Moses companion
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Peace be upon you,
Moses companion was a Human "Nabi" his name was "Al Khadr"
Please show the verses where you read that.
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Peace be upon you,
Moses companion was a Human "Nabi" his name was "Al Khadr"
Please show the verses where you read that.
Peace be with you
look bro, I don't have to show the verses for every thing in life, I'm an educated man and I eat books since I was 8 years old, and there is a group of highly educted writers that gained my trust so I take their words as nothing but a mere historical record
now do you agree that Moses companion was a Nabi or not?, forget the name, ok
also bro we have to discuss the mathematical miracle of the Quran please
peace
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
Likewise brother
look bro, I don't have to show the verses for every thing in life, I'm an educated man and I eat books since I was 8 years old, and there is a group of highly educted writers that gained my trust so I take their words as nothing but a mere historical record
Respected brother, please hold on to the peace. I am not attacking your intellect,
sorry bro if you misunderstood me, I'm always holding to peace, but debating issues always has a price to pay even between the closetes and most loveable persons, like between me and my wife for example, so it is just the nature of debating, no hard feelings whatsoever
I know you are not attacking my intellect bro
I am only asking for verification of the statement you made. If the statement you made was a copy of someone elses statement, please provide thier proof so I can investigate. I build houses on solid foundation, not sandy cliffs, so I cant just accept statements on blind faith, and since I cannot locate the info you gave, I am asking for your help. But please remain patient, please let peace be your mode of operation.
ok bro, when I was 8 years old I was given a present which was a book by a famous egyptian writer named "Ahmed Bahgat" he still writes till this moment in Al Aharm Newspaper in Egypt, the book was about the stpries of the prophets as exctracted from the Quran and also by refering to some biblical sources, the book version was for children but it was so fascinating that when I grew up a little I bough all the books that talk about the story of the prophets including Ibn Kathir, all these books says that this man was a Nabi from the thousands Allah sent to humanity they gave him a name called Al Khadr and they all agreed on that, NONE HAS ARGUED THIS FACT, the Quran did not say his name but it sayd clearly what may incline that Al Khadr was one of those thousands of the Anbiaa
65- "So they found one of Our servants, on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence."
66- "Moses said to him "May I follow thee, on the footing that thou teach me something of the (Higher) Truth which thou hast been taught?"
(65)
(66)
from the above two verses we can understand that Allah had bestowed Mercy and taught this man knowledge from ladanho.,
and the above sounds like a Nabi to me, and knwing that Allah has sent thousands of Anbiaa, then most likely he was one of them
I don't think being to suggest he was a nabi will affect the story told in any way, as well suggesting thatn his name is Al Khadr should affected it either
now do you agree that Moses companion was a Nabi or not?, forget the name, ok
No, I do not agree so far, I see no evidence that suggests that he was a prophet, do you have any evidence?
I provided it above bro, however we know at least that he was a man so what do you think he was?, just a righteous man?,
that is fine with mem and I have no problem to accept that, but as I stated I'm inclined to believe that he was one of the thousands of prophets sent by Allah
also bro we have to discuss the mathematical miracle of the Quran please
Well, we can try, but honestly I am tired of that topic and it is a waste of time for me. I was heavily into that theory some years ago and was a "19 warrior", until I freed myslef of that trial(fitna).
I'm tired of it too bro, but I thought you directed me to a few links and I read them all throughly and now it is about time to discuss when you wish, but just to let you know, I don't believe that this so called mathematical miracle exist in the Quran
peace be with you bro and sorry for the misunderstanding
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
Yes, Musa's teacher was wise, but I see no evidence that it was a real human or a prophet.
Further I do not take Musa as a real historical figure, but a story to help us understand ourselves.
Musa's teacher might have been wisdom itself, personified, but not given any name or rank so we would understand this. I am unsure at this time.
Regarding 19 code, I doubt it was me who provided you any links about it, I dont entertain it anymore unless we are talking about Tree of Life(Kabala).
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
peace be with you bro
Yes, Musa's teacher was wise, but I see no evidence that it was a real human or a prophet.
Bro, is there any thing that says he was not a human?
sure none, so why we assume he was not a human, while you just described him as beening wise?, the common sense says, most likely it he was a human, or at least an angel in a human shape like the ones sent to Lut, but Allah told us about the ones sent to Lut as angels looking like humans, but in Moses case, nothing was told but he was a "Righteous Abd"
Further I do not take Musa as a real historical figure, but a story to help us understand ourselves.
ok bro, this will make it even worse, so Allah is fooling us when He says in the Quran that a believer must believe in all messengers while He forgot to tell us that most of the stories if not all in the Quran are metaphor so we learn
so accordingly you don't believe that Abraham was put in a real fire and Allah talked to the fire to save Abraham?
Musa's teacher might have been wisdom itself, personified, but not given any name or rank so we would understand this. I am unsure at this time.
ok, so the wisdom appeared in a human shape and conversed with Moses?, I would say a malak appearing in a human shape will make more sense for sure
Regarding 19 code, I doubt it was me who provided you any links about it, I dont entertain it anymore unless we are talking about Tree of Life(Kabala).
possibly you are right bro and I got mixed up, sorry mate
peace
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
Bro, is there any thing that says he was not a human?
