Who is this....a liar....an impostor?????
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Salam alaikum,
At least for me, I don't think there is an ulterior motive, but I just wonder why there weren't any Muslims in the US, UK, NZ or wherever who might have helped him out in hosting the forum... That's all. Nothing bad on either Layth or Mr. Rice, just wondering. I don't care either way. -)
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Wakas I knew of the registrant and the christchurch, new zealand thing ages ago. If anyone thinks this site is somehow run by a Christian with an ulterior motive, just look at the content advocating the Christian view... there is very little of it.
An anti-quranic-movement advocate would reply 'well, disparaging views towards hadith and sunna (and the quran as well) coupled with the freedom of christians to claim that the quran is a copy of the bible are allowed and so anyone seeking true islam will be turned away'. Its a good argument so only the steadfast will remain.
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Salam alaikum,
Its a good argument so only the steadfast will remain.
I'm not sure... some otherwise interested people would be turned away upon hearing that we are "just another sect, in bed with the Christians and Jews" and having others "warn" them about us. I am one of those people who was, until recently, wary of visiting this site! That was my own ignorance, I'll admit. But "Qurani" groups are lumped together with NOI, et al. in mainstream circles.
It just seems like a loss that those who are seeking true Islam are more likely to end up at a "Salafi" site than at this one.
You must know how new converts and those newly exploring Islam are very malleable, they are nearly completely dependent upon imams and scholars for their information... One word from a "shaikh" is enough to set them against a website (or a person, or a group) with no further discussion. I have personally been a victim of their "bans" and had people actually "prohibited" from talking to me!
It will take those timid seekers several years to read this site without fear, I think. At that point, much of the work is "unlearning" what they were previously taught. I am speaking from experience, as this is the process I am in currently. -)
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I'm not sure... some otherwise interested people would be turned away upon hearing that we are "just another sect, in bed with the Christians and Jews" and having others "warn" them about us. I am one of those people who was, until recently, wary of visiting this site! That was my own ignorance, I'll admit. But "Qurani" groups are lumped together with NOI, et al. in mainstream circles.
I think it was you I spoke to about this, the balance between 'intensity' and 'acceptability'.
10 years ago, had I come across free-minds, it would have scared me off. I had submission.org first, nice and easy and then it slowly built up.
At the moment, I'm of the opinion that I shouldn't be fishing for 'muslims' and compromising the message in order to be acceptable. People of 'non-muslim' background won't have a problem if Mecca wasn't in the equation.
It just seems like a loss that those who are seeking true Islam are more likely to end up at a "Salafi" site than at this one.
Good deduction, agreed.
You must know how new converts and those newly exploring Islam are very malleable, they are nearly completely dependent upon imams and scholars for their information... One word from a "shaikh" is enough to set them against a website (or a person, or a group) with no further discussion. I have personally been a victim of their "bans" and had people actually "prohibited" from talking to me!
Well, that's a paralysing situation, being in the power of a dogmatic shiekh.
It will take those timid seekers several years to read this site without fear, I think. At that point, much of the work is "unlearning" what they were previously taught. I am speaking from experience, as this is the process I am in currently.
It boils down to this in the end Does al-quraan touch you in such a way that traditional 'islam' pales in comparison? To me, 'traditional islam' is a meaningless phrase, devoid of substance because Allah Himself doesn't acknowledge such an entity. Al-quraan however is all about substance and to me, that's what counts
All the best in your process. Some things may be disturbing, please go slow.
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Salam alaikum,
Yes, we did have a conversation recently about this issue..
I don't think I'm advocating watering-down the message. The message is the strongest thing this site has going for it!
I'm saying this as neutrally as I can, knowing how 'traditionalists' think, that when someone comes to this site, he may stumble upon the information that this site is "owned" (as it appears) by a Christian. He may then look into the forums and see that people say "peace" instead of "salam", they say "God" instead of "Allah" -- you can see where I'm going?
This is ALL appearances and it actually means nothing nor does it affect the message, but the thing people judge religious websites on is the text content of it ... that's the reason I was initially disturbed by the fact that a "Christian" name is hosting the site. Only because of the appearance that it gives to those who might otherwise be interested. (Please understand, this is not my view, but coming from a traditionalist background, I know what most of them see when they look at a site.)
