Disturbing questions

newwizard3253

First, let me start by saying that I consider myself a Muslim. I keep the five daily prayers (though many times I have to combine them), I abstain from alcohol and pork, I try to be the more charitable possible, to perform good deeds, to remember God, etc.

But I have and always had a critic mind. Reason and good sense must come into faith, I reckon. And because we are often discouraged to ask questions in Islam, I have searched all over the web for forums and sites where some answers might be given. I thought that Islam should suffice itself in order to defend itself from any accusations, with logical arguments and truth. But I have failed to see it. I myself am no scholar or expert in Islam. I've only read the Quran (translations) twice, some hadiths and some books on the religion as a whole. I found myself surfing through an Islam Apostates' forum yesterday and I must say it got me thinking. Really thinking. I couldn't help to wonder that they could be right about it. There were some muslims there trying to defend Islam with logical arguments but they largely failed to do so.

So, there are some questions that keep pounding in my head. I have two translations of the Quran at home. I've read bits of others in the internet as well. They all differ from each other. I wanted to know what the Quran itself, without sunna and hadith (One of my Qurans is full of commentaries), has to say about these intriguing questions

What is the punishment for robbery?
What is the punishment for apostasy?
Is the Talion law applicable? If so, is it fair?
In inheritance laws, women receive half of what men do. Why?
Is it alright to persecute and kill unbelievers?
Are there 70 or whatever virgins in Paradise as a reward for believers?
The Prophet is an example for all mankind to follow. What about those disturbing stories (many of them) where the Prophet acts like a tyrant and a killer? And others were he shows plain superstition, not to mention the mysoginic beliefs (?more women in Hell because they are weaker in religion!!; ?it is more virtuous to women to pray at home!?)?
The Quran is a message from God to all of mankind. Is is it intemporal or specific in time?
If the word of God is perfect as He is, why are there abrogation of verses?

Rejecting Sunna and Hadith as man made would also imply that the first generations of muslims were anything but corrupt, biased individuals with no respect towards God and the Prophet! But accepting them, also implies accepting absurd stories and superstitions as cornerstones of our beliefs and portraying Muhammad as an Prophet that had little for us to be touched, inspired or moved with (as in comparison with Jesus, for instance). I would try to bring my parents and my brother into Islam, but what would happen if I showed them these stories about Muhammad opposed to those of Jesus? They would totally discredit my beliefs! So how do I solve this?

Finally, is it simply a logical plausible thing for Muhammad just to have written the Quran out of his own knowledge, beliefs and experiences with Jews and Christians?

I don't want to be an apostate. I believe in God and I feel the truth in Islam. But at the same time I feel a blurry mist of inconsistent doctrines and beliefs. Somethings just don't make sense! At the present time, sometimes reason frights me when confronting the Quran itself. But I would be far more dishonest towards myself and towards God if I didn't keep questioning.

newwizard3253

And if we come to the conclusion that the Qur'an has just simply been corrupted throughout the ages, it contradicts its own statements where God promises to protect the Quran! Of course, this statement could be corrupt as well, but then if we go like that, what would be true and what wouldn't be? And by whose standards?

Layth

Peace Mustafa,

What is the punishment for robbery?

That the thief return what was stolen and be made to compensate (1274-76).

What is the punishment for apostasy?

No punishment (1097)

Is the Talion law applicable? If so, is it fair?

No idea what 'Talion' is...Sounds like a Christian thing.

In inheritance laws, women receive half of what men do. Why?

Because men are legally responsible for spending on the household (435).

Is it alright to persecute and kill unbelievers?

Murder is punishable by execution of the murderer (54.

Are there 70 or whatever virgins in Paradise as a reward for believers?

To my knowledge there is no reproduction in the afterlife (i.e. no reproductive organs) so I am far pressed to think what the person wants to do with the 70 virgins (play cards perhaps?).

The answer is 'no'.

The Prophet is an example for all mankind to follow. What about those disturbing stories (many of them) where the Prophet acts like a tyrant and a killer? And others were he shows plain superstition, not to mention the mysoginic beliefs (?more women in Hell because they are weaker in religion!!; ?it is more virtuous to women to pray at home!?)?
The Quran is a message from God to all of mankind. Is is it intemporal or specific in time?

