My Thoughts On These Debates So Far
-
SaLaM 2Pac
Before i continue, know this. We have a difference of opinion on this topic. And thats alright. you are a brother to me.
They weren't happy with using the Quran and their own minds on how to run their lives and therefore ran to other books for answers which ended up giving them more problems
They ran to hadiths. That is why they had problem.
You wrote outside source ive highlighted. What outside source are you referring to??All sources come from God don't they?
Anything outside the Quran. So for example, if a group of scientist need to build a rocket, we will have to look outside the Quran to detemine the saftey features, the laws regarding space travel. This is just an example. Or how about vehicles. The laws required to govern the transport system. The saftey, the rules, and all that goes with it. How can you say that if you were the transport manager and asked to write up a book on laws and regulation regarding transports, you will look towards the Quran?
As far as Quran being fully detailed. What is the Quran fully detailed about? Does it explains algebra? Or quantum physics? Or how about e=mc2. Does it explain that? Ofcourse not. Quran is not 'fully detailed'. Quran is only detailed on how to get in good graces of God. Even then Quran says to consult he previous scriptures if in doubt.
We just use our own reasoning and sound judgement God gives us to decide on that instead.
So you would use your sound judgment to determine the punishment to be given to a drunk driver. The punishment for one who is smuggling drugs will also be different. And in these cases, we wont look at the Quran becoz Quran doesnt give monkey's nuts about drunk drivers and drug smugglers. Quran is only concerned about OUR salvation. There is no denying that Quran gives us a moral code to live by. One does not even need the Quran to get in God's good graces. And Quran is not the only book to give us such moral codes. The previous scriptures do the job too, that is if you seperate the BS in there.
The moment when we decide to use our own sound reasoning and judgement to make a law, the whole 'Quran is all i need to run a country' goes out the window. You cant have it both ways.
-
Peace mq, 2pac,
I personally wouldnt get involved in a group where decisions are made democratically. It doesn't work. The best way is to carve out your own domain and rule singly. I await a person who's inspired to follow the book and I will line up behind him, inshaa Allah.
I can understand why of course. On the other hand, and this is the question that has me thinking is, what if he doesn't turn up in our lifetimes? Should we just wait? This entity hasn't turned up in my parents lifetimes either...Why not make a go of it until the man arrives? What would be the ramifications of such a decision? What if there is one person who comes out and is sincere in achieving this objective? In the end, if it comes down to, it just won't work...at least we are trying instead of waiting...maybe thats the process that would help...
Nadia, the thing is, all these questions have been answered. The problem is, some of us simply reject the book. You may think im being harsh or judgemental but im simply looking at the book and looking at personalities and i see the people who claim to believe refusing to refer to Allah and his rasool. The book is so clear about methodology. The question if we submit or we do not.
I agree with you. The thing is, I judge and you judge. I have no problems in judging with empirical evidence...I don't think it was a question about being judgemental, , it was me telling you to stop wasting your time because you were getting riled up and it was not pretty when jackie came into the picture hehe amongst other things...but thats neither here nor there.
Im finding in most topics or posts by people and I'm no exception is that when an opinion is posted or a concept its not backed up by quranic verses and therefore its just like any writing or hadith. If we truly believe Quran is the very word of God then why aren't we posting verses.
I believe due to the nature of this discussion being spread out over several threads, it didn't come into play due to fatigue. The verses were posted in the start, especially in mq's case...many times...
-
I can understand why of course. On the other hand, and this is the question that has me thinking is, what if he doesn't turn up in our lifetimes? Should we just wait? This entity hasn't turned up in my parents lifetimes either...Why not make a go of it until the man arrives? What would be the ramifications of such a decision? What if there is one person who comes out and is sincere in achieving this objective? In the end, if it comes down to, it just won't work...at least we are trying instead of waiting...maybe thats the process that would help...
Oh but Allah sends messengers to every ummah ) so we will get to see messengers in our lifetimes. The question is, will we inadvertently reject him? This is why I was careful with our man Shareef back there. He's ok with linguistics, but I doubt he's a messenger.
I believe due to the nature of this discussion being spread out over several threads, it didn't come into play due to fatigue. The verses were posted in the start, especially in mq's case...many times
To me, this is always an indicative of our alignment with the book, i.e. whatever we say will concord with the ayaat. In the democracy thread, my cyber voice grew hoarse asking for evidence from the book. Its not about flexing your memory muscle ( "i know more ayaat than you") but just trying to keep to the path. Its not easy but it has to be done.
