the reading(quran) is not the title of any book

Fahad1

Hey Saladin,

"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482

Would you mind clearifying the corelation between the verse that you qouted and and the assertion that "al qur'?n" actually is the title of the book that people normally call the Koran?

regards,
S

salam.
checkout this article about Koran and self-reference
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htm

"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482

let us see whether the "Koran" in the above verse means 'the 114 chaptered book' or not

does the 114 chaptered book contain many occurances of the word "Ikhtelaafun" ? no . the word occurs only once in the 114 chapters . the '114 chaptered book' passes the test . "Koran" in the above verse means the 114 chaptered book . "Koran" is the title of this book .

el-Aziz

Hi

salam.
checkout this article about Koran and self-reference
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htm

I already did.
Now, shall we just cut the chase?
I would like you to clearify - in your own words - how it is that this book entitles itself as "the qur'an".

Thanks,
S

Fahad1

Hi

salam.
checkout this article about Koran and self-reference
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htm

I already did.
Now, shall we just cut the chase?
I would like you to clearify - in your own words - how it is that this book entitles itself as "the qur'an".

Thanks,
S

i have explained in my own words , in reply to idolfree1's posts, why there is no reason to believe that "quran" means "the reading of the universe" .

why should the "Quran" not mean the 114 chaptered kitab ? do u have any reason to believe otherwise ?

el-Aziz

i have explained in my own words , in reply to idolfree1's posts, why there is no reason to believe that "quran" means "the reading of the universe" .

why should the "Quran" not mean the 114 chaptered kitab ? do u have any reason to believe otherwise ?

Yes I do, these are some of them...

The word "qur'an" means a recitation or something being called out. Thus there's nothing aiming in the direction of the book being "al-qur'an" in this context. "Why not?" is simply not enough substance to me.
In the book that our conversation revolvs around, there are passages where it speaks of "this book". 482 is, as we know, not one of them.
"...so then why don't they research what is read/called/spoken...". It does not say study (d-r-s) as you might do with a scripture (kit?b), it says go back (d-b-r), i.e. go back to the source and see if it all makes sense in the end.

Hope this makes any sense to you,
S

mquran

El-aziz1. The word "qur'an" means a recitation or something being called out. Thus there's nothing aiming in the direction of the book being "al-qur'an" in this context. "Why not?" is simply not enough substance to me.

My reason is this

But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this (biquraanin ghairi hadhaa), or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (10/15)

and also

This Qur'an (hadhaa AL-QURAAN) is not such as can be produced by other than God....
(10/37)

Notice that despite already being called 'hadhaa', the word is still 'AL-quraan', so literally 'this THE quraan'.

Fahad1

The word "qur'an" means a recitation or something being called out. Thus there's nothing aiming in the direction of the book being "al-qur'an" in this context. "Why not?" is simply not enough substance to me.

Ahmed answered this before too .but no one else commented on it

The Quran means "reading"

Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of reading

Quran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE

peace

In the book that our conversation revolvs around, there are passages where it speaks of "this book". 482 is, as we know, not one of them.

why there are many verses which mention "quran" , but dont mention "kitab" . does it prove anything ?

"...so then why don't they research what is read/called/spoken...". It does not say study (d-r-s) as you might do with a scripture (kit?b), it says go back (d-b-r), i.e. go back to the source and see if it all makes sense in the end.

how cannot one research/ponder over the Quran ?
also what do u mean by "read/called/spoken" ? i mean what is it , in your opinion ,that is being "read/called/spoken" ?

el-Aziz

Saladin, mquran, anyone reading this post;

The word "qur'an" means a recitation or something being called out. Thus there's nothing aiming in the direction of the book being "al-qur'an" in this context. "Why not?" is simply not enough substance to me.

Ahmed answered this before too .but no one else commented on it

The Quran means "reading"

Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of reading

Quran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE

peace

That the qur?an wouldn?t be anything but the name of a book is stupid. The root qara? appears in both Aramaic and Hebrew language long before the qur?an was supposedly written.

how cannot one research/ponder over the Quran ?

I?m not talking about the qur?an such as the title of a book. When something is read/called out/proclaimed to you, you have the option of verify the information that you?re being given or you just believe it without doing any background check. This is what the verse means as far as I can see.

