The process of creation [heavens and earth]?

agentxxx

peace Ahmed,
you wrote

first of all there is a huge misunderstanding here

the clear as light Arabic word ?? does not actually mean ?makes things clear?, this is misleading indeed, it means ?obvious? and this means it is obvious that the Quran is from our God

people just go far into the distances translating the clear Arabic words the way they wish

Brother since I am not familiar with Arabic I have to depend on translations. The top scholars only do the Urdu translations, and they have to get approval from the Quran Academies, the Religious parties as well as the Ministry of Religious affairs in Pakistan. They cannot get it printed without going through this process. The translation by Moulana Moudodi is not only approved by the government of Pakistan, but also by the Saudi government. During hajj copies of his Urdu translation are distributed free amongst the Pakistani pilgrimages by the Saudi authorities.
The other scholars credited with authentic translations in Urdu are Shah Abdul Qadir Mohadis Delhvi, Moulana Abdul Qadir Azad, Moulana Fateh Mohammed Jhallendri.
Then there are academies , which have translated Quran.
The English translations of Pir Salahud-din, J.M.Rodwell, Yousaf Ali, Pickhthal, Shakir Ali, Dr Mohammed Taqi-ud-din hilali, Omar Ahmed and others on the internet are also available for references.

So brother if they all are wrong in their interpretation then what can I say? What I do is check a particular verse in all the translations available, then I go with the version where most of them agree.

regarding of the Quran makes things clear or not?, well, I see it very clear indeed, sure my native tongue is a great help, more importantly that I?m not biased and not allowing Satan to flaw my beleief by not asking silly question that will never benefit my belief rather trying to look smartarse,

umm Smartarse lol brother I respect your belief but I am not you, I am me, and I do not now believe in blind faith. If we can analyze other beliefs, religions and books, why can?t we analyze our own beliefs, religion and book? If thinking rational is allowing Satan to flaw our beliefs, then how can we know the truth?

Remember very well bro that the Quran also stated that, this book will guide and misguide humanity so we have to see both types happening in front of our eyes

If there was any other option between guidance and misguidance, that too would have been included in Quran, so that what ever happens a reference from Quran could be given. That is what makes me skeptical about this book.

Bro again there is a mistranslation here the translation should be as follow

?We have made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, then is there any that wants to remember?

and the above is the exact translation to the clear Arabic words below

(17)

I can?t see the word understand anywhere in the Arabic verse, not to say the Quran is hard to understand, but I would say, it will be hard to understand if humans followed discord by some ignorant who translate the clear Arabic words in silly and sometimes funny ways, what can I say, well done Satan

Here are these three ignorant who translated the said verse

And We have indeed made the Qur'?n easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?
And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and
remember then is there any that will receive admonition?

5417-And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?

take care.

unknownuser

peace Ahmed,
you wrote

first of all there is a huge misunderstanding here

the clear as light Arabic word ?? does not actually mean ?makes things clear?, this is misleading indeed, it means ?obvious? and this means it is obvious that the Quran is from our God

people just go far into the distances translating the clear Arabic words the way they wish

Brother since I am not familiar with Arabic I have to depend on translations.

Peace bro

I understand man, this is a big problem, it is also a problem for non native Arabic speakers who learnt just how to speak Arabic

There are zillions of translations man, I have seen many horrific ones and sure were done by the enemy of Islam where the mistakes are deliberate to cause discord, also I have also seen undeliberate mistakes by muslims who translated the Quran, all these translations by Muslims have plenty of mistakes, this fact must concludes that the Quran is very hard to translate indeed, so the best option is to always consult a sincere and fluent Arabic speaker regarding your concerns please ?If you can? and don?t take the English or the urdu translation for granted until you confirm it using your own mind and with the help of a fluent Arabic speaker

And I will be happy to always help as much as I can regarding the clear Arabic verses if you have any question

The top scholars only do the Urdu translations, and they have to get approval from the Quran Academies, the Religious parties as well as the Ministry of Religious affairs in Pakistan. They cannot get it printed without going through this process. The translation by Moulana Moudodi is not only approved by the government of Pakistan, but also by the Saudi government. During hajj copies of his Urdu translation are distributed free amongst the Pakistani pilgrimages by the Saudi authorities.

mate all these governments you mentioned are corrupt, confused and can not be trusted, in fact I have never seen in my 40 years of life a decent/honest Islamic government

no wonder all Islamic countries are going down,

Saudi Arabia government for example, approves two different Qurans, what crap is that bro? and sure we know that a lot of terrorists come from the Pakistan and surrounding countries, so I say most Muslims are bloody confused, so I expect when it comes to translation they will also be confused, believe me Satan is very clever

Didn?t he manage to flaw all the Christians?

