the reading(quran) is not the title of any book
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Hi el-aziz,
The words of the Koran are the words of man. They are written by men thus there's nothing that can guarantee them being other than that.
OK, From What U wrote, I understand u believe Quran is written by a man and is no way special in its own and can be compared to any other literature by man. Do correct me incase I have misunderstood.
And also, have u read the book called Quran and how much of it do u agree with?
Can I also know ur religious faith/belief, if any?but I?m confident that ?qur??n? inside the Koran does not refer to the book itself, but the call or proclamation that is to be remembered with the help of this book.
What do u mean?
Peace!
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Hi all,
i dont agree with your idea .
Can I ask you (and I'm not being ironic)...have you been doing any thinking of your own, or are you controlled by common interpretations of books as the Koran?
in the light of the Koran . without it , i was blind .
Its quite the opposite for me.
I saw and thought, and thus realised Quran.Peace!
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Peace be upon you Ahmed,
Thanks for sharing that story, but what does it support?
Peace mate
it supports 1788
ie. if the Quran is human words as some confused muslims/non muslims think then the challenge 1788 should have been met at least once in 1400 years
so I'm showing the others who know nothing about the arabic language, how the Quran can not be inimitaded using its original langauge and by top arabic language experts
HENCE IT IS THE EXACT WORDS OF ALLAH AND CAN NOT BE HUMAN AS THE QURAN STATED IN 1788
I still have a few trial by aome arabic language talents and their failure to create somthing like the Arabic Quran
all those following ideas based on the English Quran are most liely flawed 100%
peace
I really don't get it. What is it in your opinion that proves that this supposedly impossible challenge is the word of God and nothing else?
I'm sorry bro that you can't seeit, possibly because you are not a native arabic speaker hence you don't know exactly what the structure of this langugae is, possibly you know about the root thingy which "as I said before" is good enough for primary schools, it is obvious that this root thingy is so novice because it deals with words only and not context or sentenses
back to our point about the arabic Quran, the Quran came with a few builtin challenge as you know. I don't think a human writer writes a book and claim in it that no (human/jinn/fake god) will be able to write something like it, i guess this human writer will be an idiot if he included something like this in his book
we also never heard a human caliming that the Quran is his/her work, only one entity claimed that it is his work and that entity is Allah, hence we have to take that challenge in the Quran very serious indeed
that challenge is not for the non arabic speakers neither it is for the average arabic speakers, it is for the best of the best in the arabic language and what I'm showing here is the tries of the best of the best and how drastically they failed, did you read "Al Elephant" by Musa;iamah the liar above, lol
It is clear to me that you totally ignored this challenge in the Quran, I understand that this challnege will sound nothing much to you as a non arabic speaker so I'm trying to show you/others that this challenge is never met by the top Arabic speakers starting from the time of the prophet
in fact in my generation there was a TOP ARABIC WRITER named "Taha Hussain" he was blind but was a top arabic language expert and his work is taught at schoools in Egypt, that man looked at the Quran challenge and admitted that in no way he can write something like this and he never did, he said that after it was suggested that "Taha Hussain" can do it., he is dead now and he never did it.
Right, I heard you. But what is this supposed challenge about?
As you know, I don't agree that "this qur'?n" would aim at the book. But let's just pretend it would...It is very smart when writing a book to claim that it is of God, since no one is able to distinguish and define God. No one ever has for certain. Never! So this claim cannot be verified nor denied for certain. So this assertion pretty much hovers in the air.
Now you tell me about what a man cannot produce that the Koran has...
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Peace,
My translation at first sight would read something like ?and the messenger says ?my Lord, my people has forsaken this call/proclamation??. There?s nothing really implying that it would refer to the book where this scenario is being painted.
I believe that no doubt the messenger called/proclaimed to his people all that was commanded of him. But his call/proclamation was written down in a book form to be remembered for generations to take heed on. Once in a book form, in cannot be a "call or a proclamation" by verbal speech, but by reading. Keeping in mind that every book on earth has a recognition by its title, hence, this very book being an Arabic one, was given the same title of Quran in Arabic, which you see it as a call/proclamation. It is not necessary for any book to testify and authenticate its' title/name within its own contents. Besides, I sincerely doubt that anyone on earth has either come across or changed the name/title of this book, other than what IT IS.....The Quran.
?and I don?t believe that this refers to something that has occured but is actually happening. I don?t mind a book having a title to be recognized by, but I?m confident that ?qur??n? inside the Koran does not refer to the book itself, but the call or proclamation that is to be remembered with the help of this book.
