evolution!

unknownuser

Hi Ahmed Bahgat,

I should tell u, ur posts are real longgggggggg!
Am gonna split my reply into a
2 posts. Coz it would get real long otherwise.

?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?

Can u tell me who is 'thou' in the above verse?

Prophet Mohammad

ok. Agreed.

Can u also tell me, who is 'they' in the above verse?

all of us

How does prophet mohammed tell 'us' , as in U and me and people living today? How does Prophet Mohammed make clear to us(as in u, me and all living today) those things, in which we differ?

And also tell me, If Hadith was essntial, to understand Quran, why did not Prophet Mohammed instruct his people to write down his instructions?

no sister the hadith is not essential to understand the Quran what the verse says is clearly that the prophet should "Yobian" to us what may be confusing in the Quran. this in effect should be verbal to the people who lived with him,

Is it 'what may be confusing in the quran' or 'the confusion that exsisted amongst people, relating to life in which they differed'?

The prophet once entered on a group of the sahaba and they were documenting his sayings in a book, the prophet was shocked and asked them are you writing my saying in a book that may compete with the Quran, you should not ever do that?, so the sahaba wondered, what they do then, the prophet responded by it is ok to talk about him but it is not ok to write about him, so the sahaba collected what the wrote down and burnt it, this hadith is in the sunni cult hadith book,

Exactly my point. The Prophet Mohammed was a good man who lived his life by Quran and guided people of his times in the problems they faced, according to Quran. He never claimed his own teachings as divine. He helped people of then to find practical solutions for their problems, by using Quran as his guidance. Thats what we need to learn.

now if the prophet prevented documenting his sayings in a book, this suggest to me that we should have verbally inherited what they said about the prophet explaining a few confusing bits in the Quran, this is impossible to be preserved accurately over hundreds of years in which people suppose to just transfer verbally what the prophet said about the confusing bits in the Quran, so I guess it is ok at a certain period after the prophet died to find then analyse what we have regarding the verses of the Quran,

If clarifications for verses in Quran were indeed required, and if the prophet was aware of that, why did he prohibit the writing of the explanation for generations to come, like he instructed Quran to be written down, for future generations? Isnt that indicative enough, that his sayings were not meant to be passed on, but only the Quran?

what we collect i guess should be put on a small book as a mere reference if needed when we differ in a specific Quran verse meaning(s)

let me use an example here. Do u believe that knowledge of human body during the time of the prophet, was the same as now? I mean, do u think they had the knowledge we have today about the human body?
If yes, explain.
If no, why ? Has the human body changed since then? Or is it that we know more through the years, by Allah's will?
To get to the point, Would the same understanding (based on knowledge of the people then) apply to now?

I agree that the problem of authenticating if the prophet said or not will stay as no one can confirm that a dead man said whatever other than Allah, so the heart, mind and freewill will play a great deal in what the individuals accept

Exactly. First, the prophet prohibited the documentation of his sayings. This itself is indicative enough that they were not meant to be passed over.
And these hadith, like u said, were written down after 100's of years after the prophet's death, based on recollection of people on what their great ancestors narrated about what the prophet said, did etc.
Dont u think this is kind of idolising the prophet? He was a human being, a creation of God. But when the hadeeth and sunna tell us that man should grow a beard like him, eat like him, walk like him, arent people idolising the prophet? I am sure he would not have said people to copy him like this, for he was a humble human being

I myself hardly referred to the hadith to understand a few tough verses in the Quran, the toughness was not from the language as I'm fluent in it, rather it was the fact I just could know what the Quran is talking about in a few verses like the beginning of sura 66, I can understand what every Arabic word means, but I could not know the circumstances in why this have happened so I referred to the hadith and as I expected there was many explanation, what i did i accepted the most of explanation that will not the Arabic Quran verses "talking about this specific incident" in fault and the problem was resolved to me.

Unlike some, I do believe some messages were specific to certain specific conditions that exsisted at that time. In that sense, Hadith might be useful, but only if it has some truth in it. Otherwise, we can also use history texts to gain understanding of those verses by relating to conditions that exsisted then. Like polygamy for eg, relating it to battle of uhud makes it more clear, doesnt it?

The corruption of the hadith is evident from the many explanation they claim the prophet said it, I'm sure he said one explanation only to whatever verse caused confusion, but because humans can not be trusted in transferring the word, I believe what the hadith writers did 200 years after the prophet of documented his sayings as it is logically silly to transfer it verbally between hundreds of humans without totally been manipulated as time goes by

Very true! Try telling one single sentence, to one person and tell him to pass it on to others . U would be surprised when u get to know what the sentence has become after it passes to merely 10-20 people. Thats how unauthentic verbal transferring is. Now with hadeeth, we are talking 100's of years and many people.