You are confusing between the garbage stories of the hadith and the beauty and wisdom of the Scripture (Quran)...In the latter there are no such tales of the last prophet or any other prophets.

If the word of God is perfect as He is, why are there abrogation of verses?

There are no abrogation of verses according to the Scripture itself...Again you are quoting the teachings of Hadith.

Rejecting Sunna and Hadith as man made would also imply that the first generations of muslims were anything but corrupt, biased individuals with no respect towards God and the Prophet! But accepting them, also implies accepting absurd stories and superstitions as cornerstones of our beliefs and portraying Muhammad as an Prophet that had little for us to be touched, inspired or moved with (as in comparison with Jesus, for instance). I would try to bring my parents and my brother into Islam, but what would happen if I showed them these stories about Muhammad opposed to those of Jesus? They would totally discredit my beliefs! So how do I solve this?

Islam is about surrendering to God and following his system...It has nothing to do with the tales of men and lies they commit in His name or regarding His prophet...You should not be protective of your relatives to let them find the truth for themselves...Either they will be guided by God, or they will be led astray depending on their inner convictions (God Alone, or God Plus?).

Finally, is it simply a logical plausible thing for Muhammad just to have written the Quran out of his own knowledge, beliefs and experiences with Jews and Christians?

If you think it is, then that is your conviction...

"Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found it very different. " (The Message 482)

Fahad1

What is the punishment for robbery?
What is the punishment for apostasy?
Is the Talion law applicable? If so, is it fair?
In inheritance laws, women receive half of what men do. Why?
Is it alright to persecute and kill unbelievers?
Are there 70 or whatever virgins in Paradise as a reward for believers?
The Prophet is an example for all mankind to follow. What about those disturbing stories (many of them) where the Prophet acts like a tyrant and a killer? And others were he shows plain superstition, not to mention the mysoginic beliefs (?more women in Hell because they are weaker in religion!!; ?it is more virtuous to women to pray at home!?)?
The Quran is a message from God to all of mankind. Is is it intemporal or specific in time?
If the word of God is perfect as He is, why are there abrogation of verses?

salam Mustafa.

1 cutting off hands , according to the Quran .

2 Quran gives freedom to believe or disbelieve .

what talion law ?
I quote M. Asadi here "Women get half the inheritance only in the case of daughter/son but not in the case of mother/father- in which case it is equal- the daughter/son scenario is based upon justice the daughter is expected to get a huge chunk from the husband upon marriage but the son is supposed to provide for his wife as a duty- and give a huge chunk of that "double" to his wife (a woman) and so on."

5 only in retaliation .

6 this story comes from the hadiths . this is unQuranic .

7 the Messenger is an example for all mankind to follow . the Messenger lead his life with the Quran as his guide . that is how we are supposed to follow his example . not by following hadith and conjecture .

8 it is for all time to come .

9 abrogation is a lie . there is no abrogation of verses .

newwizard3253

Wa Alaikum Salam Layth and thanks for your patience! wink

That the thief return what was stolen and be made to compensate (1274-76)

Most translations I read said ?cutt off his/her hand?. But then, there are other translations/interpretations like the one you posted. I wish the meaning could be more objective. And what about if the thief can't return what he has stolen? Should he be arested?

No punishment (1097)

So, I suppose the death penalties for this are just hadith/sunna.

No idea what 'Talion' is...Sounds like a Christian thing.

It's the law found in early Scriptures like the Torah. ?Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth?. I reckon muslims still practice the diyah or the price of blood. Do you find it fair? Does it have quranic evidence?

Because men are legally responsible for spending on the household (435).

And if there's a case where it is the woman who spends on the household? And if both equally spend on it?

Murder is punishable by execution of the murderer (54.

Not in all cases. There is some sura where God orders for muslims to persecute and slay the unbelievers. I can only conceive this as defensive war. Do you think killing the murderer is fair or send him to rot in jail would be better? After all, God will judge everyone in the end and He is the Best of Judges.
I personally think that it would be fair in some cases. Others, I have serious doubts.

To my knowledge there is no reproduction in the afterlife (i.e. no reproductive organs) so I am far pressed to think what the person wants to do with the 70 virgins (play cards perhaps?).

The answer is 'no'.

lol Perhaps some strip-poker, hun? Oops, I forgot that's gambling! Or is it allowed in Heaven? Anyway, I don't know the verses but I remember reading more than once some verses concerning huris or women with no menses to be disposable to the believers in the Hereafter.

