What does 'islam' mean to you?
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I know the question in not about the meaning of the word Islam which is to submit totally to Allah, however this is exactly how I feel and amazingly this feeling only became evident after I reached 40 years old, i found it very amazing but it is true
peace
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Peace be upon you ProGod,
No, I do agree with you, but only to an extent. We can get to the basics of a word, like "kitaab" being book, but never will the dictionaries lead us to the meaning of Universal Law. This meaning is obtained only by pondering and reflecting. And with words like "hajja",many get caught up on pilgrimmage, which in no way refelcts the usage of that word in this reading.
But I respect your understandings and will agree to disaree on th epoints we cant agree on.
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my salaam,nice topic.first of all for me islam can meen many things,knowing that islam means submission,so any one can be in submission to practically anything without even realising it (money,desires,women,blindy following....etc)Islam is simple but it can also open the door to many temptations without even knowing that we are falling to a trap.The God gave us the ability to choose so therefore we can shape that islam to practically anything we want.Therefore the real islam to me is the way that someone can focuse his or her mind into submitting to The God by obeying only The God,by thinking only about The Gog thru out his or her entire life,this is what i think.(so please correct me if i`m wrong),may The God increase me in knowledge.May peace be with you all.
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islam since joining this forum has meant a very peaceful life. i've long since stopped worrying over hadith or the need to defend my quran alone beliefs. it's just been a very peaceful last few years; praise to Allah.
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Idolfree,
Thanks for the response. The Koran may talk about universal law, but kitaab will never mean that on its own. As for hajja, yeah it can mean 'to reason with someone" (not debate in the sense of baseless arguing) but it can also mean pilgrimage, and that meaning can't be taken away. I believe that the Koran means 'pilgrimage' in most places where it uses the word hajj (not all places) and a physical place of pilgrimage is implied by the Koran. But I know your a mystic, and I know that you will not agree with what I'm saying. So really, I just responded to you because your responded to me. I know when it comes to us it will be nothing but a petty 'tick for tack.' Why? Because ignorance invents its own knowledge when it can't or doesn't want to know better.
Waiting for you 'tack',
Godbless,
ProGod -
Being a non religious type (though extremely spiritual) my honest answer would be that islam means the same to me as any other religion. Taking what I and seemingly most people, see as the obvious way in which to live your life and adding a bunch of laws and punishments, the ultimate reward of heaven and punishment of hell. It is a way to SCARE people into civility.
That being said, I think any religion can be a good stepping stone or guide towards a good path, if used as such and not used as instructions without possibility for waivering.
I think the creator IS at the bone of all religions and that they are all based on the desire of the creator. Perhaps he sent many sons to live among man and teach by EXAMPLE not rule, but ultimately it is up to us to use our greatest gift (free will) to get the most out of life and even more importantly GIVE the most of our life as possible
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
Being a non religious type (though extremely spiritual)
Me too. D
This proclamation(quran) states that the peaceful(al muslimeen) should have nothing to do with SECTS(religion/color of skin/etc).
(6159) Surely those who separated (divided) their order, and were groups/parties(sects) , you are not from them in a thing, but their matter/affair (is) to The God, then He informs them with what they were making/doing.
my honest answer would be that islam means the same to me as any other religion. Taking what I and seemingly most people, see as the obvious way in which to live your life and adding a bunch of laws and punishments, the ultimate reward of heaven and punishment of hell. It is a way to SCARE people into civility.
That would be contradictory to the statements of Peace being our nature, and never despairing. The "garden" and the "fire" are metaphors , not literal places you go to to get punished and rewarded. We punish and reward ourselves by going against or going with LAW that the God put in place. The strongest being the unifying force of life, the same force that has us here discussing this, the same force holding objects together, like our cells, and planets.
