The nature of inspiration - the "voice" of the God
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Well pointed out truth, and perhaps this helps also?...
- And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is the Most High, Most Wise
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peace Oben,
Thanks for sharing.
The root of the word often translated as "say/said" is Qaf-Waw-Lam and it can mean to inspire/relate/transmit. In fact, Lane & DofQ explicitly give non-speech examples.
You can read every occurrence of the root in al-quran in PRL.
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Hello Oben and all
Mate, I would like to add my 2c to this thread, while it may seem that I just oppose you, I stress, my intention in no way near that, it is the truth bro and what a coincidence that your name is ?Truth?, this tells me that you are one who is looking for the truth.
The issue you raised is not of any importance at all to the face of faith, what I?m saying is if I?m a believer in the Quran and Allah, will it make a difference if I know that Allah talked to His prophets directly, via inspirations or via a messenger?
For a believer and logically speaking, it should not make the slightest of difference
But because you raised the issue, I will still look at it and give it merit, because your suggestion will put the clear Arabic Quran in fault, so I have to investigate what you are claiming, and in no time the Quran had the answer that will refute your claim or at least ?logically speaking? it will put the possibility that Allah spoke to Moses for real far more probable than been just an inspiration.
First of all I agree with Wakas comment that the root of the word ?Qawala? often translated as "say/said" is Qaf-Waw-Lam and it can mean to inspire/relate/transmit, however the literal and most common use is ?to speak? , however the word we have in hand in not QaWaLa rather "Ka La Ma" which is "to talk"
The Quran actually confirms this multiple meanings as shown from the verse posted by Zenge
?And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is the Most High, Most Wise?
(51)
-> Very clearly read in English and Arabic that Allah will only speak to humans through
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An inspiration (internally) and the most commonly known about all prophets
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Directly (audible) BUT only from behind a barrier
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Delivery by a Messenger (this is also known to happen via the Malaika) like Gebril/Mohammad, and also the Malaika who were sent to Lut in human shapes to punish Gomorrah and Sodom cities and surely many other incidents in the Quran
It is very logical that NO 2 above MUST be for real (an audible conversation) as long as it is behind a barrier, it can?t be an inspiration otherwise it should fall under NO 1 above
Form 4251 we must conclude that Allah can talk to humans directly BUT from behind a barrier
Now Allah told us in the Quran that an incident happened where a conversation occurred.
Now I have to ask when looking at the verses describing the incident, what the fire which Moses saw has to do with it?, why Moses was taken far away from his people before that alleged real conversation happened?, let?s look at the verse again
?When he saw a fire, he said to his family, ?Stay here. I have seen a fire. Maybe I can bring you some of it, or find some guidance at the fire.?"
-> Obviously he was taken away, why if it is an inspiration?, I?m sure if it is an inspiration, the people near him will not hear it, or what do you think?
-> It sounds to me like a plot to take Moses away, especially the fire has no significance to the story, other than to bring some for them or find guidance at it, but why Moses alone, I would say possibly a few other Jews should have gone with him to give a helping hand?
-> Let?s consider it as Allah wanted to take Moses away so no one else hears or sees what is about to happen, this makes sense because if it happens in front of many people then the purpose of the prophet is defeated and the test for those people will be obsolete, but that is a mere speculation, so let?s see what happened next and try to work it out
11-?When he came to it, he was called,?O, Moses.??
12- "I am your Lord; remove your sandals. You are in the sacred valley, Tuwaa.?
13- "I have chosen you, so listen to what is being revealed.?(11)
(12)
(13)-> The first key word we have in here is ?? pronounced as ?Noodaa? which means ?was called?, this is actually a common Arabic word, versions of it was repeated in the Quran, over 20 times, the majority of all is to call/speak to someone in an audible voice, it can be used to call God ?Doaa? but the common use is to speak loud, in fact there is a common job in Egypt called ?Moonadi Siarrat?, ?Car Caller? which is the one that stands at car parks and calls drivers loud to come and park their cars, please search for the word ?Naada? ? ? ?To call? and you will see for your self the common use for it in the Quran.
-> Consequently it seems that Moses was called a loud ?O?Moses?, then the conversation continue
The above runs in perfect harmony with 4251, because it seems Allah was talking to Moses from behind a barrier, this was evident when Moses requested to see Him, i.e. Moses was talking to Allah without seeing Him
-> Just for a change and sorry to take you out of the subject, I have to tell you a funny and strange story that might relates to verse 2012 , the verse says that Moses was told ?You are in the sacred valley, Tuwaa?
