The nature of inspiration - the "voice" of the God
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Peace Ahmed,
?And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is the Most High, Most Wise?
-> Very clearly read in English and Arabic that Allah will only speak to humans through
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An inspiration (internally) and the most commonly known about all prophets
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Directly (audible) BUT only from behind a barrier
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Delivery by a Messenger (this is also known to happen via the Malaika) like Gebril/Mohammad, and also the Malaika who were sent to Lut in human shapes to punish Gomorrah and Sodom cities and surely many other incidents in the Quran
It is very logical that NO 2 above MUST be for real (an audible conversation) as long as it is behind a barrier, it can?t be an inspiration otherwise it should fall under NO 1 above
Form 4251 we must conclude that Allah can talk to humans directly BUT from behind a barrier
If you look at verse 4251 the beginning makes it ABSOLUTE that the God does not SPEAK to human beings. There is no "talking" involved and the verses 2068 makes it clear that there is no audible talk happening when the God 'speaks'.
Your interpretation of number 2 is the traditional understanding. What your understanding of "behind a barrier" is suggesting is that the God plays the role of a ventriloquist - ie. throwing a voice onto some inanimate object like a "burning bush". That is a Judaeo-Christian idea.
The barrier in question is quite obviously not a physical barrier, it cannot be, as the God is not manifest physically; nor is anything in the universe capable of being a physical barrier. The barrier in question is the one that divides the conscious from the unconscious mind.
The God can speak to us behind the veil of consciousness.
In chapter 20 the 'fire' is not a physical fire that Moses experiences. It is the fire that is kindled in his consciousness. The fire represents the beginning of awareness of the God. A fire that he can bring back to the people.
The sandals have a symbolic meaning; Moses removes his sandals because the journeying is not a physical one - it is not to be walked but rather experienced as enlightenment - a journey of the mind to a higher awareness/acknowledgement of the God.
Verse 171 describes this process also in relation to Moses.
Regards.
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Thanks truth and what is your response to 4164?
also being traditional does not make it wrong though
peace
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Peace,
Thanks truth and what is your response to 4164?
also being traditional does not make it wrong though
peace
4164 Warusulan qad qasasnahum AAalayka min qablu warusulan lam naqsushum AAalayka wakallama Allahu moosa takleeman
The translation is...
And the God spoke to Moses a communication.
takleeman - is an act of expressing something ie. communication.
It does not mean "directly" as is commonly mistranslated.
As we know that the 'speaking' does not involve audible speech then we must understand this to mean inspiration into conscious thought, to the unconscious mind, or through a messenger as 4251 indicates.
There is no outwardly heard voice as has been shown clearly by 2068.
Regards.
ALSO Abdul Mannan Omar's dictionary of the Quran mentions that a Kalaam can mean "Idea occurring in the mind even if it is not expressed."
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Peace
Taklima means physical speach, "Wahi means internal communication
so it has to be direct speech
also your point regarding verse 2068 has no merit because it is a different event, i thought you should know that
anyway we will leave it for the others to read and learn, but it seems you are talking the whole Quran as a metaphor thing and surely I classify this as very wrong accordsing to the clear arabic Quran
in fact you are only following conjecture, good luck to you
peace
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thanks for pointing out the KLM rather than the QWL.
PRL"]Kaf-Lam-Miim
275, 7144, 96, 4815
kalimah n.f. (pl. kalimat, and kalim) - word, command, agreement, common term.
