symbolic interpretation of the "women"
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i try to explain in short (am at work) if not i'll shout for idolfrees help
Take your time. Im grateful for the discussion at least.
Feminin principle would be the emotion - emotional decisions, not based on logic and facts but on feelings, desires. And i insist, women and men can be prone to take such decisions... These have to be confined in order to find solutions to problems each and everybody meets in life
I see, ok. I would have to disagree because the word 'al-maut' in 4/16 refers to a physical death as far as my research goes.
And mquran, sorry but you're a man. That why you can accept the idea of confinement for women. Which woman here would accept this idea of confinement by their husband today ? At least in locations where we are independant. And i insist again - god is just - al adel - why wouldn't lewd men be confined then ?
Im sorry, but my gender has nothing to do with my understanding. If your interpretation is correct, it would stand out regardless of my gender. I also cannot accept the 'today' example because my approach to al-quraan is time-transcendant.
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peace mquran
you wrote
I would have to disagree because the word 'al-maut' in 4/16 refers to a physical death as far as my research goes.i see no problem there. Physical death is also the end of our chance to overcome wrong behaviour, at least at this plane of life.
my approach to al-quraan is time-transcendant.
no problem, mine is as well but i believe in ijtihad. the essence of quran is for me in the spiritual message, laws as such can evolve with the environment
lk
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Peace Elke,
i see no problem there. Physical death is also the end of our chance to overcome wrong behaviour, at least at this plane of life.
Please look at the verse again
If any of nisaaikum are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some way.(4/15)How does one's feminine principle become guilty of lewdness? I'm sorry but this is trying to fit square peg into a round hole. And if one's feminine principle is guilty, why does one's masculine principle get incarcerated as well ?
no problem, mine is as well but i believe in ijtihad. the essence of quran is for me in the spiritual message, laws as such can evolve with the environment
Ok. Al-quraan supports no such dichotomy, fyi. I respect your view but don't find it islamic.
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Peace be upon you MQ,
I dont know the true meaning of this verse yet, but I would like to think out loud in reference to your post.
If any of nisaaikum are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some way.(4/15)
How does one's feminine principle become guilty of lewdness?
the masculine and feminine are the opposite sides of polarity of all things, like hot(masculine) and cold(feminine), day(masculine) and night(feminine), etc. In terms of revelation, the masculine would be the sender, the feminine would be the reciever. So we can metaphorize this as a marriage of the sender and reciever. However, if one finds thier "receptive faculty" guilty of lewdness, that is, accepting foolish messages other than the one they should be married to, then we should take 4 witnesses....
Let me pause for a moment and state that this number 4 must be studied more thoroughly. I "sense" it is connected to shayteen attacking from 4 positions and also to Ibrahim taking four birds, training them to answer his call in response to the God sowing him how God raises the dead.
And if one's feminine principle is guilty, why does one's masculine principle get incarcerated as well ?
The masculine principle is the part of us that we share with The God, remember he has blown HIS RUH into us. So in saying that, we can even see the correspondence to ruh(masculine) and nafs(feminine).
Regarding to confining them to houses, we have to make go back to the threads about "bayt".
In conclusion, one thing we know is that confining women and not men to houses just doesnt sound right literally, do we agree?
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Salaamun alaikum Kyle and Elke,
KyleI dont know the true meaning of this verse yet, but I would like to think out loud in reference to your post.
Go ahead, its how correct interpretations are arrived at )
the masculine and feminine are the opposite sides of polarity of all things, like hot(masculine) and cold(feminine), day(masculine) and night(feminine), etc. In terms of revelation, the masculine would be the sender, the feminine would be the reciever. So we can metaphorize this as a marriage of the sender and reciever. However, if one finds thier "receptive faculty" guilty of lewdness, that is, accepting foolish messages other than the one they should be married to, then we should take 4 witnesses....
Kyle, the context of this verse negates your interpretation. I can sense the forcedness in your attempt above. If you look at 4/19 onwards, metaphorisation is impossible because its clearly talking about a social dimension.
Let me pause for a moment and state that this number 4 must be studied more thoroughly. I "sense" it is connected to shayteen attacking from 4 positions and also to Ibrahim taking four birds, training them to answer his call in response to the God sowing him how God raises the dead.
Ok man, when you get something more concrete about the 4 connection, do let me know.
The masculine principle is the part of us that we share with The God, remember he has blown HIS RUH into us. So in saying that, we can even see the correspondence to ruh(masculine) and nafs(feminine).
Regarding to confining them to houses, we have to make go back to the threads about "bayt".
In conclusion, one thing we know is that confining women and not men to houses just doesnt sound right literally, do we agree?
Im sorry, I dont see the marriage of the ruh and nafs in al-quraan. The only link is via adam and certainly doesnt indicate this. I'm sorry Kyle, but Im very averse to importing alien theologies into my understanding. I'm trying to do the opposite after all.
You're right in that it's confining them to 'the houses' (fee AL-buyoot) which I take to mean in the Islamic domains. Its not in thier houses (buyutikunna).
Also 'doesnt sound right' assumes a reference. In order to access the Quraan, we're told to purify ourselves. Maybe according to our modern standards this is wrong or maybe our own modern standards is wrong.
Elke you're the one who sees incarceration because you have an exclusively litteral understanding. No problem for me here either. But true, i have to reflect some more on the four witnesses...
Ok, instead of incarceration, what do you see ?