For an example, in the Paltalk chat that I administer, a man came in and was linked to this site, among his first clicks was to the page of links, where he found philosophers names (ibn Khaldun, ibn Sina, ibn Rushd) and reported to the room "This is a Sufi site... philosophy is NOT allowed in Islam..." -- this is the way they do things.
To answer your question of me, I agree Quran is it. I have no doubt about this. Quran is furqan...
"Blessed is the One who sent down the Statute Book to His servant, so he can be a warner to the world." - http//www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/25/2
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I don't think I'm advocating watering-down the message. The message is the strongest thing this site has going for it!
Good. Of course, with this position, comes what you're saying below...
I'm saying this as neutrally as I can, knowing how 'traditionalists' think, that when someone comes to this site, he may stumble upon the information that this site is "owned" (as it appears) by a Christian. He may then look into the forums and see that people say "peace" instead of "salam", they say "God" instead of "Allah" -- you can see where I'm going?
Yes, so again it boils down to deciding between intensity and acceptability. Sad that some people get hung up on superficialities though.
This is ALL appearances and it actually means nothing nor does it affect the message, but the thing people judge religious websites on is the text content of it ... that's the reason I was initially disturbed by the fact that a "Christian" name is hosting the site. Only because of the lappearance that it gives to those who might otherwise be interested. (Please understand, this is not my view, but coming from a traditionalist background, I know what most of them see when they look at a site.)
I understand and I appreciate your point. I can only say that whoever rejects the message because of this (or indeed any other reason), it's to his own loss.
For an example, in the Paltalk chat that I administer, a man came in and was linked to this site, among his first clicks was to the page of links, where he found philosophers names (ibn Khaldun, ibn Sina, ibn Rushd) and reported to the room "This is a Sufi site... philosophy is NOT allowed in Islam..." -- this is the way they do things.
Much easier to keep a cut-and-dry set of dogma, obviously. What did you reply to the chap?
To answer your question of me, I agree Quran is it. I have no doubt about this. Quran is furqan...
Excellent, then no 'scare' will be too great, inshaa Allah.
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Salam alaikum,
What did you reply to the chap?
Actually I believe he was one of the many who say what they want to say, call me a kafir and immediately leave the room. This is why you need to join me there someday. D With only a woman in the room, people (okay, men wink) will freely belittle and insult me. I've noticed that when others are in the room, it happens much less frequently.
Sad, but true.
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With only a woman in the room, people (okay, men ) will freely belittle and insult me. I've noticed that when others are in the room, it happens much less frequently.
Yeah God forbid a woman should run anything...and their slogan is 'islam liberates women' etc.
Tell them you reject hijab (even if you don't) and see how they react. Very indicative of their true views.
Seriously though, if they get lippy, ask them who the only 'revert' in al-quraan is.
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Salam alaikum,
Re "the hijab" - It's already come up a few times. Some men love and admire the hijab (headcover, more accurately) almost to the point of fetishism. "I love to see a woman wearing hijab" they say. I respond, that kind of defeats its purpose, doesn't it? As for oppressive undertones, they may be there...
Some immediately ask, "Do you wear hijab, sister?" They actually believe that my answer describes my piety.
As for the only revert mentioned in Quran, that would be the Queen of Saba', right? I never even thought of that as a point to bring up... -)
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Re "the hijab" - It's already come up a few times. Some men love and admire the hijab (headcover, more accurately) almost to the point of fetishism. "I love to see a woman wearing hijab" they say. I respond, that kind of defeats its purpose, doesn't it? As for oppressive undertones, they may be there...
Some immediately ask, "Do you wear hijab, sister?" They actually believe that my answer describes my piety.
For them, I suppose it does. When I hear these things, I feel I can never go back to Sunnism, it feels so wrong.
As for the only revert mentioned in Quran, that would be the Queen of Saba', right? I never even thought of that as a point to bring up...
Yes. A queen over men who asked her to decide but she in turn asked for advice. Of course, they'll say she gave up being a queen after submitting but the book never says that.
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I am really confused. Whats going on? Can Free-minds.org clarify this?