Didn?t he manage to flaw all the Jews?

Didn?t he manage to flaw all the Hindus?

And the atheists, the pagans, and the devil worshippers

Why can't he flaw the msulims then?

Do you think the Muslims are different humans to the rest of all humans?

Let me raise this question please

Who do you think is Satan's number one enemy? Is it the Muslims?

I reckon they are, or what do you think?

Well, if you agree, then expect that the majority of Muslims will be confused.

make sense bro?

The other scholars credited with authentic translations in Urdu are Shah Abdul Qadir Mohadis Delhvi, Moulana Abdul Qadir Azad, Moulana Fateh Mohammed Jhallendri.
Then there are academies , which have translated Quran.
The English translations of Pir Salahud-din, J.M.Rodwell, Yousaf Ali, Pickhthal, Shakir Ali, Dr Mohammed Taqi-ud-din hilali, Omar Ahmed and others on the internet are also available for references.

Bro even the majority of the best of the Arabic scholars like Ibn kathir, interpreted many things wrong,

It is all about logic and common sense, if it makes sense then we take if it does not then we should not take it

If we can?t find a definite answer then we have to drop the subject to avoid flawing our belief

The basics of the belief is clear as light from the Quran, it is us who are going to make it hard on ourselves and satan and his progny will surely exploit that

Our sincerity is a must and our ego must be dropped

So brother if they all are wrong in their interpretation then what can I say? What I do is check a particular verse in all the translations available, then I go with the version where most of them agree.

you have to know bro that many translators looked at the previous translations by others and surely it will influence their outcome especially if they are not native Arabic speakers

what you suggested is not a bad idea to follow the majority as long as you feel comfortable with the understanding, however the best and safest option id to consult a native Arabic speaker that you know well and trust, and that person must be Muslim and surely know the Arabic Quran well. Then you make up you decision regarding your concerns

regarding of the Quran makes things clear or not?, well, I see it very clear indeed, sure my native tongue is a great help, more importantly that I?m not biased and not allowing Satan to flaw my beleief by not asking silly question that will never benefit my belief rather trying to look smartarse,

umm Smartarse lol brother I respect your belief but I am not you, I am me, and I do not now believe in blind faith.

bro, I?m sorry for the misunderstanding, I didn?t mean you as smartarse, I meant myself, I used to ask too many questions bro and took me no where, there are genuine questions and have merit/cause while there is also very silly questions or at least have no merit/cause and will outcome nothing but conjecture and cause fitnah, and this was warned against in the Quran big times, I just learnt to play it safe that?s all.

Sure anyone have the right to question anything, this is our freewill that were given to us, but because we must give account we should use this freewill very careful indeed

If we can analyze other beliefs, religions and books, why can?t we analyze our own beliefs, religion and book? If thinking rational is allowing Satan to flaw our beliefs, then how can we know the truth?

true, but the point is you can ask any question and reach a conclusion in a proper time, the conclusion must be one of the following

you had an old understanding and was confirmed
you discovered a new understanding and is confirmed then you dropped your old understanding
you had no understanding and you managed to work it out and confirm a new understanding
nothing was confirmed and the issue must be dropped and left to God

but if we keep raising the same issue over and over again, over the years of our life, we will look like non confident in our belief and sure Satan can exploit this hole very easily, he is very clever brother, look how many he flawed and you can easily recognise his determination that was confirmed in the Quran

Remember very well bro that the Quran also stated that, this book will guide and misguide humanity so we have to see both types happening in front of our eyes

If there was any other option between guidance and misguidance, that too would have been included in Quran, so that what ever happens a reference from Quran could be given. That is what makes me skeptical about this book.

what will make many people sceptical about this book, is the many people who are interpreting the way they wish, this was also confirmed in the Quran, so I advice you to hold on your sceptics and give it more time, it takes a long time bro, it does not happen over night , you see if Allah has created all the magic we an see in us and around us in the vicinity of the heaven and earth just to convince us to belief in Him and in the unseen, then I tell you bro believing is surely the hardest thing in life to achieve, good luck to you man

