some issues in the Quran are metaphor, but the majotity are physical and for real, that is the clear arabic message as I understood for the last 25 years

That is a scary statement brother, dont let your heart be wrapped, but let it soften to recieve wisdom. Sticks just dont turn into snakes, and seas dont split at the touch of a stick.

I can't accept the metaphor concept, it will totally make the Quran and Allah as a joke, also Allah well be deceiving us bad

Are you aware of the verse where the God says It does not shy from citing ANY SIMILITUDE? hmm

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ahmed,

Pecae bro

I might accept the above and I agree that some issues in the Quran are metaphor, but the majotity are physical and for real, that is the clear arabic message as I understood for the last 25 years

That is a scary statement brother, dont let your heart be wrapped, but let it soften to recieve wisdom. Sticks just dont turn into snakes, and seas dont split at the touch of a stick.

Bro sticks do turn into snakes, and the sea was split by the stick, I can actually provide some historical facts regarding the sea, but if the sperm and an egg turn to a sophisticated human, why not the stick turns into snake?

lol , regarding the metaphor concept, I know what I'm talking about, I mean the verses where Allah is telling us "Here is a simlititude",

this will be one of my argument in the debate, that when it is a similititude, Allah will tell us in advance that it is a simlititude

I can't accept the metaphor concept, it will totally make the Quran and Allah as a joke, also Allah well be deceiving us bad

Are you aware of the verse where the God says It does not shy from citing ANY SIMILITUDE? hmm

of course, but can you please tell me what do you think about that verse, I think, it is in sura 2 as far as I remember

Peace be with you

agentxxx

peace idolfree1,
you wrote

The brain sends the signals, it is not the same as "mind" which is symbolized as Heart/Will.

what good be mind with out a brain? in olden days they believed in the heart theory because they knew nothing about brain or mind. they associated all the qualities of brain and mind with heart, even today when we know heart is just a pump and has nothing to do with our emotions or intellect we still are quoting heart instead of brain, just like we still use horse powers to define the strength of our machines. old habits die hard )
please tell me why does God keeps on using symbolics verses and mushtabihats verses instead of clear verses?
take care.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ahmed,

Bro sticks do turn into snakes, and the sea was split by the stick

You were a WITNESS or are you bearing false witness? (hint guessing is no substitute for the truth)

I can actually provide some historical facts regarding the sea

Please do so, in fact, duplicate it based on those facts. If this info is proven, then why did not someone come to the aid of the Tsunami victims and the people of New Orleans in U.S.? Why didnt someone with those facts bring thier magic stick and hold back the water?

but if the sperm and an egg turn to a sophisticated human, why not the stick turns into snake?

Here's a hint, we can WITNESS the sperm and egg everyday, but when have yuo or ANYONE YOU HAVE EVER KNOWN seen a stick turn into a snake?

regarding the metaphor concept, I know what I'm talking about, I mean the verses where Allah is telling us "Here is a simlititude",

this will be one of my argument in the debate, that when it is a similititude, Allah will tell us in advance that it is a simlititude

Please let me know when this debate starts, I would like to partcicpate. I have been challenged with that position many times and very ready to respond. But I will wait for the debate so as not to disrupt the current topic.

Quote
I can't accept the metaphor concept, it will totally make the Quran and Allah as a joke, also Allah well be deceiving us bad

idolfree1 wrote
Are you aware of the verse where the God says It does not shy from citing ANY SIMILITUDE?

of course, but can you please tell me what do you think about that verse, I think, it is in sura 2 as far as I remember

(226) Surely The God does not (feel) shame that (He) gives/strikes an metaphor/similitude , (of) any a mosquito (and) so what (is) above it, so but those who believed, so they know that it (is) the truth from their Lord, and but those who disbelieved, so they say "What did God want/intend with that (as) an metaphor/similitude?" He misguides with it many, and He guides with it many, and He does not misguide with it except the debauchers .

It is important to learn the difference between believing and knowing, the God intends for us to move from belief to CERTAINTY/KNOWING. The God uses similitudes so that we can relate, and study until we KNOW. The God has no "shame" in using a metaphor.

Basically, everything in life happens the same way on different levels. The ancients said "as above so below", or "on earh as it is in heaven". Just like we have the metaphors for rain giving life to a dead earth, we have revelation giving life to a spiritually dead person, and on and on.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Quote
The brain sends the signals, it is not the same as "mind" which is symbolized as Heart/Will.

what good be mind with out a brain?