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Peace LK, MQ,
I find interesting the translation of 415-16 by shabir
415 Protection of honor and chastity for men and women, both, is the cornerstone of a virtuous society (1732), (424). If any woman or a group of women spread sexual immorality or lewdness in the society, it is required that the appropriate court takes four honorable and reliable witnesses. If their testimony corroborates with other evidence (1226), confine them to their houses, since immorality is as contagious as good conduct. This confinement would be for an indefinite period, unless such women seek the Way of Allah, such as repentance and amendment, or the singles among them get honorably married.
I think that "hattayatawaffahunna almawtu" translated as "until death takes them" shouldn't be considered in its literal meaning because of the last part of the the verse 415 "or God makes for them a way out".
416 If a couple spreads such immorality or lewdness in the society, both of them shall be punished by the appropriate court of law. If they repent and amend, leave them alone. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance, Merciful.
I think both man and women are concerned by the same punishment. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance of both man and women.
What do you think?
Thanks
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Peace LK, MQ,
I find interesting the translation of 415-16 by shabir
415 Protection of honor and chastity for men and women, both, is the cornerstone of a virtuous society (1732), (424). If any woman or a group of women spread sexual immorality or lewdness in the society, it is required that the appropriate court takes four honorable and reliable witnesses. If their testimony corroborates with other evidence (1226), confine them to their houses, since immorality is as contagious as good conduct. This confinement would be for an indefinite period, unless such women seek the Way of Allah, such as repentance and amendment, or the singles among them get honorably married.
I think that "hattayatawaffahunna almawtu" translated as "until death takes them" shouldn't be considered in its literal meaning because of the last part of the the verse 415 "or God makes for them a way out".
416 If a couple spreads such immorality or lewdness in the society, both of them shall be punished by the appropriate court of law. If they repent and amend, leave them alone. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance, Merciful.
I think both man and women are concerned by the same punishment. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance of both man and women.
What do you think?
Thanks
Thank you marie, well said and very logical
The verse is crystal clear in arabic and you brought in the best interpetation that is very compatible with the Arabic words
my point is why people hold this aagainst the Quran and Allah?
Allah documented all the laws we need to prosper, the above lawa is talking about a woman committing adultery and to protect her from her husband, THE HUSBAND MUST BRING 4 RELIABLE WITNESSES that his wife committed adultery
now if proven then he has two options
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throw her in the streets and marry a better and clean woman
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if he loves her, then he can try to keep her and fix her flaw "if she still loves him"
I actually kknw a lot of wives who cheated in theor husbands "in muslim countries" and when their husband found out, they didn't go mad rather they tried hard not to destroy the family, now many years after they are still living happily together, no bull, it is true stories and I know the peole very well
also I know that if I cheat on my wife and she finds out, show will throw me in the streets, we are even guys
peace to all and to Elke
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Peace Mquran, all
Peace Marie,
My view is, until death takes them should be taken literally because its 'al-maut' and I've seen 'al-maut' to be literal. However, if those women seek sabeelillah, then the confinement should end.
I think we are speaking about the same thing, if they (two women) refuses to seek the Way of Allah, such as repentance and amendment, their confinement should be extended till they die..
The crime spoken of in 416 is the same as that in 415. For me, both man and women are under the same punishment.
The adulteress and the adulterer are under the same law (242)
I think the translation of "faathoohuma" as "then you shall annoy them"(FM) or "give them both a slight punishment" (Muhammad Ali) is not correct and ambigous.
Then how to punish the two men who commit the same crime is explained in the light of 415.
PLease let me know your understanding of 416.
Thanks
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Hello Marie
is "Al Lati" Muthany i.e. "for double" or it is "Gameh" Plural "for more than 2 women"?
peace
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Peace LK,
Peace all,
could i know who made an independant thread of this ? Cause it was not me...
Not that i am against it in principle, but its the name of the initiator of the thread that should appear. Just in order to be correct...
Sorry for the confusion.
If you find the title of this thread uncorrect, you can suggest another title )
For the futur, feel free to create another thread which does not cover the same subject.
The separation of one thread in several threads is not a recreation for me
Peace
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Hello
I believe the 4 witnesses are also mentioned in the Torah, I have to find it though
peace
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Hello Marie
for your reference if you can read arabic, sorry if you can;t read it, I can translate later as I'm just about to got to bed
" " " " , , , ; . " " ; " " , " " , " " . , . " " ; . . ; " " , ; . ; .
peace
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Hello Marie
for your reference if you can read arabic, sorry if you can;t read it, I can translate later as I'm just about to got to bed
Thank you very much for the information. I agree allaatee is the plural form of allatee.
You can post in arabic language because Arabic is my mother tongue.
Have a good night.
Here in france, it is 1355 (PM).
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Peace be upon you MQ and all,
Thanks for the critisism on my brainstorming.
Yes, I agree it is a social context, but in order for men to recieve the same warning, it must be taken as symbolic. I will ask you to think about why all messengers are Masculine. Certainly females deliver truth to others, so we know that the female can be a messenger too. But it is symbolic of the "yin and yng" of life.
In the same manner, the female is used in this context to speak about incorrect behavior. It addresses the female side of all humans, the receptive side. It is the masculine side of ALL humans that is symbolized as the messenger side, and the female is the recieving side.
please give me clarification on the gender of verse 4/16 so I can check my position
So it is the Human that must be confined to the systems(buyoot) until they are corrected.