Your concern is within the context of my statement in bold above and emphasis on the part underlined.
The call does not fit in any book, but the whatever book (such as the Koran) may very well speak of the call, not actually reproducing it or giving account for it in words that can be typed with ink.
The account of what has been verbally proclaimed had been recorded and written down in a book form and this very proclamation is given the title of ?whatever book? as Quran.
Let me ask you this, el-Aziz Do you think that this book should have never been written simply because it was a call/proclamation? Now that it?s written and already given a title, what would you suggest the name of this book should have been and why?
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Peace Ahmed,
Hey danish
sorry about the clash we had when I joined, i just didn't know you, neither you knew me however I started to sense the many wisdom in your words
thanks bro
Alhamdu lillah. No worries Ahmed and thank you for those kind words.
Remember, there will always remain differences of some sort amongst the most akin and only if they could see through each others' eyes which would make up for their differences.
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i dont agree with your idea .
Can I ask you (and I'm not being ironic)...have you been doing any thinking of your own, or are you controlled by common interpretations of books as the Koran?
in the light of the Koran . without it , i was blind .
You know what defines a blind person? One that cannot see. One that has lost his eye sight.
So here's my question, are you blind or seeing as as you say you cannot see using your very own eyes, the ones that were given to you by God?without the koran , i couldnt see the right path . my eyes didnt tell me the difference between right and wrong . i had no criterion to distinguish .
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i dont agree with your idea .
Can I ask you (and I'm not being ironic)...have you been doing any thinking of your own, or are you controlled by common interpretations of books as the Koran?
in the light of the Koran . without it , i was blind .
You know what defines a blind person? One that cannot see. One that has lost his eye sight.
So here's my question, are you blind or seeing as as you say you cannot see using your very own eyes, the ones that were given to you by God?without the koran , i couldnt see the right path . my eyes didnt tell me the difference between right and wrong . i had no criterion to distinguish .
With Koran alone, would you be able to see the right path??
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Peace all my brothers and sisters,
First of all, I would like to say this is really a very interesting discussion that will open our mind and let us see how far do we really understand what is given to us. Its interesting to see how some of the people believe that the "Koran" (The book) is from god and it explains everything..
We take this ayat as an example
"We have created the human from a seed that is mixed, We test him, so We made him hear and see." - 763
Take this scenario, you never go to science class or anything, you don't know anything about "sperm" or biology..and I handled you the ayat above...would that make any sense to you?? I mean does it explain anything to you??I don't think so...
So in order to understand that, you do a research, you go to Biology class and got to know what "sperm" is and finally, you are able to understand/"verify" the meaning of the ayat.
Then, you ask yourself, who is actually explaining everything? the Koran or you are the one who explained eveything yourself by doing a research on the law of the universe??
So, what is the Koran (the book) that we are reading for?
Well, IMO...its a book that was written by a human being to tell the people about the knowledge that he was given by god...It can be right or wrong, but if its really from god then, it is the "truth"..So how to know whether the "knowledge" that he shared with us is really from god?Back to our scenario,
when a mystic, a scientist or anyone found the truth, (In this example they "understand" about the sperm etc..They are indirectly "confirming/verifying" the "knowledge" of the past that is written in this "Koran" (book)...
I hope that the explaination above will be helpful in undestanding this topic..Anyway, don't limit yourself by thinking that you already found the "truth"..To think that way is no different as to think the same way as the Traditional Muslim who believe that they have found the "truth"....Keep on asking yourself question and never keep any doubt inside you..and God is Great....You will find the answer one day...
D
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Right, I heard you. But what is this supposed challenge about?
As you know, I don't agree that "this qur'?n" would aim at the book. But let's just pretend it would...It is very smart when writing a book to claim that it is of God, since no one is able to distinguish and define God. No one ever has for certain. Never! So this claim cannot be verified nor denied for certain. So this assertion pretty much hovers in the air.
Now you tell me about what a man cannot produce that the Koran has...
