evolution!

[phoenix1]

peace all

The quran mentions Adam and "his companion". It doesnt mention anyone called "desire".
If im wrong please correct me. But it won't change my point. And my point is that the quran contains allegorical passages.
You want to know why people rely on the hadith and scholars and traditions and ignore the quran? Because the quran makes NO sense. It useless. Utterly, utterly useless. Why? because most people take the quran LITERALLY. When you do take these things literally, and believe that mountains are actual pillars and the universe is actually geocentric, and that there are beings called angels and jinns that no one has any proof of ever seeing. If you believe all that, then nothing makes sense. Nothing is verifiable, and the quran becomes contradictory (by telling us to verify and then giving us unbelievably stupid stories that make no sense). And most importantly, the MESSAGE, the LESSON, is lost.
Also, the only reason, Rifat, that evolution doesn't make sense to you is becuase of your interpretation of the quran's story of Adam. You think that because science cannot explain that, science is wrong.

[viartualeye]

peace all

The quran mentions Adam and "his companion". It doesnt mention anyone called "desire".
If im wrong please correct me. But it won't change my point. And my point is that the quran contains allegorical passages.
You want to know why people rely on the hadith and scholars and traditions and ignore the quran? Because the quran makes NO sense. It useless. Utterly, utterly useless. Why? because most people take the quran LITERALLY. When you do take these things literally, and believe that mountains are actual pillars and the universe is actually geocentric, and that there are beings called angels and jinns that no one has any proof of ever seeing. If you believe all that, then nothing makes sense. Nothing is verifiable, and the quran becomes contradictory (by telling us to verify and then giving us unbelievably stupid stories that make no sense). And most importantly, the MESSAGE, the LESSON, is lost.
Also, the only reason, Rifat, that evolution doesn't make sense to you is becuase of your interpretation of the quran's story of Adam. You think that because science cannot explain that, science is wrong.

Phoenix,

You not only seem to be a non-muslim but the enemy of Islam.
We muslims have been told to not to abuse other religions in front of the people related to those religions.

But I dont what is that worm which does not let you calm down. You keep in abusing quran. If you stupid intelligence cant understand the morals of the incidents narrated in quran then please shutup and to to some trinity site to utter your rubbish.

You better stay here if and only if you have respect for quran.

And who the hell told you that people who follow Ahadith, they deny quran? and they follow something against quran?
The only conflict between quran only and sunni muslims is that quran only muslims say that they will only follow the do's and donts of quran, while sunni muslims say they needed some explanation in the form of ahadith to better understand quran. But even then sunnis dont accept those ahadiths which are contrary to any quranic verse, and they have some doubts about some ahadiths which do not have reliable source or seem to be contrary to quranic teachings. So the only conflict is that "If we need something additional to understand quran better or not".

Now were are you dropped from in this forum, to abuse quran and trying to prove everything with science.

When you do take these things literally, and believe that mountains are actual pillars and the universe is actually geocentric, and that there are beings called angels and jinns that no one has any proof of ever seeing.

Have you seen God through science? then why do you belive? if you dont believe then you are an atheist.

Now about mountains to be pillars, I think your scientific knowledge is very very small and stupid knowledge is huge. It has been prooven through geological science that earth below the mountains is several hundred kilomers more deeper downward to the innner core of earth, on the other hands the non-mountainerian area is much less think.

Now about Jinns, you have not seen jinns right? How about soul? you have not seen. I you believe in the existence of soul(which nobody have seen) then you cant just deny existence of jinns through your reasonings.
Contrary to this, If you do not believe in soul then tell me why a human being which was scientifically same body is just considered to be dead in the next moment. That is the same so called evolutionized body through millions of years(as your belief, not mine) but after death the same body is not working. How come? Did it kept evolving through million years even if uncomplete and suddenly stopped working even if it was totally complete in its complexity?

To add more,,,if you belive to be the human evolved from some ape as darwin, then you better abuse yourself to be son of some ape or dog or whatever you like. But you dont have the right to abuse us. Keep your thinking and apply to yourself.

And most importantly, the MESSAGE, the LESSON, is lost.

Which message you need?

This was the demand of Mushriks in the age or prophet also,,,, they used to ask from prophet if you are a prophet then why there are not angles with you and why did not you suddenly fly towards sky and bring some book etc.
They were also trying to prove everything from their science.

Now despite the facts which I have described about you, try to understand my reasoning also... and you can only disagree if you have some "in born hatered for Islam in your mind".

Sincerely,
Muhammad Usman.

[phoenix1]

Now about mountains to be pillars, I think your scientific knowledge is very very small and stupid knowledge is huge. It has been prooven through geological science that earth below the mountains is several hundred kilomers more deeper downward to the innner core of earth, on the other hands the non-mountainerian area is much less think.

peace virtualeye,
by saying that, you proved my point. If you take the 'mountains being pillars' part literally, then it makes no sense. Everyone knows what pillars look like and the mountains don't look like pillars to anyone. So that means that maybe the quran is using the word "pillar" a bit differently. Although this is probably not the best example, you can see that there are deeper meanings to the things in the quran when we look. If we do take things literally, then they sometimes make no sense.
Take for example all those miracles mentioned in the quran. You believe them because you have "faith" in the quran. But to someone who hasn't read the quran, and isn't a muslim, they are stupid stories.
Furthermore, using the scientific method mentioned in the quran, you can never prove these stories to be true. So is that a contradiction??
It would be if the quran ever claimed that these stories are true. But i don't think it does.
So it doesn't matter where these stories took place and who they involved as long as we get the message it is trying to convey. And that message can only be seen if we look for symbols and the deeper meaning.
Hope you are getting my point, and agreeing with me because these are just simple facts based on logic.