Those hadith writers fatal mistake though was simply they failed to understand the Quran message in 1664 and the prophet message, they might even did not look at it at all and just resorted to ?Obey Allah and His prophet? verses hence they suggested whatever the prophet say must be obeyed

Obey Allah and Obey Messenger would mean Obey Messenger who is revealing Quran......as in obey Allah by obeying Quran.

Also the order of the prophet ?if he ever said it? that not to put his sayings in a book may be obeyed NOT by the true believers who can under the circumstances of the high possibility of human corruption who suppose to be verbally transferring the hadith explanation regarding a few verses that may cause confusion

???did not understand this ?

If any human managed to understand the Quran without any need of people without knowledge that should be great the point is NO ONE will be able to do that as stated in the Quran

It is stated? Where?

Peace!

unknownuser

Hi Ahmed Bahgat,

In fact sister I have to retreat my many statements that I said in the past about the ease of the Quran, because logically speaking the Quran is not easy to non Arabic speakers at all also to many Arabic speakers, both are part of all humanity that suppose to be the Quran audience, therefore I have to conclude that The Quran is not easy or at least it should not be stated as a general statement

I guess knowing Arabic does help to know what is really written, coz u get to see the verses as they really are.The people who have translated the Quran, have sometimes, added their interpretation of the verses instead of merely translating it. But then, I also understand that even those who do know arabic, have different interpretations of the same verse as well. So, I guess its down to the person reading it, his intelligence, his clarity of vision/thoughts, closed or open mindedness, attitude etc.
The truth is one but when u see it with different visions, the truth is percieved different. So, its not just the arabic language that's a problem to understand Quran's message as it was meant to be.
It like seeing the clear blue sky through normal vision, u see it as it really is. If u see it throgh red glasses, it appears red, and if u see it thorugh black glasses, it appears dark. So, its not the sky that differs but the way we see it.
So, understanding of Quran is down to one's mind, heart and soul and even the QUran says this, doesnt it?

This is obvious sister from the confusion you see from all Muslims educated or not, they all differ in understanding many verses hence the prophet should have explained to us what we differ in understanding the Quran what he said in the past was circumstantial to a few who could not understand a specific bit of a verse, the prophet even may not talked about it at things that caused confusion after his death, so the onus on us to use our hearts, minds, eyes and ears controlled by our freewill to analyse all these info and come to a conclusion on the possibility if the prophet said it or not, the common sense honesty and the free mind of all influences including the voices of devil is so important here,

yeah, like I explained above understanding would definitely differ, based on the person reading it. And we do not have a prophet, today, to correct our understanding. So, its down to each one of us to make an honest effort.
And for referring to hadeeth for clarification, and using our sense, wisdom and knowledge to credit or discredit it accordingly, why not read Quran itself empowered with sense, wisdom and knowledge and understand the verses accordingly. We can dig up history texts from the time of prophet's time period, to understand the condition and life of the people then. History texts would have been better maintained and better preserved, dont u think?
Dont mistake me for being anti hadeeth. I see ur emphasis on understanding Quran's verses with the help of hadeeth, the ones which specifically relate to specific events. I just am not convinced by the authenticity of the hadeeth and there are contradictions among them as well.

The point is sister the Muslims 200 years after the prophet death inherited this problem as well, however their silly solution to document every single word they heard about things that are not religiously sensible and has nothing to do with the quran at all or any confusion in a specific verse, now we inherited this problem and I believe out intellect and experience in life make us qualified to put this great problem into bed with the mother of all solutions that should unite all Muslims under the Quran and one understanding to it

Yeah, how the prophet dressed, what he ate for breakfast, how he stood, how he walked etc are irrelevant details. Copying them is of no purpose to mankind. Infact its more like insulting the prophet himself.
For eg, say u present a very good intellectual speech at a huge international conference, having put all ur best preparation into it after having read and researched a lot, and at the end of ur presentation, when u waiting in anticipation to know how well it was recieved, one person from the audience comes to u, and tells u, that the colour of ur dress looks nice. How gratifying is that? Or a better related example would be people emphasising on 19 Number miracle from Quran or Arabic language miracle from Quran, when thats not the purpose or message of Quran at all.
The prophet stood for righteousness, goodness, faith, strength, humility, and all those values Allah tells us to follow. That is what he ought to be remembered for. And not that he liked green color and that he had a beard etc.

