Reg the "punishment for theft" in reply to Joe
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Hello
I read the first article before, it does have a few good points, the second one as well have good points however the mother of all points is presented by Joe and that is why I lean to believe his undestanding
What Joe suggested that if you cut off the hands of thieves as per 538 then 539 WILL STAND NO SENSE
Jow come someone who had his hand cut off redeem his life back if he wants to?
Well I reckon he/she can't do any of the followings
- can't work, or at least will be confined to some odd jobs that will require struggling with low pay
- can't eat with the hand any more, how this can be resolved then?
- can't even wipe the bum after pissing, i wonder how this can happen?
- can't write
- can't drive
- can't perform wudu
- can't help others
Well, if i keep thinking I reckon i will have endless list, the hand is the so important that it is far easier to live without both legs than living without both hands
You see, if you are going to cut off the hands of thieves you might as well kill him because he/she will surly have no decent life left and verse 539 will have no sense whatsoever
Finally please don't forget that the Quran warned us not to CUT our uteruses, would that really meant to cut it off? of course not, rather it was used as a metaphor to express the importance of caring for the realtives
I have to say this also, in the arab world we use the word cut to express many things that does not really meant cut off, for example someone who hides on the roads waiting to ambush someone and rob him is called "Qatei Tariq" " " literally means "the one who cuts the roads" but in reality it means a thug who " "`"cuts the roads"
I will go for Joe with this one
Allah knows best for sure
Peace be with all
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What Joe suggested that if you cut off the hands of thieves as per 538 then 539 WILL STAND NO SENSE
Jow come someone who had his hand cut off redeem his life back if he wants to?
Well I reckon he/she can't do any of the followings
- can't work, or at least will be confined to some odd jobs that will require struggling with low pay
- can't eat with the hand any more, how this can be resolved then?
- can't even wipe the bum after pissing, i wonder how this can happen?
- can't write
- can't drive
- can't perform wudu
- can't help others
salam.
the punishment in the hereafter will be far worse than this . if he repents afterwards ,he will be forgiven in the hereafter . -
What Joe suggested that if you cut off the hands of thieves as per 538 then 539 WILL STAND NO SENSE
Jow come someone who had his hand cut off redeem his life back if he wants to?
Well I reckon he/she can't do any of the followings
- can't work, or at least will be confined to some odd jobs that will require struggling with low pay
- can't eat with the hand any more, how this can be resolved then?
- can't even wipe the bum after pissing, i wonder how this can happen?
- can't write
- can't drive
- can't perform wudu
- can't help others
salam.
the punishment in the hereafter will be far worse than this . if he repents afterwards ,he will be forgiven in the hereafter .Thank you mate
Yes I understand this but what I'm saying is if you cut someone's hand at the age say 20, that person will have no life left, even the Quran stressed how imporant the hand is and was even used to represent the whole person
also bro, the punishment on the judgment day is only confirmed to the mishrikoon and the unbelievers, ie. they will never be forgiven unless Allah wishes, on the other hand Allah told us that He can forgive ALL SINS except shirk
so how we can be so sure that someone who is a believer but commited Kaba'er will be punished by Allah for ceraitn? in fact that person can still be punished by Allah in this life and no need to wait till the judgment day, I believe any believer will be entitled to what Allah told us about the possibility of forgving all sins except shirk.
The main problem here is 539 , it does not say that "Ina Allah Yatub Alaihe" that it will happen in the hearafter, in fact it happens all the time that Allah Yatub on the repenters
Bro I'm not arguing this, I;m just stating why I feel comfortable to go with Joe understanding, also what makes me feel peaceful regarding this understanding is the fact the word "Qataa" which is to cut is widely used as a metaphor in the arabic language and possibly many other langauges
I have given an example as a thug whom we call "Road Cutter", we also describe the ones who don't help their relatives as "Uterus Cutters"
other examples like electericity / communications and possibly more
finally what I saw from the taliban by abusing this punishment, and knowing that they are confused muslims, I never felt that cutting the hands of thieves is within the spirit of Islam, i tried to convince myself to believe that should be the punsihment but I failed for years
peace man
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Previous discussion here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3399
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also bro, the punishment on the judgment day is only confirmed to the mishrikoon and the unbelievers, ie. they will never be forgiven unless Allah wishes, on the other hand Allah told us that He can forgive ALL SINS except shirk
so how we can be so sure that someone who is a believer but commited Kaba'er will be punished by Allah for ceraitn? in fact that person can still be punished by Allah in this life and no need to wait till the judgment day, I believe any believer will be entitled to what Allah told us about the possibility of forgving all sins except shirk.
if a persons sins are greater than his good works then he will go to hell . but if his sin , of theft for example, is forgiven by God then that reduces the amount of his sins . he has less chances of going to hell then . if he is not an idolator i.e .
The main problem here is 539 , it does not say that "Ina Allah Yatub Alaihe" that it will happen in the hearafter, in fact it happens all the time that Allah Yatub on the repenters
the sin will be forgiven in this life if he repents . then he will not be punished in teh hereafter .
Bro I'm not arguing this, I;m just stating why I feel comfortable to go with Joe understanding, also what makes me feel peaceful regarding this understanding is the fact the word "Qataa" which is to cut is widely used as a metaphor in the arabic language and possibly many other langauges
I have given an example as a thug whom we call "Road Cutter", we also describe the ones who don't help their relatives as "Uterus Cutters"
other examples like electericity / communications and possibly more
i wont argue much either . i already have in the previous thread . i have tried to explain in my article why the symbolic hands understanding is not right .
salam.