The above valley is a very common tourist destination in Sinai ? Egypt, I have been there many times, what a beautiful place, I have a brother in Egypt who works as a doctor in Sinai, one day he planned to attend the sunrise at this valley, a very common tourist activity that can not be missed if you visit Sinai ? Egypt, the tour starts at about 2 AM and they climb up a specific mountain from the many in there, the climb takes about 2-3 hours and sure it is very dark, someone will be leading the pack and the rest is just following behind in a line, some may slow down but no one wait for any, the pack just keeps going, so my brother wanted to leak all of a sudden, so he delayed himself and the tour kept going, and he chose an area in ?THE SACRED VALLEY THAT MOSES WAS REQUESTED TO REMOVE HIS SHOE? to relief himself, what an idiot, LOL
Ok what happened next has to be divine, all of a sudden while he was leaking, he was dropped on the ground and his head hit it face first and he lost one of his front teeth and sure he has seen all the stars and sparks around him, he told me it was one hell of a scary moment in his life and quickly he realised his great mistake
What you guys can say about this?
It is a great honour for anyone to be chosen to be spoken directly to by Allah, this honour was highlighted by Allah in the Quran
?We have made some of these messengers to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa son of Marium, and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends. ?
(253)
-> We can read clearly in 2254 that Allah made some of the messengers to excel others, then Allah is telling us that He spoke to some of them ?among them are they to whom Allah spoke, this is an important point because if Allah means inspiration by speaking, then we have a mistake in 2253 because Allah should have INSPIRED ALL PROPHETS, NOT SOME AMONG THEM, we can also understand from the above that Allah spoke directly to more than one prophet among them are they to whom Allah spoke, but we are only concerned about Moses for the time being
-> I don?t want to make it really hard and confusing, it seems Allah knew ?as always? that some may come and think that He didn?t talk to Moses directly from behind a barrier, so He responded to them in the most clearer of words, let?s look at the verse
4163
YUSUFALI ?We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.?PICKTHAL ?Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms;?
SHAKIR Surely We have revealed to you as We revealed to Nuh, and the prophets after him, and We revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and Isa and Ayub and Yunus and Haroun and Sulaiman and We gave to Dawood
4164
YUSUFALI ?Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;- ?PICKTHAL ?And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;?
SHAKIR ?And (We sent) messengers We have mentioned to you before and messengers we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed His Word, speaking (to him)?
(163)
(164)
-> This is magic by the Quran, it knows what people might be religiously thinking and it always respond to them, we can?t get a clearer answer than the above, but the huge note that should refute this claim is this
-> In verse 4163, Allah listed a few messengers and they all were described as been inspired by Allah including Mohammad and even Aaron "Moses brother" but Moses was explicitly mentioned in verse 4164 that Allah talked to him directly
? ?, which I can assure you it means in Arabic that ?to Moses Allah spoke direct;?Peace to all
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Peace Ahmed,
?And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is the Most High, Most Wise?
-> Very clearly read in English and Arabic that Allah will only speak to humans through
-
An inspiration (internally) and the most commonly known about all prophets
-
Directly (audible) BUT only from behind a barrier
-
Delivery by a Messenger (this is also known to happen via the Malaika) like Gebril/Mohammad, and also the Malaika who were sent to Lut in human shapes to punish Gomorrah and Sodom cities and surely many other incidents in the Quran
It is very logical that NO 2 above MUST be for real (an audible conversation) as long as it is behind a barrier, it can?t be an inspiration otherwise it should fall under NO 1 above
Form 4251 we must conclude that Allah can talk to humans directly BUT from behind a barrier
If you look at verse 4251 the beginning makes it ABSOLUTE that the God does not SPEAK to human beings. There is no "talking" involved and the verses 2068 makes it clear that there is no audible talk happening when the God 'speaks'.
Your interpretation of number 2 is the traditional understanding. What your understanding of "behind a barrier" is suggesting is that the God plays the role of a ventriloquist - ie. throwing a voice onto some inanimate object like a "burning bush". That is a Judaeo-Christian idea.
The barrier in question is quite obviously not a physical barrier, it cannot be, as the God is not manifest physically; nor is anything in the universe capable of being a physical barrier. The barrier in question is the one that divides the conscious from the unconscious mind.
The God can speak to us behind the veil of consciousness.
In chapter 20 the 'fire' is not a physical fire that Moses experiences. It is the fire that is kindled in his consciousness. The fire represents the beginning of awareness of the God. A fire that he can bring back to the people.