Bro again there is a mistranslation here the translation should be as follow

?We have made the Qur'an easy for remembrance, then is there any that wants to remember?

and the above is the exact translation to the clear Arabic words below

(17)

I can?t see the word understand anywhere in the Arabic verse, not to say the Quran is hard to understand, but I would say, it will be hard to understand if humans followed discord by some ignorant who translate the clear Arabic words in silly and sometimes funny ways, what can I say, well done Satan

And We have indeed made the Qur'?n easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?
And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and
remember then is there any that will receive admonition?

5417-And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?

Here are these three ignorant who translated the said verse

take care

Sorry bro, but I have to be honest, there is no benefit for me to lie, I insist on the translation I provided and I?m 100% positive that the Arabic word understand is not within the original Arabic text ?I posted the Arabic verse for all to see? and I hope any Arabic speaker look into it and see if I?m talking non sense

Peace be with you

beatnik

As AhmedBahgat mentioned earlier in the thread, when God says "Be!" something happens. It may happen in the blink of an 'eye' for God, and yet the same event may take centuries in our eyes. Time is relative and I'm sure God is not restrained by time in our current reality.

idolfree, I've also read elswhere that the 'days' could also be translated as periods of time, is there more confirmation of this?

2Pac - Notts, I also agree with your statement that people of the past knew just as much as us in some ways. The people of the past get too much flak from us, they could not have been stupid because look how far we've come because of their ingenuity, look at the remains of their lives in our museums, they were not stupid at all. I think we've even regressed in this day and age, in some ways sadly.

agentxxx

peace Ahmed,
you wrote

I mate all these governments you mentioned are corrupt, confused and can not be trusted, in fact I have never seen in my 40 years of life a decent/honest Islamic government

no wonder all Islamic countries are going down,

Brother I agree with you regarding the corrupt government in Islamic countries.
Let me tell you briefly what happened here in Pakistan, we have a 98% Muslim population. When the former soviet union invaded Afghanistan, Pakistan was used as a front line state by the USA and its allies which included almost all the Islamic states. A call for jihad was made and jihadis from all over the world came to Pakistan. Bin laden also came to Pakistan with the help of CIA who was training all the jihadis and were financing them too. People who believed in jihad came from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Chechnya, Iran, UK, USA, central Asia etc. they had their bases inside Pakistan along with the border of Afghanistan that stretches hundreds of miles. These were the times when religious parties in Pakistan became extremely rich and powerful, they also transformed into militant groups they were also free to collect funds from the local population who were sympathetic to the plight of the Afghan people so they were very generous in their donations.

These religious parties recruited hundreds of thousands of locals, young guys 16-20 years old who were send to Afghanistan for jihad. Thousands lost their lives including the 19 yrs old son of my first cousin who was fascinated by the idea of going straight to jannat through jihad. During all this period there was no other topic for the mullah in the Friday sermons except jihad.

After the withdrawal of Soviet Union the war lords in Afghanistan starting fighting among themselves for power, after achieving their target the Americans left Afghanistan and Pakistan was left alone to deal with this problem. The militant wings of these jihadi groups became extremely powerful for any weak government to control.
When the soviets were in Afghanistan we were all Muslims, but as soon as they left we became Sunnis and Shias. A new sectarian power game started in Afghanistan supported by the Saudis and the Iranian. The Saudis and Wahabi religious parties were supporting Taliban and bin laden, the Iranians and the Shia religious parties in Pakistan were supporting northern alliance. So once again the religious parties played a vital role and then suddenly they started attacking each other?s places of worship in Pakistan, killing thousands of innocent worshippers and still there is no end in sight to this sectarian issues.
After 9/11 the Americans declared these jihadis terrorist and attacked Afghanistan.
Since general pervaiz musharraf took over the power he has been trying his best to curb these extremist groups. There have been several military interventions in the border areas near Afghanistan, to destroy their training camps and to deport or arrest thousands of foreigners who came for afghan jihad but didn?t or couldn?t go back to the countries of their origin due to some reason. There are many who are on the wanted list in the countries of their origin, so they stayed in Afghanistan or in the border areas of Pakistan.
Why I am telling you this detail? The reason is that these Arabic speaking jihadis were the ones, who were interpreting verses and influencing young people to join jihad, not only against the soviets but also against the local government as well as against different sects in Pakistan.
Since the last three decades I have seen these groups using Quran and Islam consistently and continently to achieve their own personal goals. During the soviet invasion it was jihad against the infidel soviets, now since the American intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan the jihad is against the Jews and the Christians and the verse ?believers don?t make the Jews and the Christian your friends? is quoted nigh and day by these parties.