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It amazes me the degree to which people have closed their minds off with these rules that have no basis in the Quran
Some immediately ask, "Do you wear hijab, sister?" They actually believe that my answer describes my piety.
This reminds me of my fiancee, who wanted to do some charitable volunteering at a mosque in Cairo but they won't let her because she doesn't wear hijab.
It amazes me how people have turned off the logic centers in their brains I see smatterings of it everywhere in the accounts you all describe with people who criticize this site.
Calling people who believe that the Quran is the primary source of our Islamic knowledge cultists is like calling a mathmetician a who uses algebra in his work a mad scientist. It boggles my mind beyond belief.
Anyone who thinks saying God instead of Allah is somehow blasphemous is probably not an arabic speaker. Allah means God, if you are speaking in arabic, you say Allah, if english, you say God. Whats the big deal?
And so what if a christian hosts this site? The Quran says christians and jews are people of the book, Islam is an extension of their religions, even if we believe there have been changes to their holy texts.
Also, its an important message in the Quran to take, we do not have the right to judge other people. One thing that bothers me is how people talk about some people claim to be muslim and are not. Thats not fair, Allah is the judge. So I'd ask anyone who judges this group of folks here to reflect on that, and likewise, anyone here who likes to say all those other muslims are just posers, that is not your right to judge either. Just worry about your own faith, share your beliefs freely and peacefully, and leave the judging to God.
Thats just my two cents.
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Hi all,
This reminds me of my fiancee, who wanted to do some charitable volunteering at a mosque in Cairo but they won't let her because she doesn't wear hijab.
It amazes me how people have turned off the logic centers in their brains I see smatterings of it everywhere in the accounts you all describe with people who criticize this site.
Calling people who believe that the Quran is the primary source of our Islamic knowledge cultists is like calling a mathmetician a who uses algebra in his work a mad scientist. It boggles my mind beyond belief.
Anyone who thinks saying God instead of Allah is somehow blasphemous is probably not an arabic speaker. Allah means God, if you are speaking in arabic, you say Allah, if english, you say God. Whats the big deal?
And so what if a christian hosts this site? The Quran says christians and jews are people of the book, Islam is an extension of their religions, even if we believe there have been changes to their holy texts.
Also, its an important message in the Quran to take, we do not have the right to judge other people. One thing that bothers me is how people talk about some people claim to be muslim and are not. Thats not fair, Allah is the judge. So I'd ask anyone who judges this group of folks here to reflect on that, and likewise, anyone here who likes to say all those other muslims are just posers, that is not your right to judge either. Just worry about your own faith, share your beliefs freely and peacefully, and leave the judging to God. .I completely agree. infact word to word.
One of my friend's sis( no hijab and she was 15 then) attended an islamic conference(in India) which was on discussing Islam and even non muslims were invited to attend as they were trying to also preach islam to them. During a break, between the lectures, she and her friends were looking at couple of stalls with islamic books and articles. And some muslim bearded guy(one of those who conducted the conference) comes to her and preaches islam to her, clearly assuming she was not a muslim just becoz she did not wear hijab. While she corrected him, he apologised but said 'but then u dont wear hijab?'. It was like, how can u claim to be a muslim, then?
She was so offended and upset. Now I hear, she wears Hijab. shock
I think this is how the traditional muslims brain wash young minds into believing that u r a sinner if u think for urself and do what u believe, and that u should do as everyone does and should follow what they say.I agree on the judgement bit as well. We are not to judge people. Only Allah can and will judge us on the day of Judgemnt taking in to account every minute detail, and in the most just and fair manner.
Peace!
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I am really confused. Whats going on? Can Free-minds.org clarify this?
Clarify what BMBMM?
Read Layth reply.
Stay away from suspicions.
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One of my friend's sis( no hijab and she was 15 then) attended an islamic conference(in India) which was on discussing Islam and even non muslims were invited to attend as they were trying to also preach islam to them. During a break, between the lectures, she and her friends were looking at couple of stalls with islamic books and articles. And some muslim bearded guy(one of those who conducted the conference) comes to her and preaches islam to her, clearly assuming she was not a muslim just becoz she did not wear hijab. While she corrected him, he apologised but said 'but then u dont wear hijab?'. It was like, how can u claim to be a muslim, then?