The sandals have a symbolic meaning; Moses removes his sandals because the journeying is not a physical one - it is not to be walked but rather experienced as enlightenment - a journey of the mind to a higher awareness/acknowledgement of the God.
Verse 171 describes this process also in relation to Moses.
Regards.
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Thanks truth and what is your response to 4164?
also being traditional does not make it wrong though
peace
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Peace,
Thanks truth and what is your response to 4164?
also being traditional does not make it wrong though
peace
4164 Warusulan qad qasasnahum AAalayka min qablu warusulan lam naqsushum AAalayka wakallama Allahu moosa takleeman
The translation is...
And the God spoke to Moses a communication.
takleeman - is an act of expressing something ie. communication.
It does not mean "directly" as is commonly mistranslated.
As we know that the 'speaking' does not involve audible speech then we must understand this to mean inspiration into conscious thought, to the unconscious mind, or through a messenger as 4251 indicates.
There is no outwardly heard voice as has been shown clearly by 2068.
Regards.
ALSO Abdul Mannan Omar's dictionary of the Quran mentions that a Kalaam can mean "Idea occurring in the mind even if it is not expressed."
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Peace
Taklima means physical speach, "Wahi means internal communication
so it has to be direct speech
also your point regarding verse 2068 has no merit because it is a different event, i thought you should know that
anyway we will leave it for the others to read and learn, but it seems you are talking the whole Quran as a metaphor thing and surely I classify this as very wrong accordsing to the clear arabic Quran
in fact you are only following conjecture, good luck to you
peace
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thanks for pointing out the KLM rather than the QWL.
PRL"]Kaf-Lam-Miim
275, 7144, 96, 4815
kalimah n.f. (pl. kalimat, and kalim) - word, command, agreement, common term.
237, 2124, 339, 345, 364, 446, 4171, 513, 541, 634, 6115, 7137, 7158, 87, 940, 940, 974, 1019, 1033, 1064, 1082, 1096, 11110, 11119, 1424, 1426, 185, 1827, 18109, 18109, 20129, 23100, 3127, 3510, 37171, 3919, 3971, 406, 4145, 4214, 4221, 4224, 4328, 4826, 6612
kallama vb. (II) - to speak to ro with, act of speaking, directly.
perf. act. - 2252, 4164, 6111, 7143, 1254
impf. act. - 2118, 2174, 341, 346, 377, 5110, 7148, 1910, 1926, 1929, 23108, 2782, 3665, 4251
perf. pas. - 1331
n. vb. 4164
takallama vb. (V) - to speak
impf. act. - 11105, 2416, 3035, 7838
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Peace,
Taklima means physical speach, "Wahi means internal communication
so it has to be direct speech
Ahmed the act of speech is a human thing - the God does not 'speak' as you imagine and I have demonstrated clear proof for it.
To understand maybe another example will convince you. In 2187 the God 'writes' or 'kataba' as He does in other places such as 5822 "kataba fee quloobihimu" or 'writes on their hearts'.
The writing here is understood to be not a physical act of writing with hands and a pen.
So it is with 'kalama' when it applies to the God.
also your point regarding verse 2068 has no merit because it is a different event, i thought you should know that
The event in 2068 is also an instance of 'speech' to Moses which is contained in the same chapter and story.
2077 should be enough for you to understand that this 'speech' is a form of inspiration. Moses is inspired to do certain things. The inspiration is communicated to him similar to how it is in 2068.
anyway we will leave it for the others to read and learn, but it seems you are talking the whole Quran as a metaphor thing and surely I classify this as very wrong accordsing to the clear arabic Quran
in fact you are only following conjecture, good luck to you
The reading does not guide us as a 'history' book. These histories that are narrated are important for their underlying moral lessons and are not fully detailed histories of everything that took place. If you cannot understand them as lessons and metaphors for what is happening today around you then the point is missed.
It's not about conjecture, it's about deeper understandings and application to the here and now. What good is just the 'history' to you and I?
Regards.
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Peace all,
Here is the final evidence for those who continue to doubt.
If one looks at 2013...
2013 "I have chosen you, so listen to what is being inspired.
Waana ikhtartuka faistamiAA lima yoohaThis is leaving no ambiguity about the process taking place. The God is unambiguously stating that the 'speech' is actually an inspiration in accordance with 4251.
Also see 7117 where the instruction to throw the staff that corresponds to the same event in 2068 which is 'said' is again shown to be an inspiration.
Regards.