Saudi Arabia government for example, approves two different Qurans,
what crap is that bro? and sure we know that a lot of terrorists come from the Pakistan and surrounding countries, so I say most Muslims are bloody confused, so I expect when it comes to translation they will also be confused, believe me Satan is very clever

Well, this two approved versions of Quran, are news for me. Please tell me more. now About the terrorists from Pakistan, yes indeed there are many fanatic groups here, its easy to manipulate people who are living below the poverty level and its easy to manipulate those who understand their religion only through assumptions, emotions and desires.

believe me Satan is very clever

Satan may be very clever but I don?t blame Satan for every thing wrong that happens. We are blessed with a brain to use and it is our own greed, desires and selfishness that is responsible for most of our misdeeds.

Didn?t he manage to flaw all the Christians?

Didn?t he manage to flaw all the Jews?

Didn?t he manage to flaw all the Hindus?

And the atheists, the pagans, and the devil worshippers

Why can't he flaw the msulims then?

Do you think the Muslims are different humans to the rest of all humans?

Let me raise this question please

Who do you think is Satan's number one enemy? Is it the Muslims?

I reckon they are, or what do you think?

Well, if you agree, then expect that the majority of Muslims will be confused.

make sense bro?

We are all humane beings and I judge other not by their status, colour or their beliefs but by their deeds. For me there are only two groups of people, good people and bad people. Good people follow the straight path of God regardless of what religion they practice.
About Satan I am not sure?

bro, I?m sorry for the misunderstanding, I didn?t mean you as smartarse,

don?t worry brother I just mentioned it as a joke lol

you have to know bro that many translators looked at the previous translations by others and surely it will influence their outcome especially if they are not native Arabic speakers

what you suggested is not a bad idea to follow the majority as long as you feel comfortable with the understanding, however the best and safest option id to consult a native Arabic speaker that you know well and trust, and that person must be Muslim and surely know the Arabic Quran well. Then you make up you decision regarding your concerns

indeed you are right but most of the translations are approved by native Arabic speakers?

Bro even the majority of the best of the Arabic scholars like Ibn kathir, interpreted many things wrong,
It is all about logic and common sense, if it makes sense then we take if it does not then we should not take it

Why would ibn kathir interpret many things wrong? May be at that time his interpretations seemed all logical and made sense? But now with the changing times and advance knowledge some of the interpretations don?t make sense?

If we can?t find a definite answer then we have to drop the subject to avoid flawing our belief

You are right we have to drop the subject if we cant find a definite answer but it is not easy to drop it off you mind.

Sure anyone have the right to question anything, this is our freewill that were given to us, but because we must give account we should use this freewill very careful indeed.

Agree without any buts lol

Sorry bro, but I have to be honest, there is no benefit for me to lie, I insist on the translation I provided and I?m 100% positive that the Arabic word understand is not within the original Arabic text ?I posted the Arabic verse for all to see? and I hope any Arabic speaker look into it and see if I?m talking non sense

Brother I have absolutely no doubt in what you say, what confuses me is that the people who translated Quran in other languages, also could not have benefited from any lie specially when there are so many people/departments to check them and approve their translations? But this is a reality that some of the newer translations are different then the older translations, in some recent translations some verses have been translated to make them compatible with recent scientific discoveries and that to me seems intentional.
Take care.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

I just wanted to agree with the statement made that the ancient people knew that the earth revolved around teh sun. The problem is that white supremecy has ruled and taught only what they were aware of, and I am sure that does not represent all of them as well, onlythose who were in charge.

Whatever the case, there is much evidence that the ancients of Kemet, the oldest recorded civilization, had knowledge of this. They created structures that allowed the sun to shine through openings of buildings to mark certain periods of the year, etc.