Firstly sorry for not seeing your comment, i just saw it now while going through the thread again,
well that challenge was listed about 3 to 4 times in the Quran, hence it is highly stressed, you should know that the Arabs 1425 years ago were talented in the Arabic language "there was no street language as we see it today as such during their time", they were also very talented in poetry and some of Abu Allaa Al Meari ?another one who tried to create something a sura like the Quran but failed? are taught in schools in Egypt. anyway the facts of the trials are documented if you want to read about it, the important point that should not be missed is this
When Allah send prophets to humans, we notice that He sent them supported by miracles that are sort of what the people receiving the message are already talented in, for example Moses was supported by Miracles that looked like magic, his people were talented in magic and believed hard in it, same with Jesus, his people were talented in medicine discoveries hence he was like a doctor healing sick humans, with Mohammad case, Allah decided that His last message will also be the miracle and clearly challenged any one to simulate something written like the Quran
We read in the Quran the following verses
13- ?Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.?
14- ?But if they do not answer you, then know that it is revealed by Allah's knowledge and that there is no god but He; will you then submit??
(13)
(14)-> Hence the ones who say the Quran is human made are not really saying something new, we read in 1113 that they said the same to Mohammad, ? Or, do they say He has forged it.?, then Allah is telling Mohammad to tell them the following ? Say Then bring ten forged chapters like it?, this is a mighty reply by Allah, it is like this ?If you think Mohammad forged the Quran then why not you show us 10 forged chapters like it??, this verse was said to a bunch of Arabs who were already talented in the language however IT STUN THEM BIG TIMES, Allah even advised them to ? and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.? , well possibly for 1400 years they didn?t listen to this advice or do you think whoever say the Quran was forged by a human, is not truthful?
-> In 1114, Allah is telling us if those who they took the challenge fail to produce 10 chapters like it then we should know ?But if they do not answer you, then know that it is revealed by Allah's knowledge and that there is no god but He;?, amazingly for 1425 years while the above challenge is never met, people still arguing that the Quran is human made. Well, Allah is telling those humans ?will you then submit??
-> Possibly the 10 chapters are too much?, come on, I believe they are allowed to make up 10 small ones like sura 112, not like sura 2, but Allah knows what we can do and our max abilities hence He decreased the challenge to JUST ONE SURA
?And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.?
(23)
-> We can clearly read above about the same people who claim the Quran is forged and is humans made, ?And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it?, JUST ONE SURA LIKE IT, yet Allah is also advising them to ?and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.? let me say this again bro, possibly for 1400 years they didn?t listen to this advice or do you think whoever say the Quran was forged by a human, is not truthful?
The challenge to make a sura like a sura in the Quran was repeated
37- ?And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.?
38- ?Or do they say He has forged it? Say Then bring a chapter like this and invite whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.
(37)
(3And again
33- ?Or do they say He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe.?
34- ?Then let them bring an announcement like it if they are truthful.?
(33)
(34)Can you see mate how ?it if they are truthful.? was repeated in all verses, and for 1425 years no one proved to be truthful that humans can make the like of the Arabic Quran, they only talk conjecture indeed
Then the whole thing is concluded in the verse I posted in an earlier comment including the outcome
"If the whole of mankind and the jinn were to gather together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed each other up."
(8
-> What clearer message about the outcome of the Quran challenges than this ? they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed each other up.?, well if we look at this fact by our God logically we can see that it stands true for 1425 years, therefore it has to be Allah true words, unless you can create a sura like it?, I tried indeed to write something rimes like the Quran and I failed, the reason I failed is simply the challenge is too hard for my Arabic knowledge
Explaining the challenge in details
To begin with; the Arabic language and Arab speech are divided into two branches. One of them is rhymed poetry. It is a speech with metre and rhyme, which means every line of it ends upon a definite letter, which is called the 'rhyme'. This rhymed poetry is again divided into metres or what is called as al-Bihar, literally meaning 'The Seas'. This is so called because of the way the poetry moves according to the rhythmic patterns. There are sixteen al-Bihar; at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Wafir, al-Kamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafif, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madid, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab and as-Saria'. Each one rhymes differently. For metres of Arabic poetry please see please see Lyall's book Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic. He discusses al-Kamil, al-Wafir, al-Hajaz, at-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Khafif and al-Madid briefly.The other branch of Arabic speech is prose, that is non-metrical speech. The prose may be a rhymed prose. Rhymed prose consists of cola ending on the same rhyme throughout, or of sentences rhymed in pairs. This is called "rhymed prose" or saj. Prose may also be straight prose (mursal). In straight prose, the speech goes on and is not divided in cola, but is continued straight through without any divisions, either of rhyme or of anything else. Prose is employed in sermons and prayers and in speeches intended to encourage or frighten the masses. One of the most famous speeches involving saj is that of Hajjaj bin Yusuf in his first deputation in Iraq in post-Islamic and Quss bin Sa'idah in pre-Islamic times.