My reason is this

But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this (biquraanin ghairi hadhaa), or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (10/15)

Now, this verse obviously speaks of something else but what has already been typed down. It actually encourages one to follow what is inspired to one self. Could that be the qur?an? Give it a good thought, will you?

and also

This Qur'an (hadhaa AL-QURAAN) is not such as can be produced by other than God....
(10/37)

Notice that despite already being called 'hadhaa', the word is still 'AL-quraan', so literally 'this THE quraan'.

I wouldn?t jump to such grammatically inaccurate assertions. This is how the Arabic language uses demonstrative pronouns. Let me give you an example
?sa?alatn? 'l bint `an al bint al okhr? - The girl asked us about the other girl? It uses AL bint for both of the girls. Does that mean they?re the same person? No way, Jos

mquran

Now, this verse obviously speaks of something else but what has already been typed down. It actually encourages one to follow what is inspired to one self. Could that be the quran? Give it a good thought, will you

It's not someTHING other than this

It's a QURAAN other than this. What is 'this' , 'hadhaa'? 10/37 tells u what it is.

I wouldnt jump to such grammatically inaccurate assertions. This is how the Arabic language uses demonstrative pronouns. Let me give you an example
saalatn? 'l bint `an al bint al okhr? - The girl asked us about the other girl It uses AL bint for both of the girls. Does that mean theyre the same person? No way, Jos?!

Poor example showing lack of understanding in my point.

I'm trying to tell you, that 'hadha' is already demonstrative, the 'al' is unnecessary unless it was pointing to something specific.

Fahad1

how cannot one research/ponder over the Quran ?

I?m not talking about the qur?an such as the title of a book. When something is read/called out/proclaimed to you, you have the option of verify the information that you?re being given or you just believe it without doing any background check. This is what the verse means as far as I can see.

salam.
i see. what i was trying to show is that that which is being "read/called out/"(quran) refers to the 114 chapters . if u believe what u believe ,then Quran/"reading/calling out" is not just about any reading at all , but a specefic one , i.e the 114 chapters .

el-Aziz

Peace,

salam.
i see. what i was trying to show is that that which is being "read/called out/"(quran) refers to the 114 chapters . if u believe what u believe ,then Quran/"reading/calling out" is not just about any reading at all , but a specefic one , i.e the 114 chapters .

I heard you the first time. Still, what you haven't yet been able to give any substance for is that the word "qur'an" inside "the koran" actually would refer to the book of this matter.

mquran

I heard you the first time. Still, what you haven't yet been able to give any substance for is that the word "qur'an" inside "the koran" actually would refer to the book of this matter

Lets get this straight. YOU open a book which keeps saying 'this this this' and you can't accept that it refers to itself?

el-Aziz

Now, this verse obviously speaks of something else but what has already been typed down. It actually encourages one to follow what is inspired to one self. Could that be the qur?an? Give it a good thought, will you?

It's not someTHING other than this )

It's a QURAAN other than this. What is 'this' , 'hadhaa'? 10/37 tells u what it is.

The qur'an in 1015 can be seen as the call of the verse. The encouragment, so to speak. There's nothing really leading us towards the direction of the book itself.
The same goes for verse number 37, it is to be read in the context of other verses. That is what THIS reading means. Still nothing pointing to the title of a book.
To read is not only to transfer letters into words, but also to anounce them, speak them and proclaim. This is the meaning of the koranic "qara'", just like any other elder semitic scripture.

I'm trying to tell you, that 'hadha' is already demonstrative, the 'al' is unnecessary unless it was pointing to something specific.

The AL is always there after a demonstrative and a demonstrative pronoun always points to something specific. So what's the point I missed?

el-Aziz

I heard you the first time. Still, what you haven't yet been able to give any substance for is that the word "qur'an" inside "the koran" actually would refer to the book of this matter

Lets get this straight. YOU open a book which keeps saying 'this this this' and you can't accept that it refers to itself?

"Qur'an" still doesn't mean "book".

Fahad1

Peace,

salam.
i see. what i was trying to show is that that which is being "read/called out/"(quran) refers to the 114 chapters . if u believe what u believe ,then Quran/"reading/calling out" is not just about any reading at all , but a specefic one , i.e the 114 chapters .

I heard you the first time. Still, what you haven't yet been able to give any substance for is that the word "qur'an" inside "the koran" actually would refer to the book of this matter.

whew! i have explained my position in my earlier posts in the debate . u have yet to show WHY the "al quraan" should not refer to the 114 chapters .