No, but in a message that deals with symbolisms to explain human behavior, with concepts like jinn, malaika, shayteen, etc. I cannot say for sure that it is a human. Further, even if we do take it as human, it is still a metaphorical human like the rest, designed to help us understand the human behavioral processes.
sure none, so why we assume he was not a human, while you just described him as beening wise?, the common sense says, most likely it he was a human, or at least an angel in a human shape like the ones sent to Lut, but Allah told us about the ones sent to Lut as angels looking like humans, but in Moses case, nothing was told but he was a "Righteous Abd"
I disagree, both ways at this point are only guessing. I have not settled on any description of name for the being. I think to assume human is a mistake, but I will not hold it against you. But even if you take it as a human, there is certainly no verification for the name "Al Khidr".
idolfree1 wrote
Further I do not take Musa as a real historical figure, but a story to help us understand ourselves.ok bro, this will make it even worse, so Allah is fooling us when He says in the Quran that a believer must believe in all messengers while He forgot to tell us that most of the stories if not all in the Quran are metaphor so we learn
so accordingly you don't believe that Abraham was put in a real fire and Allah talked to the fire to save Abraham?
NO, there was no Abraham and there was no literal fire. Yes, we are to believe in teh God's messengers, but this does not mean we believe in historical figures we cant prove. Are you aware that the God says that some messenegrs He told us about and some He did not? How do you believe in the ones not talked about? The answer is to believe in the message, by doing so you automatically by default believe in all the messengers. Otherwise, it is not possible to believe in all the messengers because there are some that you were never told about. I will provide the verse if you need it.
idolfree1 wrote
Musa's teacher might have been wisdom itself, personified, but not given any name or rank so we would understand this. I am unsure at this time.ok, so the wisdom appeared in a human shape and conversed with Moses?, I would say a malak appearing in a human shape will make more sense for sure
I am saying that Musa represents a faculty within us that is searching, and this being represents some wisdom that come to him, it is made into a story to help the understanding.
idolfree1 wrote
Regarding 19 code, I doubt it was me who provided you any links about it, I dont entertain it anymore unless we are talking about Tree of Life(Kabala).possibly you are right bro and I got mixed up, sorry mate
No problem brother
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
Likewise mate
Bro, is there any thing that says he was not a human?
No, but in a message that deals with symbolisms to explain human behavior, with concepts like jinn, malaika, shayteen, etc. I cannot say for sure that it is a human. Further, even if we do take it as human, it is still a metaphorical human like the rest, designed to help us understand the human behavioral processes.
based on that, everything in the Quran must be a symbol even the book and God himself, make sense?
sure none, so why we assume he was not a human, while you just described him as beening wise?, the common sense says, most likely it he was a human, or at least an angel in a human shape like the ones sent to Lut, but Allah told us about the ones sent to Lut as angels looking like humans, but in Moses case, nothing was told but he was a "Righteous Abd"
I disagree, both ways at this point are only guessing. I have not settled on any description of name for the being. I think to assume human is a mistake, but I will not hold it against you. But even if you take it as a human, there is certainly no verification for the name "Al Khidr".
I agreed previously to drop the name "Al Khidr" but I'm sure he had a name if that story is not a symbol
so splitting of the red sea during Moses time is a symbol you reckon?
idolfree1 wrote
Further I do not take Musa as a real historical figure, but a story to help us understand ourselves.Then Mohammad is also a symbol, or what do you think?, in anotherway, your grand grand father that you didn't see him would be a symbol?
but let me ask you this question, please?
can you explain to me the difference between believing in a prophet who never existed and was a mere story tale, and believing in him as a real human sent by God?
NO, there was no Abraham and there was no literal fire. Yes, we are to believe in teh God's messengers, but this does not mean we believe in historical figures we cant prove.
I thought Allah has requested from the believers to believe in Him and believe in the UNSEEN? page 2 of the Quran verse 23
How this request be a symbol bro?, unless it is the one that is telling us to believe in symbols "unseen" "Ghayb"?
Are you aware that the God says that some messenegrs He told us about and some He did not?
of course, I know Allah has sent thousands of messengers but He only mentioned a few, He also confirmed that some prophets were not mentioned, which in effect means if these stories were symbol to teach us a lesson, then Allah didn;t give us all the required lessons, He is deceiving us indeed
How do you believe in the ones not talked about? The answer is to believe in the message, by doing so you automatically by default believe in all the messengers. Otherwise, it is not possible to believe in all the messengers because there are some that you were never told about. I will provide the verse if you need it.
When Allah asked me to believe in them, He only told me to believe in them, He did not ask me to identify them by name, he has given me a few examples that covers the BIG ONES "from His perspective" then told me there is more but I will not mention them then He asked me to believe in all of them and most importantly He asked me in 5 locations in the Quran NOT TO MAKE ANY DISTICTION BETWEEN ANY OF THEM, THEY ALL EQUAL, so I will always refer to them by "THEM"
idolfree1 wrote
Musa's teacher might have been wisdom itself, personified, but not given any name or rank so we would understand this. I am unsure at this time.ok, so the wisdom appeared in a human shape and conversed with Moses?, I would say a malak appearing in a human shape will make more sense for sure
I am saying that Musa represents a faculty within us that is searching, and this being represents some wisdom that come to him, it is made into a story to help the understanding.
ok, why many then?, why not one symbol that Allah uses in the whole Quran
I remember in the early days when they used to teach us as kids, the whole book has a symbol of a young boy called "Adel" and another symbol of a young girl called "Soaad" lol , the point is through the whole book Adel stayed Adel, and Soaad stayed Soaad, unless they were playing hide and seek lol
but within the symbols of the Quran, it is going to be very confusing bro, too many symbols indeed, which will make the book at the end 100% HUMAN MADE
idolfree1 wrote
Regarding 19 code, I doubt it was me who provided you any links about it, I dont entertain it anymore unless we are talking about Tree of Life(Kabala).possibly you are right bro and I got mixed up, sorry mate
No problem brother
Peace be with you man
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Hello
Here is something that was compiled on my computer from my readings, I think it is by Harun Yehya
The kings of Egypt-known as "Pharaohs" (or "Fir'awn" in the Arabic of the Quran)-regarded themselves as divine in the polytheistic, superstitious religion of ancient Egypt. At a time when the people of Egypt favoured a superstitious belief system over a divine belief system-the same era in which when the Children of Israel were enslaved-Allah sent the Prophet Moses as a messenger to the tribe of Egypt.
