My Thoughts On These Debates So Far
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Peace mq, 2pac,
I personally wouldnt get involved in a group where decisions are made democratically. It doesn't work. The best way is to carve out your own domain and rule singly. I await a person who's inspired to follow the book and I will line up behind him, inshaa Allah.
I can understand why of course. On the other hand, and this is the question that has me thinking is, what if he doesn't turn up in our lifetimes? Should we just wait? This entity hasn't turned up in my parents lifetimes either...Why not make a go of it until the man arrives? What would be the ramifications of such a decision? What if there is one person who comes out and is sincere in achieving this objective? In the end, if it comes down to, it just won't work...at least we are trying instead of waiting...maybe thats the process that would help...
Nadia, the thing is, all these questions have been answered. The problem is, some of us simply reject the book. You may think im being harsh or judgemental but im simply looking at the book and looking at personalities and i see the people who claim to believe refusing to refer to Allah and his rasool. The book is so clear about methodology. The question if we submit or we do not.
I agree with you. The thing is, I judge and you judge. I have no problems in judging with empirical evidence...I don't think it was a question about being judgemental, , it was me telling you to stop wasting your time because you were getting riled up and it was not pretty when jackie came into the picture hehe amongst other things...but thats neither here nor there.
Im finding in most topics or posts by people and I'm no exception is that when an opinion is posted or a concept its not backed up by quranic verses and therefore its just like any writing or hadith. If we truly believe Quran is the very word of God then why aren't we posting verses.
I believe due to the nature of this discussion being spread out over several threads, it didn't come into play due to fatigue. The verses were posted in the start, especially in mq's case...many times...
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I can understand why of course. On the other hand, and this is the question that has me thinking is, what if he doesn't turn up in our lifetimes? Should we just wait? This entity hasn't turned up in my parents lifetimes either...Why not make a go of it until the man arrives? What would be the ramifications of such a decision? What if there is one person who comes out and is sincere in achieving this objective? In the end, if it comes down to, it just won't work...at least we are trying instead of waiting...maybe thats the process that would help...
Oh but Allah sends messengers to every ummah ) so we will get to see messengers in our lifetimes. The question is, will we inadvertently reject him? This is why I was careful with our man Shareef back there. He's ok with linguistics, but I doubt he's a messenger.
I believe due to the nature of this discussion being spread out over several threads, it didn't come into play due to fatigue. The verses were posted in the start, especially in mq's case...many times
To me, this is always an indicative of our alignment with the book, i.e. whatever we say will concord with the ayaat. In the democracy thread, my cyber voice grew hoarse asking for evidence from the book. Its not about flexing your memory muscle ( "i know more ayaat than you") but just trying to keep to the path. Its not easy but it has to be done.
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Tahira I believe Jaxal has a point. The Quran seems to apply to our emotional, physical and spiritual needs and not for things like driving above the speed limit, or forgetting to get planning permission to build something.
Tahira, can I ask you something Why do people drive over the speed limit?
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Oh but Allah sends messengers to every ummah so we will get to see messengers in our lifetimes. The question is, will we inadvertently reject him? This is why I was careful with our man Shareef back there. He's ok with linguistics, but I doubt he's a messenger.
Yes, in the general scheme of things I agree with you...that one person who's sincere, it could be anyone in any community...and we can gauge this by how in accord they are with what the reading says...
To me, this is always an indicative of our alignment with the book, i.e. whatever we say will concord with the ayaat. In the democracy thread, my cyber voice grew hoarse asking for evidence from the book. Its not about flexing your memory muscle ( "i know more ayaat than you") but just trying to keep to the path. Its not easy but it has to be done.
Of course...completely agree.
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Salaam Jaxal!
Ok with that being said how do we explain this verse then;
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
I've highlighted the important parts of this verse. How do you explain this verse then??I'm not trying to be patronising but we can debate about this punishment or that punishment for a particular case but let's go back to the Quran and see what it implies. My understanding of the verse is clear from the underlining of the parts;
GOD IS THE SOURCE OF LAW - Doesn't say what type of law so it would be safe to say it means any kind of law be it social law OR religious(system) law.
QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED - This is the main part we're debating on which is tricky. Obviously it doesn't detail how to punish a specific crime or making a rocket and I do see your point. Are we to just believe the verse or understand it before believing it???In my personal opinion I believe what it says but its hard to explain or understand in what way its fully detailed and I'm still investigating that part. Can anyone else help with this ?
PEACE
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These threads might help-
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3758&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3725&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Peace,
GOD IS THE SOURCE OF LAW - Doesn't say what type of law so it would be safe to say it means any kind of law be it social law OR religious(system) law.
QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED - This is the main part we're debating on which is tricky. Obviously it doesn't detail how to punish a specific crime or making a rocket and I do see your point. Are we to just believe the verse or understand it before believing it???In my personal opinion I believe what it says but its hard to explain or understand in what way its fully detailed and I'm still investigating that part. Can anyone else help with this
The Scripture is fully detailed as God said. It is fully detailed in all matters that concern our life and guidance (social, legal, spiritual).