Regarding Abraham and the stars, moon, and sun...this is a story to help us understand that we must be scientific in our approach, it is not a literal story just like the rest, so we cannot use an unverified story to judge if people knew about he earth going around the sun.

agentxxx

peace idolfree1,
you wrote

I just wanted to agree with the statement made that the ancient people knew that the earth revolved around teh sun. The problem is that white supremecy has ruled and taught only what they were aware of, and I am sure that does not represent all of them as well, onlythose who were in charge.

you have the right to believe, what ever you believe inwink
we love to blame others for our own flaws, examplethe satan, mushriqs, jew and christians, and now its white supremacy lol

Whatever the case, there is much evidence that the ancients of Kemet, the oldest recorded civilization, had knowledge of this.

and who has told us about this ancient civilization? the white supremecy.

They created structures that allowed the sun to shine through openings of buildings to mark certain periods of the year, etc.

the mugals built taj mahal but still they knew nothing about the solar system. even if the kemet were familiar with this motion, it does not prove every ancient civilisation had such knowledge.

Regarding Abraham and the stars, moon, and sun...this is a story to help us understand that we must be scientific in our approach, it is not a literal story just like the rest, so we cannot use an unverified story to judge if people knew about he earth going around the sun.

story??? where does it say its a story? but what ever it is, it helps us to understand that Abraham found his way to God by the method of "trail and error" By analyzing his errors and then correcting them.
bye.

unknownuser

Salaams Br.

Agent said
54 50?And our commandment is but one (commandment), as the twinkling of an eye.

Should be
5450
And not our command is but one glance of eye.

You are from Pakistan you should know the phrase

Aik Ashara aankh ka hi kaafi tha.? what do you think?

Make sense? Br.

And ?Be and it is? ?I haven?t checked but most likely along the same lines.

But you?re other words the earth and the heavens is a big thing for people to explain ? but I think these words are mistranslated that is the reason for the discrepancy/contradiction-i would say.

God Bless.

agentxxx

salam mz357,
you wrote

54 50?And our commandment is but one (commandment), as the twinkling of an eye.

Should be
5450
And not our command is but one glance of eye.

You are from Pakistan you should know the phrase

Aik Ashara aankh ka hi kaafi tha.? what do you think?

Make sense? Br.

app nay theek kha hai janab,magar yehi to confusion hai?
agar aankh ka aik ashara kaafi hai toa phir chay din ka kya chakar hai?
phir 419 main aath din bantay hai?
and you must be knowing brother that if i ask any one here about all this,I WILL BE IN BIG TROUBLE lol

And ?Be and it is? ?I haven?t checked but most likely along the same lines.

But you?re other words the earth and the heavens is a big thing for people to explain ? but I think these words are mistranslated that is the reason for the discrepancy/contradiction-i would say.

brother there are contraditions/discrepancies through out the Quran, when you read it in your own language only then you are able to see them and that makes a person like me a bit skeptical and confused.
now we all know that no translation of Quran can be printed without going through a process of scrutiny, there are hundreds of scholar and Quran academys who approve the translation and check all the error, so it is difficult to understand why there is difference in translation or how a certain verse can be mistranslated and yet approved by all the other?
peace.

unknownuser

brother there are contraditions/discrepancies through out the Quran, when you read it in your own language only then you are able to see them and that makes a person like me a bit skeptical and confused.

Hello bro

would you like to debate the contradictions one at a time with me?

peace

agentxxx

peace Ahmed
you wrote,

would you like to debate the contradictions one at a time with me?

please see the topics "how we will be judged" and "why did God granted respite to iblis" and explain it for me as no one has tried to explain it.
thanks.

agentxxx

peace Ahmed,all
please read my original post again and explain the contradictions.
thanks.

unknownuser

peace Ahmed,all
please read my original post again and explain the contradictions.
thanks.

mate you listed 7 contradictions in the other thread and that is what I will start respond to, please don't confuse me

thanks

Tay

Peace All,

Interesting thread )

Since recently re-aligning my understanding of the essence of life, the big picture has changed and things have become less confusing. To nip any potential backlash in the bud, please understand this is my opinion only, ie, what makes sense to me, but maybe it might help someone else out...

The universe, as we know it, is an infinitely massive nothing. It's mostly space and nano-minutely, shapeless, electrically charged or non-charged, particles that we cannot possibly see, for as soon as we look, they disappear.

That being said, there is something that holds it all together - an energy that can neither be described nor understood. We are a part of that energy for reasons that remain unknown - we being the consciousness that is witness to life in all it's forms, including of course the human experience.

