Why the Test?
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To put anything of the creator in human terms is an arrogant comparrison. When people say god is vengeful, or kind, or loving or anything like that, they are humanising something because that is all they know how to understand. It is simply too large a concept to grasp with human terms. For "god" to be either perfect of imperfect, it would have to be human to begin with as those are human terms. There is no perfect or imperfect for god.
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Salaam,
I was having a discussion with one of my roommates tonight about the nature of God. I'll spare you the details, but her basic argument was that in order to explain our imperfect world, we must simply agree that God is imperfect. I replied that first, the use of the word "perfect" or "imperfect" is not an apt method of describing God. Secondly, I said something to the effect of "If God intended to test us as human beings, then this world is in fact perfect and no explanation is necessary..." In reply to my long rebuttal, her question was why God needed to test human beings? I thought about this and replied that it was not a test for God, it was a test for us as humanity to prove how truly human we are and that we "deserve" God. I wonder what your responses to this question would be...but really why is there this test? I mean is it a case of proof(since God knows how it'll turn out, we are basically giving a record of the result as opposed to determining the result)? I fear that this question is unanswerable, but I wanna hear your opinions.
-ichephrenHello
I had a long debate with my wife cousin who lives in the UK and is an ex muslim, i think that is why he left islam, he does not believe in that test, it was a long debate actually, I will try to find it and post what is relevant here.
The highlights from that debate as far as I remeber was as follow
- God can not be questionable to what He chose to do as long as it is not punishing us, i.e. If Allah will force a punishment on us then it will be our right to know why in advance as well been warned about it, these two conditions were fulfiled in the Quran and previous scriptures, as well the warning was accomplished by sending thousands of prophets to humanity
Allah said it in the Quran that He can't force the punishment unless He sends prophets in advance with warnings to humanity
Messengers of good cheer and of warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
(165)
Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger.
(15)
-> Very clear from the above verses, also the above indicates that we are dealing with a 100% fair God, because assuming god is not fair and will force whatever on us, CAN WE DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT?
OF COURSE NOT, because He is a Mighty and Powerful God as we can see from His creation
In effect, regardless how it puzzles humans why God wants to enforce the test on us, is irrelevant because at the end of the day God does what He wants, He told us this message many times in the Quran, here is a couple
Do you not see that Allah is He, Whom obeys whoever is in the heavens and whoever is in the earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars, and the mountains and the trees, and the animals and many of the people; and many there are against whom chastisement has become necessary; and whomsoever Allah abases, there is none who can make him honorable; surely Allah does what He pleases.
(1
Doer (without let) of all that He intends.
(16)
To summarize the above point in a logical way, God does what He wants when He wants, even if it is not fair "just an assumption", we just can't do anything about it, in fact this is already seen in each one of us, clearly we found ourselves alive without having the choice to be or not to be.
- Another logical point maybe, imagine God is playing with us, and because he is God and He created us to play with then He can easily put all of us in the hell fire, CAN WE DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT? again, of course not, also it would have been easy on Him to create all of us in heaven and no test will be enforced, again we can't do anything about it.
He also able to create us then decide to throw 50% of us in hell and the rest in paradise and surely we still can't do anything about it. Clear we have no freewill in what i just discussed
what Allah did is, instead of controlling us like crash dummies with no freewill, He gave us the freewill and He will not seal our destination, it is us who will be in charge
it is now up to us to seal it with the freewill given, He has put us in the driver seat instead of making us as passnegers only
To drive a car safely you need to pass a test and that is what will give it all the sense,
freewill requires a test
no freewill does not require a test
Allah knows best
Peace
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Salaamun alaikum Ichephren,
I don't think that the question is relevant. I'm not saying this to fob off the question itself, but when I think about God and infinitesimal me, how can I possibly understand his design. He has me in the metaphorical palm of His hand. I cannot escape his grasp and it's only through His Rahmaat that he sends guidance. Why did He put us here?
He cannot be questioned for His acts, but they will be questioned (21/23)
I think a more vital question is our essence, i.e. who are we and where are we going? If we contemplate the signs, there's only one answer to this ultimate question.