While the solution sound simple, it seems to me that the devil will work even harder to stop it from happening, because he caused it from the first place and his great work as we can see it now will be very hard to be taken of him unless we all believers unite against him, I hope it happens one day sister, and I hope Allah destined to me that I see it in my short life because it really hurts bad to see many Muslims who are following nothing but conjecture, like the sunni and their terrorists, the shite, the ahmadia, the Quran alone, etc etc, they all are divided and some kill the others and this alone exposes them because division is a contradictory to the religion of Islam , there is a lot for me to say sister but I will stop at this for the time being but I would be happy to continue this important discussion with and possibly me and you think of a solution, I already though of many but I would like to hear what solution you may think of not to believe in the hadith or something, consider it you are a consultant and I put this problem for you to solve, what can advice you can give me?

Solution for people to see the truth?
Well, There are a few things that I think are required for people to wake up from their comfort zone of blind beliefs and blind faiths.

fearlessness to think, question and understand.
education and gaining of knowledge in general, coz that opens up the mind.
3.liberation of mind and rational thinking.
understanding/realising that the relationship that really matters is between a being and God.
Understanding God.
If u want me to explain any of these, let me know. But for now, I am leaving it to headings, coz the post is already quite long.

Why was Quran written down immediately while hadeeth was not?

because the hadith according to 1664 should be circumstantial to a specific confusion arose by a specific verse and the prophet prevented putting hin sayings in a book as stated by the hadith itself, now we can overwrite the prophet order under the circumstances of lies and fabrication that started to circulate about him straight after his death and continued to go bigger for the first 200 years of his life until the Ummah decided to document his sayings to solve the huge problem but their solution lacked experience with the weak human nature to submit to the devil, a new solution now is a must for the benefit of all Muslims united.

1664 And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.
The verse says, Allah sent Quran to the prophet with which the prophet could make clear to people, in what they differ. This verse doesnt tell the prophet to further explain Quran with his own words. It merely says, to use Quran, to make clear in what people differ.

Why was there a ban on such writing for 100's of years after his death?

Because according to the hadith the prophet didn?t WANY ANY HUMAN BOOK TO COMPETE WITH THE QURAN, I can show you the hadith if you wish

) I dont want hadeeth for that. I do believe that the prophet's sayings were not meant to be passed on. Coz Its only Quran thats Divine message from God. Nothing else stands in comparison.

And also, according to what u say, would that mean, Hadith are required to explain Quran, since Quran is not clear enough?

nop rather the humans require to educate themselves with all available info to really understand the Arabic Quran so we have to look at what we have and filter it using our eyes, ears, minds and hearts and all for the sake of Allah and His religion that suppose to be a blessing to humanity

History can be better relied on, than the hadeeth, becoz they would have been better recorded. But then again, understanding of Quran does require a clear unbiased vision, and knowledge and wisdom. And this understanding of the verses would grow/get better with time, becoz I think, some verses have a deeper meaning to it. Our understanding is limited to our knowledge. So was the understanding of our great great ancestors who lived back then. Propably, the future generations can understand more intricate details. So, I guess, the understanding is quite relative and limited to our knowledge.

Isnt this contradicting Quran, where in Allah says its has clear messages ?

not at all, and that is what I though wrong as well, I explained to you above that logically speaking the Quran can not be considered easy for any non Arabic speaker, WE CAN SEE THIS CLEARLY, yet not easy for the Arabic speakers and we can also see the zillions of different understandings between all who claim to believe in the Quran including myself,

Ok, Lets analyse this.
People who know arabic yeah, they are likely to know what is really written in those verses. But not necessarily understand. Understanding is down to one's mind, clarity, intelligence, wisdom, experience etc.
People who dont know arabic They rely on translations. And now these translations, may or may not be accurate and most of the time, its the interpretation of the translator that comes across and not necessarily what the verses really are. So, Thats why I say, We need word to word translations of arabic Quran, with all possible dictionary meanings, of every word. Then people can read Quran in their own language and form their own understanding and interpretation, instead of trying to rely on other's interpretation. They can see the actual, real message for themselves, instead of seeing it through another person's eyes.

Well I know what you will do, you will bring a few verses that suppose to be saying this, Sister I was blind not to understand these verses, so please bring them all on the table and I will convince you that there is no such message in the Quran, if the Quran is so easy why we can see all that confusion started 200 years after the death of the prophet and that confusion still going very strong between all of us?

5417 And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
Message saying that the Quran is simple and clear? U r right. There are many verses. Like I said, I do believe Quran is clear , but our vision varies. And that depends on various factors. But no matter what, no one who reads Quran with honesty, can miss the core of the message that there is One God and that we all are asked to live this life righteously and that we are accountable for every deed, on the day of judgement, and accordingly we shall be punished. No one can miss out this message, can they? No matter how the understanding of the miracle verses and other verses differ. Show me one person who reads Quran and misunderstands that our creator is not one, or that he is a son of someone etc. The core is clear, isnt it?