My understanding is that this thing we call life, ie, the universe in all it's facets, is the constant remanifestation of it's source. It is like a plasma of energy that is in a state of flux. The "Big-Bang", though thought of as the starting point, is more likely just the starting point of this particular phase of life. Who knows how many Big-Bangs took place before the presently referred model.

So when the Qur'an mentions "He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days", it is, as mentioned by Ahmed, the description of a process that we can understand in our limited realm of understanding, ie, "it took me 6 days to refinish my bathroom". The guidance is in understanding that there is one source of this life, and this source has designed this life to be a process, as a macrocosm and a microcosm. Everything is a process, from the life of the sun, to global warming, to the formation and decay of mountains, to building a house, to earning a Phd, to raising a child, to growing basil in your garden. Nothing escapes process.

Therein lies the guidance in which there lies an infintie wealth of more guidance.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Agentxxx

Quote
I just wanted to agree with the statement made that the ancient people knew that the earth revolved around teh sun. The problem is that white supremecy has ruled and taught only what they were aware of, and I am sure that does not represent all of them as well, onlythose who were in charge.

you have the right to believe, what ever you believe inwink
we love to blame others for our own flaws, examplethe satan, mushriqs, jew and christians, and now its white supremacy

What flaw are you refering to? Should I blame myself for the Pope signing off on the document to allow slavery on the basis that "black" people have no souls? Or the teachin that Christopher Columbus discovered America? Or that teh ancient Egyptians were white, when teh artifcats and DNA testing of mummies clearly shows the opposite? What is the intention of these types of LIES? Was it something I did?

Quote
Whatever the case, there is much evidence that the ancients of Kemet, the oldest recorded civilization, had knowledge of this.

and who has told us about this ancient civilization? the white supremecy.

No, most white egyptologists still potray egypt as a polytheistic group who enslaved jews to build a pyramid. The information I am relaying comes mostly from Africans like Cheik Anta Diop and Ra Un Nefer Amen 1. Let it be clear that the race doesnt matter, but when yuo see people vying to LIE about the truth, the there is something up. Especially when the replacement is to worship a dead jewish man(Jesus). That was the name of the first slave ship by the way, the Good ship Jesus.

Quote
They created structures that allowed the sun to shine through openings of buildings to mark certain periods of the year, etc.

the mugals built taj mahal but still they knew nothing about the solar system. even if the kemet were familiar with this motion, it does not prove every ancient civilisation had such knowledge.

I didnt say every ancient civilization, I am talking about Kemet.

Quote
Regarding Abraham and the stars, moon, and sun...this is a story to help us understand that we must be scientific in our approach, it is not a literal story just like the rest, so we cannot use an unverified story to judge if people knew about he earth going around the sun.

story??? where does it say its a story? but what ever it is, it helps us to understand that Abraham found his way to God by the method of "trail and error" By analyzing his errors and then correcting them.

Yes, scientifically. Has the story reached thee?

agentxxx

Peace idolfree1,
You wrote
What flaw are you refering to?

The problem is that white supremecy has ruled and taught only what theythey were aware of

Brother I was referring to this statement, why did we allow them to rule us and teach us? This is a flaw of ours not theirs.
You wrote

Should I blame myself for the Pope signing off on the document to allow slavery on the basis that "black" people have no souls? Or the teachin that Christopher Columbus discovered America? Or that teh ancient Egyptians were white, when teh artifcats and DNA testing of mummies clearly shows the opposite? What is the intention of these types of LIES? Was it something I did?

Brother I am not advocating the white race; there are good people and bad people in every race. I am aware of the atrocities they committed during the colonization, specially in the subcontinent, I am also aware of the developments that they did in the subcontinent, they were the ones who outlawed certain brutal traditions of this region, for example the tradition of SATI amongst the Hindus where the widow of the deceased was burned alive with the deceased. and May I ask who gave us the information about the DNA?

Id1 wrote

Yes, scientifically. Has the story reached thee?

Brother I am sorry I could not understand your point, kindly explain because I don?t see a word ?story? mentioned here?

2151-We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct and well were We acquainted with him.
2152-Behold! he said to his father and his people "What are these images to which ye are (so assiduously) devoted?"