237, 2124, 339, 345, 364, 446, 4171, 513, 541, 634, 6115, 7137, 7158, 87, 940, 940, 974, 1019, 1033, 1064, 1082, 1096, 11110, 11119, 1424, 1426, 185, 1827, 18109, 18109, 20129, 23100, 3127, 3510, 37171, 3919, 3971, 406, 4145, 4214, 4221, 4224, 4328, 4826, 6612
kallama vb. (II) - to speak to ro with, act of speaking, directly.
perf. act. - 2252, 4164, 6111, 7143, 1254
impf. act. - 2118, 2174, 341, 346, 377, 5110, 7148, 1910, 1926, 1929, 23108, 2782, 3665, 4251
perf. pas. - 1331
n. vb. 4164
takallama vb. (V) - to speak
impf. act. - 11105, 2416, 3035, 7838
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Peace,
Taklima means physical speach, "Wahi means internal communication
so it has to be direct speech
Ahmed the act of speech is a human thing - the God does not 'speak' as you imagine and I have demonstrated clear proof for it.
To understand maybe another example will convince you. In 2187 the God 'writes' or 'kataba' as He does in other places such as 5822 "kataba fee quloobihimu" or 'writes on their hearts'.
The writing here is understood to be not a physical act of writing with hands and a pen.
So it is with 'kalama' when it applies to the God.
also your point regarding verse 2068 has no merit because it is a different event, i thought you should know that
The event in 2068 is also an instance of 'speech' to Moses which is contained in the same chapter and story.
2077 should be enough for you to understand that this 'speech' is a form of inspiration. Moses is inspired to do certain things. The inspiration is communicated to him similar to how it is in 2068.
anyway we will leave it for the others to read and learn, but it seems you are talking the whole Quran as a metaphor thing and surely I classify this as very wrong accordsing to the clear arabic Quran
in fact you are only following conjecture, good luck to you
The reading does not guide us as a 'history' book. These histories that are narrated are important for their underlying moral lessons and are not fully detailed histories of everything that took place. If you cannot understand them as lessons and metaphors for what is happening today around you then the point is missed.
It's not about conjecture, it's about deeper understandings and application to the here and now. What good is just the 'history' to you and I?
Regards.
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Peace all,
Here is the final evidence for those who continue to doubt.
If one looks at 2013...
2013 "I have chosen you, so listen to what is being inspired.
Waana ikhtartuka faistamiAA lima yoohaThis is leaving no ambiguity about the process taking place. The God is unambiguously stating that the 'speech' is actually an inspiration in accordance with 4251.
Also see 7117 where the instruction to throw the staff that corresponds to the same event in 2068 which is 'said' is again shown to be an inspiration.
Regards.
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Peace be upon you Truth and all,
Yes, the God does not speak like a human, the God is not some object out there, it is the indwelling intelligence at the core of all beings.
Brother Ahmed is having trouble accepting this, as will many because they cannot accept that the God is talking RIGHT NOW to us all. We ALL have the potential to have the God "speak" to us, but we have to quiet all he mental chatter and listen. We have been made to believe that the God speaks to "his favoruites" and the rest are subject to these superheros from middle east. No, all of us have the potential.
These conversations and statements are not literal, for example, it is said that the rejectors say "when we are bones will we be brought back to life" (somethig like that). When is the last time you heard that as the argument of a rejector? No, it is not the literal statement, but if you analize the underlying meaning of the rejectors rejection, it is because they think after they die they will account for nothing, they dont trust in cause and EFFECT.
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Peace,
in fact you are only following conjecture, good luck to you
Listen to this guy Oben he apparently has all the correct answers. lol
Joe
Ok sorry, I didn't know that, but I did listen and read what Oben writes, I carry all the respect to him anyway
peace
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Hello Oben
"Kalam Allah Mosa Takilma" is clear as light and Mosa was explicitly chosen for it
based on your logic then "Allah Kalama All the prophet Taklima" but he never said that
so bro I can assure you and logically speaking you are going against the odds
you see a native arabic speaker like me will understand the meaning of any arabic word the moment it was used in a sentence, I donlt need to search for its meaning even if it has more than one meanning as my native arabic tounge will enab,e me to know on the spot which meanning is meant,
not to say I will know every word in the Quran, in fact I agree with any logic that make sense for example regarding cutting the hands of thieves, when I read Joe article, everything in it made 100% sense to me and consequently I adapted that belief and I'm promoting it even
so I have no ego neither I'm arrogant, I'm very open minded and I acceot any compelling logic, and it has to be compelling
peace
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Brother Ahmed is having trouble accepting this, as will many because they cannot accept that the God is talking RIGHT NOW to us all. We ALL have the potential to have the God "speak" to us, but we have to quiet all he mental chatter and listen. We have been made to believe that the God speaks to "his favoruites" and the rest are subject to these superheros from middle east. No, all of us have the potential.