Nothing , just like what good is a brain without a body, but it does not follow that the body is the same as the brain, likewise, the "mind" is not the same as the brain

in olden days they believed in the heart theory because they knew nothing about brain or mind

Not true, as I stated they had knowledge even of the two speech centers in the left brain. How do you resolve that?

they associated all the qualities of brain and mind with heart
,

Depends on who you ask, just like asking questions about Islam. With that said, are you sure? I have been giving evidence that they associate heart with the WILL, which is the consciousness(mind). A dead person has a brain, but not consciousness/mind.

even today when we know heart is just a pump and has nothing to do with our emotions or intellect we still are quoting heart instead of brain, just like we still use horse powers to define the strength of our machines. old habits die hard

Correct, which is why it is a metaphor/similitude. The heart , is part of the body, but submits to the will of God. Yuo have to think about these "objects" to see why they are used in the symbolism.

please tell me why does God keeps on using symbolics verses and mushtabihats verses instead of clear verses?

The God does not shy from the metaphor/similitude. It is metaphor that facilitates understanding. Example, you dont know what chocolate is, you never tasted it, how will I help facilitate understanding? Correct, I will have to say it tastes LIKE/SIMILAR TO such and such..

DO you see the logic in that?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ahmed,

Peace bro

Bro sticks do turn into snakes, and the sea was split by the stick

You were a WITNESS or are you bearing false witness? (hint guessing is no substitute for the truth)

Of course not, but Allah is enough of a witness for me

I'm not guessing, I'm following the clear arabic Quran as told by Allah, I believe you are the one that should be classified as guessing

I can actually provide some historical facts regarding the sea

Please do so, in fact, duplicate it based on those facts. If this info is proven,

I will when I find it, I'm looking for it, possibly many has read it already, not sure

then why did not someone come to the aid of the Tsunami victims and the people of New Orleans in U.S.? Why didnt someone with those facts bring thier magic stick and hold back the water?

because the two incident were totally different, the moses one and the narural disasters, in fact that is what Allah said in His Quran that all nations must be tried with natural disasters, do you know the verse?

but if the sperm and an egg turn to a sophisticated human, why not the stick turns into snake?

Here's a hint, we can WITNESS the sperm and egg everyday, but when have yuo or ANYONE YOU HAVE EVER KNOWN seen a stick turn into a snake?

again you are trying to find any logic to prove a flawed theory that will put Allah in the wrong, you will need a microscope to be able to see the sperm, and without it you will see nothing and you will know nothing about it, so if the humans did not have the science to see the past then you can not write the past off because you did not see it

Logically speaking the past can be seen, think about this

The light lands on an object then reflect in all directions

It travels to your eyes at the speed of light and that is when you will see that object

Now if you have a ship that travels more than the speed of light we can have a ride and speed away until we overtook the image of the incident of the splitting of the sea and then we wait for it until it hits our eyes and we will see, we might need a sort of filtering to filter the zillions of images that can be seen in serial then

got it?

In fact the image of the sun that you see, is 9 minutes earlier, Mars about 20 minutes as far as I remember and so on as you go further

regarding the metaphor concept, I know what I'm talking about, I mean the verses where Allah is telling us "Here is a similitude",

this will be one of my argument in the debate, that when it is a similitude, Allah will tell us in advance that it is a similitude

Please let me know when this debate starts, I would like to partcicpate. I have been challenged with that position many times and very ready to respond. But I will wait for the debate so as not to disrupt the current topic.

sure, I left the ball in Ilka court, if she does not start the debate you are welcome to start it with me, but we need to take it slowly please

Quote
I can't accept the metaphor concept, it will totally make the Quran and Allah as a joke, also Allah well be deceiving us bad

idolfree1 wrote
Are you aware of the verse where the God says It does not shy from citing ANY SIMILITUDE?

of course, but can you please tell me what do you think about that verse, I think, it is in sura 2 as far as I remember

(226) Surely The God does not (feel) shame that (He) gives/strikes an metaphor/similitude , (of) any a mosquito (and) so what (is) above it, so but those who believed, so they know that it (is) the truth from their Lord, and but those who disbelieved, so they say "What did God want/intend with that (as) an metaphor/similitude?" He misguides with it many, and He guides with it many, and He does not misguide with it except the debauchers .

It is important to learn the difference between believing and knowing, the God intends for us to move from belief to CERTAINTY/KNOWING. The God uses similitudes so that we can relate, and study until we KNOW. The God has no "shame" in using a metaphor.

Yes and the above verse is a similitude on its own, so Allah will always tell us that this is a similitude unless it is obvious that it is a similitude

But Allah will never deceive or confuse us, he even told us that some of the Quran verses He made deliberately UNCLEAR (Mutashabihat)

Basically, everything in life happens the same way on different levels. The ancients said "as above so below", or "on earth as it is in heaven". Just like we have the metaphors for rain giving life to a dead earth, we have revelation giving life to a spiritually dead person, and on and on.