I do believe that the Quran is skightky above average lever for an arabic speaker and furher above that for a non arabic speaker

I kind of disagree. The understanding really depends on the person. But any person with average intelligence can definitely grasp the core of the message. There might be difference in understanding over some mystique, deep verses, and the understanding of those depends on the person. And its not about the language either. I do understand knowing the language helps in knowing what the verses are, but that doesnt necessarily guarantee correct understanding of the verses.
But it would help if people who know arabic translate quran word to word, with all possible meanings of each word, so that a non arabic speaker can read as it is and accquire his own understanding. The lacking of which is responsible for so many different translations in english and much more confusions. Coz very few muslims actually know arabic.

Peace!

jonny_k

Salam bro Bahgat and siter PM,

AhmedBahgat wrote
I myself hardly referred to the hadith to understand a few tough verses in the Quran, the toughness was not from the language as I'm fluent in it, rather it was the fact I just could know what the Quran is talking about in a few verses like the beginning of sura 66, I can understand what every Arabic word means, but I could not know the circumstances in why this have happened so I referred to the hadith and as I expected there was many explanation, what i did i accepted the most of explanation that will not the Arabic Quran verses "talking about this specific incident" in fault and the problem was resolved to me.

Unlike some, I do believe some messages were specific to certain specific conditions that exsisted at that time. In that sense, Hadith might be useful, but only if it has some truth in it. Otherwise, we can also use history texts to gain understanding of those verses by relating to conditions that exsisted then. Like polygamy for eg, relating it to battle of uhud makes it more clear, doesnt it?

JK- This is exactly what RK said too. He was also of the opnion that hadith may be used for HISTORICAL REFERENCE ONLY. So it doesnt conflict with the Quran Alone philosophy at all and i agree with you that some verses refer to a particular time and so did RK and other Quran Aloners. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

at school, you were the WARNER but now it's vice-versa. you see, everybody looks at life differntly, because that's how they grew up and that's how they support their 'thesis statement'. i have a similar theory of evolution which NEVER contradicts the quran. read (265) in the hadith story it has been stated that they died after 'three days' but i think that was the origin of primates ! ? ! ? ! ? that's why science makes sense that's why 'the evidence you told me about in school' makes sense. also whenever god tells you to do/accept somthing he doesn't IMPLY OR 'OH, THE QURAN IS SYMBOLIC BAL.. BLA.. BLA..' no, he tells us directly that' DO NOT TRNSGRESS' but there are discoveries that mankind must use their senses to find out themselves using what they have. and besides, those discoveries will change 'what we hide or conceal at our chests' anyways..... allah implied how he created mankind/evolution in the quran, so it is not IMPERATIVE that he DIVERSIFY JUST BECAUSE WE DON'T AGREE ON EVOLUTION because the theory was implied in the quran so therefore, 'men must not be argumentative.....' we should simply accept like you always have been telling me at school before having introduced to this site.....'be patient, always follow WHAT MAKES SENSE' i shouldn't accuse you for what you think because hay, you have your cause/thesis towards life, and i have mine.........

phoenix1

peace rifat,

Let's say i tell you a story which goes something like this
"i fell from a cliff 50 thousand feet high, hit the ground, and survived" and then i tell you that i sometimes talk in figurative language, and i tell you to use reasoning and verification.
I am the quran (in the above passage). If you use reasoning and logic to understand that story literally, it will make no sense. Yet it does have a meaning. It does make sense.

Zantetsuken

i have a similar theory of evolution which NEVER contradicts the quran. read (265) in the hadith story it has been stated that they died after 'three days' but i think that was the origin of primates )

Hi I'd like to hear more of your theory. How did this mark the beggining of the primates? They were humans before, then God erased humans on earth and allowed them to evolve back to humans eventually?

viartualeye

To the People who think that prayer is not essential to be offered in the direction of Kabbah.

If you are right, then please explain the following verse purpose and context.

002.142
002.142 The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
Al-Qur'an, 002.142 (Al-Baqara )

And to the people who totally reject sunnah, please explain the following verses

002.151
002.151 A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge.

Al-Qur'an, 002.151 (Al-Baqara )

What is the Signs? what is sanctifying ? what is the word Wisdom separate from scripture?
If we just reject everything despite quran, then that sanctifying and Wisdom was only the right of Sahabah?
Either you follow sunnah or tell me the way I can approach to that source of wisdom wich prophet tought despite scripture ( as separately mentioned in quran).