Does that make all of us messengers of God?
If God 'speaks' to us directly, why did He bother sending specific messengers to guide mankind?We have God's sprit in us and that enables us to stand by the righteous. And we have God's essence within us and around us that can inspire us.
But the cases where God's message is conveyed to the messengers of God, to guide mankind, would be different than how we are inspired, wont it?
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PeacefulMuslim Does that make all of us messengers of God?
If God 'speaks' to us directly, why did He bother sending specific messengers to guide mankind?Please read what Kyle said carefully We ALL have the potential to have the God "speak" to us, but we have to quiet all he mental chatter and listen
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If God 'speaks' to us directly, why did He bother sending specific messengers to guide mankind?
The messengers/message are reminders and tools to help us get on track. Don't forget that the destination is God, not the people or books. We don't need mediums to talk to God or vice versa.We ALL have the potential to have the God "speak" to us, but we have to quiet all he mental chatter and listen
Therefore, be aware of God as much as you can, and listen, and obey, and give for your own good. And whosoever is protected from his own stinginess, then these are the successful ones. (6416)
Peace
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The messengers/message are reminders and tools to help us get on track. Don't forget that the destination is God, not the people or books. We don't need mediums to talk to God or vice versa.
Messengers also act as the epicentre of the islamic movement
Only those are believers, who believe in God and His Apostle when they are with him on a matter requiring collective action, they do not depart until they have asked for his leave; those who ask for thy leave are those who believe in God and His Apostle; so when they ask for thy leave, for some business of theirs, give leave to those of them whom thou wilt, and ask God for their forgiveness for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
(24/62)If no more messengers are to come, whats the use of the above verse.
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Does that make all of us messengers of God?
If God 'speaks' to us directly, why did He bother sending specific messengers to guide mankind?Peace,
It really depends what you understand to be a 'messenger'.
Many take it to be some sort of high rank that is given to an individual much as a medal might be given to a hero etc. It is not a status, and nor does it give one a higher status. A messenger is a role; to convey messages and truths to those who otherwise wouldn't experience them.
A messenger delivers the message and is not due any praise, recognition or reward from people. That is how you can detect the false messenger - the aim of the false messenger is to extract recognition, status, power (and sometimes money and other rewards).
It's true that some are honoured with a rank or status - that of being one of the nabiyan or 'prophet' for their outstanding service and commitment to the God alone.
Regards.
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Hello Ahmed,
Hello Oben
"Kalam Allah Mosa Takilma" is clear as light and Mosa was explicitly chosen for it
based on your logic then "Allah Kalama All the prophet Taklima" but he never said that
so bro I can assure you and logically speaking you are going against the odds
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so I have no ego neither I'm arrogant, I'm very open minded and I acceot any compelling logic, and it has to be compelling
Brother you are missing very important points that are raised here. I will list them as points so you can see how compelling they are.
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4251 states absolutely that there is no 'speaking' of the God in the usual sense you would understand. Just like there is no 'writing' of the God in the usual sense. 4251 makes it clear that the 'speaking' that is mentioned is always through a number of other ways; and is not a 'direct' speech that is heard out loud. The key word is 'illa' - except for.
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2013 clearly states that the communication is happening via inspiration - wahyi - because the word 'yooha' is clear and compelling.
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2068 shows that what the God says is not heard by third parties and is an internal communication.
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Any reference to 'speaking' in a verse relating to the God is therefore through inspiration or the other ways in 4251.
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The God is does not play a ventriloquist throwing an audible voice onto some inanimate object according to my understanding.