I?m sorry mate the rain giving life to earth is not a similitude, it is a hard core fact, if we investigate what that means thoroughly

I want to show you an example that people may do anything with the verses of the Quran, while the following have merit, I still can?t believe it is for an average person and the Quran was designed for the average person, the following is the work of an Egyptian profession called Hasab Elnabi, and I would rather keep to myself what is my belief in it as it will not go beyond speculations

?He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.?

(5)

-> it is obvious from the verse that Allah regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth? He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth;?, also our affairs ascend to him ? then shall it ascend to Him?, the time for these affairs to ascend to Allah as is described as a day that measures a thousand years of what we count ? in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.?

-> these affairs are in constant descending and ascending, as stated by ?Abu Haian? as well, Al Alousi said the continuity of regulating the affairs from heaven to earth and vice versa is clear from the two present sense verbs ?regulates? and ?ascend? ? ?, and ? ?.

-> Also Al Razi said when Allah says ? in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.? ? ?, is a sign of the continuity of the regulation and ascending of affairs not limited to a one day, rather the one day of a unit of measurement, this is also clear when Allah said ? the measure of? ? ? , the use of the past sense ? ?, is also a sign of continuity of the affairs regulation and ascending
-> Confirming the previous point if using the past sense of the verb ?be? ? ? in Arabic is a common practise in the Arabic language to give an action a sense of continuity, we will need to look at anther verse from the Quran quickly

? But to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth And He it is that Encompasseth all things.?

(126)

-> clear as light that the verse says that Allah encompasses all things, while the Arabic verse is using the word ? ? the past sense of ?Be? to stress the continuity of the action of compassing all things ? ? and translates to ? He it is that Encompasseth all things? as explained in the Fateh Al Bary

-> back to the original verse about regulating the affairs, the use of ? the measure of? ? ?, in the word ? the measure of? ? ? means clearly a measure, now the ? ?, the last letter in the word ??, is related to the regulation/ascending of the affairs, NOT and this an important NOT to a day as Mugahid and Abu Haian stated, they added that it can not be comprehendible that the regulation/ascending of the affairs will only take one day rather a continuos action, and the Arabic word ? ? means ?in? before the Arabic word ? ? means ?a day?, indicate that the limited day was only used as a container for the unlimited action of the regulation/ascending of the affairs, like we say the sea water is in a cup, and sure this means that some of the sea water is in the cup not the whole sea water

-> Some scholars thought that the verse 325 is indicating the depth of the universe, but this understanding is wrong because they can not prove their claim yet, and also this understanding will conflict with another verse in the Quran that indicates the spreading universe, let?s have a look at it this verse

?And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.?

(47)

-> Also the scholars who suggested that the day mentioned in the verse is a day length of the judgement day, however this understanding is flawed because the verse is clear that it is an earth day of what we count ? in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.? ? ?

-> The two words ?day? and ?year? mentioned in the verse ? in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.?, have been confirmed by the following scholars Ibn Abbas, Al Aloosi, Al Zamkhari, Ibn Kathir, Al Tabari, and Abu Haian, that it is an earth day and an earth year

-> If we look again at what Allah said ??then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.?, the ?what we count? as Al Zamkhari and Abu Haian confirmed that it means what humans count as years, the Quarn came clear that the 12 months of the year are based on the lunar year, and the lunar month is based on the moon always changing crescent , let?s look at the verse

?He it is Who appointed the sun a splendour and the moon a light, and measured for it (The Moon) stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge.?

(5)

-> based on the above verse (105), the following ? in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.? ? ?, can produce a mathematical equation, based on we can calculate the distance that the moon can run in a 1000 lunar year, why we have to use the moon?, because we can use a human, or a horse for example, we need a sign that can be viewed by every one on earth and also moves in consistent and known path, and nothing will fit but the moon that is suppose to be used to calculate the years from the first place
-> we also find that Allah used the Arabic word ? ? to describe the ascending or affairs back to Him in a day measured as a thousand year of what we count, the Arabic word ? ? means ascending but NOT in a straight line, it is actually used as a common word in Arabic to describe a person who have a problem with one leg and can not walk straight, this actually describe exactly the General Theory of Relativity because the theory says that light may bends affected by gravity as it travels between the heavenly objects

-> based on the above we can come up with an equation to calculate the speed of light as follow

The distance that is travelled by Gods regulation and affairs in one earth day = the distance the moon will travel in its orbit in a 1000 year

And because the moon rotates once around earth in a lunar month, then the distance travelled by the moon in 1000 lunar years will be 12000 moon orbits around earth