However, Pharaoh and his court, and the people of Egypt in general, almost universally refused to abandon their idolatrous beliefs when the Prophet Moses called them to divine religion and the Oneness of Allah. The Prophet Moses revealed to Pharaoh and his courtiers that they should avoid false worship, warning them of Allah's wrath. In response to this, they rose up and slandered the Prophet Moses They accused him of being mad, of being a sorcerer and of falsehood. Pharaoh and his people refused to submit to the Prophet Moses even though many troubles were visited upon them. They refused to accept Allah as the only God. They even held the Prophet Moses responsible for what had befallen them and sought to exile him from Egypt. This is described exactly in the Quran
http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/mos1.jpg
As revealed in the Quran, the two communities met at the edge of the sea following this pursuit. Allah divided the sea and saved the Prophet Moses (as) and the believers with him, destroying Pharaoh and his people.http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/mses2.jpg
The map shows the route taken by the Prophet Moses after leaving Egypt and the estimated location of the site where the sea divided.
The diagram shows the shallow and deeper areas. It is at this point that the Sinai Peninsula and Arabia approach each other most closely.In connection with this subject, the following account has recently been found in papyruses from the time of Pharaoh
From Amenamoni, head of the protective books of the white room of the palace, to the scribe PenterhorWhen this letter reaches you and has been read point by point, surrender your heart to the sharpest pain, like a leaf before the storm, when you learn of the sorrowful disaster of the drowning in the whirlpool?
Calamity struck him suddenly and inescapably. Depict the destruction of the lords, the lord of the tribes, the king of the east and the west. The sleep in the waters has made something helpless out of something great. What news can compare to the news I have sent you?I have added a red mark to the location where verse 260 in the Quran was talking about
The yellow mark is where the miracle of the sea split has happened
The green mark near the Egytian Delta ?Cairo Currently? is where Pharaoh started chasing Moses
The orange mark is marking Sinai which is also part of EgyptThis miracle, experienced by the Prophet Moses and the Children of Israel as they crossed the Red Sea, has been the subject of many studies. Archaeological investigations have established not only the path taken to the Red Sea after leaving Egypt, but also that the place where Pharaoh and the Prophet Moses and his tribe met was one surrounded by mountains.
http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/mos3.jpg
The mountain known as Jabal-al Musa is generally regarded as being in the Sinai Peninsula. However, recent findings have shown that it is actually on the Arabian shore of the Red Sea.http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/m1.jpg
Following a long and difficult journey for the Prophet Moses and the Israelites, a passage out between the mountains could be seen.http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/m3.jpg
That part of the Sinai Peninsula opening onto the Gulf.Following a great deal of study and investigation taking this as the starting point, scientists came to striking conclusions with regard to how the sea was divided into two. These conclusions are in full agreement with those revealed in the Quran. The way that historical events described in the Quran are today illuminated by historical records is without doubt an important miracle of the book of Islam.
Naum Volzinger and Alexei Androsov, two Russian mathematicians, proved that the Prophet Moses could indeed have parted the sea. Unlike those scientists who concentrated on the probability of such a miracle, the Russian mathematicians investigated the conditions that might have led to the miracle. In turn, this led to the confirmation of the miracle itself.
http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/moses5.jpg
Pharaoh?s royal chariot is on display in a museum in Egypt. A similar example was found during excavations in the location where the sea divided.According to the study which was published in the Bulletin of the Russian Academy of Sciences, there was a reef, which was close to the surface in the Red Sea at that time. From there, the scientists set about establishing the speed of the wind and the strength of the storm needed to leave the reef high and dry at low tide. As a result, it became apparent that a wind speed of 30 metres per second would have caused the sea to retract, leaving the reef exposed. Naum Volzinger, of the Institute of Oceanography of the Russian Academy of Sciences, stated that "if the wind blew all night at a speed of 30 metres per second then the reef would be dry." He also said that "it would take the Jews-there were 600,000 of them-four hours to cross the 7 kilometre reef that runs from one coast to another? then, in half an hour, the waters would come back." In addition, Volzinger said that he and his colleague Androsov studied the issue strictly from Isaac Newton's point of view. As he put it, "I am convinced that God rules the Earth through the laws of physics."
Peace
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
based on that, everything in the Quran must be a symbol even the book and God himself, make sense?
quran is not the title of any book, Kitaab = universal law and is metaphorized as "the book", God represents the indwelling inteligence at the core of our being that is described by its attributes.
I agreed previously to drop the name "Al Khidr" but I'm sure he had a name if that story is not a symbol
Well, I will let you spend the time to find the name
so splitting of the red sea during Moses time is a symbol you reckon?