[phoenix1]

As for my position on the quran, i am in no way against it. It is a great book (just as it claims to be).
In The Da Vinci Code, someone (Langdon i think) says " the bible wasn't sent from God by fax."
The same is true for the quran. It is a man made book. Inspired by God (who is everywhere), but still man made. It has a few too many flaws (and they might not be flaws at all but for now that's what i know) to be directly 'dictated' by God.
I don't believe God talks in words, let alone arabic. God talks to us through nature, through our conscience. Without those two things, the quran is nothing. We can live a good life without any scripture telling us what to do. But the quran makes it easy for us by teaching us a few things about life. We must take them, and move on. It's a great book. I have respect for it and it's teachings, i just cannot accept the fact (atleast not yet) that it is from God. God doesn't give us a book, he gives us this world and means to study it. We must use those means (our senses and our mind) to find the truth.
So what exactly is the quran?
i believe it is the thoughts of Muhammad. Either written down by him or his followers. The Quran is the Hadith of the prophet. It is his interpretation of this world.

Right now, this is what i think i know. It wasn't too long ago that i started this thread, so i'm still 16, still a junior in high school. I've got a lot to do. You know, do homework, study for tests, get good grades, go to college, get a job, get married, etc etc. I have (hopefully) my whole life ahead of me.
So maybe i am mistaken on some points. I know some of my thoughts are inaccurate (although not wrong). This is what i know based on whatever time i have after i'm done with worrying about all those things i have to worry about. So maybe when i'm retired (early of course) i can devote most of my time doing research and meditating on this subject. Then maybe i'll have the answer. Right now, i think i'm on the right track, but i havn't figured it our yet.

[viartualeye]

Now about mountains to be pillars, I think your scientific knowledge is very very small and stupid knowledge is huge. It has been prooven through geological science that earth below the mountains is several hundred kilomers more deeper downward to the innner core of earth, on the other hands the non-mountainerian area is much less think.

peace virtualeye,
by saying that, you proved my point. If you take the 'mountains being pillars' part literally, then it makes no sense. Everyone knows what pillars look like and the mountains don't look like pillars to anyone. So that means that maybe the quran is using the word "pillar" a bit differently. Although this is probably not the best example, you can see that there are deeper meanings to the things in the quran when we look. If we do take things literally, then they sometimes make no sense.
Take for example all those miracles mentioned in the quran. You believe them because you have "faith" in the quran. But to someone who hasn't read the quran, and isn't a muslim, they are stupid stories.
Furthermore, using the scientific method mentioned in the quran, you can never prove these stories to be true. So is that a contradiction??
It would be if the quran ever claimed that these stories are true. But i don't think it does.
So it doesn't matter where these stories took place and who they involved as long as we get the message it is trying to convey. And that message can only be seen if we look for symbols and the deeper meaning.
Hope you are getting my point, and agreeing with me because these are just simple facts based on logic.

You used the word pillars so I expalined that. Infact in arabic its something different,, which means something like "anchors" or something like peg. ( I am not very good in English vocabulary, but I know in my language). There are some nails used to hold the tents (now you might know what is that nail called).

And also, if somebody needs the evidence why the Quran is word of god then I am here to provide , but I cant guarantee to some obnoxious person to accept that, because it depends upon the blessing of our Creator that somebody understands or remains at astray.

Now if you leave the stories part which you say you cant approve. There are evidences which are proven by your science and scientists are stunned to see (no matter some convert to Islam and some remain same, but they accept that it must be revealed by God, otherwise no human could write these predictions without the revelation of God).

You are very fast in claiming that this book is written by man. We give a lot of evidences to prove this book the word of God. But what evidence do you have to prove it a human creation? just calling that it contains stupid storied?

Calling stories to be stupid or not may be conflict between believers and non-blievers. But where is your science to disprove the facts which we say these are predicitons coming true after 1400 years?

And try to point out where do you see stupidity in stories, instead of making yourself compulsory for the curse of God.

One more thing, if you believe that Quran is word of some human, then where is the real word of God? Are you atheist?
Did the God create whole billions of complexities and then forgot to reveal his word?

These are the first verses of our Holy book for the people like you

001.001
001.001 In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

002.001
002.001 Alif, Lam, Mim.

002.002
002.002 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

002.003
002.003 Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

002.004
002.004 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

002.005
002.005 They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

002.006
002.006 As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

002.007
002.007 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

002.008
002.008 Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.