The above equation can be as follow

The max speed in the heaven and earth x The time of an earth day = 12000 x The length of the moon orbit

The above equation can be as follow

The max speed in the heaven and earth = (12000 x The length of the moon orbit) / The time of an earth day

And again the equation will be

The max speed in the heaven and earth = (12000 x The moon average speed x Lunar month) / The time of an earth day

-> when it comes to calculating the moon day or even any day on any planet including earth, it is a known fact that all scientists calculate it based on the Sidereal System i.e. based on very far stars and not on the sun , the calculation based on the sun is called ?The Synodic System?, the advantage of the Sidereal System that it get rid of the effect of the earth rotation around the sun

-> for the earth for example the day length according to the Synodic System is 24 hours = 86400 Seconds, while under the Sidereal System and by using atomic clocks, the earth day is 23564.0906 = 86164.0905 Seconds

-> for the moon the Synodic month is on average = 29.53059 day, however from the distant stars as a datum and according to the Sidereal System and measured by atomic clocks= 27.321661 day = 65571986 Hours

Please refer to Macmillan Dictionary of Astronomy. The Macmillan Press (1985), for the above mentioned numbers regarding the earth day and moon month under the Sidereal System

-> we can calculate the average speed of the moon as follow

The moon average speed = (2 x PI x Average distance between the earth and moon) / The moon month under the Sidereal System

The moon average speed = ( 2 x 3.1416 x 384264 ) / 65571986 = 3682.07 km/h , and this is the official moon average speed recognised by Nasa

Looking at the next sketch

http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/speed.jpg

The angle X is the angle that the earth moves around the sun in one Sidereal lunar month , i.e in a time = 27.321661 days

to calculate the angle X, we know the earth rotates 360 degrees around the sun in 365.25636 day, this will lead to

angle X = 27.321661 x 369 / 365,25636 = 26.92848 degrees

and because the average speed of the moon recognised by Nasa and = 3682.07 km/h is calculated while on rotating earth around the sun, this average speed is actual more than the real and true average speed of the moon while the moon is rotating on a stationary earth, but because the earth changes direction the average moon speed changes accordingly in direction and the moon will move to point (2) after completing a one Sidereal lunar month, so to need to calculate the moon true and average speed, the angle X must be taken into account, this will lead to

The moon average speed around a stationary earth (S1) = The moon average speed around a rotating earth (S2) x Cosine X

The moon average speed around a stationary earth (S1) = 3682.07 x Cosine 26.92848

The moon average speed around a stationary earth (S1) = 3682.07 x 0.89157

The moon average speed around a stationary earth (S1) = 3282.82315 km/h, which is the moon average speed after we removed the earth rotation around the sun effect

Now we can substitute all the variables in our equation with the calculated figures as follow

The max speed in the heaven and earth = (12000 x The moon average speed x Lunar month) / The time of an earth day using the Sidereal System

The max speed in the heaven and earth = (12000 x 3282.82315 x 65571986) / 86164.0905

The max speed in the heaven and earth = 299792.5 km/h = the exact speed of light as we know it today which is = 299792.458 km/h

?And say "Praise be to Allah, Who will soon show you His Signs, so that ye shall know them"; and thy Lord is not unmindful of all that ye do.?

(93)

Salam brother and thanks for reading

agentxxx

peace idolfree1,

you wrote

Not true, as I stated they had knowledge even of the two speech centers in the left brain. How do you resolve that?

by they you mean the egyptians or does this includes arabs and others of that time?

I have been giving evidence that they associate heart with the WILL, which is the consciousness(mind). A dead person has a brain, but not consciousness/mind.

I have to compare you evidence with what the scholars of the past say on this topic, and non of them have mentioned what you say, it is not surprising because we live in 2005 and we know, what they could not have even imagined. still the first reaction when anyone collapses is to check his/her heart beat or pulse,because no gadget is required to check that and according to what i know, it takes hours for the brain to die even when the person is clinically dead so i am not sure about the consciousness or the subconciousness state of mind during that particular time.

The God does not shy from the metaphor/similitude. It is metaphor that facilitates understanding.

metaphor facilitates not in the understanding but in the interpretation of the verses according to ones desires, it helps to update them according to the scientific discoveries and common knowledge of a given period.