She was so offended and upset. Now I hear, she wears Hijab. shock
I think this is how the traditional muslims brain wash young minds into believing that u r a sinner if u think for urself and do what u believe, and that u should do as everyone does and should follow what they say.That's unfortunate. Sadly, at 15 you may not have had reached the conclusion that you are qualified to read and understand the Quran for yourself. This is an overarching thing I noticed, a particular school of thought (or lack thereof) that preaches that the common person can not understand the Quran and therefore must rely on scholars who spend there lives studying it.
This sort of leads me to an observation I hate to admit that I've made, because it sounds somewhat racist and I don't mean to be, but I can not simply deny it any more. I have alot of Pakistani friends, and I love them to death, but I find that the vast majority of them (not all) have a particular style of belief that is centered around the methodology I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Namely, there are scholars who know better, you should follow what they say, and you shouldn't question it. Naturally, therefore, they are very focused on things like halal food, the hadith, sleeping with your feet pointing towards (or is it away?) from Mecca, so on and so forth. Things that are not central in my particular interpretation of Quran.
On the other side of the coin, most of my arab muslim friends tend to have a belief system more similar to mine. They will eat meat that is not labeled halal, and they are not concerned with some of the smaller things mentioned above.
Is my observation wrong? Is it unfair? Or is there something underlying the way that Islam spread through translation to the region that is now pakistan that led to this? I have always felt that people there are more 'ulama-centric'.
In any case, I am not trying to be judgemental, that would be hypocritical considering my last post, but I can't help but notice the difference in my life experiences. -
Also, its an important message in the Quran to take, we do not have the right to judge other people. One thing that bothers me is how people talk about some people claim to be muslim and are not. Thats not fair, Allah is the judge. So I'd ask anyone who judges this group of folks here to reflect on that, and likewise, anyone here who likes to say all those other muslims are just posers, that is not your right to judge either. Just worry about your own faith, share your beliefs freely and peacefully, and leave the judging to God.
Yes and no, I'd say. Share your beliefs freely and peacefully. This is da'waa. However when it comes to daily affairs, you need to see who to deal with and how. For example, al-quraan says those with Muhammadur Rasulullah is 'ashidda'u alal kuffar' (48/29)
Allah calls himself 'ahsanal haakimeen' (95/ or the better judge (roughly translated) so yes, He is the judge but at the same time he tells us AHKUM (judge, in the command form) bima anzala lahu/with what Allah has revealed and 'laa tattabiu ahwa'ahum' and do not their lusts..(5/4
So when you don't judge with the book of Allah, you're following lusts. And it's just on a legislative level either. It may be who you choose as friends, if they have kufr-based habits. It may be your choice of employment, if you're working for an oppressor.
Later on, if you have a domain which you run Quranically and if you invite people to judge with the book and they refuse, Allah even tells you who they really are (4/60-61). Once you judge with Allah's eyes, its easier to see who's muslim and who rejects His Laws. And its not judgement for its own sake. If you let these people into ranks, it's likely that they would betray the believers.
The laws of Allah penetrate reality and there's no escape.
This idea of 'judge not lest ye be judged' is from the bible and has no basis in al-quraan. Al-quraan doesn't propose an afterlife-centred religion. The deen is for now and so you can either choose Allah or at-taghoot for your legislator.
So Osiris, I think you're wrong. Allah is telling us to judge and to judge with his book.
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Hi all,
Also, its an important message in the Quran to take, we do not have the right to judge other people. One thing that bothers me is how people talk about some people claim to be muslim and are not. Thats not fair, Allah is the judge. So I'd ask anyone who judges this group of folks here to reflect on that, and likewise, anyone here who likes to say all those other muslims are just posers, that is not your right to judge either. Just worry about your own faith, share your beliefs freely and peacefully, and leave the judging to God.
I agree. We are not to judge people. We are only to judge wrong acts(pertaining to law and order) and punish them for the purpose of maintaining order and peace on earth.
I cant understand how some Quran believers justify verbal abuses against another, with verses from Quran. To say, we are doing it in anger, is alright. But to say God allows us to do so, is associating God with something so wrong, shock and that imho, is much worse than the act itself.