002.009
002.009 Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

002.010
002.010 In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

002.011
002.011 When it is said to them "Make not mischief on the earth," they say "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

002.012
002.012 Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

002.013
002.013 When it is said to them "Believe as the others believe" They say "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.

Al-Qur'an, 002.001-013 (Al-Baqara )

[viartualeye]

Right now, this is what i think i know. It wasn't too long ago that i started this thread, so i'm still 16, still a junior in high school. I've got a lot to do. You know, do homework, study for tests, get good grades, go to college, get a job, get married, etc etc. I have (hopefully) my whole life ahead of me.
So maybe i am mistaken on some points. I know some of my thoughts are inaccurate (although not wrong). This is what i know based on whatever time i have after i'm done with worrying about all those things i have to worry about. So maybe when i'm retired (early of course) i can devote most of my time doing research and meditating on this subject. Then maybe i'll have the answer. Right now, i think i'm on the right track, but i havn't figured it our yet.

This is the only positive point you gave, that you are not yet so mature in understanding and hope that you maybe more mature in thinking in future. So let be happening, till then dont disgrace anything which you believe to be wrong. Its better to stay neutral if you dont know enough about something or are suspicious, instaed of calling out the words wich may never return afterwards.

I was considerting you to be some aged person in his 20s or 30s, so I took it more solid. But since you are a teen yet, so I can guess that you will learn more in future.

Just keep in mind that there are dozens of scientists who found a lot of quranic predictions to be true in current age, but still all did not embrace Islam. So its not very new that you study quran and say this this and this good and still I dont believe.

Before giving your opinions on this book. Please take some time to have a look at this presentation in detail

http//www.harunyahya.com/presentation/miraclesofthequran/index.html

Then you are MOST welcome if you have questions. I will be happy to collect the answers of them. But please dont simply say the word like "stupid" about the book.
This is same as if you intensely love your parents and I say your parents are good but they are stupid (while you are sure that they are not stupid). Certainly you will be heart. Will you?.... So consider our position to be much more than that, because we do not only love our Holy book and God but we adore it.

I hope you understand.

[arnoldyasin]

Peace,

God mentions in the Quran, mankind was created from clay. I remembered one of my DNA-classes, during my Biochemistry study. Our teacher showed that the most accepted theory is, that after the forming of the first bigger carbon-molecules in water. A part of those molecules was gathered on the edges of the puddles. The substance surrounding those puddles were most likely a sort of clay-particles still found today around small ponds and lakes that resembles the early puddles were the first carbon-molecules were formed.

My teacher just said out loud;"We were made from clay..."

Only in those clay-particles is the enviroment perfect for the forming of Amino-acids, where from Dna-strings can form. There has not been found a single better explanation in Biochemistry that gives the answer how Amino-acids could have been formed, because UV-radiation destroys complex molecules in water. The clay-particles form a stable condition that takes away the UV-radiation, but still recieves the warmth from the sun to giver higher vibrations for molecules to interact. And that the carbonmolecules get mixed up with clay-particles is a logical result, being the clay surrounding the puddles, and through molecules movement (osmosis) mixing with the water and what the water contains.

The Quran confirms evolution in a precise matter, as it also does with the evolvement of an embryo, and all other scientifical facts present in the Quran. Yes, sometimes the Quran uses symbolic language, but mostly it uses direct and precise explanations of natural facts.

To me, Adam and his wife do resemble the first communities, as it uses sometimes plural forms. Also 'paradise' refers to our state of mind, not the mythological heaven of the Greek-Egyptians, that corrupted the Abrahamic faiths. We translate it with the english word heaven, which comes from the Roman-Greek Christians, while the Quran uses the word "djenna", which means the 'garden we can't see'. Gehenna, what we translate as the Greek-Roman Christian word hell, is an old valley near Jerusalem where people used to be sacrificed to their idols, so again symbolic language used. Paradise and Hell are not physical places, but states of mind, where by Paradise means following the Truth as represented here by the Quran itself and other known facts of Theology, science and history. Hell represents lies, illusions, anything that burns away truth, peace and progress of humanity. The Quran explains Djenna as progress, growth, forever bliss, as refering to the growth of understanding of Reality.
Gehenna is also explained as Jahim, which means barrier, as meaning stopping growth understanding of the truth.

Jinns, comes from the root that means, something not seen. In the Quran , the word Jinn, doesn't always mean one exact thing. It depends on the verses, but mostly refer to humans that live out of sight of normal civilisation or are not directly part of it. So by the contexts it can mean, highly intelligent people, nomads, people living in jungles and so on, people who work behind the scenes in politics, emotions/ego that we don't notice and so on.

Satan, is hebrew for rebel, as also iblis comes from greek origins meaning rebel. And refers to our ego, bad/selfish desires that will destroy us and provoke us to do wrong things. Satan also became a Jinn, something we don't see, we don't notice. Most people are unaware of their desires ruling them.

The word for angel in the Quran is mailika, which means, the ones in control, the word angel is by thus a wrong translation, as this refers to the mythological creatures that originated from the Egyptians, and were by the Greeks introduced to the Christian thinking, and later on adopted in Islam. The malika in the Quran refers mostly to forces of nature, from lightning to any power or law, that 'protects' us. Also it is known in Quantum physics, that the energy field that forms matter, records/remembers anything we do or say or even think, and by thus refers to the malika that records our deeds. Also through these energy 'levels' could have the revelations been transferred.