-
Tahira I believe Jaxal has a point. The Quran seems to apply to our emotional, physical and spiritual needs and not for things like driving above the speed limit, or forgetting to get planning permission to build something.
Tahira, can I ask you something Why do people drive over the speed limit?
-
Oh but Allah sends messengers to every ummah so we will get to see messengers in our lifetimes. The question is, will we inadvertently reject him? This is why I was careful with our man Shareef back there. He's ok with linguistics, but I doubt he's a messenger.
Yes, in the general scheme of things I agree with you...that one person who's sincere, it could be anyone in any community...and we can gauge this by how in accord they are with what the reading says...
To me, this is always an indicative of our alignment with the book, i.e. whatever we say will concord with the ayaat. In the democracy thread, my cyber voice grew hoarse asking for evidence from the book. Its not about flexing your memory muscle ( "i know more ayaat than you") but just trying to keep to the path. Its not easy but it has to be done.
Of course...completely agree.
-
Salaam Jaxal!
Ok with that being said how do we explain this verse then;
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
I've highlighted the important parts of this verse. How do you explain this verse then??I'm not trying to be patronising but we can debate about this punishment or that punishment for a particular case but let's go back to the Quran and see what it implies. My understanding of the verse is clear from the underlining of the parts;
GOD IS THE SOURCE OF LAW - Doesn't say what type of law so it would be safe to say it means any kind of law be it social law OR religious(system) law.
QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED - This is the main part we're debating on which is tricky. Obviously it doesn't detail how to punish a specific crime or making a rocket and I do see your point. Are we to just believe the verse or understand it before believing it???In my personal opinion I believe what it says but its hard to explain or understand in what way its fully detailed and I'm still investigating that part. Can anyone else help with this ?
PEACE
-
These threads might help-
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3758&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3725&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
-
Peace,
GOD IS THE SOURCE OF LAW - Doesn't say what type of law so it would be safe to say it means any kind of law be it social law OR religious(system) law.
QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED - This is the main part we're debating on which is tricky. Obviously it doesn't detail how to punish a specific crime or making a rocket and I do see your point. Are we to just believe the verse or understand it before believing it???In my personal opinion I believe what it says but its hard to explain or understand in what way its fully detailed and I'm still investigating that part. Can anyone else help with this
The Scripture is fully detailed as God said. It is fully detailed in all matters that concern our life and guidance (social, legal, spiritual).
All laws to govern a society can be derived from the Scripture using the specific and general guidelines that are provided.
As for how to build a rocket, that is not a part of our 'huda' guidance (social, legal, or spiritual) and therefore it is unrealistic for people to ask that the Scripture provide such details or else it is not detailed as it says!
-
Peace all
The Quran also stated that the Torah had everything explained in it before it got corrupted I guess, here is the verse
"Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord."
(154)
-
Peace,
To my knowledge the quran does not say tauraat was ever corrupted.
Joe
Peace
not explicitly by name yes, but the Quran said that the scriptures sent to the jews was corrupted by their own hand
but regardless of that, I really don't need anyone to tell me if a religious book is corrupt or not, I have a brain and its common sense and I can work it out myself from the content
now I can show you content from those scriptures that are nothing but rubbish by sick men and in no way could have been inspired by Allah
peace
-
Peace,
here is the verse
Sorry that ayat says alkitab/the scripture not altawrat.
Tawrat is not mentioned particularly with Moses. It is among the nabiyeen .
Joe
ok, but the Quran also was called "Kitab"
you see Joe, I don't confuse myself with these sort of too far logics that the Kitab is something else but the Quran
while I agree that Allah may have a liberary of perfect books up there, I really careless about them because He sent me only one of them and He also preserved it and that is what i have to follow
peace
-
Peace,
now I can show you content from those scriptures that are nothing but rubbish by sick men and in no way could have been inspired by Allah
Sorry, I do not equate tawrat with the Torah and Prophets; the Old Testament.
Joe
ok, no need to be sorry but can you elaborate please, and can you explain to me what do you think of the OT and NT?
cheers
-
Peace,
ok, but the Quran also was called "Kitab"
No, quran is what details kitab .
I don't confuse myself with these sort of too far logics that the Kitab is something else but the Quran
Then don't, I do not.
Joe
Joe I will respond to 1037 tomorrow mate, I'm just about going to bed, it is 1215 am
I do believe that the Kitab and the Quran mentioned in 1037 means one thing which is the Quran, what is between Allah hands is totally something else and was not stated as a Kitab, I will elaborate tomorrow
good night