Yes, because humans dont put sticks in the sea and cause it to split. We have been given eyes , ears and intelllect that we are responsible for. For the purpose of this metaphor, you will have to imagine walking on firm land, then trying to walk in water at the beach. Can you imagine the difference? One is STABLE, the other is UNSTABLE. Musa used stability to escape the instability of Firauns civilization. We also have to look at the staff of Moses and see that symbolism and why it is used in this story.
idolfree1 wrote
Further I do not take Musa as a real historical figure, but a story to help us understand ourselves.Then Mohammad is also a symbol, or what do you think?,
Muhammadun means one who has "hamd", it is not a person in histroy but ANYONE in history or the present who has "hamd".
in anotherway, your grand grand father that you didn't see him would be a symbol?
I'll put it to you like this, I wont spend time trying to prove my grand grand father, but if there is a story passed down to me about him that will help you in your life, I will pass the story on to you so you can get the lesson. It wont matter if he was real or no if the story helps your life.
but let me ask you this question, please?
can you explain to me the difference between believing in a prophet who never existed and was a mere story tale, and believing in him as a real human sent by God?
Yes, the metaphorical one will allow me to realize these stories within myself, the literal one will divide people through religions/sects and have people waiting for saviors and looking for Holy tablets, Arks, etc. The literal one will have people in Tsunamis and in New Orleans , or in Pakistani earthquakes wondering why the God "saves" people in history but not them.
Here's a verse for you to ponder
(2434) And We had descended to you clear signs, and an Similitude/Metaphor (mathalan) from those who past/expired from before you, and an advice/warning to the fearing and obeying.
idolfree1 wrote
NO, there was no Abraham and there was no literal fire. Yes, we are to believe in teh God's messengers, but this does not mean we believe in historical figures we cant prove.I thought Allah has requested from the believers to believe in Him and believe in the UNSEEN? page 2 of the Quran verse 23
How this request be a symbol bro?, unless it is the one that is telling us to believe in symbols "unseen" "Ghayb"?
Verse 23 instructs us to trust in the unseen, meaning the unseen laws that govern our lives, not "santa claus" or other fictional characters.
Regarding Ibrahim, it is a character designed to teach us a lesson, it is the lesson we seek, not verification of a historical figure that walked through fire like superman. (my jokes are to keep the conversation light and drive the point home not insult to your intelligence).
idolfree1 wrote
Are you aware that the God says that some messenegrs He told us about and some He did not?of course, I know Allah has sent thousands of messengers but He only mentioned a few, He also confirmed that some prophets were not mentioned, which in effect means if these stories were symbol to teach us a lesson, then Allah didn;t give us all the required lessons, He is deceiving us indeed
I would suggest understanding the lessons before you say all the lessons were not given.
idolfree1 wrote
How do you believe in the ones not talked about? The answer is to believe in the message, by doing so you automatically by default believe in all the messengers. Otherwise, it is not possible to believe in all the messengers because there are some that you were never told about. I will provide the verse if you need it.When Allah asked me to believe in them, He only told me to believe in them, He did not ask me to identify them by name, he has given me a few examples that covers the BIG ONES "from His perspective" then told me there is more but I will not mention them then He asked me to believe in all of them and most importantly He asked me in 5 locations in the Quran NOT TO MAKE ANY DISTICTION BETWEEN ANY OF THEM, THEY ALL EQUAL, so I will always refer to them by "THEM"
I am making no distincton, just trying to figure out how you believe in someone you dont know or are never told about literally? It cant be done. It means we should believe in the SAME MESSAGE thatis sent by all messengers, this waythere is no distinction and thee is automatic belief in ALL the messengers.
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idolfree1 wrote
Musa's teacher might have been wisdom itself, personified, but not given any name or rank so we would understand this. I am unsure at this time.ok, so the wisdom appeared in a human shape and conversed with Moses?, I would say a malak appearing in a human shape will make more sense for sure
Thats fine, they all look like humans in our minds, thats the reason for personification. Just dont take it as a literal story. Extract the lesson and use it in your life.
idolfree1 wrote
I am saying that Musa represents a faculty within us that is searching, and this being represents some wisdom that come to him, it is made into a story to help the understanding.ok, why many then?, why not one symbol that Allah uses in the whole Quran
What do you mean by many? They all represent different faculties. They all address life from different angles. We all have different strengths and weaknesses.
I remember in the early days when they used to teach us as kids, the whole book has a symbol of a young boy called "Adel" and another symbol of a young girl called "Soaad" , the point is through the whole book Adel stayed Adel, and Soaad stayed Soaad, unless they were playing hide and seek
but within the symbols of the Quran, it is going to be very confusing bro, too many symbols indeed, which will make the book at the end 100% HUMAN MADE
You think the God wrote it and dropped it out of the sky? It is the writing of an inspired human. It is not confusing, you are just new to this idea, it will take time for you to appreciate the symbolisms and how powerful they are.
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Peace be upon you Elke,
good to see two guys with so different views that still talk to each other nicely
Thanks, we try
I believe that both things are possible in the same time; meaning that mohamed really existed but that at the same time there always is a symbolic meaning involved.
Yes, both are possible, but one is useful and one is useless in regards to our guidance. The truth is none of us can prove it true or false. BUT, the God tells us no to go after that which we have no knowledge of, so I go after the metaphorical understanding which is verified by our everyday life experiences.