All laws to govern a society can be derived from the Scripture using the specific and general guidelines that are provided.
As for how to build a rocket, that is not a part of our 'huda' guidance (social, legal, or spiritual) and therefore it is unrealistic for people to ask that the Scripture provide such details or else it is not detailed as it says!
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Peace all
The Quran also stated that the Torah had everything explained in it before it got corrupted I guess, here is the verse
"Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord."
(154)
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Peace,
To my knowledge the quran does not say tauraat was ever corrupted.
Joe
Peace
not explicitly by name yes, but the Quran said that the scriptures sent to the jews was corrupted by their own hand
but regardless of that, I really don't need anyone to tell me if a religious book is corrupt or not, I have a brain and its common sense and I can work it out myself from the content
now I can show you content from those scriptures that are nothing but rubbish by sick men and in no way could have been inspired by Allah
peace
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Peace,
here is the verse
Sorry that ayat says alkitab/the scripture not altawrat.
Tawrat is not mentioned particularly with Moses. It is among the nabiyeen .
Joe
ok, but the Quran also was called "Kitab"
you see Joe, I don't confuse myself with these sort of too far logics that the Kitab is something else but the Quran
while I agree that Allah may have a liberary of perfect books up there, I really careless about them because He sent me only one of them and He also preserved it and that is what i have to follow
peace
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Peace,
now I can show you content from those scriptures that are nothing but rubbish by sick men and in no way could have been inspired by Allah
Sorry, I do not equate tawrat with the Torah and Prophets; the Old Testament.
Joe
ok, no need to be sorry but can you elaborate please, and can you explain to me what do you think of the OT and NT?
cheers
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Peace,
ok, but the Quran also was called "Kitab"
No, quran is what details kitab .
I don't confuse myself with these sort of too far logics that the Kitab is something else but the Quran
Then don't, I do not.
Joe
Joe I will respond to 1037 tomorrow mate, I'm just about going to bed, it is 1215 am
I do believe that the Kitab and the Quran mentioned in 1037 means one thing which is the Quran, what is between Allah hands is totally something else and was not stated as a Kitab, I will elaborate tomorrow
good night
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Peace,
can you explain to me what do you think of the OT and NT?
I think they're nice books. Sometimes a bore, but I like to read them.
Joe
lol
ok I found them nice too, and I read it a lot in two languages, actuualy in the arabic bible, God is called Allah
good night
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SaLaM 2Pac
GOD IS THE SOURCE OF LAW - Doesn't say what type of law so it would be safe to say it means any kind of law be it social law OR religious(system) law.
Brother in that verse 'a source of law' is the wrong translation.
hakaman is not 'Law'. Its 'to judge'. (can someone tell me a site where i can copy paste the arabic? Transliteration sucks)
There is a differnce between 'law' and 'judge'.
QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED - This is the main part we're debating on which is tricky.
Ok, Quran is fully detailed in what sense? I agree with the 'spiritual' sense. I agree with the 'social sense'. But it is a fact that Quran is not detailed on laws and punishment. I mean what are we all thinking? That we will be living in a society where there is no crime? WE are all peaceful living in mud houses? Ofcourse not. And as time goes on, more crimes will be made known that the Quran does not talk about.
So far all the examples i have given are just handful. Even less that handful. There is so much more where that comes from. And the Quran does not give us detial on how to deal with them. As you said, We have to use our sound reasoning and judgment. And that is not a bad thing. Quran tells us to be fair. Why would it be againt God if we decided how to deal with a situation on which Quran sheds no light? Yes, true, building rockets is not part of our guidance. But never the less, we do it. And there needs to be laws on how to run this secotr.
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Peace,
hakaman is not 'Law'.
It's not necessarily law, no. It is judgement or rule.
God dispenses plenty of judgement in the reading. That is, His opinion on matters; what makes what good, what makes what bad, what path leads to what destination.
Law is a set of rules and regulations. The God of the reading has laid out several rules and standards by which one is expected to live up to, if one were to walk that path that leads to evolution.
Law is the end, judgement is the means.
But it is a fact that Quran is not detailed on laws and punishment. I mean what are we all thinking?
What are you thinking? There are different penalties for different offenses outlined in the reading .
That we will be living in a society where there is no crime?
Only in dreams.
I'm not keen on why you factored this into your reasoning. If you assume living an an enviroment where the judgement of God prevails among the people must be one free of misfits and other making mischief in the land then I think you need to get that cup of coffee and snap out of it.
WE are all peaceful living in mud houses?
Are you serious here? Is this your reasoning?
That would be nice, maybe a house better than mud, but peace would be nice among the peoples.
And as time goes on, more crimes will be made known that the Quran does not talk about.
More crimes? Or are you confusing killing by nuclear weapons with killing by swords, or theft on-line from pit-pocketing on the street? The crimes do not change, only the methods.
Otherwise point out to me a new crime in this past century that never existed before.
Joe