There is not one thing in the Quran, that disagree with science, logic or reason. The only thing that disagrees is our understanding of the Quran, and the understanding that we don't translate the words and meanings correctly, but use understandings from mythology and polytheistic faiths that corrupted the monotheistic understanding.

Peace

[unknownuser]

Peace phoenix1. I consider you to be a very intelligent,open-minded,articulate and humble poster,with great and original ideas... For your age i find you to be at 'genius' level. At 16 i wasnt even remotely as 'in the know' as you. Dont be discouraged by negative comments or accusations from certain posters...If you meditate and ponder over yourself and the world you will continue on your straight path and can develop even more. I wish you well in your life,studies etc...we need more young people like you.
Keep up the excellent work and take care. ps; you are practical proof that a few years genuine pondering of reality with ones god-given natural inner conscience, is worth more than a thousand years of literal,narrow book study. ) )

[unknownuser]

peace arnoldyasin,

what you have stated in your 'evolution' post will certainly help me with my research in the quran. i strongly encourage you to stay in this forum. may god bless you...

Peace,

God mentions in the Quran, mankind was created from clay. I remembered one of my DNA-classes, during my Biochemistry study. Our teacher showed that the most accepted theory is, that after the forming of the first bigger carbon-molecules in water. A part of those molecules was gathered on the edges of the puddles. The substance surrounding those puddles were most likely a sort of clay-particles still found today around small ponds and lakes that resembles the early puddles were the first carbon-molecules were formed.

My teacher just said out loud;"We were made from clay..."

Only in those clay-particles is the enviroment perfect for the forming of Amino-acids, where from Dna-strings can form. There has not been found a single better explanation in Biochemistry that gives the answer how Amino-acids could have been formed, because UV-radiation destroys complex molecules in water. The clay-particles form a stable condition that takes away the UV-radiation, but still recieves the warmth from the sun to giver higher vibrations for molecules to interact. And that the carbonmolecules get mixed up with clay-particles is a logical result, being the clay surrounding the puddles, and through molecules movement (osmosis) mixing with the water and what the water contains.

The Quran confirms evolution in a precise matter, as it also does with the evolvement of an embryo, and all other scientifical facts present in the Quran. Yes, sometimes the Quran uses symbolic language, but mostly it uses direct and precise explanations of natural facts.

To me, Adam and his wife do resemble the first communities, as it uses sometimes plural forms. Also 'paradise' refers to our state of mind, not the mythological heaven of the Greek-Egyptians, that corrupted the Abrahamic faiths. We translate it with the english word heaven, which comes from the Roman-Greek Christians, while the Quran uses the word "djenna", which means the 'garden we can't see'. Gehenna, what we translate as the Greek-Roman Christian word hell, is an old valley near Jerusalem where people used to be sacrificed to their idols, so again symbolic language used. Paradise and Hell are not physical places, but states of mind, where by Paradise means following the Truth as represented here by the Quran itself and other known facts of Theology, science and history. Hell represents lies, illusions, anything that burns away truth, peace and progress of humanity. The Quran explains Djenna as progress, growth, forever bliss, as refering to the growth of understanding of Reality.
Gehenna is also explained as Jahim, which means barrier, as meaning stopping growth understanding of the truth.

Jinns, comes from the root that means, something not seen. In the Quran , the word Jinn, doesn't always mean one exact thing. It depends on the verses, but mostly refer to humans that live out of sight of normal civilisation or are not directly part of it. So by the contexts it can mean, highly intelligent people, nomads, people living in jungles and so on, people who work behind the scenes in politics, emotions/ego that we don't notice and so on.

Satan, is hebrew for rebel, as also iblis comes from greek origins meaning rebel. And refers to our ego, bad/selfish desires that will destroy us and provoke us to do wrong things. Satan also became a Jinn, something we don't see, we don't notice. Most people are unaware of their desires ruling them.

The word for angel in the Quran is mailika, which means, the ones in control, the word angel is by thus a wrong translation, as this refers to the mythological creatures that originated from the Egyptians, and were by the Greeks introduced to the Christian thinking, and later on adopted in Islam. The malika in the Quran refers mostly to forces of nature, from lightning to any power or law, that 'protects' us. Also it is known in Quantum physics, that the energy field that forms matter, records/remembers anything we do or say or even think, and by thus refers to the malika that records our deeds. Also through these energy 'levels' could have the revelations been transferred.

There is not one thing in the Quran, that disagree with science, logic or reason. The only thing that disagrees is our understanding of the Quran, and the understanding that we don't translate the words and meanings correctly, but use understandings from mythology and polytheistic faiths that corrupted the monotheistic understanding.