Peace!
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I agree. We are not to judge people. We are only to judge wrong acts(pertaining to law and order) and punish them for the purpose of maintaining order and peace on earth
Interesting semantic difference. However, it has no Quranic basis. To Allah, your act and what's in your heart is one and the same
047.029 Or do those in whose hearts is a disease, think that God will not bring to light all their rancour
047.030 Had We so wiled, We could have shown them up to thee, and thou shouldst have known them by their marks but surely thou wilt know them by the tone of their speech! And God knows all that ye do.So the idea of 'terrorists and criminals shouldnt be judged because we don't know what in their hearts' is unsound according to Al-Quraan. If you act like so, you are so.
p.s The son of Nuh is a good example of when you BECOME your acts. Allah says 'Verily HE is an unrighteous act'. (innaHU amalun ghairu saleh, 11/46)
I cant understand how some Quran believers justify verbal abuses against another, with verses from Quran. To say, we are doing it in anger, is alright. But to say God allows us to do so, is associating God with something so wrong, and that imho, is much worse than the act itself.
Well, then al-quraan itself needs censoring because it commands us to say
'Ya Ayyuhal Kafiroon'.If one is interested in judging by the Book of Allah, then he needs to say that to those people at some point. I for one am not going to tell Allah 'would u mind using more politically correct language'.
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Hi Osiris,
That's unfortunate. Sadly, at 15 you may not have had reached the conclusion that you are qualified to read and understand the Quran for yourself. This is an overarching thing I noticed, a particular school of thought (or lack thereof) that preaches that the common person can not understand the Quran and therefore must rely on scholars who spend there lives studying it.
Yeah, 15 is such a young age when one tends to fall for peer pressure than think sense for oneself. In this case, islamic tradionalist's pressure. Becoz at that age, u dont want to be left out or isolated from the group.
But most of these Imams focus on young minds and brain wash them.I saw on news quite sometime back, in a video clip, where a young iraqi boy of 14, is asked why he is a suicide bomber. He replied ''I want to go to heaven and have 70 virgins and so, I will do it.''
Thats the level of brainwashing that happens.
This sort of leads me to an observation I hate to admit that I've made, because it sounds somewhat racist and I don't mean to be, but I can not simply deny it any more. I have alot of Pakistani friends, and I love them to death, but I find that the vast majority of them (not all) have a particular style of belief that is centered around the methodology I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Namely, there are scholars who know better, you should follow what they say, and you shouldn't question it. Naturally, therefore, they are very focused on things like halal food, the hadith, sleeping with your feet pointing towards (or is it away?) from Mecca, so on and so forth. Things that are not central in my particular interpretation of Quran.
On the other side of the coin, most of my arab muslim friends tend to have a belief system more similar to mine. They will eat meat that is not labeled halal, and they are not concerned with some of the smaller things mentioned above.
Is my observation wrong? Is it unfair? Or is there something underlying the way that Islam spread through translation to the region that is now pakistan that led to this? I have always felt that people there are more 'ulama-centric'.
In any case, I am not trying to be judgemental, that would be hypocritical considering my last post, but I can't help but notice the difference in my life experiences.I'd say there are all kind of people everwhere.
But yeah, in places where arabic is not understood as its not their first language, every one do rely on the imams to give them interpretation of Quran. And so, basically, we end up with what the Imam thinks Quran says and not necessarily what the Quran says.As for the Halal issue, I came across that one too. A pakistani colleague once told me in kind of a mocking manner, that arabs believe that we can eat non halal meat(halal as in the act of butchering) by mentioning God's name. It was said in a tone, that u knw how arabs are.......(they believe in being suicide bombers as well, polygamy ........etc.) That was the first time I came to know such an interpretation even exsisted.At that point, I didnt know the real interpretation of those verses from Quran as well. But to be honest, I dont blame him for his opinion at all. He is just like many of us who were/are misguided.
So, I think the problem is people in general are misguided. The people who do know arabic and english should translate the Quran in a correct and accurate way for the people who dont know arabic. They should not put their own interpretations in the translation like many have seem to done, but instead merely translate arbic to english word to word without assuming any meaning by themselves.
THis would help people to understand Quran first hand by themselves.Peace!