Why Allah did Allah send quran gradually? why not at once in a moment? Was not it the reason that it was to be shown to the people according to contexts? was it? then how can we know about those contexts? through sunnah? no? then what is the source?

003.031
003.031 Say "If ye do love Allah, Follow me Allah will love you and forgive you your sins For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Al-Qur'an, 003.031 (Aal-E-Imran )

What is the meaning of it? (follow me) follow me means follow the khulq (practical way of interperting and practicing quran). What is the need of following prophet's sunnah when we had quran?
Here follow does not mean prophet said that accept to follow quran, here means "Ittibah" "ata'at" "perform".

003.032
003.032 Say "Obey Allah and His Messenger" But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith.

Al-Qur'an, 003.031 (Aal-E-Imran )

Why "AND" his messneger? Has Almighty used some extra words in this verse? (Naoozubi'Allah)

003.164
003.164 Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error.

Al-Qur'an, 003.164 (Aal-E-Imran )

Rehearsing the signs of Allah? why? people would just study and understand themselves ! right? What is the need of prophet to rehearse in front of people. If I should not understand that rehearsal through sunnah, then bring me to that age of prophet(SAW). Can you? .....
Again, scripture and wisdom. Wisdom is the understanding, the interpretation...which nobody could understand than our prophet. So what is that understanding? the "sunnah".

004.113
004.113 But for the Grace of Allah to thee and his Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only Lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. For Allah hath sent down to thee the Book and wisdom and taught thee what thou Knewest not (before) And great is the Grace of Allah unto thee.

Al-Qur'an, 004.113 (An-Nisa )

Plese explain this Allah hath sent down to thee the Book and wisdom and taught thee what thou Knewest not.

062.002
062.002 It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-

Al-Qur'an, 062.002 (Al-Jumua )

What was sanctifying when we would just read the Book. What is instruct in scripture? Obviously Prophet was not mean to just read to them, Prophet(SAW) was "unlettered", then what was instructing of scripture? and what was teaching or wisdom?? Why separate used of two words as "scripture AND wisdom"?

033.021
033.021 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

Al-Qur'an, 033.021 (Al-Ahzab )

Use your So called "intelligence" and logics and explain what is the beautiful pattern for us in this age, which Allah has refered. Was that pattern only for those people in Prophet's age? What our prophet(SAW) only for that age?

002.073
002.073 So We said "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus Allah bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs Perchance ye may understand.

Al-Qur'an, 002.073 (Al-Baqara )

Here only one point is to understand. If there were some unreliable sources of Ahadis and due to some munafiqeen's some fake Ahadis were induced in books then that does not mean that we leave the whole sunnah of prophet (SAW)

May Allah guid the people of astray. Aameen

Sincerely,
VirtualEye

unknownuser

peace zantetsuken,

Quote from "mr. humble"
i have a similar theory of evolution which NEVER contradicts the quran. read (265) in the hadith story it has been stated that they died after 'three days' but i think that was the origin of primates

Hi I'd like to hear more of your theory. How did this mark the beggining of the primates? They were humans before, then God erased humans on earth and allowed them to evolve back to humans eventually?

honestly, i do not have my own theory of evolution. but however, to me, darwinism doesn't make much sense.( that doesn't give you the right to imply that i am pro-creationist ) the truth is we don't know for sure concerning whether it happened or not. but i am pretty sure that the facts from the evolution theory is true, where the theory itself is based on conjecture! this scientific 'method' is similar to the big-bang theory which is also a theory based on 'another theory based on conjecture'. the point i was trying to make at that time wast that primates might have evolved from humans since god's curse was upon them rather than a common ancestor linked backed to pre-primates and hominids. my point was that using scientific evidence, mankind could come up with a bunch of theories... hopefully, my message makes sense... D

phoenix1

peace Rifat,

first of all, scientists don't use the term "theory" like you do. Every theory goes through the same scientific process. What you end up is either a law or a theory. A theory is an explanation of how a law works. For example, it is a law that the planets move around the sun (although some quranic literalists tend to disagree). The theory would be that they move around the sun because of gravity which is the distortion of space-time.
second of all, the only reason you don't like the theory of evolution (regardless of whether it is flawed or not) is because it doesn't agree with your interpretation of a book. If the quran said "Darwin is God," you would believe it.

viartualeye

peace Rifat,

first of all, scientists don't use the term "theory" like you do. Every theory goes through the same scientific process. What you end up is either a law or a theory. A theory is an explanation of how a law works. For example, it is a law that the planets move around the sun (although some quranic literalists tend to disagree). The theory would be that they move around the sun because of gravity which is the distortion of space-time.
second of all, the only reason you don't like the theory of evolution (regardless of whether it is flawed or not) is because it doesn't agree with your interpretation of a book. If the quran said "Darwin is God," you would believe it.