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if a persons sins are greater than his good works then he will go to hell . but if his sin , of theft for example, is forgiven by God then that reduces the amount of his sins . he has less chances of going to hell then . if he is not an idolator i.e .
I agree however someone can repenet without that severe punishment being incured and sure the repentence may be accepted by Allah in this life, you see the verse didn't "Cut the hands" and in the story of prophet Yusuf "the same words almost "Cut theor hands", why on earth they understood it differently? if the hands is the one that stole and that is why we need to cut it, why not the verse does not meat stop that hand from reaching, imprison them, would you consider that a thief who is in jail for 5 years, had his hand cut for 5 years? i mean can he steal outside of jail again?, he may steal inside jail but my question is outside where the good community members are.
539 will actually confirm this understanding, if they reform inside jail or whever restrictions is incured on them so their hand can not reach to steal
The main problem here is 539 , it does not say that "Ina Allah Yatub Alaihe" that it will happen in the hearafter, in fact it happens all the time that Allah Yatub on the repenters
the sin will be forgiven in this life if he repents .
sorry bro no gurantee that it will be forgiven, we only hope it will be
then he will not be punished in teh hereafter .
as well bro, no gurantee that it will happen for a believer
Bro I'm not arguing this, I;m just stating why I feel comfortable to go with Joe understanding, also what makes me feel peaceful regarding this understanding is the fact the word "Qataa" which is to cut is widely used as a metaphor in the arabic language and possibly many other langauges
I have given an example as a thug whom we call "Road Cutter", we also describe the ones who don't help their relatives as "Uterus Cutters"
other examples like electericity / communications and possibly more
i wont argue much either . i already have in the previous thread ( http//free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50984&sid=e53aad88e36dbf1145a30399232d13a0#50984 ). i have tried to explain in my article why the symbolic hands understanding is not right .
salam.
Ok bro I will have a read
Salam
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Bro Saladin
I forget to tell you this, but please do not consider it as I'm arguing
Cutting the hands in Yusuf story "sura no 12" MUST be understood as cutting the hands literally because The women were given A KNIFE in their hands, ie. the verse stated that there was a KNIFE in the story
in 538 I wonder why they understand it as cutting the hands with a knife or even inflicting a mark on it with a knife while the verse never mentioned a knife as it did in sura no 12
peace
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if a persons sins are greater than his good works then he will go to hell . but if his sin , of theft for example, is forgiven by God then that reduces the amount of his sins . he has less chances of going to hell then . if he is not an idolator i.e .
I agree however someone can repenet without that severe punishment being incured and sure the repentence may be accepted by Allah in this life, you see the verse didn't "Cut the hands" and in the story of prophet Yusuf "the same words almost "Cut theor hands", why on earth they understood it differently? if the hands is the one that stole and that is why we need to cut it, why not the verse does not meat stop that hand from reaching, imprison them, would you consider that a thief who is in jail for 5 years, had his hand cut for 5 years? i mean can he steal outside of jail again?, he may steal inside jail but my question is outside where the good community members are.
i dont understand what u r saying . maybe my poor english ?
the sin will be forgiven in this life if he repents .
sorry bro no gurantee that it will be forgiven, we only hope it will be
then he will not be punished in teh hereafter .
as well bro, no gurantee that it will happen for a believer
God says that in the koran . and why do we need guarantee for . i dont think this arguement proves any point about theft punishment .
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Bro Saladin
I forget to tell you this, but please do not consider it as I'm arguing
Cutting the hands in Yusuf story "sura no 12" MUST be understood as cutting the hands literally because The women were given A KNIFE in their hands, ie. the verse stated that there was a KNIFE in the story
in 538 I wonder why they understand it as cutting the hands with a knife or even inflicting a mark on it with a knife while the verse never mentioned a knife as it did in sura no 12
peace
salam bro .
good thing that u r not arguing , because i dont consider this a good arguement . no offence . -
i dont understand what u r saying . maybe my poor english ?
lol
no bro, it is my stupid typing that made it hard to understand, but do not worry man, i'm reading those 6 pages thread now
the sin will be forgiven in this life if he repents .
sorry bro no gurantee that it will be forgiven, we only hope it will be
then he will not be punished in teh hereafter .
as well bro, no gurantee that it will happen for a believer
God says that in the koran . and why do we need guarantee for . i dont think this arguement proves any point about theft punishment .
possibly I expressed what I wanted to say in the wrong way, I mean humans CAN NOT KNOW what God will do with them, even the prophet said the same in the Quran
the point is, cutting the hands is way too much or a punishment for that crime, because if my hands are cut, i will never have a decent life as well all the world may look at me as a thief even after I have paid the tough life long penalty of loosing the hand, it is going to be a tough life indeed and for the rest of it
impossible bro that this is Islam, the only historical evidence of this punishment is the hadith and while I'm not a hadith rejector, i will never accept those hadiths regarding cutting the hands of a theif, even though those hadiths talk about what the Quran is talking about "Theft", ie. they have a bit of merit, yet they will fail the common sense test which is solely the spirit if Islam as well 539
Peace be with you
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the point is, cutting the hands is way too much or a punishment for that crime, because if my hands are cut, i will never have a decent life as well all the world may look at me as a thief even after I have paid the tough life long penalty of loosing the hand, it is going to be a tough life indeed and for the rest of it
i will let the quran decide what right or wrong ,and what is too much or too less . like when i found out that the quranic punishment of theft is cutting hands , i accepted it , because quran is the criterion . our thoughts and opinions about too much or too less are not the criterion . thats how i study . just telling .