You are confusing between the garbage stories of the hadith and the beauty and wisdom of the Scripture (Quran)...In the latter there are no such tales of the last prophet or any other prophets.

Yes, but Muhammad is part of Islam. In the Quran, God says to follow His messenger and that Muhammad is an example for mankind. Therefore, for us to know his example, we have to know his story and his life. This can be achieved only through the hadiths, siras and all that. If those are all corrupted, then it's a dead end!

There are no abrogation of verses according to the Scripture itself...Again you are quoting the teachings of Hadith.

Isn't there a verse saying God replaces any verse that He wishes for other even better?

Islam is about surrendering to God and following his system...It has nothing to do with the tales of men and lies they commit in His name or regarding His prophet...You should not be protective of your relatives to let them find the truth for themselves...Either they will be guided by God, or they will be led astray depending on their inner convictions (God Alone, or God Plus?).

Sure! Mashallah! God guides whomever He wills. Everyday I pray for God to guide them. I was just saying that they might be shocked at some hadiths and intringued at some Quranic verses as I have been. I'm just hoping to gain further knowledge of the religion so that I can logically explain any doubts and rebute any accusations concerning the Quran (it would be a rather hopeless effort concerning the hadiths).

If you think it is, then that is your conviction...

I still think it's God's speech! I'm just wondering if it would be possible for it to be Muhammad's work. Just posing myself and others questions.

newwizard3253

Wa Alaikum Salam Saladin and thanks for your reply! wink

8 it is for all time to come

I also think the Quran is a guide for all of us and for all times. That's why I am a muslim. But the interesting thing is, should we regard the Quran in a historical perspective?

I believe we should. I don't believe in the dogma of the uncreated Quran because it is the eternal word of God therefore it always existed. I think God spoke to mankind at that specific time (VII Century), in a specific place (Arabian Peninsula), to a specific man (Muhammad), to a specific people (Arabs) with a specific culture and views. Future generations should use this Book as a guide but should treat also in relation to the time when it was revealed. To put things into perspective.

unknownuser

Hi,

I think God spoke to mankind at that specific time (VII Century), in a specific place (Arabian Peninsula), to a specific man (Muhammad), to a specific people (Arabs) with a specific culture and views. Future generations should use this Book as a guide but should treat also in relation to the time when it was revealed. To put things into perspective.

I agree.
When Quran is not viewed with this truth, all mis-interpretations arise, and the essence of the guidance is lost.
Quran is a guide to all mankind and has the eternal truth.

Peace!

Jaxal

SaLaM mustafa

Brothers those are not disturbing questions. Those are valid question. This is how we come to the truth. By questioning.

phoenix1

those are great questions Mustaf@Salim, dont be afraid of questioning. God has given us a brain so we can think, and has given us this world so that we may look at God's laws (laws by which everything in the universe works) and judge true from false. Mullahs discourage questioning because they know the hadith can't stand up to logic.
i dont have much knowledge of the Quran. I think there is an article on the website on the hooris (how they are an offspring of mistranslation of the Quran). I hope someone else can answer the rest of your questions.

Leyla

Salaam brother Mustaf@Salim!

Your questions are really very valid ones. Never feel ashamed of questioning.
When one really is in search of the truth one needs to work oneself to it. The quran tells us to reassure ourselves of everything that we hear about. We are told to believe in the quran out of reassurance, not out of blind belief.
Reassurance without questions is impossible!

To adress, from my viewpoint, some of the doubts you had with Layth answers

The issue of the thief.
The meaning is objective when put into context. Just out of context it is not. That?s why Layth didn?t quote 5/38 to you (which is sometimes worngly translated as cutting off a literal hand) but 12/74-76.
There we learn how Yusuf, a messenger of God, himself would punish a thief. And this decription tells us that the translation of 5/38 as cutting off a hand is inconsistent with Yusuf`s action.
Translating it as compensation is consistent with the decision of the messenger Yusuf!
Furthermore, when translating it as compensation, the next verse (5/39) can be translated much better as well and becomes more meaningful. This gives us one more hint.
The last hint, which is phenomenal, is that it is the story of Yusuf as well which tells us in 12/31 that the phrase in 5/39 definitely does not mean cuting off something, amputating it. It may refer to marking a hand with a cut or it may mean cutting something from property but it does not mean cutting off at all!