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peace ichephren,
You may find the following threads helpful
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=806
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1476
The following is my understanding only (as always)
The God = All Knowing
thus...
The God knows the outcome of your life (lets call this the theoretical determination, theoretical to us, but fact to The God, as The God is All Knowing)
The God = The Just
thus...
The God would not sentence you on a theoretical (to you) because I am extremely confident you would argue that you haven't even done anything bad yet! (if the sentence was bad/hell) In other words, its not been shown/proven to you. Hence this life.
It is a test or one can see it as an accumulation of the proof, a self-testimony.Wakas
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WakasThe God = All Knowing
thus...
The God knows the outcome of your life (lets call this the theoretical determination, theoretical to us, but fact to The God, as The God is All Knowing)
I would disagree with this because 3/142 says
Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah knowing (walamma ya'lamu Allah) those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?
So there's a period before Allah knowing.
Allah knows a 'thing'/shai'un but is something in potential before birth to actuality a 'thing' ?
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peace mq,
I disagree. Allah is all-knowing.
to me, 3142 does not imply Allah does not know. firstly, al quran is written for our frame of reference. and like many of the questions phrased in such a way, it is rhetorical.
interestingly, 3142 seems to be implying one has to live their life, to actively provide the proof. and perhaps that is why in the following sign, it discusses those who wanted death prior to facing it. Here is their chance to provide the proof.
Also, brother Tanveer made a post about "distinguishing" rather than "knowing". I recall it giving me food for thought
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=45181&highlight=#45181
Wakas
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Peace
3142 DOES NOT imply that Allah does not know at all, IN FACT AND QUITE THE CONTRARY IT CONFIRMS THAT ALLAH IS THE ALL KNOWING
It simply and clearly says the following
Do you ever think that you will enter Paradise without Allah knowing who was a true believer?
The true believer was described as someone who is "Mujahid to the self" and a patient human
In effect the verse simply means, ALLAH SURLEY KNOWS WHO WILL DESERVE TO ENTER PARADISE
Peace
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Peace Icephren,
Before this thread sidetracks I'd like to offer my 2 cents...
The crux of your query,
You mentioned
"If God intended to test us as human beings, then this world is in fact perfect and no explanation is necessary..."and your friend responded
"why God needed to test human beings?"Right here, the premise falls apart and you might spend the rest of your life debating should you follow this broken path.
The God does not "need".
So, your friend is barking up the wrong tree to begin with. However, this may not quench the thirst of her reasonable ambition.To put it simply, in my humble opinion, there is no right answer to a wrong question. The question should be, and has always been, "why do we exist?"
And to answer that, you must leave the realm of reason and enter the spiritual. In one word, "love". Remember, the mind is designed to understand this frequency of reality, ie, trees, oceans, mountains, aromas, tastes, feelings, and sounds, etc. The mind is NOT designed to see beyond this frequency. But beyond this frequency is where the answers lie, and can only be experienced by the soul - for the soul is the infinite, not the mind.
Peace,
Tay -
Salaamun alaikum Ahmed and Wakas,
I see 'walamma' as 'and when' or 'and at length' and so there's a point where Allah didn't know simply because (in my opinion) there wasn't a thing to know.
Wakas, I reject 'distinguishing' here because why would Allah need to distinguish if He already knew? If you say he wished to show us humans, then the word 'ra'aa' would be used.
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peace mq,
i still think the Q is rhetorical, thus if you change the trans. to what you suggested, i dont see how it makes a difference.
to distinguish something is different than to know it. to distinguish is to separate out whats there, and thats exactly what is being done to the people of 3142.
Wakas
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to distinguish something is different than to know it. to distinguish is to separate out whats there, and thats exactly what is being done to the people of 3142.
That's right Wakas, it was a matter of semantics. However 'ya'alamu' comes from 'ilm' and that's 'information' and not 'distinction'. The word 'fasl' is more for distinguishment (yaumul fasl, can't seem to access openburhan but i think u know the verse).