Peace

does the same principal apply to our understanding of salat? judgement day? the ant story? the ayat 37 did not make much sense before but now it does )

"he is the one who sent down to you the scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the scripture; anad others which are similar. as for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. but none know its interpretation except GOD and those who are well founded in knowledge, they say "we believe in it, all is from our lord." and none will remember except the people of understanding." (3

to tell you the truth, because everyone interprets the quran literally, 'hidden' misconceptions are among all of us at this forum(that's why i have stated the sunni ideology could supercede this forum ideology ) in my previous post).

peace, rifat

[unknownuser]

peace phoenix1,

you are absolutely correct! i refused to accept this theory because from my interpretations of the quran and sunnism, it does not match! by the way, i bought the book "the origin of species" by charles darwin for extra-curricular study on this topic.

i simply accept all the evolutionary facts... they are true and no doubt concerning the examples we have today(scientific evidence). because the debate between the evolutionists and the creationists(muslim and christian fundamentalists) are both so strong(equally matched) i just simply cannot accept the theory... this theory does not answer ALL the necessary questions;nonetheless, i accept part of it because it explains the laws of life in general of existent species.

i was asked some of the questions concerning evolution though

1. this theory does not explain why different races are in existence among us.

2. simply, the theory does not explain how creation began on earth.

peace, rifat

[arnoldyasin]

Salaam, mr. Humble.

Thank you, for your comment.
Quote
does the same principal apply to our understanding of salat? judgement day? the ant story? the ayat 37 did not make much sense before but now it does.

Salat=contact. It depends on the context of the verse what it means. So it can mean, keeping contact with God, through prayer and reading Quran AND especially through following the Quran, by applying its laws in our society and life. Next to that does salat refer to contact with fellow acceptors of Reality.
And in some verses, it applies to prayer as well and following the Quran. So by my opinion, there are 2 prayers in the Quran, 1 gathering of fellow thinkers(salat al-jummah) and for the rest its refers to following the Quran and reading it.

Judgement day, is the day you die, and get confronted with the truth, but you will not understand what is happening if you live in your own made illusion(gehenna=destroyer of logic,truth,peace,reason), because your understanding is blocked(jahim=barrier), but you will know that something is not right, you will know your trapped, and in this way you will be brought into the next creation, and you will not escape your illusion, as long as God wants to, but this law applies as well in this life as the next. Sometimes the afterlife, refers to tommorrow/the future and/or the next life, which is also proven by science to be true. Judgement day is when our conciousness(nafs=Self) will return to a state where it will see the truth, and it will understand the truths we need to grow further. I'm still working on how exactly the Quran explains it, so give me a bit time on this. See the link for the scientific explanation on resurrection

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0

I'm trying to put together all these things i told here, in one article, so Godwilling in time i get it finished.

And the story of the ants and the bird is simple if people would have looked a bit further. Since words have more then one meaning it is interresting what people choose sometimes, and have a distorted idea of a meaning. The arabic naml, means ants, BUT was also the name of a tribe in Syria, even ibn Kathir who is so wrong on 80% of his explanations on the Quran, has this one right. In his tafseer, he indentifies, namlat, the lady of Naml, as belonging to the tribe of Banu Shisan. So it is the tribe that was scared of Solomon's army, which is logical. Also on the story of the 'bird' that comes in the verses after that, the arabic word hud-hud, means hoopoe, BUT again was also the name of a South Yemen tribe, and men were often named after their tribes as well as birds. Tair is commocly used for birds, but is also applied to winged beings, yet tayyar means fleet-flooted horse, and at-tairan is methaphorically used for marching to jihad. When Solomon says that they had been thaught the language of tair, he uses the word mantiq which is used for HUMAN speech, and man alone of all created beings is called haivani-natiq, speaking animal, the language of birds is called saut. The intention behind the use of tair, as of jinn cannot be disregarded. The Tair were a conquered tribe or race and David and Solomon had knowledge of their language. Similarly jinns applies here to the nomadic tribes many of whom were recruited by the king of Tyre for Solomon, see the Bible, chapter Kings 1,5. Hud-hud here is significant because it is known in old records that it was the name of a prince of Midian in the days of Solomon, and some records say he was even the brother of the queen of Sheba. It was by the hand of Hud-hud that brought the letter to Sheba, and he was the one who brought the throne to Solomon, here we have to understand that in the Quran, all the thrones mentioned is used symbolic, as with the Throne of God, meaning the Power of God, same is here, where Solomon was brought knowledge about the 'power', or as to say how her goverment, how her power was in her kingdom. This is also with the throne of Yousouf, where he put his parents on, they were honered by living in luxery through Yousouf's power in Egypt, and they bowed for him, meaning out of respect.

The Quran contains no nonsense or contradictions, and never goes against logic or science. So if you doubt something just ask...

And about the book origins of species, bring it back to the store. It is outdated like hell. I can recommend for you better books, like from Micheal Behe's Intelligent Design, and Bill Bryson's A Short History of Everything. Darwin's book was good 150 years ago, but we have moved on much further. I don't always have time to write lenghty replies, so pleas msn me.

Here is one of the professors in Biochemistry
DONALD E. INGBER, who holds B.A., M.A., M.Phil., M.D. and Ph.D. degrees from Yale University, is an associate professor of pathology at Harvard Medical School and a research associate in the departments of surgery and pathology at Children's Hospital in Boston.