I meant to be harsh on you one comment, but I have to be patient. Why would Quran say Darwin is God? Ask any person who really adores and fears Allah, what kind of wording you are using. Quran gives the logical reasonings and inductions. Quran was the first source containing the method of induction, which is now the base of science. When I say this then you might disagree, but first ask some muslim scholar how Quran gives the induction process, and then object.

There is no difference in accordance of quran and science. The only difference is that when some scientific conclusion or theory (whatever you say) is not in compliance to Quran, the we will belive in quran which is the word of the creator, Whos powers of Math, physics and any other subject is Unlimited. Can somebody say that God does not know about all which human mind has produced? He has already created the things which humans are discovering through science.

If some scientific reasoning concludes something against quran, then we belive that science needs more research, but quran does not need that.

I dont know were this so called proven theory of Darwin comes from. People here on this site can just talke about it. They dont give references.

If some reasoning in science is in compliance to the quranic teachings then it even is the source of strengthening the believers' Faith.

In contrary, if science proves anything against, Either a person will completely belive in the Word of God or otherwise science (not both at the same time). and if you chose to believe in science over the cost of word of god, then I dont have any problem, because you are responsible for you deeds and you are answerable to God for your deeds.

Now about your comment

it is a law that the planets move around the sun (although some quranic literalists tend to disagree).

Dont refer to people to distract the real matter. Refer to the source, exact verses of Quran which in your opinion against current discovery about sun and earth. I will InshaAllah try to gather the answer for you.

viartualeye

These days, i dream about what the world would be like if the muslims valued intellect, logic over wierd stories and long beards.

When Allah has told us in Quran to follow prophet. And whatever prophet says or does, we needed to follow (because it was the reason of coming of prophet to practically show the implementation). When we need to follow then we know prophet had beard. So it is enough for a Believer to have beard as his prophet had.

In other contest, I dont know what problem does create the beard of other people to you. You become blind when the non-muslims chopping the Muslims and doing conspiracies, but you are at the front line against the people having beard.

You believe what US says that such such Muslims are terrorist. That is part of your belief. And you disbelieve what quran says, saying that sciecene disagrees. Did Mr. Bush come to you and showed you the proof of all muslims being terrorists?

You might not have used used so much effort against the killers of millions muslims. But you are at forefront to object muslims. I am sure about it.

phoenix1

peace

You aren't following the "induction process" when you assume that the Quran is the word of God.

unknownuser

peace phoenix1,

phoenix1 wrote

second of all, the only reason you don't like the theory of evolution (regardless of whether it is flawed or not) is because it doesn't agree with your interpretation of a book. If the quran said "Darwin is God," you would believe it.

how would you imply the fact that i would at least accept the theory of evolution if the quran was a book written by charles darwin himself?(the theory itself doesn't make total sense to me is the reason why i accept part of it and reject part of it)...in fact, most scientists doubt the existence of this theory

the reasons why i reject the theory of evolution are

just like science has no explanation for "the process of descending of first being of adam and eve", similarly, assuming the evolution theory is true, no explanation for "the descending of first primate-apelike creature". and that's where the puzzle is, since if we assume from the readings of the quran that god SImply CREATED the first being then EVOLVED us that would rather make a lot more sense... the theory of evolution is nowhere near what i have just stated.
most people, who embrace the theory of evolution are mainly ATHEISTS themselves... i am sorry, but that is an educated hypothesis which i believe to be true.

technically, since the members of this forum question the authority of the quran, then i guess we are pretty much closer to atheists(agnostic)... i highly doubt that it will have a big impact on our life anyway... because your deeds and your decisions are based on your character, which is partly based on what you believe .if you are firm to what you believe then it really doesn't matter whether you are christian or evolutionists or not; nonetheless, the purpose of religion is limited! the purpose of success in life is free for all humans!

peace, rifat

viartualeye

technically, since the members of this forum question the authority of the quran, then i guess we are pretty much closer to atheists(agnostic)... i highly doubt that it will have a big impact on our life anyway... because your deeds and your decisions are based on your character, which is partly based on what you believe .if you are firm to what you believe then it really doesn't matter whether you are christian or evolutionists or not; nonetheless, the purpose of religion is limited! the purpose of success in life is free for all humans!

peace, rifat

Hello Humble,
This actually the reason that sometimes I become a little provocated. That if free-minds would be quran only thinking and having conflict over ahadith then it would be less arguable. But here this has become the den of all the hippy people who just not only want to run from sunnah (in case of quran only) but also want to run from the quranic devinity.