The only thing that may still allow you to hold onto the Judaeo-Christian anthropomorphic view is the 'burning bush' parable which is mistranslated to accord with the traditional view.
The idea is an amalgamation of separate verses and we can discuss the problems with the usual translation/understanding. First the fire.
278 When he came to it, he was called "Blessed is the One (who is speaking from) within the fire, and those around it." Glory be to GOD, Lord of the universe.
Falamma jaaha noodiya an boorika man fee alnnari waman hawlaha wasubhana Allahi rabbi alAAalameena
This is not about a voice which is speaking from the fire (note the parenthesis) and a better translation is...
278 When he came to it, he was called "Blessed are those in the fire and those around and glory be to the God, the Lord of existence."
Who are those in the fire and those around? As I explained above - the fire is representing the illumination and enlightenment that comes with the God's guidance. An inspiration that lights up. Those who receive it are blessed, and those around are those who benefit from it also.
2830 When he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley, in the blessed spot where the burning bush was located "O Moses, this is Me. GOD; Lord of the universe.
Falamma ataha noodiya min shati-i alwadi al-aymani fee albuqAAati almubarakati mina alshshajarati an ya moosa innee ana Allahu rabbu alAAalameena
There is no 'burning' in this verse but instead simply 'the tree' so it is best translated as...
2830 When he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley, from a tree in blessed ground "O Moses! I am the God, the Lord of existence."
Why a tree? The tree represents knowledge, a concept related to the enlightenment/illumination as the tree is the fuel for fire.
3680 He is the One who creates for you, from the trees, fuel which you burn for light.
The process of enlightenment, and communication by the God happens through processes that do not involve anthropomorphic voices heard aloud etc.
Peace.
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Hello Ahmed,
Hello mate
Brother you are missing very important points that are raised here. I will list them as points so you can see how compelling they are.
Let's look again at each one bro
- 4251 states absolutely that there is no 'speaking' of the God in the usual sense you would understand.
bro there is nothing in the verse that suggest there was no speaking, in fact the verse is about "KaLaMa" which is to talk
Just like there is no 'writing' of the God in the usual sense.
bro writing is different, please don't mix the two
4251 makes it clear that the 'speaking' that is mentioned is always through a number of other ways; and is not a 'direct' speech that is heard out loud. The key word is 'illa' - except for.
No bro, verse 4251 lists 3 possible ways of talks to humans by God
- via inspiration "like most prophet including Moses"
- directly but behind a barrier "we only know about Moses as Allah told us"
- via a messenger "we know it happened via the angels, an evidence is the Quran we have in out hand and can not b e written by a human"
so the direct speech is listed in the verse which is number 2 above
- 2013 clearly states that the communication is happening via inspiration - wahyi - because the word 'yooha' is clear and compelling.
I'm sorry you don't call someone to inspire him internally, Allah has called Moses "Noodaa" and within the real discussion He told Moses to follow what is inspired which I believe must be the Torah and other thinks that will be communicated internally ?Wahi?
- 2068 shows that what the God says is not heard by third parties and is an internal communication.
True , but you know why?, because it was Wahi ?An Inspiration?, remember when I told you that this is another incident and you deliberately turning a blind eye on it, ok here is the Quran talking about the same incident and in it it clearly sayd it was an inspiration
YUSUFALIWe put it into Moses's mind by inspiration "Throw (now) thy rod"and behold! it swallows up straight away all the falsehoods which they fake!
PICKTHAL And We inspired Moses (saying) Throw thy staff! And lo! it swallowed up their lying show.
SHAKIR And We revealed to Musa, saying Cast your rod; then lo! it devoured the lies they told.
(117)
-> What else I can say bro?, clear as light in English and Arabic in this incident Allah talked to Moses via inspiration consequently no one will hear it even Moses
- Any reference to 'speaking' in a verse relating to the God is therefore through inspiration or the other ways in 4251.