Example,you dont know what chocolate is, you never tasted it, how will I help facilitate understanding? Correct, I will have to say it tastes LIKE/SIMILAR TO such and such..

you are right but what if you had said chocolate looks like an orange and it tast like an apple? i would believe you until i get to see and taste a chocolate, and what then? will i have a right to doubt you or not? I would be justified in thinking that you yourself are not familiar with what chocolate is?
more over when i tell you about my doubts and give you a chocolate so you may see it and eat it and then tell me how it resembles an orange and taste like an apple you say, it was a symbolic defination, you see agent when an orange becomes rotten its skin loses its colour and became brownish and it is this brownish skin i was reffering to, not the whole orange and the apple indeed taste like a chocolate to me???
the proof of the pudding is in its eating.
take care.

agentxxx

peace ahmed,

?And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.?

either this one translation is wrong or other dozens of translations of this verse are wrong because they dont say anything about the expanding universe.check it out

51 48. And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.

5148-and we built the heavens with Our own hands. We are the lord of immense power.

5147 And the heaven-with our hands have we built it up, and given it expanse;

With power and skill did We construct the Firmament for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
With the power and skill did We construct the Firmament for
it is We Who create the vastness of Space

bye.

unknownuser

peace ahmed,

Peace bro

?And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.?

either this one translation is wrong or other dozens of translations of this verse are wrong because they dont say anything about the expanding universe.check it out

The above translation is fine by Yusuf Ali, the only tricky part in it that the Yad was used Metaphor and it means power or might

51 48. And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.

The first part is right literally, I would say the second part is not right because the word "Mosioon" can not apply to say we have more power, but it will make sense that "Mosioon" refers to the creation of the heaven and earth not the power of Allah, because Allah has unlimited power

5148-and we built the heavens with Our own hands. We are the lord of immense power.

same as the last verse

5147 And the heaven-with our hands have we built it up, and given it expanse;

The above is ok

With power and skill did We construct the Firmament for it is We Who create the vastness of space.

sort of ok, but Yusuf Ali does some silly mistakes

And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

well, a bit out of touch with the arabic words

With the power and skill did We construct the Firmament for
it is We Who create the vastness of Space

sort of ok, but the spreading in the arbic verse meant to be a future or an ongoing event, "La Mo Si Oon"

bye.

cheers

agentxxx

peace ahmed,
you wrote

Quote
?And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.?

The above translation is fine by Yusuf Ali, the only tricky part in it that the Yad was used Metaphor and it means power or might

5147-With the power and skill did We construct the Firmament for it is We Who create the vastness of Space.
brother i am confused?? ? is the yusaf ali you mentioned different from the yusuf ali i have quoted? and why during the last 100 years or so no scholar or academy translated the second half of 5147 as steadily expanding ? has the arabic or its meaning changed during these time? or scientific discoveries are essential to show us how they should be interpreted?
Quran is a book of ethics and not science.
take care.

unknownuser

peace ahmed,

Hello bro

you wrote

Quote
?And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.?

The above translation is fine by Yusuf Ali, the only tricky part in it that the Yad was used Metaphor and it means power or might

5147-With the power and skill did We construct the Firmament for it is We Who create the vastness of Space.

sorry bro I thought the first one you used is Yusuf Ali, I use the one online via an amercian univercity, I can post a link if you wish

brother i am confused?? ? is the yusaf ali you mentioned different from the yusuf ali i have quoted?

possibly there are different versions based on later understandings, I don't know, I only read the Quran in arabic and resort to the English ones when I respond to non Arabic speakers

and why during the last 100 years or so no scholar or academy translated the second half of 5147 as steadily expanding ? has the arabic or its meaning changed during these time? or scientific discoveries are essential to show us how they should be interpreted?
Quran is a book of ethics and not science.
take care.

firstly yes the Quran is a book of guidance, but the point is, it meant to a miracle as well, miracle in how the Arabic words were composed into sentences, as well historical data that can virtually considered a miracle because the data was impossible to be known 1400 years ago, what also may be considered virtually a miracle is the scientific context of some verses as new science is discovered and become well known

the problem here, as me and you agree that this is not a scientific book, why those things exist then?, well someone like me who is a native Arabic speaker does not need those scientific/historical records mentioned in the Quran to prove its divinity, I can see its divinity easily in the Arabic language used, however someone like you who does not know Arabic may never see this language miracle, even if you learnt the basics of Arabic, hence I believe the other virtual miracles is for someone like you to increase your confidence that this book is from your God, let me give you an example from the Quran

when pharaoh brought the magicians to beat Moses with magic, "Pharaoh knew nothing about magic" while the magician knew every thing about it and were experienced magicians, but when they saw what Moses did, they realized that this is not magic and they submitted to Allah,

and that is what I'm talking about, you have to know the subject really well to be able to sense the miracle

let's look at Pharaoh who knew nothing about magic, the Quran told us that he accused Moses of being their master magician who taught them the secrets of magic, obviously he was ignorant

while the Quran is not a scientific book, it included a few ones that will be accurate if looked at with a scientific context in hand

the message can not be direct because it may compromise the main message as the people may think that the messenger is crazy, imagine Mohammad came with the Quran 1425 years ago and it was written in it directly that the earth is round, while their understanding that earth is flat, sure they will accuse Mohammad of being mad, what do you think?