So, the challenge, as cAbdur Rahim Green mentions, is to produce in Arabic , three lines, that do not fall into one of these sixteen al-Bihar, that is not rhyming prose, nor like the speech of soothsayers, and not normal speech, that it should contain at least a comprehensible meaning and rhetoric, i.e. not gobbledygook.
The Quran is not verse, but it is rhythmic. The rhythm of some verses resemble the regularity of saj, and both are rhymed, while some verses have a similarity to Rajaz in its vigour and rapidity. But it was recognized by Quraysh critics to belong to neither one nor the other category.
It is interesting to know that all the pre-Islam and post-Islamic poetry collected by Louis Cheikho falls in the above sixteen metres or al-Bihar. Indeed the pagans of Mecca repeated accuse Prophet Muhammad for being a forger, a soothsayer etc. The Arabs who were at the pinnacle of their poetry and prose during the time of revelation of the Quran could not even produce the smallest surah of its like. The Quran's form did not fit into any of the above mentioned categories. It was this that made the Quran inimitable, and left the pagan Arabs at a loss as to how they might combat it as Alqama bin cAbd al-Manaf confirmed when he addressed their leaders, the Quraysh
Oh Quraish, a new calamity has befallen you. Mohammed was a young man the most liked among you, most truthful in speech, and most trustworthy, until, when you saw gray hairs on his temple, and he brought you his message, you said that he was a sorcerer, but he is not, for we seen such people and their spitting and their knots; you said, a diviner, but we have seen such people and their behavior, and we have heard their rhymes; you said a soothsayer, but he is not a soothsayer, for we have heard their rhymes; and you said a poet, but he is not a poet, for we have heard all kinds of poetry; you said he was possessed, but he is not for we have seen the possessed, and he shows no signs of their gasping and whispering and delirium. Oh men of Quraish, look to your affairs, for by Allah a serious thing has befallen you.
References
-> C J Lyall, Translations Of Ancient Arabian Poetry, Chiefly Pre-Islamic, Williams & Norgate Ltd., London, 1930.-> Ibid., pp. xlv-lii.
-> Ibn Khaldun, The Muqaddimah, Franz Rosenthal (Translator), Volume III, Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 1958, p. 368.
-> A F L Beeston, T M Johnstone, R B Serjeant and G R Smith (Editors), Arabic Literature To The End Of The Ummayad Period, 1983, Cambridge University Press, p. 34.
-> Louis Cheikho, Shucara' 'al-Nasraniyah, 1890-1891, Beirut.
Peace
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Peace Ahmed,
I guess the problem with you is that made you "unable to think" is because you believe too much on what other people think instead of finding the answer yourself...Don't just believe whatever people wrote that sounds sensible to you..Come on, be more "original", instead of pasting link to other people works...Give your own opinion base on what you understand.... Trust me, if you do that...no matter how little you know about the subject...you will be enlighten and gain more knowledge..Because pasting will make you unable to think..but when you come out with your own opinion..you will try to understand the subject first before posting..and when you need to understand the subject..you will do some research with a lot of questions in mind...and with all those questions..you will get the answers and more questions...and from there, you will gain more knowledge...
Always remember There will only be an answer when there is a question...
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace zsrin
Thanks for your comment however it was not for you really, but let me see what you have to say
I guess the problem with you is that made you "unable to think"
nice try bro, firstly I don't have a problem, secondly for a 40 years old man I think most likely they think proper
is because you believe too much on what other people think instead of finding the answer yourself...
haha bro, well I follow the people with knowledge not the people with talk talk and no proof, Allah told us in the Quran to seek religious knowledge from the people who has it, not from an ordinary chap in the street or from someone who speak no arabic on the net.
also bro why you think I followed them without digesting what they said?
well anpother conjecture you just created and convinced yourself with it, all I can say what you say about me is 100% non sense
Don't just believe whatever people wrote that sounds sensible to you..Come on, be more "original", instead of pasting link to other people works...Give your own opinion base on what you understand.... Trust me, if you do that...no matter how little you know about the subject...
who are you first?
you will be enlighten and gain more knowledge..Because pasting will make you unable to think..
lol , thanks for laugh, who are you again?