And his short words in a long article

Researchers now think biological evolution began in layers of clay, rather than in the primordial sea. Interestingly, clay is itself a porous network of atoms arranged geodesically within octahedral and tetrahedral forms. But because these octahedra and tetrahedra are not closely packed, they retain the ability to move and slide relative to one another. This flexibility apparently allows clay to catalyze many chemical reactions, including ones that may have produced the first molecular building blocks of organic life.

And i have a lot more on this subject from Dutch scientists.

Peace

[viartualeye]

this theory does not answer ALL the necessary questions;nonetheless, i accept part of it because it explains the laws of life in general of existent species.

i was asked some of the questions concerning evolution though

1. this theory does not explain why different races are in existence among us.

2. simply, the theory does not explain how creation began on earth.

You saw the theory and believed it immediately no matter it is said by darwin. Now that is your faith.

When quran says something the people bring out thousand doubts and objections.
To these kind of ugly thinkers Hazrat Darwin must be prophet but sayings prophet can not be accepted because that will be idolism. While accepting "THEORIES" of their Hazrat Darwin is acceptable and is not idolism.

nice.
really nice.

[phoenix1]

peace all,

i think some of you have misunderstood my position on the quran. Again, i don't think, by any means, that the quran is stupid. It is a great book.
What i said was that some stories in the quran, when taken literally, appear to make no sense. It is not until we look for a deeper meaning that they start to make sense to us and we learn from them. That's what i meant.
The quran is a great book, we've seen enough proof of that, but what i can't prove right now is that it came directly from God. I don't know that (but i am leaning away from that understanding).
What i do know is that God's True message is not any book, but it is this world. His creation, Himself.
The only reason the quran, or any book, makes sense to us is because we can put it against this creation and verify what it says. But what comes first is this world. Not what some book says.
Just think. What if some people destroyed every copy of the quran on this planet. Mankind will be lost, right?
wrong.

Virtualeye, this universe, and it's laws are God's message. The quran is based upon those laws.

And enquirer, thanks for the kind words. Whatever i am it's because of the help and encouragement i get from people like you. So thanks for that too.

[phoenix1]

peace arnoldyasin,
thanks for the link.
The quran says that everything was made from water!
that's true isn't it?
The quran is an amazing book.
That still doesn't change my position, though.
I think Muhammad reached a state of enlightenment only few can. He was a prophet. What he preached to others what he discovered. Just like Jesus had done before him.

[unknownuser]

peace phoenix1 and all. phoenix1 your analysis of your position on the book is very eloquent,and i agree with nearly all of it. Im sure idol-free and many others have reached similiar conclusions. Many times i try to give feedback on posts that i find enlightened,so that we can get more input and encourage ourself and others to strive for truth...
peace all.

[phoenix1]

You saw the theory and believed it immediately no matter it is said by darwin. Now that is your faith.

When quran says something the people bring out thousand doubts and objections.
To these kind of ugly thinkers Hazrat Darwin must be prophet but sayings prophet can not be accepted because that will be idolism. While accepting "THEORIES" of their Hazrat Darwin is acceptable and is not idolism.

nice.
really nice.

peace virtualeye,
i would call you the most closed minded person on earth. But it just happens that i know a few who are worse than you.
It seems your purpose on this forum is to refute every single thing said by everyone here without actually understanding their position.
No one here has rejected any prophet. And no one blindly accepts darwin as something of a saint.
The theory of evolution was created using the scientific method that you say is mentioned in the quran.
See, the problem with people like you is that when something agrees with your interpretation of the quran, you endorse it. When it doesn't, you reject it.
Science finds out that the universe is expanding. Every muslims scholar in the world goes "look! the quran says the same exact thing here! we are a great people!"
When science discovers evolution, their reaction is"look! the quran says exactly the opposite. science is evil!"
I can bet you a million dollars that you know that if the quran said "Darwin is a prophet," you would blindly accept it without ever knowing who or what Darwin was.

http//science.howstuffworks.com/evolution.htm
here's a great article on evolution. hopefully it'll make more sense to you now. Just think, everyone here follows the quran, yet half the people say evolution is true. have you ever thought why they would think that. Have you ever tried to find out the reason behind the thinking of others?

[phoenix1]

peace all

The INVENTION MACHINE. Uses NATURAL SELECTION to invent things!
http//www.popsci.com/popsci/science/0e13af26862ba010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

[arnoldyasin]

Peace,

Phoenix, God says that all living organisms are made from water, and this is true, water and clay, the first carbon-molecules in water, the larger molecules in clay.

2130. Do not these unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, then We split them and made every living thing from water? Will they not believe even then?

2131. God created every moving thing from water One crawls on its belly, one walks on two legs, another moves on four. God creates whatsoever He will. Indeed God has power over everything.

2132. It is He who created man from water, then gave him consanguinity and affinity. Your Lord is omnipotent.

2133. Man We fashioned from fermented clay dried tingling hard,

2134. But when your Lord said to the angels "I am verily going to create a human being from fermented clay dried tingling hard;

2135. "How could I bow," said he, "before a mortal whom You created from fermented clay dried tingling hard?"