so as time goes by and surely the Quran is preserved, new hidden messages may be discovered to serve a purpose planned by Allah, possibly one fact may make a few believe when they know it

Peace bro

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ahmed and Agentxxx,

Ahmed, I am not sure what the calculations were given to show, please elaborate what you were expounding upon.

also, you misunderstood what I said about rain giving life to an earth that is dead, yes, it does happen, and so it is used as a SIMILITUDE to explain the awakening of man's will.

Agentxxx

IF1
Not true, as I stated they had knowledge even of the two speech centers in the left brain. How do you resolve that?

Agent
by they you mean the egyptians or does this includes arabs and others of that time?

I was speaking of the Kamau (ancient Egyptians), I dont think there is any written record of Arabs showing thier knowledge of this, so I cant speak on that, I can only speak where evidence provides some support.

IF1
I have been giving evidence that they associate heart with the WILL, which is the consciousness(mind). A dead person has a brain, but not consciousness/mind.

Agent
I have to compare you evidence with what the scholars of the past say on this topic, and non of them have mentioned what you say, it is not surprising because we live in 2005 and we know, what they could not have even imagined.

Imagine for a second that a catastrophy happened and our greatest thinkers, learning institutions and scientists were wiped out. We would have to start the process all over again. There would not be the knowledge of certain things like microwaves, etc. We would not know what a cell phone was for a long time. Anyway, this is what happenned to the ancient civilization where everyone came to study and learn. The place mentioned in many holy books and stories. It was destroyed and its libraries and universities went with it.

still the first reaction when anyone collapses is to check his/her heart beat or pulse,because no gadget is required to check that

I think the first reaction is to check the breath, to see if that person has ex-SPIRed (spirit left). The heart would probably be next, but how does this relate to the discussion?

and according to what i know, it takes hours for the brain to die even when the person is clinically dead so i am not sure about the consciousness or the subconciousness state of mind during that particular time.

But you know that the brain eventually dies, the energy/spirit is taken from the physical level, of which the brain is part, and that returns to the earth where it came from after the energy/spirit was inSPIRed into it.

Quote
The God does not shy from the metaphor/similitude. It is metaphor that facilitates understanding.

metaphor facilitates not in the understanding but in the interpretation of the verses according to ones desires, it helps to update them according to the scientific discoveries and common knowledge of a given period.

If one approaches the metaphor with thier own desires, then it will misguide them if what they desire is not in line wth Divine Law. One should approach the metaphor seeking the BEHAVIORAL GUIDANCE which can be proven/verified. The way to mankind BEHAVES does not change with scientific discoveries, man had been behaving the same way forever, like an animal until he/she grows spiritually. And this is what we are being given, a SCIENCE of BEHAVIOR SHAPING.

IF1
Example,you dont know what chocolate is, you never tasted it, how will I help facilitate understanding? Correct, I will have to say it tastes LIKE/SIMILAR TO such and such..

Agent
you are right but what if you had said chocolate looks like an orange and it tast like an apple?

Why would I say that? Chocolate does not taste anything like an orange or apple? Lets just stick to the example.

i would believe you until i get to see and taste a chocolate, and what then?

You have taken the example off the intended path. WHat I was showing you is that in order to describe something for which you have yet to experience, you have to use SIMILITUDES. One is supposed to eventually verify the similitude anyway, so taking the example off path is not needed.

will i have a right to doubt you or not? I would be justified in thinking that you yourself are not familiar with what chocolate is?

Brother, just assume tha I gave you a valid similitude for chocolate, then you can understand my point.

more over when i tell you about my doubts and give you a chocolate so you may see it and eat it and then tell me how it resembles an orange and taste like an apple you say, it was a symbolic defination, you see agent when an orange becomes rotten its skin loses its colour and became brownish and it is this brownish skin i was reffering to, not the whole orange and the apple indeed taste like a chocolate to me???
the proof of the pudding is in its eating.

Yes, seeing is Knowing, and the similitiude gives us the framework to point us in the right direction to achieve that seeing.

All of this reminds me of a verse.