When using the verse in the context of the quran it is quite objective to say that any idea of cutting off a hand is ridiculous here.

If the thief can?t compensate from his posession he should do some extra work for that compensation. That?s obvious from the decision of Yusuf as well.

Talion laws.
One could call the punishment for the thief and some other punishments in the quran a talion law. However, one needs to know that accoring to the principles of the quran such a talion law is a right but not necessarily an obligation.
It is the upper limit that Allah gives us as a right to take. E.g. in this context an eye for an eye? would mean you are allowed to take an eye or the worth of an eye for an eye, but you are not allowed to take more. this is your right, but don?t step over the limit here. take youre right if you want or forgive.?
By the way, that?s how the bible puts it as well. The common understanding of this is wrong!
Talion laws are rights and not obligations!
Issue of inheritance, financial support.
Unfortunately I can?t give you the direct verses now but I now from my readings of the quran that these are also mainly rights but not obligations. Certain individuals have a right to have a certain financial support in the system of Allah.
But if they don?t take that right its up to them.
A couple can, in a certain frame, have their own agreements about issues like that. As long as they respect each other?s rights!
I hope that I will research the relevant verses here again and give them to you. But please know that i am pretty sure about their existence .... D
War issues etc.
Yes, this is largely about defensive wars and fighting against tyranny. The quran is very explicit in many many verses that as soon as the tyranny stops there is no way against peace!
Furthermore, the word kafir?n only poorly translates as unbelievers. It does not just simply refer to people who have different believes. It is better translated as `rejecters? (of basic truths).
And the quran tells us how to recognize those people. They are those who cause mischief on earth. In the beginning of Surah 2 you will be introduced to a very good descrption of al kafir?n!!
The plural term that is translated as huris (e.g. in 44/54) is not specifically female. Yes, we are promised to have pure companions in paradise. Men and women are promised tis, all believers. What?s wrong with that? Obviously, everyone who will share companionship in paradise will be purified.
It`s not the problem of the quran that some sick guys created their own porn stories around a term taken from it!
The quran does not talk about 70 virgins without menses who become virgins again after being devirginized etc. .....
The quran says at many places that it is guidance for all mankind? and that it itself contains all details. It refers to our own experiences not just to experiences of a man in 7th century Arabia. Even more so, while I have a huge respect for that man, he just stays a normal human being. You can?t just simply arrange your interpretation of the guidance for all mankind? around some stories about this human being that were, furthemore, collected more than 100, sometimes more than 300 years after the death of that man.

When the quran says that it contains all relevant details and that one should not place more trust into a hadeeth after it, we need to take that serious. If we don?t we would not believe int he quran.
Rather we would believe in stories about a simple human in 7th century Arabia which were collected 300 years after his death!

Ok, I hope that this was helpful.
As I said, don?t feel shy to ask more.
May Allah guide you in the best way and keep your mind and your eyes open,

Leyla

unknownuser

Hello Salim,

There you have it. Such diverse answers for you. From houris with no sex organs to cutting hands of to compensation to marking to the story of Yusuf...

Its a bewildering world wink

But never be afraid of asking questions. Overcome this fear of the scripture and ask questions with a view to understand...

Regards,

Leyla

Peace LoteTree!

I did not say that the punishment for thieves is marking the hand. The context of the story of Yusuf is very clear here. It is definitely compensation and that makes it obvious that its not about literal hands.
What I meant was that even if you really would have to take the phrase of cutting the hands literal it would not even mean cutting off. Even then quranic Arabic would only present it as cutting the hand but not cutting it off.
And it is very strange that we learn this from the story of Yusuf as well!

The same surah of Yusuf first tells us that even in a literal sense the phrase from 5/38 would not mean cutting
off . And then, just some verses later, it also tells us that we don?t even need the literal sense.
This is one of the examples of how exact the quran is in educating us to understand it.
You just need to read the quran through its own internal principles and then there?s no bewilderment at all.
That is one of the phenomenal things of this book.
If really studied the quran does not leave many questions open.