The effect you are getting is the years of literal interpretation that has plagued all behavior shaping systems. Re-ligion is the tying back of the person with the God, then we move to a place where those seperate groups come together, spirituality. This is where we start to deal with the spirit(nafs), start breaking it down and making it objective. When things remain subjective we cant agree (hot vs. cold) but when we make it objective (40 degrees), we must agree.
That being said, I think any religion can be a good stepping stone or guide towards a good path, if used as such and not used as instructions without possibility for waivering.
I agree.
I think the creator IS at the bone of all religions and that they are all based on the desire of the creator. Perhaps he sent many sons to live among man and teach by EXAMPLE not rule, but ultimately it is up to us to use our greatest gift (free will) to get the most out of life and even more importantly GIVE the most of our life as possible
I agree. My understanding is that our true identity is consciousness, and willing is what consciousness does, but there is another part of us, the spirit(nafs), which people call the soul, etc. It is the part of us that carries things out. The God creates in pairs, everything has a "yin" and "yang" side to it to. We have to understand that individuals (indivisable-duality) are two parts that complement each other, like day and night, they cannot be divided (when does day and end night begin?), but they are a duality (opposite ends of the ONE).
So we have consciousness that looks out on Spirit(energy/matter) and the job is for the consciousness to WILL the energy/matter to carry out what it wills. This was (and still is) metaphorized as "male" (consciousness/will) and "female" (energy/matter) to show an important thing, you can always WILL something (I want to stop eating the wrong food/stop smoking) but your Spirit(nafs/energy/matter) doesnt always carry that out. Thats because the consiousness has no divisions, it is all of the God(unity), blown(wind/breath) into mankind. The same air that is in your body is the same air in mine, we both enjoy the same SUN, etc. But the Spirit(nafs) has been divided, and is therefore under the LAWS of Energy/matter. Consciousness wills energy into matter. Our thoughts are very powerful, they submit to the intellect of man, except one of course.
The comparison to male and female is that the male can always give his seed, but the famale cannot always except the seed. And this is the same with the Spirit(energy/matter). It is time conditioned. Like the sun(always giving) and the moon(receptive and cyclical). Thats why the phases of the moon are means of telling certian times.
I am probably off topic by now so I will stop.
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This is where we start to deal with the spirit(nafs), start breaking it down and making it objective.
Are spirit logical?
Regards,
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Basically, I supose I believe that the creator sent teachers to different places at different times to lead poeple in times of need, not realizing that man would use his free will to take this information and use it as justification for hurting his fellow man. The words and wisdom sent by the creator, I believe are meant for our own individual need and not to be used in ANY way to inflict our personal interpretation onto others. I suppose this is why, in most cases, I will not begrudge anyone their faith. (that is until they either use it to tell my I am headed to hell or try to convert me into their image of what is right)
Anyway, it's still early for me ( kind of, I have been doing all kinds of Christmas things this morning and I am shot already) so I don't think I am quite making my myself clear, but it's close enough for now
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Hi idolfree1,
The "garden" and the "fire" are metaphors , not literal places you go to to get punished and rewarded. We punish and reward ourselves by going against or going with LAW that the God put in place.
Honestly, ur understanding amazes me. )
Would like ur view on the following
Is ' day of judgement ' a metaphor too?
And r u implying God will not raise all beings to life one day, and have our deeds read out and judge us at all?Peace!
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
idolfree1 wrote
This is where we start to deal with the spirit(nafs), start breaking it down and making it objective.Are spirit logical?
Yes, when you break it down. Take it out of the subjective. When we start to discuss bio kenetic energy. There is a whole science of acupuncture that deals with this. Next time you touch some metal and shock yourself, you get objective evidence. Next time you put a microscope on a cell, you get objective evidence.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
try to convert me into their image of what is right)
Thats the beauty sawtooth of objective evidence, no one has to convert anyone, we just show the evidence, and each can accept or reject. I can show two people who are arguing light vs dark that it is 6pm, there is no rrom for argument of the MEASUREMENT, we use SIGHT, not HEARING to measure. So we use KNOWING vs BELIEF as a rule.