(226) Surely The God does not (feel) shame that (He) gives/strikes an metaphor/similitude , (of) any a mosquito (and) so what (is) above it, so but those who believed, so they know that it (is) the truth from their Lord, and but those who disbelieved, so they say "What did God want/intend with that (as) an metaphor/similitude?" He misguides with it many, and He guides with it many, and He does not misguide with it except the debauchers.

agentxxx

Peace ahmed,
You wrote

firstly yes the Quran is a book of guidance, but the point is, it meant to a miracle as well, miracle in how the Arabic words were composed into sentences, as well historical data that can virtually considered a miracle because the data was impossible to be known 1400 years ago, what also may be considered virtually a miracle is the scientific context of some verses as new science is discovered and become well known.

We should be thankful to all those scientists who have enabled us to understand the scientific context of these verses; they have succeeded where our scholars have failed for centuries. It took us 1400 years to understand some verses, does that mean it will take another 1400 years of scientific development to understand some other verses .

38- Sad ,
1..Sad. By the Qur'an full of Admonition (this is the Truth)
29..(Here is) a Book which We have sent down unto thee full of blessings THAT THEY MAY CONSIDER ON ITS SIGNS and that MEN OF UNDERSTANDING MAY RECEIVE ADMONITION.
87..Lo! IT IS NAUGHT ELSE THAN A ADMONITION FOR ALL PEOPLES.

If the data was impossible to be known 1400 years ago, what use their consideration on its signs could have been to them? Verse 87 speaks for itself.

39- Az-Zumar
27-We have put forth for men in this Qur'an every kind of Parable in order that they may receive admonition.
28-(It is) a Qur'an in Arabic without any crookedness (therein) in order that they may guard against Evil.

the problem here, as me and you agree that this is not a scientific book, why those things exist then?,

My friend, please explain what you mean by those things?

well someone like me who is a native Arabic speaker does not need those scientific/historical records mentioned in the Quran to prove its divinity, I can see its divinity easily in the Arabic language used, however someone like you who does not know Arabic may never see this language miracle, even if you learnt the basics of Arabic, hence I believe the other virtual miracles is for someone like you to increase your confidence that this book is from your God, let me give you an example from the Quran

The book is supposed to be for all mankind, but because it is in Arabic, the miracles it contains are only visible, to native Arabic speaker?
The miracles of man?s creations or inventions, can be seen and experienced by every everyone regardless of language, intellect, colour, creed etc. for example television, cell phones, computers, cars, air conditioners,satellites etc

when pharaoh brought the magicians to beat Moses with magic, "Pharaoh knew nothing about magic" while the magician knew every thing about it and were experienced magicians, but when they saw what Moses did, they realized that this is not magic and they submitted to Allah,

had pharaoh know the reality of magic he would have never relied on the magicians, pharaoh?s belief in the magician seemed to be based on assumptions, and would have been utterly disgusted by their performance in the end. My beliefs were also based on assumptions and many times I have been utterly disappointed in the end now I try my best first to understand the reality and then to believe in it .
Please tell me are these verses symbolic or factual?
take care

agentxxx

peace ID1,

you wrote

Imagine for a second that a catastrophy happened and our greatest thinkers, learning institutions and scientists were wiped out. We would have to start the process all over again. There would not be the knowledge of certain things like microwaves, etc. We would not know what a cell phone was for a long time. Anyway, this is what happenned to the ancient civilization where everyone came to study and learn. The place mentioned in many holy books and stories. It was destroyed and its libraries and universities went with it.

Even if all great thinkers, learning institutions and scientists were wiped out. Still a lot of thinks will be left as archeological evidence to tell the people of the future about our capabilities and about our level of intelligence.

I think the first reaction is to check the breath, to see if that person has ex-SPIRed (spirit left). The heart would probably be next, but how does this relate to the discussion?

I forgot about the breath wink , I am trying to give an example of why I believe ancient people didn?t knew or knew very little about brain because it is not possible to detect it without the right sort of technology.

Brother you wrote

But you know that the brain eventually dies, the energy/spirit is taken from the physical level, of which the brain is part, and that returns to the earth where it came from after the energy/spirit was inSPIRed into it.

But in my other thread you wrote

But we are created upon the God's design, according to the teachings claimed to be from the prophets. We have the God's energy(ruh) blown into us. This "ruh" is translated as Spirit, and it is this SPIRit which gives us our first breath "inSPIRation" and our last exhale "exPIRed". In this reading(quran), the root for "ruh" also is root for "breath/wind".

Please explain as I am confused.

IF1

Example,you dont know what chocolate is, you never tasted it, how will I help facilitate understanding? Correct, I will have to say it tastes LIKE/SIMILAR TO such and such..

Agent
you are right but what if you had said chocolate looks like an orange and it tast like an apple

Why would I say that? Chocolate does not taste anything like an orange or apple? Lets just stick to the example.

It is just an example to explain that if these similitudes are proven wrong you entire belief is upset.

ID1 wrote

All of this reminds me of a verse.