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Peace be upon you Truth and all,
Yes, the God does not speak like a human, the God is not some object out there, it is the indwelling intelligence at the core of all beings.
Brother Ahmed is having trouble accepting this, as will many because they cannot accept that the God is talking RIGHT NOW to us all. We ALL have the potential to have the God "speak" to us, but we have to quiet all he mental chatter and listen. We have been made to believe that the God speaks to "his favoruites" and the rest are subject to these superheros from middle east. No, all of us have the potential.
These conversations and statements are not literal, for example, it is said that the rejectors say "when we are bones will we be brought back to life" (somethig like that). When is the last time you heard that as the argument of a rejector? No, it is not the literal statement, but if you analize the underlying meaning of the rejectors rejection, it is because they think after they die they will account for nothing, they dont trust in cause and EFFECT.
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Peace,
in fact you are only following conjecture, good luck to you
Listen to this guy Oben he apparently has all the correct answers. lol
Joe
Ok sorry, I didn't know that, but I did listen and read what Oben writes, I carry all the respect to him anyway
peace
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Hello Oben
"Kalam Allah Mosa Takilma" is clear as light and Mosa was explicitly chosen for it
based on your logic then "Allah Kalama All the prophet Taklima" but he never said that
so bro I can assure you and logically speaking you are going against the odds
you see a native arabic speaker like me will understand the meaning of any arabic word the moment it was used in a sentence, I donlt need to search for its meaning even if it has more than one meanning as my native arabic tounge will enab,e me to know on the spot which meanning is meant,
not to say I will know every word in the Quran, in fact I agree with any logic that make sense for example regarding cutting the hands of thieves, when I read Joe article, everything in it made 100% sense to me and consequently I adapted that belief and I'm promoting it even
so I have no ego neither I'm arrogant, I'm very open minded and I acceot any compelling logic, and it has to be compelling
peace
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Brother Ahmed is having trouble accepting this, as will many because they cannot accept that the God is talking RIGHT NOW to us all. We ALL have the potential to have the God "speak" to us, but we have to quiet all he mental chatter and listen. We have been made to believe that the God speaks to "his favoruites" and the rest are subject to these superheros from middle east. No, all of us have the potential.
Does that make all of us messengers of God?
If God 'speaks' to us directly, why did He bother sending specific messengers to guide mankind?We have God's sprit in us and that enables us to stand by the righteous. And we have God's essence within us and around us that can inspire us.
But the cases where God's message is conveyed to the messengers of God, to guide mankind, would be different than how we are inspired, wont it?
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PeacefulMuslim Does that make all of us messengers of God?
If God 'speaks' to us directly, why did He bother sending specific messengers to guide mankind?Please read what Kyle said carefully We ALL have the potential to have the God "speak" to us, but we have to quiet all he mental chatter and listen
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If God 'speaks' to us directly, why did He bother sending specific messengers to guide mankind?
The messengers/message are reminders and tools to help us get on track. Don't forget that the destination is God, not the people or books. We don't need mediums to talk to God or vice versa.We ALL have the potential to have the God "speak" to us, but we have to quiet all he mental chatter and listen
Therefore, be aware of God as much as you can, and listen, and obey, and give for your own good. And whosoever is protected from his own stinginess, then these are the successful ones. (6416)
Peace
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The messengers/message are reminders and tools to help us get on track. Don't forget that the destination is God, not the people or books. We don't need mediums to talk to God or vice versa.
Messengers also act as the epicentre of the islamic movement
Only those are believers, who believe in God and His Apostle when they are with him on a matter requiring collective action, they do not depart until they have asked for his leave; those who ask for thy leave are those who believe in God and His Apostle; so when they ask for thy leave, for some business of theirs, give leave to those of them whom thou wilt, and ask God for their forgiveness for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
(24/62)If no more messengers are to come, whats the use of the above verse.
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Does that make all of us messengers of God?
If God 'speaks' to us directly, why did He bother sending specific messengers to guide mankind?Peace,
It really depends what you understand to be a 'messenger'.
Many take it to be some sort of high rank that is given to an individual much as a medal might be given to a hero etc. It is not a status, and nor does it give one a higher status. A messenger is a role; to convey messages and truths to those who otherwise wouldn't experience them.
A messenger delivers the message and is not due any praise, recognition or reward from people. That is how you can detect the false messenger - the aim of the false messenger is to extract recognition, status, power (and sometimes money and other rewards).
It's true that some are honoured with a rank or status - that of being one of the nabiyan or 'prophet' for their outstanding service and commitment to the God alone.
Regards.