I also have no problem about moses striking/separating the red seas - god can do what he wishes
Yes, the Indwelling Intelligence is certainly capable of anything, but we are told to look at creation for a reason, we are told to ponder and meditate for a reason. When we look, we see STRICT MATHEMATICAL PATTERNS in life. We see LAWS in everything. None of us have witnessed anything like a man splitting a sea. None have witnesses a stick turning into a snake. None of the people any of us has met has seen or heard of such a thing. We have to be responsible and stop fearing that not trusting obvious falsehood will cause lighting to strike us or some calamity. There are deep lessons in these stories to help us get to a peaceful mind state. Peace be upon you Elke
but true if someone told me something like this happening today i would have difficulty believing it.
Of course! It doesnt add up to LAW.
code 19 - may be it exists but people made an idol of it
I have no comment about 19
and sorry to touch another point not really discussed here
a symbolic interpretation of the "women" (feminin principle) to be confined in their houses until death unless gods shows them a way out is much more acceptable to me than real confinement of women. Even though at the time of the prophet - and in some countries nowadays - the fact to keep a woman in your house instead of throwing her out in the street could have been a protection for her. But the fact is - injustice is not accceptable to me - why is same law not applied to men - which leads me to believe - god being just - that what is actually talked about is symbolic - each one of us- man or woman - having both the feminin and the masculine principle inside...
I agree 100% that is is metaphorical, I am still pondering its meaning though. I am sure you have a good understanding of the yin and yang of all things, the God created all things in pairs.
The masculine is like the message that comes to us and the feminine would be the effect created by the message. A VERY LOOSE interpretation MIGHT BE that we confine our FORMED HABITS (feminine) until we from new ones, something along those lines. That is just off the top of my head and not verified, only shown to give another option to looking at this verse.
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
Here is something that was compiled on my computer from my readings, I think it is by Harun Yehya
The kings of Egypt-known as "Pharaohs" (or "Fir'awn" in the Arabic of the Quran)-
The Kings of Egypt referred to themselves as "Shekem", Pharoah was the name others gave to them.
regarded themselves as divine in the polytheistic, superstitious religion of ancient Egypt.
Polytheistic according to who? Thats like saying "islam" is polytheistic because of the 99 attributes. It is EXACTLY the same thing.
At a time when the people of Egypt favoured a superstitious belief system over a divine belief system-the same era in which when the Children of Israel were enslaved-Allah sent the Prophet Moses as a messenger to the tribe of Egypt.
No such history exists. No such enslavement has ever been recorded by the people of that time.
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
Likewise bro
Here is something that was compiled on my computer from my readings, I think it is by Harun Yehya
The Kings of Egypt referred to themselves as "Shekem", Pharoah was the name others gave to them.
Bro Pharoah is a Title, like President, you know I'm an egtptian and studied the Rgyptian History for years at school
regarded themselves as divine in the polytheistic, superstitious religion of ancient Egypt.
Polytheistic according to who? Thats like saying "islam" is polytheistic because of the 99 attributes. It is EXACTLY the same thing.
According to themselves bro
the 99 attributes has nothing to do with Islam, it is 99 decription to Allah and the one who said was Allah, now we know Allah is not a human, like Pharaoh
At a time when the people of Egypt favoured a superstitious belief system over a divine belief system-the same era in which when the Children of Israel were enslaved-Allah sent the Prophet Moses as a messenger to the tribe of Egypt.
No such history exists. No such enslavement has ever been recorded by the people of that time.
How do you know?, did you study the Egyptian History ever, or you just had a bit of a read about it?
peace
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Hello
Here is something I compiled on my forum from Isamic Awarness
Quranic Accuracy Vs. Biblical Error The Kings & Pharaohs Of Egypt
- Introduction
This paper proposes to investigate the usage of the titles "King" and "Pharaoh" during the time of Abraham(P), Joseph(P) and Moses(P) as used in both the Bible and the Quran.
For all kings, the contemporaries of Abraham(P), Joseph(P) and Moses(P), the Bible uses the term "Pharaoh" to address the kings of Egypt. The Quran however differs from the Bible the sovereign of Egypt who was a contemporary of Joseph(P) is named "King" (Arabic, Malik); whereas the Bible has named him "Pharaoh". As for the king who ruled during the time of Moses(P) the Quran repeatedly calls him "Pharaoh" (Arabic, Fir'awn).
These differences in detail between the Biblical and Quranic narrations appear to have great significance as will be discussed in this paper.- Biblical Usage Of The Word "Pharaoh"
Some examples of the usage of the word Pharaoh are presented below, and are taken from the stories of Abraham(P), Joseph(P) and Moses.
2.1 Pharaoh During The Time Of Abraham
According to the book of Genesis, the king who was a contemporary of Abraham was called Pharaoh, and this title is used six times in Genesis 1210-20. Three examples are illustrated below?But the Lord inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his house hold because of Abram's wife Sarai.?
?So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said. "Why didn't you tell me she was your wife?"
?Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had.?
2.2 Pharaoh During The Time Of Joseph
According to the book of Genesis, the king who ruled Egypt in Joseph's time was also referred to as Pharaoh. The king is addressed as Pharaoh ninety times. The following examples are take from Genesis 41?So Pharaoh sent for Joseph, and he was quickly brought from the dungeon. When he had shaved and changed his clothes, he came before Pharaoh.?
?Then Joseph said to Pharaoh, "The dreams of Pharaoh are one and the same. God has revealed to Pharaoh what he is about to do."
?Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from Pharaoh's presence and travelled throughout Egypt.?
2.3 Pharaoh During The Time Of Moses
According to the book of Exodus, the king who ruled Egypt in Moses' time was also referred to as Pharaoh. He is addressed as Pharaoh 128 times. Three examples are illustrated below?When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian... ?