2136. Who made all things He created excellent; and first fashioned man from clay,

2137. He created man of fermented clay dried tinkling hard like earthen ware,

Here is an comment by one of Holland's important scholars, Professor dr. Stephen B.J.Menken, Chief Evolutionbiologist of Amsterdam University

"With the making of the first step to the primal soup which contains all basicelements for life to a living organism, we stumble upon a lot of problems. One of the problems is the UV-radiation of the sun. We are protected by our skin and the earth's ozonlayer from the worst radiation. The young earth didn't have a protecting ozonlayer, so the UV-radiation reached freely the atmosphere and the top waterlayers. A second problem is that the most simple organic substances can move in all directions in a watery substance. For life to emerge, it is necassery that the substances remain together, a third problem is the sensitivity of DNA and RNA, mainly the carbonic-sugars, which brake apart easy.

There must have happened two things will the substances of the primal soup evolve to something more complicating, to life. The substances must remain together and protected against harmfull influences from outside. The second most important theory is that of the clayparticles. These particles are common on earth. They're layered, smaller then two micrometre and can bind all organic molecules and make them react with each other. On the surface of the clayparticles, can by example, RNA been build up from simple molecules. Next to that, enhance the clayparticles, the forming of fatty-acids, in which an enviroment can evolve which is seperated from the outside world. The walls of every cell, of plants, animals and fungies, are build up out of double layered fatty-acids. In a solution of fatty-acids together with clayparticles, bindings emerge of double layered fatty-acids. If on the surface of the inclosed clayparticles, molecules get 'stuck', this can be most important for the origins of life, then by this theory can we explain the build of the primitive cell."

As you can see, first the water played its part, and secondly clay. This theorized by non-religious scientists. Can this be a coincidence???????? Hell no!

But life didn't emerge through what we call is evolution, but what we can rather call, intelligent design. Since all the factors that must be present to create these possibilities are so precise, it is impossible that mere chance was involved. Everything was already calculated, that everything would be the exact circumstances, at the exact moments. The number of chance is so great, they're still trying to put together all the numbers of chance, of matter forming, spreading at the right speed, solarsystems,suns and planets emerging, right distance of suns and planets for life, ozonlayer for higher development, balanced animal-plant life, right age of the planet, balance of water and oxigen and so on. The number is so great, the Noble prize winner, the Dutch Professor dr. Martinus.J.G.Veltman, Chief Physicsts of Theoritical Physics of Amsterdam University and Noble prizewinner of Physics 1999, says

"Nowadays, most people believe in the evolution theory of Darwin. This is a gigantic, beautiful theory, but to mine opinion there is one major problem with it; it is just fantasticaly impropable. The existence of humans with brains, with a computer in its head, is by mine view through blind evolution hard to accept. That is like the question; What is the chance, that if you pile up a bunch of old rusty metal, and a computer will come out? The propability that the molecules will arrange itself on the exact sequence, driven by circumstances, is impropable small."

So it is Intelligent design you have to focus on, together with Quantum physics, that are giving me, the most beautifull answers, that coincide perfectly with the Quran and logic. We have to loose the mythology, i believe everything can be grasped by our conciousness except God itself. Resurrection, next life, gehenna, djenna, jinns, malika, 'miracles' of the prophets, can all be explained by history as with science. Just like i explained above with the talking to birds and ants. Also like the healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, showen that people distorte the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.

Like i will say again and again, the Quran is perfect and contains no non-sense, contradictions, and is more then a wise book, it is the word from God, because Muhammed could have never known all these scientifical and historical facts. And it never goes against reason, like the prophet was never married to more then one woman, as nikaa doesn't mean marriage, but contract, and thus the four 'wives' and the 'wives' of the prophet, refer to social contracts, to take the women under your care because their husbands were killed, and so the responsibility of taking care of the women and children fall under the wealthier muslims, till the women find new husbands.

Peace

[unknownuser]

Peace arnoldyasin. Your idea of nikah(commonly translated as marriage.) being a social contract of the rich men to look after women who have lost their husbands is very interesting and sounds very plausible...Any more elaboration?

[arnoldyasin]

Peace,

Yes, i will give an example on verse 2432-33 i translated together with another brother.

First we look at Nikaa meaning marriage/combining/mixing/contract/covenant/joining

BaGhA'a (as also in 1920 Bagyyaa) meaning
Sought for or after, desired, endeavored to find and take and get (good or evil)
Loving or affecting a thing
Acting wrongfully, injuriously or tyrannically
Seeking or endeavoring to act corruptingly, wrongly and/or unjustly, insolent/disobedient
Exceeding due bounds or just limits in any way
Not right, proper or fit
Prostitute or adulteress, unchaste

Tahasanun
HaSadNun
To be well fortified
to strengthen
to immunize
to secure
to strengthen one's position
to be secure
be protected
And TaHaSadNun
securing
safeguarding
protection
protectedness
See
Hans Wehr - A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic - Edited by J. Milton Cowan (Third Edition)(183)
Furthermore, Abu Fazl and Lanes hold similar ideas on the issue of Hasuna (Ha,Sad,Nun) Giving
to fortify
to secure
to structure (a palace)