674-Lo! Abraham said to his father Azar "Takest thou idols for gods? for I see thee and thy people in manifest error."
675-So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth that he might (with understanding) have certitude.
676-When the night covered him over he saw a star he said "this is my Lord." But when it set he said "I love not those that set."
677-When he saw the moon rising in splendor He said "This is my Lord." but when the moon set he said "Unless my Lord guide me I shall surely be among those who go astray."
678-When he saw the sun rising in splendor he said "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set he said "O my people! I am (now) free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.
679-"For me I have set my face firmly and truly toward Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah."
680-His people disputed with him. He said "(come) ye to dispute with me about Allah when He (Himself) hath guided me? I fear not (the beings) ye associate with Allah unless my Lord willeth (nothing can happen). My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things will ye not (yourselves) be admonished?
681-"How should I fear (the beings) ye associate with Allah when ye fear not to give partners to Allah without any warrant having been given to you? Which of (us) two parties hath more right to security? (tell me) if ye know.
682-"It is those who believe and confuse not their beliefs with wrong that are (truly) in security for they are on (right) guidance."
683- That was the reasoning about Us which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people We raise whom We will degree after degree for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.
684-We gave him Isaac and Jacob all (three) We guided and before him We guided Noah and before him We guided Noah and among his progeny David Solomon Job Joseph Moses and Aaron thus do We reward those who do good
thanks.

agentxxx

peace tay,
you wrote

My understanding is that this thing we call life, ie, the universe in all it's facets, is the constant remanifestation of it's source. It is like a plasma of energy that is in a state of flux. The "Big-Bang", though thought of as the starting point, is more likely just the starting point of this particular phase of life. Who knows how many Big-Bangs took place before the presently referred model.

So when the Qur'an mentions "He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days", it is, as mentioned by Ahmed, the description of a process that we can understand in our limited realm of understanding, ie, "it took me 6 days to refinish my bathroom". The guidance is in understanding that there is one source of this life, and this source has designed this life to be a process, as a macrocosm and a microcosm. Everything is a process, from the life of the sun, to global warming, to the formation and decay of mountains, to building a house, to earning a Phd, to raising a child, to growing basil in your garden. Nothing escapes process.

Therein lies the guidance in which there lies an infintie wealth of more guidance.

i agree with all that you say, i also agree that days can be periods and 6 days can be six periods. what i want to know is why in 419/4110/4111/4112 the total number of days add up to 8 instead of 6.
what shoul i believe was created first according to Quran,is it the heaven 7927, or earth 229.
were heaven and earth one piece 2130, or smoke 4111.
thanks.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Agentxxx,

Peace idolfree1,
You wrote
What flaw are you refering to?
Quote
The problem is that white supremecy has ruled and taught only what theythey were aware of

Brother I was referring to this statement, why did we allow them to rule us and teach us? This is a flaw of ours not theirs.

Agreed.

You wrote
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Should I blame myself for the Pope signing off on the document to allow slavery on the basis that "black" people have no souls? Or the teachin that Christopher Columbus discovered America? Or that teh ancient Egyptians were white, when teh artifcats and DNA testing of mummies clearly shows the opposite? What is the intention of these types of LIES? Was it something I did?

Brother I am not advocating the white race; there are good people and bad people in every race.

Agreed.

I am aware of the atrocities they committed during the colonization, specially in the subcontinent, I am also aware of the developments that they did in the subcontinent, they were the ones who outlawed certain brutal traditions of this region, for example the tradition of SATI amongst the Hindus where the widow of the deceased was burned alive with the deceased.

Agreed.

and May I ask who gave us the information about the DNA?

Sorry, not DNA, but melaninn dosage test. It was done by Cheikh Anta Diop.

http//www.stewartsynopsis.com/black_egyptians_are_the_original.htm

Raj-ah

Salaam

For some of Us the Quran contains No miracles, Scientific or whatever.
This thought is due to confusion we will try to clear it up as we go ahead, but let us start with Agent triple X.

But he needed six days for creation?
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117-He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was over the Waters that He might try you which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death" the Unbelievers would be sure to say "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"

or 8 days according to these verses?
Quote
419?Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters) Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
4110?He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
4111?Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient.
4112?Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and we decked the lower heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.in Might Full of knowledge.

According to verse 91011- he created the earth, placed firm hills rising above it, blessed it and measured therein its provisions and then he turned to heavens which was smoke?
What I understand is that when God created earth there was nothing else except God and smoke?