?Then the Lord said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet."
?When Pharaoh's horses, chariots and horsemen went into the sea, the Lord brought the waters of the sea back over them, but the Israelites walked through the sea on dry land.?
Thus, for all kings, the contemporaries of Abraham(P), Joseph(P) and Moses(P), the Bible uses the term "Pharaoh" to address the kings of Egypt.
- Quranic Usage Of The Words "King" & "Pharaoh"
Some examples of the usage of the words King and Pharaoh are presented below, and are taken from the stories of Joseph(P) and Moses(P) . No such usage is to be found in the Quranic story of Abraham
3.1 King Of Egypt During The Time Of Joseph
The sovereign who ruled Egypt during Joseph's day is named "King" (Arabic, Malik); whereas the Bible has named him "Pharaoh". The Quran never once addresses this monarch as "Pharaoh"Two examples of the usage of the word King from the story of Joseph( are illustrated below. The Arabic word for King, Malik, is underlined in red in the Arabic text
http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/king1.gif
?The king (of Egypt) said "I do see (in a vision) seven fat cows, whom seven lean ones devour, and seven green ears of corn, and seven (others) withered. O ye chiefs! expound to me my vision, if it be that ye can interpret visions."
http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/king2.gif
?They said "We miss the great beaker of the king; for him who produces it, is (the reward of) a camel-load; I will be bound by it."
Further examples of the usage of the word King during the time of Joseph can be found in the Surah Yusuf. See 1243, 1250, 1254, 1272, 1276
3.2 Pharaoh During The Time Of Moses
As for the king who ruled during the time of Moses(P), the Quran repeatedly calls him Pharaoh (Arabic, Fir'awn). Two examples of the usage of the word Pharaoh during the time of Moses are illustrated below. The Arabic word for Pharaoh, Fir'awn, is underlined in red in the Arabic texthttp//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/king3.gif
?Moses said "O Pharaoh! I am a messenger from the Lord of the Worlds."
http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/king4.gif
?Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant they were a people in sin.?
Further examples of the usage of the word "Pharaoh" during the time of Moses can be found in the following verses
7104-137, 852, 854, 1075-90, 1197, 146, 2024, 2043, 2056, 2060, 2078, 2346, 2610-66, 2712, 283-42, 2939, 3812, 4024-46, 4346-85, 4417, 4431, 5013, 5138-40, 5441-42, 6611, 699, 7315-16, 7917-25, 8518
http//mail.forte.com.au/ahmed/quran/king13.jpg
According to modern linguist research the word "Pharaoh" comes from the Egyptian Per-aa, meaning Great House and originally referred to the palace rather than the king himself. The word was used by the writers of the Old Testament and has since become a widely adopted title for all the Kings of Egypt. However, the Egyptians did not call their ruler "Pharaoh" until the 18th Dynasty (c.1552 - 1295 BC).
In the language of the hieroglyphs, "Pharaoh" was first used to refer to the king during the reign of Amenhophis IV (c.1352-1338 BC). We know that such a designation was correct in the time of Moses but the use of the word Pharaoh in the story of Joseph( is an anachronism, as under the rule of the Hyksos there was no "Pharaoh." Similarly, the events related in Genesis 12 concerning Abraham (c. 2300 BC) could not have occurred in a time when the sovereign of Egypt was called Pharaoh, and this exposes yet another anachronism. In several chapters of Genesis we find the same error. The biblical writers composed their texts under the influences of the knowledge of their time, when the king of Egypt was usually designated as "Pharaoh". The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible explains the reasons of such discrepancies with modern knowledge
The frank attitude toward the stories about Egypt in Genesis and Exodus is that folk memory had retained the essentials of great Hebrew experience but had later clothed that memory with some details imperfectly recollected and some circumstantial details borrowed from later times and conditions.
The situation is entirely different in the Quran. We find mentioned the Egyptian king who was a contemporary of Joseph. For him the Quran uses the title "King" (Arabic, Malik); he is never once addressed as Pharaoh. As for the king who ruled during the time of Moses, the Quran repeatedly calls him Pharaoh (Arabic, Fir'awn).
These facts that we have mentioned were unknown at the time of the Quranic Revelation.
At the time of the Quranic Revelation, the only source of knowledge of the religious past was the Bible. From the time of the Old Testament to the Quran, the only document mankind possessed on these ancient stories was the Bible itself. Furthermore, the knowledge of the Old Egyptian hieroglyphs had been totally forgotten, and no one could read them until the 19th century AD.
These facts must be reflected upon, especially in the face of unfounded allegations that are usually made against the Prophet Muhammad,"the author of the Quran, who largely copied the Bible."
If there was no human knowledge in existence at the time, then from where did the Prophet Muhammad(P) obtain this information? If human factors are unable to account for the changes in the narrations which affected their meaning with regard to modern knowledge, another explanation has be accepted the Quran is a Revelation from God, and that Muhammad(P) is his final Prophet.
?And thus (it is) that We have sent down the Book to thee. So the People of the Book believe therein, as also do some of these (pagan Arabs) and none but Unbelievers reject our signs.?
?And thou (Muhammad) wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.?
?Nay, here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.?
?Yet they say "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say "The signs are indeed with God and I am indeed a clear Warner."
?And is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.?
?Say ?Enough is God for a witness between me and you He knows what is in the heavens and on earth. And it is those who believe in vanities and reject God, that will perish (in the end).?"