Of course, critical questions need to be asked of scriptures as well. They are not out of being questioned. I did so with all religious scriptures that crossed my path. And those were definitely a lot.
Through this I learned a lot of respect for all of those scriptures from many paths and cultures.
However, I also learned that the quran is unique and most amazing in its exactness of explaining and introducing concepts in consistency and the best criterion.
Given the fact that you leave all traditional interpretations and translations and dare to dive into the ocean of a personal adventure with that divine book!

But of course, this is an experience that everyone needs to make on his own. Salim has to, you have to. No one can force ones experiences on others!
The quran asks us to reassure ourselves of its truth on our own and not to just blindly believe others.

peace again,

leyla

unknownuser

Peace LoteTree!
I did not say that the punishment for thieves is marking the hand.

Hello Leyla, I did not make an accussation. I just suggested that there are diversity of interpretations.

and dare to dive into the ocean of a personal adventure with that divine book!

But be careful perhaps not drown yourself in the waters wink

Regards,

TheNabi

Peace

Reason and good sense must come into faith, I reckon.

My sentiments according to my understanding of the reading .

And because we are often discouraged to ask questions in Islam, I have searched all over the web for forums and sites where some answers might be given.

No in islam one is encouraged to seek for knowledge. See my signature.

I've only read the Quran (translations) twice, some hadiths and some books on the religion as a whole.

Do find the motivation to study it, the reading, some more.

I wanted to know what the Quran itself, without sunna and hadith (One of my Qurans is full of commentaries), has to say about these intriguing questions

If you wish to know I think you can find out for yourself if you studied the reading. If you are uncomfortable with commentary I'd suggest you ignore such things and read the ayatin/verses instead.

What is the punishment for robbery?

I believe the thief should return in due measure according to what was taken .

What is the punishment for apostasy?

There is none that I know of .

Is the Talion law applicable? If so, is it fair?

I'm not sure what this implies.

In inheritance laws, women receive half of what men do. Why?

In a quranic society the men are to be maintainers. It is a man's duty to care for his wife and children according to his means.

Is it alright to persecute and kill unbelievers?

No .

Are there 70 or whatever virgins in Paradise as a reward for believers?

No there will only be their companions, for both men and women.

azwajun mutahharatun = Pure Spouses

See 225; 3656

The Prophet is an example for all mankind to follow. What about those disturbing stories (many of them) where the Prophet acts like a tyrant and a killer? And others were he shows plain superstition, not to mention the mysoginic beliefs (?more women in Hell because they are weaker in religion!!; ?it is more virtuous to women to pray at home!?)?

Remember you asked for confirmation via the reading. )

The Quran is a message from God to all of mankind. Is is it intemporal or specific in time?

It is applicable to all epochs.

If the word of God is perfect as He is, why are there abrogation of verses?

I do not believe any signs are abrogated.

Rejecting Sunna and Hadith as man made would also imply that the first generations of muslims were anything but corrupt, biased individuals with no respect towards God and the Prophet!

I would not assume so. There are many ignorant people.

But accepting them, also implies accepting absurd stories and superstitions as cornerstones of our beliefs and portraying Muhammad as an Prophet that had little for us to be touched, inspired or moved with (as in comparison with Jesus, for instance). I would try to bring my parents and my brother into Islam, but what would happen if I showed them these stories about Muhammad opposed to those of Jesus? They would totally discredit my beliefs! So how do I solve this?

Why bring your parents into a fold which you may not have a firm footing in yourself? Is that not dangerous?

Give them a quran, try getting one without commentary, and have them read it.

Finally, is it simply a logical plausible thing for Muhammad just to have written the Quran out of his own knowledge, beliefs and experiences with Jews and Christians?

Perhaps.

I don't want to be an apostate.

Then you won't be.

I believe in God and I feel the truth in Islam. But at the same time I feel a blurry mist of inconsistent doctrines and beliefs. Somethings just don't make sense! At the present time, sometimes reason frights me when confronting the Quran itself. But I would be far more dishonest towards myself and towards God if I didn't keep questioning.

Then patiently persevere.

Joe

Elke

Peace Mustafa, all

you said
Future generations should use this Book as a guide but should treat also in relation to the time when it was revealed.

i absolutely agree. As i said in another post, the spiritual message of the quran remains the same, but laws evolve with time and changes in society. If in taliban afghanistan whipping adulterers would have been kind (instead of stoning), i don't think any western society could accept it. There are fortunately other possiblities off treating the problem nowadays.
Mquran answered me that he understood my point of view, but found it unislamic. I pray to god for forgiveness if i'm wrong, but i just can't accect these punishments i see as barbaric nowaday - even though they might have been acceptable in another society, long ago or only far away...

elke

unknownuser

i absolutely agree. As i said in another post, the spiritual message of the quran remains the same, but laws evolve with time and changes in society.