The confusion arises only if you wrongly translate summa as ?then? only then would this verse contradict the Big-bang theory and other verses of the Quran. Therefore the correct translation of the word summa is ?moreover? or ?simultaneously?. Ahmad Bhagat or any other Arabic native what do you say??? about this translation.
?It is who has created for you all things on the earth (summa)simultaneously (while) making the heaven into seven firmaments?.

This could be expalined by a Scholar's following remarks

If a builder says that he will construct a 10-storey building and surrounding compound wall in six months and after completion of his project he gives a more detailed account saying that the basement of the building was built in two months and the 10 storeys took four months and simultaneously, while the basement and the building was being constructed, he also constructed the surrounding of the building along with the compound wall which took two months. Therefore both his first and second descriptions are not contradicting but the second statement gives a more detailed account for the construction.

Agent wrote

Heaven and earth were one piece
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2130?Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and We made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

Yes they were one.
This is a Proven fact according to the "Big bang theory".
Every living thing from water is Yet another proven scientific fact.

but heaven was smoke

Quote
4111?Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said We come, obedient.

Yes it was.
The word actualy used is "Dakhan" Ahmed Bhagat may better understand it. This is another sceintific proven fact that earth was covered with gaseous material like smoke.

These were discussed in detail if you like to read my debate at www.infidelguy.com with some atheists.

Now when Quran says that 'life started from water" this is a scientific fact for us, but one who has created it is normality. Similarly who is inventor of Camera it is a simple laws working for him but for people may be like me it is a miracle "how by just one click I am saved forever in the eyes of camera".
There are numerous prophesies and Scientific facts mentioned in Quran, for some it may be Miracles but actually they are Just facts.

He first created earth?
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229?He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is Knower of all things

No He first created heaven?
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7927?Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?
7928?He raised the height thereof and ordered it;
7929?And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof.
7930?And after that He spread the earth,

432?By the Book that makes things clear

It makes things clear no doubt, but you need a rational way of thinking.
The rest was explained above.

2117?The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only Be! and it is.

This verse is telling us about the authority of Allah and not the time period at all.

unknownuser

Peace

I agree with Raj-ah the arbic words "Thumma" has two meaning "Then" and "Moreover"

the use of the word is based on the context and other words used along with "Thumma", the Quran has given us numerous examples of all possible use of the word "Thumma", this is a subject that I started writing about already and when finsihed I will add it to this thread

peace be with all

agentxxx

peace raj-ah,
brother thank you for your comments.
you wrote

The confusion arises only if you wrongly translate summa as ?then? only then would this verse contradict the Big-bang theory and other verses of the Quran. Therefore the correct translation of the word summa is ?moreover? or ?simultaneously?. Ahmad Bhagat or any other Arabic native what do you say??? about this translation.
?It is who has created for you all things on the earth (summa)simultaneously (while) making the heaven into seven firmaments?.

This could be expalined by a Scholar's following remarks

If a builder says that he will construct a 10-storey building and surrounding compound wall in six months and after completion of his project he gives a more detailed account saying that the basement of the building was built in two months and the 10 storeys took four months and simultaneously, while the basement and the building was being constructed, he also constructed the surrounding of the building along with the compound wall which took two months. Therefore both his first and second descriptions are not contradicting but the second statement gives a more detailed account for the construction.

brother i did not translate the word, it was done by the scholars who translated Quran . A person like me who is not familiar with the arabic language has to depend upon the translation rather then the arabic content. it seems to me that most of the arabic words can be translated into many different meanings and hence most of the verse of Quran can be interpreted into various different ways, according to ones own liking or understanding, and because of this flexability they can also be interpreted to make them compatable with the scientific discoveries too.
what i want to know is why would all these scholars and academies translate it wrongly? and why their translations are aproved to be authentic by the relavent authorities? from where can i get a translation which is error free?
a builder has to depend on lot of other factors, like supply of material, labour force, approval from the relevant deptt etc. but the Almighty is omnipotent or is he also dependent on other factors?
also if a builder says he constructed a 20 storey building in 60 days, but in his detailed account the total number of days adds up to 66, what would you believe to be the thruth? may be it again has to do something with the translation i dont know?
would you kindly explain what is meant by the the seven firmaments?
God bless you.