And Allah knows best.
Thanks for reading
- Introduction
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Peace AB,
Moses companion was a Human "Nabi" his name was "Al Khadr"
HE WAS NOT AN ANGEL
The switch to plurer is very obvious, it is about Allah and His Nabi "Al Khadr"Any one who can read properly can clearly see that the plural CANNOT be about The God and anyone
- ?And as for the youth, his parents were faithful, so we feared that he would oppress them by his transgression and rejection.?
Does The God fear anything? Of course not.
AB, I think that you can read. However, your ability to see what the passage is saying is clouded by biblical and sectarian fairy tales as obvious from the following
ok bro, when I was 8 years old I was given a present which was a book by a famous egyptian writer named "Ahmed Bahgat" he still writes till this moment in Al Aharm Newspaper in Egypt, the book was about the stpries of the prophets as exctracted from the Quran and also by refering to some biblical sources, the book version was for children but it was so fascinating that when I grew up a little I bough all the books that talk about the story of the prophets including Ibn Kathir, all these books says that this man was a Nabi from the thousands Allah sent to humanity they gave him a name called Al Khadr and they all agreed on that, NONE HAS ARGUED THIS FACT, the Quran did not say his name but it sayd clearly what may incline that Al Khadr was one of those thousands of the Anbiaa
I don't blame you for believing in Such fairy tales as a child as most children believe in fascinating legends like Khodr who turns everything he touches green, the tooth fairy, and Santa Claus. Don't you think that you are now a little old to believe in such childlish nonsense?
By the way, like all writers who are employed by Al-Ahram, Ahmed Bahgat is nothing more than a government employee. Thus, what he writes reflects the government approved established dogma and he is paid to do that, otherwise he would be fired or worse. Of course, only naive people don't know how untruthful Al-Ahram and other government newspapers in Egypt are.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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Peace AB,
peace
Moses companion was a Human "Nabi" his name was "Al Khadr"
HE WAS NOT AN ANGEL
The switch to plurer is very obvious, it is about Allah and His Nabi "Al Khadr"Any one who can read properly can clearly see that the plural CANNOT be about The God and anyone
- ?And as for the youth, his parents were faithful, so we feared that he would oppress them by his transgression and rejection.?
come on, just say your interpetation and stop being sarcastic, now do you read arabic?
Does The God fear anything? Of course not.
really, i didn''t know that, thanks for telling me
AB, I think that you can read. However, your ability to see what the passage is saying is clouded by biblical and sectarian fairy tales as obvious from the following
here we go again, so what is your problem then?, just ignore my crap
ok bro, when I was 8 years old I was given a present which was a book by a famous egyptian writer named "Ahmed Bahgat" he still writes till this moment in Al Aharm Newspaper in Egypt, the book was about the stpries of the prophets as exctracted from the Quran and also by refering to some biblical sources, the book version was for children but it was so fascinating that when I grew up a little I bough all the books that talk about the story of the prophets including Ibn Kathir, all these books says that this man was a Nabi from the thousands Allah sent to humanity they gave him a name called Al Khadr and they all agreed on that, NONE HAS ARGUED THIS FACT, the Quran did not say his name but it sayd clearly what may incline that Al Khadr was one of those thousands of the Anbiaa
I don't blame you for believing in Such fairy tales as a child as most children believe in fascinating legends like Khodr who turns everything he touches green, the tooth fairy, and Santa Claus. Don't you think that you are now a little old to believe in such childlish nonsense?
well i have nothing to say but ignore your rubbish
By the way, like all writers who are employed by Al-Ahram, Ahmed Bahgat is nothing more than a government employee.
who gives a fluke? however I like him anyway
Thus, what he writes reflects the government approved established dogma and he is paid to do that, otherwise he would be fired or worse. Of course, only naive people don't know how untruthful Al-Ahram and other government newspapers in Egypt are.
I donlt give a fluke about Al Ahram as a news
pyramids however I like Ahmed Bahgat the writerPeace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
ok well, i second that
ahmed bahgat
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
IF1
The Kings of Egypt referred to themselves as "Shekem", Pharoah was the name others gave to them.Ahmed
Bro Pharoah is a Title, like President, you know I'm an egtptian and studied the Rgyptian History for years at schoolRespectfully, you may live in Egypt now, but I am referring to the land when it was called Kemet and inhabited by dark skinned Africans (based on DNA testing of mummies). I live in US today and we are taught that columbus discovered America, an obvious lie.
If you study further, you will find that he word "pharoah" means "house", like "House of representatives", the Kings were called "shekem" and is where words like "Sheik" have come from.
Ahmed
regarded themselves as divine in the polytheistic, superstitious religion of ancient Egypt.idolfree1 wrote
Polytheistic according to who? Thats like saying "islam" is polytheistic because of the 99 attributes. It is EXACTLY the same thing.According to themselves bro
No. Maybe according to so called egyptologists. The term "Neber thcer" refers to the Lord of All in that language and that is proof often One God.
the 99 attributes has nothing to do with Islam, it is 99 decription to Allah and the one who said was Allah, now we know Allah is not a human, like Pharaoh
I do not know the correct number but The Most high, the ALL Knowing, etc are the very same "being", just described through different attributes. It is the same with Kemet. Amen Ra is not the "sun God", Ra symbolizes the Life force(ruh) and Amen means "hidden" (Ghayb), so it means hidden life force and is just an attribute of the ONE, same as "islam". I did not understand what you said at the end about pharaoh.