Malakat
coming from the word MaLaK
kingdom or realm

AyManukum
oath/pledge

Ma malakat aymanukum what is under your guardianship/oath

We can translate the verse from marriage point of view

"And combine/marry/bring together off those among you who are single/solitary, and from the virtious/good/righteous among your male and female servants/subordinates/workers. If they are poor/in need, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

And let those who are not able to find a combination(match)/not able to marry, continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those (women) under your oath/authorization/guardianship seek marriage/rights, then marry them off/give them their rights if you find they are ready/deserve it, and give them from the wealth of God which he has bestowed on you. and don't compel/drive/force your daughters/your women/young women into something that goes beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, if they wish/desire to structure their own 'palace'(life)/protect their own 'palace'(life).
Or
and don't compel your daughters/your young women into something beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own ways of strengthening their position.
Or
And don't compel your daughters/young women (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).

In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides (from the consequences of such mischievous plans).(2432-33)

"Hayatud Dunya" has been presented to be so by Abu Fazl in his Urdu Dictionary in Urdu words as follows "Fawri Aaish", I have translated above the meaning given by Abu Fazl in Urdu to English to be "Immediate enjoyments".
God is the one who "covers them from the consequences of the plans" and "provides them", Ghafuur=
God is the one who "protects" and "provides" .Ghafuur even means "the one who protects" (Refer Gharibul Quran - Abu Fazl)(page.292). Raheem even means "the one who provides" (Refer Lughatul Quran and Gharibul Quran notes on "Rahma&quot

In the first version it is to combine the single people, so they can find a partner in love, and don't just pick out the rich. Combine the rich and poor to get a balanced society, where equality rules. And God will help them all grow then. And if they can't find a good combination yet, let them wait, and don't fall into illicit acts. And if you are a trustee/responsible over people under your care, that can mean from daughters to anyone under your authority/guardianship, then if they are ready, let them get married if they want, and help them get started. And don't force the daughters/women into situations were they feel they are being treated with unjust, things that go beyond their wishes, their permission, let them fill in their own lives. Let them decide on their own, how they want to develope. So this can apply to choice of education, husband, work, and so on. Just to please your or a family, or to uphold a tradition, or to gratify your wishes and plans you had with them, let those expectations go. Let them be individuals is what this verse tells us. Because God will protect them against the consequences of your plans.

Or if you see Nikaa in a social 'help' contract.
This is what you can see if you approach Nikaa in a social way

a) Life in a Quranic system is more social where none would be left solitary. This verse urges the Social programmers to work on providing a strong family structure for these solitaries this may be through marriage or without it. Such is because such solitaries may be a child, a lady, a woman, or even elderly citizens residing in the city.b) Quran wants various classes of the society to come forward and show their enthusiasm in helping these solitaries find their a better life.c) Quran even emphasizes that those with limited means aren't ignored in this call. This is because, there are chances that they may have something to give to some which others may not. So, let this call be generally for all, whosoever feels that he/she is well in a position to fulfill it.

2432
So get the solitaries, the solitaries of society together, combine with them/form social contracts with them, wether you are rich or poor, the virtious, and God will grant them from His Bounty. God is Encompassing, Knowledgable.

a) To continue, after going through the responsibilities of the contract (case to case) if one feels that he may not be able to do it, then let him refrain from proceeding with it. One shouldn't be demotivated for being in such a state; it is hope that takes one to the top, if one has the will to learn and strive in getting what he aims at in ways better and productive.
b) I believe that one is more a kind of Trustee when it comes for handling "Ma Malakat Aymanukum". Thus, giving back the trust to the right owners is quite important. So, of those who have responsibilities pertaining "Ma malakat Aymanukum" based on some stipulated contract, should spend of what they own of theirs if requested when it comes for establishing them in their desirable objectives. However, in case, the trustee is more worthy of defining the limits of spending then be it so.
c) Last but not the least, having had given such right to the trustees it doesn't mean that they poke nose and press things to a level that individuals tend to have nothing of their personal identity or say a opinion or even an objective regarding their future. One should understand that it is they who have to decide what they would have to do and that the job of the trustee is to guide them. So, if those under the shade of the trustee particularly the young women wish to strengthen their life in their own independent ways (this may or may not be about marriage) then they should be given all the more utilities to work on it. Let not the gliterring present deceive you in giving them their due rights.

2433
And let those who can't find a good combination (to give social help or to find social help), then refrain from it till God helps you, enriches you. And if those who are under your guardianship (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) seek their own rights (Kitaab) then give them once you believe that they deserve it and provide them with the means that God had provided you with.And don't compel/drive/force the people under your guardianship(contract) on you into something (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/doing them injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).
In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides (from the consequences of such mischievous plans).

So in these interpretations, that both fit perfectly, you get two most important ideas/laws/directions. One protecting women/youths/people under guardianship, and the other to drive people to help social solitary people to get back on their feet.

When you approach the Quran, you must do that from a logical, non-mythology, non-time related thinking.
This is the best key, that gives the most logical explantions.

Peace