but when you come out with your own opinion..you will try to understand the subject first before posting..and when you need to understand the subject..you will do some research with a lot of questions in mind...and with all those questions..you will get the answers and more questions...and from there, you will gain more knowledge...
haha mister, I'm not here to gain much, mostely to refute the non sense I read here as I read it on the sunni web sites, I gain very lil as "most of my issues are resolved years ago, unlike many new kids in the block that I see every where", in fact I almost gained nothing from others other than crap, non sense funny stuff about the Quran and amazingly all those you want me to listen to don't speak a word of arabic, this is bloody funny
Always remember There will only be an answer when there is a question...
haha the answers is in the Quran mister not in my mind neither in yours, but you can follow yours, i will only follow the clear arabic Quran even if the idea I'm following is out of date and not a modern one lol
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Peace
This vesre from the Quran is for the ones who create, then follow their own unfounded conjectures
Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?
(23)
It seems the verse clearly describe them as deaf dumb and blind
Peace
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Peace
Here is another verse for those type of humans
43- Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion (or impulse)? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?
44- Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path.
(43)
(44)Again the verses clearly describe them as deaf and dumb, then as cattles, this is really bad for them
Peace
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Peace Ahmed,
Man, so you believe that only people who speaks Arabic will understand Koran? Then, I have nothing to say..Frankly, you have just given an answer why there are so many "conflicts" in those Arabian countries...Probably because, they think they know Koran because they speak Arabic..that made many of them to be so arrogant and failed to follow the right path...
Anyway, you have chosen to be and happy to be at the place you are now at..So, its pointless for me to argue with someone who choose not to "change" even when they realized they are making a mistake...
P/s Nothing much to say if some people choose let "Iblis" control themselves...
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Peace Ahmed,
Man, so you believe that only people who speaks Arabic will understand Koran? Then, I have nothing to say..Frankly, you have just given an answer why there are so many "conflicts" in those Arabian countries...Probably because, they think they know Koran because they speak Arabic..that made many of them to be so arrogant and failed to follow the right path...
Excuse me bro youe arguments are weak and ridiculous, I did not say what you are alleging that I believe
I'm discussing an issue with another brother regarding the unmatchable Arabic Quran, I NEVER DISCUSSED UNDERSTANDING IT
did you read my posts or you are one of thoose disturbers?
Anyway, you have chosen to be and happy to be at the place you are now at..So, its pointless for me to argue with someone who choose not to "change" even when they realized they are making a mistake...
That is right I don't like to argue with anyone, I only present known facts that were quilafied using my brian and sure well supported, i didn't make a god for myself as many are doing
and I like the smart way you put that I'm making a mistake and you are not, thanks for the laugh lol would that be a biased comment to your self?
well, from my side I will leave it at 5050 chance lol
P/s Nothing much to say if some people choose let "Iblis" control themselves...
what was that? shock
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Peace Ahmed,
4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
I guess, you need to understand the verse above more than me...
Anyway,
4623 He said "The knowledge of it is with God; and I only convey to you what I was sent with. However, I see that you are a people who are ignorant."
Try to understand something from the verse above...
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Peace Ahmed,
peace bro
4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
I guess, you need to understand the verse above more than me...
wrong translation sorry, i posted the right one, "Hawah" does not mean ego, this is wrong 100%
I guess for a native and fluent arabic speaker the odds is likely, the arabuc verses be more understood than those who don't speak arabic and can only resort to misleading translations
see, I don't need the above flawed translation, neither I need the right translation, i only read the Quran in Arabic because I'm blessed to have a native arabic tongue
see I will be so dumb that I speak arabic and I read the Quran in another language lol
Anyway,
4623 He said "The knowledge of it is with God; and I only convey to you what I was sent with. However, I see that you are a people who are ignorant."
Try to understand something from the verse above...
I do understand it well, why on earth you think I don't understand it?, this is bizzare, do you know me mister?, you just joined today for god sake lol
how many times you read the Quran in arabic throrougly, do you mind if I ask
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Peace Ahmed,
Actually I am about to go out before I saw your last message..Ok, I don't speak Arabic..so can you explain to me the exact meaning of it? Anyway? So I guess you're fluent in English as you're fluent in Arabic? can you explain to me the meaning of "vain"????
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cool bro, i'm about to got to bed
Yep I'm fluent in arabic including its tough grammar
I'm very good in english and speak it for the last 17 years, very bad in spelling and I don't mislead others by using ms word lol , but that is good enough for me to know that "Howa" means "Desire" clear as light
good night