Quote
At a time when the people of Egypt favoured a superstitious belief system over a divine belief system-the same era in which when the Children of Israel were enslaved-Allah sent the Prophet Moses as a messenger to the tribe of Egypt.idolfree1 wrote
No such history exists. No such enslavement has ever been recorded by the people of that time.How do you know?, did you study the Egyptian History ever, or you just had a bit of a read about it?
I study it. Was that your answer? Please show where such enslavement took place.
Being from Egypt today means the same to me as someone beingfrom Mecca trying to say they should have better understanding of "islam". Proof is the deciding factor for me.
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Peace
Moses companion was a Human "Nabi" his name was "Al Khadr"
HE WAS NOT AN ANGEL
The switch to plurer is very obvious, it is about Allah and His Nabi "Al Khadr"
again it has nothing to do with the malaika
did you notice that the pirate (who takes the people ships) was described as being a "Malik", while we know he was a human and a bad one indeed
peace
Khi- Salam. 1st of all the Quran never names the person. Al-khidr is a traditonal name given and nobody knows whether its right. Its even claimed that hes alive going in the favour of him being an angel. The Quran doesnt call al-khidr and angel nor a human. But we can deduce him being an angel because he executed judgements which humans cant. He was also cleverer than Moses, the main Prophet at that time. Nowehere does the Quran call al-khidr a prophet. There are 20 people TERMED prophets in the Quran Aaron and Moses receiving one and ther same scripture. Prophet is a mesenger receiving a scripture thus we have Quran the 19th scripture. This mathematical symmetry is destroyed if al-khidr is to be a prophet. Please read the following very carefully
http//www.submission.org/messenger/prophet.html
http//www.submission.org/Quran-19.html
GOD Bless! -
Peace be upon you Ahmed,
Peace bro
IF1
The Kings of Egypt referred to themselves as "Shekem", Pharoah was the name others gave to them.Ahmed
Bro Pharoah is a Title, like President, you know I'm an egtptian and studied the Rgyptian History for years at schoolRespectfully, you may live in Egypt now, but I am referring to the land when it was called Kemet and inhabited by dark skinned Africans (based on DNA testing of mummies). I live in US today and we are taught that columbus discovered America, an obvious lie.
Bro the egtptian histry is well documeneted and being an egyptian I was forced to study it at schools since my nails were soft
If you study further, you will find that he word "pharoah" means "house", like "House of representatives", the Kings were called "shekem" and is where words like "Sheik" have come from.
mate calling him house will make no sense within the clear arabic context, again I know a guy named 'Shams" would that mean that it is not his name because iut means "Sun"?, of course not, a name is a name and in the Quran Pharaoh was given "Phiron" as a name, now for Firon to mean house or not will make no differnence because it was used as a name of a person or I should say was used to refer to a person
Ahmed
regarded themselves as divine in the polytheistic, superstitious religion of ancient Egypt.idolfree1 wrote
Polytheistic according to who? Thats like saying "islam" is polytheistic because of the 99 attributes. It is EXACTLY the same thing.According to themselves bro
No. Maybe according to so called egyptologists. The term "Neber thcer" refers to the Lord of All in that language and that is proof often One God.
well, I have to agree that we can't know the past 100%, that is why Allah have provided the preserved Quran
the 99 attributes has nothing to do with Islam, it is 99 decription to Allah and the one who said was Allah, now we know Allah is not a human, like Pharaoh
I do not know the correct number but The Most high, the ALL Knowing, etc are the very same "being", just described through different attributes. It is the same with Kemet. Amen Ra is not the "sun God", Ra symbolizes the Life force(ruh) and Amen means "hidden" (Ghayb), so it means hidden life force and is just an attribute of the ONE, same as "islam". I did not understand what you said at the end about pharaoh.
you see the egyptians were flawed since the first prphet sent to then, "Idris" who is also known as the Egyptian King "Ossorise" and because Idris taught the egyptians many things including writing and agriculture, they made hima God, the flaw in the Egyptians is in their blood since BC
for Phiron, I really careless about further info other than which Pharaoh he is and I read many researches and I believe I reached my conclusion regarding who was he.
Quote
At a time when the people of Egypt favoured a superstitious belief system over a divine belief system-the same era in which when the Children of Israel were enslaved-Allah sent the Prophet Moses as a messenger to the tribe of Egypt.idolfree1 wrote
No such history exists. No such enslavement has ever been recorded by the people of that time.bro it is very well known about humans not just the Egyptians, the egyptians made many Pharaohs as gods, like the christiand who made jesus like a god, like the hindu who made some other millions of gods
How do you know?, did you study the Egyptian History ever, or you just had a bit of a read about it?
I study it. Was that your answer? Please show where such enslavement took place.
bro, it was not an answer, I'm just chatting with you, what I said is verfy well documenetd and known an example is "Ossorise" the Egyptian king who was Prophet Idris, also Phiron is another example, it was running in theor blood as far as I believe
Being from Egypt today means the same to me as someone beingfrom Mecca trying to say they should have better understanding of "islam". Proof is the deciding factor for me.
bro what I meant that as being an egyptian child I was forced to study the Pharaoh history for at least 10 years on my study
peace bro
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Peace,
My input is that the person who taught Moses was a human, but was given special abilities (as God says) to determine the course of events.
He was not a prophet (since he received no scripture) nor a messenger (he delivered no message), but he acted in a capacity as God's servant.
My reading also is that he has been alive for some time before Moses (and possibly still is).