Fahad1

I heard you the first time. Still, what you haven't yet been able to give any substance for is that the word "qur'an" inside "the koran" actually would refer to the book of this matter

Lets get this straight. YOU open a book which keeps saying 'this this this' and you can't accept that it refers to itself?

"Qur'an" still doesn't mean "book".

nor did we say that it does .

el-Aziz

I heard you the first time. Still, what you haven't yet been able to give any substance for is that the word "qur'an" inside "the koran" actually would refer to the book of this matter

Lets get this straight. YOU open a book which keeps saying 'this this this' and you can't accept that it refers to itself?

"Qur'an" still doesn't mean "book".

nor did we say that it does .

I thought mq posted on his own

el-Aziz

I heard you the first time. Still, what you haven't yet been able to give any substance for is that the word "qur'an" inside "the koran" actually would refer to the book of this matter.

whew! i have explained my position in my earlier posts in the debate . u have yet to show WHY the "al quraan" should not refer to the 114 chapters .

I see no reason why it actually would want to direct us towards the understanding of "this qur'an" being the same thing as the book in question. So why would I wanna deny something that hasn't even been established?

Fahad1

I heard you the first time. Still, what you haven't yet been able to give any substance for is that the word "qur'an" inside "the koran" actually would refer to the book of this matter.

whew! i have explained my position in my earlier posts in the debate . u have yet to show WHY the "al quraan" should not refer to the 114 chapters .

I see no reason why it actually would want to direct us towards the understanding of "this qur'an" being the same thing as the book in question. So why would I wanna deny something that hasn't even been established?

has it been established that it refers to some quran other than itself ?
and how does the 114 chaptered book refer to itself ?

el-Aziz

I see no reason why it actually would want to direct us towards the understanding of "this qur'an" being the same thing as the book in question. So why would I wanna deny something that hasn't even been established?

has it been established that it refers to some quran other than itself ?
and how does the 114 chaptered book refer to itself ?

Nothing with regards to "al-qur'an" has been established for certain this far. Does this mean we can adopt any explanation until further notice?

unknownuser

The word "qur'an" means a recitation or something being called out. Thus there's nothing aiming in the direction of the book being "al-qur'an" in this context. "Why not?" is simply not enough substance to me.

Ahmed answered this before too .but no one else commented on it

The Quran means "reading"

Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of reading

Quran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE

peace

That the qur?an wouldn?t be anything but the name of a book is stupid. The root qara? appears in both Aramaic and Hebrew language long before the qur?an was supposedly written.

Hi

well if I take another WELL ESTABLIDHED and WELL FOUNDED arabic word that means nothing but Reading and use it to interpet the scripture name I will be FAR MORE DUMBER

here it is so you may learn something bro

it happens to be that there is only one word in arabic that means Reading

Reading in Engllish = "" in Arabic

now here is my next question,

does "" look Exactly the SAME as ""

I have just asked my very young son the same question "he does not speak arabic though" and he said the blue shape and the red shape can Not match, you know he plays that matching shapes game a lot, children do have expreince in matching shapes perfectly, did you play that game when you are a child bro?, I did, and apparantly I'm addiected to it and still playing it with my son lol

here is another question mate,

why on earth someone names a book a name means Reading?

well, let me ask my daughter this question this time

hey daughter, can you please tell me what humans should do with any book?

she said this exactly bro they should read it dad

I asked her, is anything else possible they can do with it

she said, yep they can make it "Karatees" lol

so calling a book a "Reading" is far more stupid bro

and here is my last question bro

assume we need to derive 20 arabic words from a one 3 letters root,

why we need to do that?, sure it must be to create new words,

then why we need to create new words bro?, well to create new meanings, can you guess of any other reason for creating new words? you need to think hard for this one bro, I could not find any myself

so we ended up with 20 words with different meaning,

here is the question bro, why on earth I did it from the first place if for every word I use I will use the meaning of the root?, see, I got you here bro, lol

so after the new words are driven, each one is dealt indpendently from the root

Hence this root method is damn inaccurate, confusing, funny sometimes, and is a novice method to learn the true arabic, possibly for kids it is ok

I wouldn?t jump to such grammatically inaccurate assertions. This is how the Arabic language uses demonstrative pronouns. Let me give you an example
?sa?alatn? 'l bint `an al bint al okhr? - The girl asked us about the other girl? It uses AL bint for both of the girls. Does that mean they?re the same person? No way, Jos?!

lol , nice try bro, but you added the word "Okhra" which mean "Another", thanks for the laugh mate

cheers