That is why I think that this forum has opened so many "thief doors" for the "Munafiqeen" (non-muslims pretending to be muslims). This is evident because, when there "Munafiqeen" even in the age of prophet then one can think this age is much more violating among muslims, so certainly there must be more munafiqeens and more people of astray.

According to my context, if a person says that he will only believe in the book and not ahadith due to the fact that some ahadith narrated are rediculous, then I object on it. But what can I say about a person who even starts rejecting some parts of Quran.

People keep saying rubbish and crap about fake theories without the proper reference, and all people are appretiating here (even the person is totally on astray) but when some sunni will just try to give some qurani reference about ahadith etc. then every person already is a "Mufti" to reject that in a sudden.

Sincerely,
VirtualEye

unknownuser

nopeace to you "berealisticeye",

THE REASON NO PEACE TO YOU IS BECAUSE YOU ARE CALLING ALL OF US HYPOCRITES! DEFINE HYPOCRITE ONE WHO CONCEALS THE TRUTH WHILE ENGULFING IT IN THEIR 'CHESTS'. DO YOU THINK WE ARE NOT HONEST WITH OURSELVES? MOST PEOPLE WHO COME TO THIS SITE ARE TOTALLY HONEST ABOUT THEMSELVES(INCLUDING MYSELF). IS THAT YOUR DEFINITION OF "MUNAFIQUN"? SURELY, GOD'S CURSE BE UPON THE LIARS AND REJECTERS... DO YOU NOT THINK?

TATA, RIFAT

viartualeye

nopeace to you "berealisticeye",

THE REASON NO PEACE TO YOU IS BECAUSE YOU ARE CALLING ALL OF US HYPOCRITES! DEFINE HYPOCRITE ONE WHO CONCEALS THE TRUTH WHILE ENGULFING IT IN THEIR 'CHESTS'. DO YOU THINK WE ARE NOT HONEST WITH OURSELVES? MOST PEOPLE WHO COME TO THIS SITE ARE TOTALLY HONEST ABOUT THEMSELVES(INCLUDING MYSELF). IS THAT YOUR DEFINITION OF "MUNAFIQUN"? SURELY, GOD'S CURSE BE UPON THE LIARS AND REJECTERS... DO YOU NOT THINK?

TATA, RIFAT

Oh, on fire ? Calm down.

I think you took my comments offensive for you.

I meant to say that there is difference in the opinion of honest people at "quran only" and honest people at "sunni". There are differing according to there understandings and misunderstaings. But what about those people who are getting the shelter of this conflict and even rejecting Quranic verses and some even say solar system and evolution are proved against the quranic verses.

You got my point?

oh, and peace on you (if you are honest).

unknownuser

peace to you to virtualeye,

i see what you are saying. you see, REAL hypocrites are not visible to the typical eye at this society... i apologize for "slapping your face" as a result of misunderstanding... i think the best we could do is remain open, and rememer, if there is a volcano inside (either be me, you,or anyone else's) chest someday he will reveal it and we can then see who the real hypocrite is.. but if that person repents then know that god is forgiver, merciful.

this is my example of a hypocrite "surely those who conceal what we have sent down to them of the clarity and the guidance, after we had made it clear for the people in the scripture; these will be cursed by GOD and be cursed by those who curse"(2159)

i am being honest about this to the best of my knowledge .

peace, rifat

unknownuser

peace phoenix1,

likewise, i typed these keywords in google "islam supports evolution" and here's what i came up with

http//www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=792

what i like about this website is that they are moderate, open-minded and willing to compromise islam for life!

Allah also says O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you with Allah is the one who is the most God-fearing.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) identified the "male" mentioned in this verse as being Adam. He said Human beings are the children of Adam and Adam was created from Earth. Allah says O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you with Allah is the one who is the most God-fearing.

We also see that Allah created Adam directly without the agency of parents.

Allah says The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him Be and he was.

We also know that Eve was created from Adam without the agency of parents.

In the Qur?n, Allah states clearly O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women.

Therefore, the Qur?n tells us that Adam and his wife were the father and mother of all human beings living on the Earth today. We know about this by way of direct revelation from Allah.

phoenix1, at school, you told me that there's no such thing as 'eve' in the quran. ??? ??? ???