Sure bro, the reference is 7117 talking about the same exact incident and clearly Allah says it is an inspiration, read it above please,
Remember when I said that The Quran is magic and it seems Allah knows what the people thinks about Him and He included the answers in the Quran, what I showed you put a lot of weight to my knowledge about Allah as extracted from the Quran
- The God is does not play a ventriloquist throwing an audible voice onto some inanimate object according to my understanding.
well, God did not say the voice was put unto an object, Allah said it was Him talking behind a barrier
The only thing that may still allow you to hold onto the Judaeo-Christian anthropomorphic view is the 'burning bush' parable which is mistranslated to accord with the traditional view.
I don?t give a fluke really about the Judaeo-Christian or the Judaeo-Islam, I only care about the clear Arabic Quran
The idea is an amalgamation of separate verses and we can discuss the problems with the usual translation/understanding. First the fire.
278 When he came to it, he was called "Blessed is the One (who is speaking from) within the fire, and those around it." Glory be to GOD, Lord of the universe.
Falamma jaaha noodiya an boorika man fee alnnari waman hawlaha wasubhana Allahi rabbi alAAalameena
This is not about a voice which is speaking from the fire (note the parenthesis) and a better translation is...
The Arabic verse never suggested that the voice was coming from the fire, this is a joke bro, right?
278 When he came to it, he was called "Blessed are those in the fire and those around and glory be to the God, the Lord of existence."
Who are those in the fire and those around? As I explained above - the fire is representing the illumination and enlightenment that comes with the God's guidance. An inspiration that lights up. Those who receive it are blessed, and those around are those who benefit from it also.
-> I donlt know but what I know that the verse never said that Allah was in the fire or around the fire, I would say it sounded like an introduction to Moses by Allah, like when you start talking you say ?Hello?, and the fire was mentioned with Barakah so Moses would not be sacred as I know the fire was so huge
2830 When he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley, in the blessed spot where the burning bush was located "O Moses, this is Me. GOD; Lord of the universe.
Falamma ataha noodiya min shati-i alwadi al-aymani fee albuqAAati almubarakati mina alshshajarati an ya moosa innee ana Allahu rabbu alAAalameena
There is no 'burning' in this verse but instead simply 'the tree' so it is best translated as...
yep but the tree maybe another object than the fire, very possible indeed
2830 When he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley, from a tree in blessed ground "O Moses! I am the God, the Lord of existence."
Why a tree? The tree represents knowledge, a concept related to the enlightenment/illumination as the tree is the fuel for fire.
I never knew that the tree represent knowledge, but again what you are saying does not prove your point anyway that Allah didn?t talk directly to Moses, Allah clearly said He did more than one time in the Quran
3680 He is the One who creates for you, from the trees, fuel which you burn for light.
The process of enlightenment, and communication by the God happens through processes that do not involve anthropomorphic voices heard aloud etc.
Peace.
Well you play with the verses well but not good enough mate, verse 3680 is simply talking about a sign that Allah created for us which is the timber we burn, and that timber we get it from the trees, very simple indeed and my 13 years old daughter will understand it with ease
May Allah help you bro
Peace be with you
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This proves that the 'voice' is internal and is not even a dialogue but an inspiration thrown into the person.
Best wishes.What took you so long to realise that truth, Truth?
All spiritual insights in the bygone ages of this world have come from within, from the depth of the soul. Revelation is an "event" that happens in each individual's soul. Prophet Muhammad did not rise up to the highest heavens for his revelations but descended to the very core of his soul to meet his "maker"...
Regards,
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What took you so long to realise that truth, Truth?
Not everyone can be like Maharishi LoteTree
All spiritual insights in the bygone ages of this world have come from within, from the depth of the soul. Revelation is an "event" that happens in each individual's soul. Prophet Muhammad did not rise up to the highest heavens for his revelations but descended to the very core of his soul to meet his "maker"...
FYI, neither ascent or descent was mentioned in al-quraan.