(226) Surely The God does not (feel) shame that (He) gives/strikes an metaphor/similitude , (of) any a mosquito (and) so what (is) above it, so but those who believed, so they know that it (is) the truth from their Lord, and but those who disbelieved, so they say "What did God want/intend with that (as) an metaphor/similitude?" He misguides with it many, and He guides with it many, and He does not misguide with it except the debauchers.

He guides and he misguides? He wants us to reflect, to use our sense, but he doesn?t like when we use it to analyze his similitude?
take care.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ahmed and Agentxxx,

Ahmed, I am not sure what the calculations were given to show, please elaborate what you were expounding upon.

also, you misunderstood what I said about rain giving life to an earth that is dead, yes, it does happen, and so it is used as a SIMILITUDE to explain the awakening of man's will.

peace bro

it was done by an egyptian professor, he calimed that speed of light can be claculated from the verse i mentioned

I believe a siniltitude is something that does not happen or never happened, like the two siniltitude allah told us about the confused believers in 28-20

for agentxxx, i copied you comment and will respond to it later today

peace bro

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Agentxxx,

Even if all great thinkers, learning institutions and scientists were wiped out. Still a lot of thinks will be left as archeological evidence to tell the people of the future about our capabilities and about our level of intelligence.

Agreed, like the intelligence needed to create the Great Pyramid which still stands today. D I think that they developed the ability of intuition to a great extent, but that is just a guess at this time.

Quote
I think the first reaction is to check the breath, to see if that person has ex-SPIRed (spirit left). The heart would probably be next, but how does this relate to the discussion?

I forgot about the breath

D

I am trying to give an example of why I believe ancient people didn?t knew or knew very little about brain because it is not possible to detect it without the right sort of technology.

Yes, I agree it is difficult to imagine how it was done, but thier philosophy fits too perfectly to deny it.

Brother you wrote
Quote
But you know that the brain eventually dies, the energy/spirit is taken from the physical level, of which the brain is part, and that returns to the earth where it came from after the energy/spirit was inSPIRed into it.

But in my other thread you wrote

But we are created upon the God's design, according to the teachings claimed to be from the prophets. We have the God's energy(ruh) blown into us. This "ruh" is translated as Spirit, and it is this SPIRit which gives us our first breath "inSPIRation" and our last exhale "exPIRed". In this reading(quran), the root for "ruh" also is root for "breath/wind".

Please explain as I am confused.

The first quote I was stating that the energy/spirit is taken from the body, brain included, and the brain along with the body is returned to earth, not the energy. Sorry for not stating it clearly.

IF1
Quote
Example,you dont know what chocolate is, you never tasted it, how will I help facilitate understanding? Correct, I will have to say it tastes LIKE/SIMILAR TO such and such..

Agent
you are right but what if you had said chocolate looks like an orange and it tast like an apple

Why would I say that? Chocolate does not taste anything like an orange or apple? Lets just stick to the example.

It is just an example to explain that if these similitudes are proven wrong you entire belief is upset.

Agreed, so that is why we have to continue to relate our positions on the similitudes to real life, verifyable experiences, because as shown in the verse about the God not shying away from similitudes, it is to take us from believing to knowing.

ID1 wrote
Quote
All of this reminds me of a verse.

(226) Surely The God does not (feel) shame that (He) gives/strikes an metaphor/similitude , (of) any a mosquito (and) so what (is) above it, so but those who believed, so they know that it (is) the truth from their Lord, and but those who disbelieved, so they say "What did God want/intend with that (as) an metaphor/similitude?" He misguides with it many, and He guides with it many, and He does not misguide with it except the debauchers.

He guides and he misguides? He wants us to reflect, to use our sense, but he doesn?t like when we use it to analyze his similitude?
take care.

You lost me on this last portion. We should not analyze them?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ahmed,

it was done by an egyptian professor, he calimed that speed of light can be claculated from the verse i mentioned

I believe a siniltitude is something that does not happen or never happened, like the two siniltitude allah told us about the confused believers in 28-20

I apologize but I am still lost. Lets move to a more popular similitude to help with the process.

Lets deal with the stick turning into a snake, how do you understand that story?

agentxxx

peace ID1,
you wrote

Agreed, like the intelligence needed to create the Great Pyramid which still stands today. I think that they developed the ability of intuition to a great extent, but that is just a guess at this time.

Agreed )

Agreed, so that is why we have to continue to relate our positions on the similitudes to real life, verifyable experiences, because as shown in the verse about the God not shying away from similitudes, it is to take us from believing to knowing.

for me some times its from believing to doubting ?

You lost me on this last portion. We should not analyze them?

brother,tell me why we should not analyze it?
take care.