This has always been the case.

If in taliban afghanistan whipping adulterers would have been kind (instead of stoning), i don't think any western society could accept it.

Not should western society but any society should find this unacceptable!!!

but i just can't accect these punishments i see as barbaric nowaday - even though they might have been acceptable in another society, long ago or only far away...
elke

Don't worry Elke, when any set of laws no longer work for us we have changed them without great fanfare. We have done this many times in the past and continue to do so in the future. So there is hope for us... -)

Regards,

newwizard3253

But stoning/whipping or confining adulterers to houses is a quranic commandment, isn?t it? I remember reading more than once.

Jaxal

SaLaM Mustafa

It is. YOu are right. BUT, i believe, if the Quran came down today, its punishment would be different. I believe, these punishments were according to the time.

Leyla

Salaam!

@LoteTree
I didn?t take it as an accusation, don?t worry. ) But you presented marking, cutting and compensation as alternatives after I?ve made a post including the word `marking?. I just wanted to make clear that my post did not speak about alternatives!

Mustaf@Salim
Whipping is quranic, as we see in surah 24. Stoning is no quranic punishment at all. There is no death penalty for adultery in the quran!

The whipping issue
Well, it?s surely not a painless thing and it?s not very nice to imagine it.
Although, as many have pointed out, the original quranic Arabic here implies lashes that should not cause any wounds, lashes that are relatively mild. But still it sounds not nice to us, right?
But does that mean that we can put our socially and culturally conditioned minds over the laws of the quran ??

We are these days, in a globalizing world, conditioned to believe that sexuality is just a thing of privacy and that adultery should just be up to the individuals involved.
With what reasoning?
On what basis other than fear of maybe having to be punished as well?
Contrast the pain that adultery causes with the pain of 100 lashes!
If someone would place a choice in front of me to make a decision, either having a partner comitting adultery with someone else or receiving 100 lashes, I would chose the 100 lashes because they hurt less!!!
Adultery causes a lot of pains that are worse than 100 lashes!
These pains are so strong that sometimes even murders are committed because of them.
If without a right physical pains are done to a human individual we all would recommend a punishment here. And emotional pains can even be much worse than physical pains.
And we should also not forget that adultery can have many bad effects that go beyond hurted emotions. E.g. it can contribute to the spread of diseases that lead to death. A lot of people have to die these days because their partner couldn?t fully commit to them!
Unwanted children may also be a result, there are many possible negative consequences from adultery.
Adultery is not just a minor slip in controlling your desires! It is much more!

And, hey, the quran is pretty mild here, much milder than most legislations on adultery in al of the history of humankind. We just need to remind ourselves of stoning to get this.
I would say that stoning (like the Taliban) and doing nothing (like modern western society) are two extremes while the quran presents to us a balanced approach.

Let?s also not forget that the whole surah 24 is about the protection of privacy!
It tells us that we are not allowed to spy on other people`s privacy, that spreading rumours is wrong etc..
This is the main topic of surah 24, I would say.
It guards the privacy, also the sexual privacy!
Adultery only becomes a punishable crime in the quran when seen outside of privacy, virtually in public, by at least 4 witnesses (read 24/4).
Not respecting this privacy, spreading rumours without real witnesses will be rewarded with almost as much punishment as adultery itself.
So, in general, the quran is very balanced and mild here.
We just need to study all the implications in surah 24 and also all the negative implications that adultery may cause to see this.

This talk about the punishment being `barbaric? is just rhetorics coming from our social and cultural conditioning. It has no reasonable foundation at all.
Adultery itself is barbaric, even more so when done virtually in public.

Allah Hafiz,

Leyla

unknownuser

Hi,

Adultery only becomes a punishable crime in the quran when seen outside of privacy, virtually in public, by at least 4 witnesses (read 24/4).

I didnt quite understand this.
Does this mean, sex outside marriage (in privacy)is not adultery or is it also adultery but not punishable, unless the sex was in public(with 4 witnesses) ?

Peace!