The direct creation of Adam (peace be upon him) can neither be confirmed nor denied by science in any way. This is because the creation of Adam (peace be upon him) was a unique and singular historical event. It is a matter of the Unseen and something that science does not have the power to confirm or deny. As a matter of the Unseen, we believe it because Allah informs us about it. We say the same for the miracles mentioned in the Qur?n. Miraculous events, by their very nature, do not conform to scientific laws and their occurrence can neither be confirmed nor denied by science.

this interpretation compromises with the verses of the quran ).

peace, rifat

phoenix1

peace all

The quran mentions Adam and "his companion". It doesnt mention anyone called "desire".
If im wrong please correct me. But it won't change my point. And my point is that the quran contains allegorical passages.
You want to know why people rely on the hadith and scholars and traditions and ignore the quran? Because the quran makes NO sense. It useless. Utterly, utterly useless. Why? because most people take the quran LITERALLY. When you do take these things literally, and believe that mountains are actual pillars and the universe is actually geocentric, and that there are beings called angels and jinns that no one has any proof of ever seeing. If you believe all that, then nothing makes sense. Nothing is verifiable, and the quran becomes contradictory (by telling us to verify and then giving us unbelievably stupid stories that make no sense). And most importantly, the MESSAGE, the LESSON, is lost.
Also, the only reason, Rifat, that evolution doesn't make sense to you is becuase of your interpretation of the quran's story of Adam. You think that because science cannot explain that, science is wrong.

viartualeye

peace all

The quran mentions Adam and "his companion". It doesnt mention anyone called "desire".
If im wrong please correct me. But it won't change my point. And my point is that the quran contains allegorical passages.
You want to know why people rely on the hadith and scholars and traditions and ignore the quran? Because the quran makes NO sense. It useless. Utterly, utterly useless. Why? because most people take the quran LITERALLY. When you do take these things literally, and believe that mountains are actual pillars and the universe is actually geocentric, and that there are beings called angels and jinns that no one has any proof of ever seeing. If you believe all that, then nothing makes sense. Nothing is verifiable, and the quran becomes contradictory (by telling us to verify and then giving us unbelievably stupid stories that make no sense). And most importantly, the MESSAGE, the LESSON, is lost.
Also, the only reason, Rifat, that evolution doesn't make sense to you is becuase of your interpretation of the quran's story of Adam. You think that because science cannot explain that, science is wrong.

Phoenix,

You not only seem to be a non-muslim but the enemy of Islam.
We muslims have been told to not to abuse other religions in front of the people related to those religions.

But I dont what is that worm which does not let you calm down. You keep in abusing quran. If you stupid intelligence cant understand the morals of the incidents narrated in quran then please shutup and to to some trinity site to utter your rubbish.

You better stay here if and only if you have respect for quran.

And who the hell told you that people who follow Ahadith, they deny quran? and they follow something against quran?
The only conflict between quran only and sunni muslims is that quran only muslims say that they will only follow the do's and donts of quran, while sunni muslims say they needed some explanation in the form of ahadith to better understand quran. But even then sunnis dont accept those ahadiths which are contrary to any quranic verse, and they have some doubts about some ahadiths which do not have reliable source or seem to be contrary to quranic teachings. So the only conflict is that "If we need something additional to understand quran better or not".

Now were are you dropped from in this forum, to abuse quran and trying to prove everything with science.

When you do take these things literally, and believe that mountains are actual pillars and the universe is actually geocentric, and that there are beings called angels and jinns that no one has any proof of ever seeing.

Have you seen God through science? then why do you belive? if you dont believe then you are an atheist.

Now about mountains to be pillars, I think your scientific knowledge is very very small and stupid knowledge is huge. It has been prooven through geological science that earth below the mountains is several hundred kilomers more deeper downward to the innner core of earth, on the other hands the non-mountainerian area is much less think.

Now about Jinns, you have not seen jinns right? How about soul? you have not seen. I you believe in the existence of soul(which nobody have seen) then you cant just deny existence of jinns through your reasonings.
Contrary to this, If you do not believe in soul then tell me why a human being which was scientifically same body is just considered to be dead in the next moment. That is the same so called evolutionized body through millions of years(as your belief, not mine) but after death the same body is not working. How come? Did it kept evolving through million years even if uncomplete and suddenly stopped working even if it was totally complete in its complexity?

To add more,,,if you belive to be the human evolved from some ape as darwin, then you better abuse yourself to be son of some ape or dog or whatever you like. But you dont have the right to abuse us. Keep your thinking and apply to yourself.

And most importantly, the MESSAGE, the LESSON, is lost.

Which message you need?

This was the demand of Mushriks in the age or prophet also,,,, they used to ask from prophet if you are a prophet then why there are not angles with you and why did not you suddenly fly towards sky and bring some book etc.
They were also trying to prove everything from their science.

Now despite the facts which I have described about you, try to understand my reasoning also... and you can only disagree if you have some "in born hatered for Islam in your mind".

Sincerely,
Muhammad Usman.