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SaLaM idolfree
Next time you touch some metal and shock yourself, you get objective evidence.
The only evidence you gather then is that dont walk on carpet bare footed. Wear some slippers. If the day of judgement was a metaphore, then God would have said it JUST the way it is. Quran is clear. Unless God is telling us that yea the Day of Judgement is a metaphore. But its not.
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Salaamun alaikum Anwar,
Anwar It is this type of subjectivity that makes the real message incomprehensible. I've said it once and i'll continue to say it. You guys have an invested interest in the word ISLAM to the point where you will define it however you want to. As long as you have that type of loyalty to a word, your loyalty to the truth will never show up.
Interesting. When you say 'it is this type of subjectivity..', you are implying that your own method is objective ? If so, please see below
my questions
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Your method is to see the most authetic dictionaries of Arabic and to filter its meaning therefrom, correct?
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If this was the case, then why do you not accept definitions that
a. as-salaat means 'sectarian ritual prayer'
b. masjidil haraam means 'mosque in centre of mecca' -
If your answer to the above is 'these are obvioulsy not the PRE-quranic meanings', may I ask you what you use as a criteria for history because you obviously know somehow what Muhammad did at a certain period?
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Are the dictionaries which you refer to infallible?
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If the answer is no, what arbitrates the correctness of each dictionary?
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If the answer is yes, what is your evidence of thier infallibility?
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Does al-quraan contribute to the precipitation of meaning of a certain quranic concept?
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How is al-quraan al-furqaan if it itself is subject to the criteria of a dictionary? Shouldn't the dictionaries be then considered al-furqaan?
Many thanks for your attention. As you know, I've a deep respect for your scholarship but the questions above I believe will show that your method is as subjective as the methods (or lack thereof) which you denounced.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
try to convert me into their image of what is right)
Thats the beauty sawtooth of objective evidence, no one has to convert anyone, we just show the evidence, and each can accept or reject. I can show two people who are arguing light vs dark that it is 6pm, there is no rrom for argument of the MEASUREMENT, we use SIGHT, not HEARING to measure. So we use KNOWING vs BELIEF as a rule.
Yes and knowing and belief has lead me down the path I am on, and surely it will lead me further and perhaps change direction now and then. BUT.. It is the path for me and me alone There are billions of people in the world and even more ways to find the right way.
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Peace be upon you Peaceful muslim,
Would like ur view on the following
Is ' day of judgement ' a metaphor too?
The TIME of judgement happens all the time, everytime you get to a crossroad in life and make a choice, you reap what you sow.
And r u implying God will not raise all beings to life one day, and have our deeds read out and judge us at all?
It happens all the time. The God is not some object out there whom we will physcically stand in front of. How can you stand in front of The Omnipresent? No, this is a metaphor about what happens when we make a choice in life and how we will reap what we sow (proper judgment).
This is a RIGHT NOW message, not back then, or someday message, a RIGHT NOW message.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
Yes and knowing and belief has lead me down the path I am on
I was pointing out the difference between knowing and believing. They both have thier place but I am making sure you did not miss that important concept. To "believe" is to not be able to reason something, so we just have to "trust" it will be so. Knowing is when you can reason it out, you can test it, you can verify it. Its very important to understand the difference.
and surely it will lead me further
Knowing definately, believing is hit or miss.
and perhaps change direction now and then. BUT.. It is the path for me and me alone There are billions of people in the world and even more ways to find the right way.
In regards to feeding the poor, what is your path regarding that and then share some other paths that others might have that are also correct. My path involves being at peace, is there another way, another path, besides operating from PEACE, that someone could use to get to the "garden"?
Yes, everyone has thier own experiences, thier own destiny, but the PATH back to the God is the same. ONENESS does not leave room for several paths, it is THE MAINTAINED/STRAIGHT PATH.