I'll be back with the Sun
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Peace idolfree
D
what are your views on community social/bonding between the submitters, we dont seem to have the social interaction that traditional Islam provised i.e. 5 times salaat, Hajj, Eid Prayers,It seems Your interpretation Of Gods path is more individual e.g. meditaion (i knpw you sometimes might be doing it in groups) and to do with indivudual reflection etc.
If we are using symbols from ancient egypt, we can surely also take them from traditonal islam too
i.e bowing, prostrating to God (very symbolic of humility)
Facing the same direction in Prayer (symbol of focus and direction in life)
Hajj ( symbil of unity, equality, journey and system of God. spinning around the stone cube = atom rotation , solar system rotation) all verifiable with observations of nature.
surely these things are valid or void based upon the meanings we give and derive from them?Can they be used as a part of the system of submitting to God?
And could it possibly be the intention of the personality of Muhamad ( i know u not interested in him as a human) to have allowed or brought these rituals for their symbolic power which can be understood by both literate and illiterate, Hajj, salaat are rich in syblism whether you observe or participate etc ?just some thoughts ( in process of verification/validation)
whaddya think?
D
peace -
Peace be upon you TMK,
what are your views on community social/bonding between the submitters, we dont seem to have the social interaction that traditional Islam provised i.e. 5 times salaat, Hajj, Eid Prayers,
That social culture of traditional "Islam" was based on the wrong foundation, therefore it is an unhealthy social culture. I personally have found people who "bow" and I "bow" with them. It is not a social culture based on the religion "Islam", but it is a culture based on peacefulness and submission to the laws of God, which is what it is all about. Further, once we fully understand concepts like salaat, hajj, etc in an objective manner, then we can get behind it and promote it greatly, then we will have the social culture that many of us have had to give up in order to follow the God. Many of us have changed our QIBLA and passed the test. That is a great thing. Remember though, the examples we are given don't realy give the picture of a great social stucture, they were a minority.
It seems Your interpretation Of Gods path is more individual e.g. meditaion (i knpw you sometimes might be doing it in groups) and to do with indivudual reflection etc.
I hope to show objectively soon that meditation is what salaat is all about. It is common among many cultures and certainly WORKS, but the "Koran" says there was a generation who lost thier salaat. BUt I will reserve that for a time when I can give sufficeint evidence.
My point is that once we can prove the concepts objectively, then there should be no argument and we can unite under truth.
If we are using symbols from ancient egypt, we can surely also take them from traditonal islam too
i.e bowing, prostrating to God (very symbolic of humility)
Facing the same direction in Prayer (symbol of focus and direction in life)
Hajj ( symbil of unity, equality, journey and system of God. spinning around the stone cube = atom rotation , solar system rotation) all verifiable with observations of nature.
surely these things are valid or void based upon the meanings we give and derive from them?Lets take them one at a time.
bowing, prostrating to God (very symbolic of humility)
Bowing is humility, prostrating is hearng and obeying.
Facing the same direction in Prayer (symbol of focus and direction in life)
This is nowhere in Koran so I cannot agree with you here.
Hajj ( symbil of unity, equality, journey and system of God. spinning around the stone cube = atom rotation , solar system rotation) all verifiable with observations of nature.
This is also no where in "Koran". Hajj means debate, there is nothing to suggest a going to Mecca and walking around a stone. I cannot agree with you here.
Can they be used as a part of the system of submitting to God?
How so? What benefit would they have to changing behavior? For example, the ritual I took part in is a way of stimulating the brain to produce gamma waves which help you to get to a state of TRANCE, which is how we make something stick in our memory, in order to REMEMBER(key word).
How would walking around a stone cube, trying not to get trampled, or women trying not to get felt up be of benefit?
And could it possibly be the intention of the personality of Muhamad ( i know u not interested in him as a human) to have allowed or brought these rituals for their symbolic power which can be understood by both literate and illiterate, Hajj, salaat are rich in syblism whether you observe or participate etc ?
just some thoughts ( in process of verification/validation)
I respect your process of verification. To continue, the rituals of traditional "ISLAM" are no where to be found in the book called "KORAN", so we have to start there. Remember, the goal is behavior shaping, but we first have to identify what is being told to us, and agin, none of the traditional rituals are part of "Koran".
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Peace be upon you,
To be honest, I dont know the science behind it. I found teh following article among many others that can give some insight
http//www.earthdrum.com/whydrum.htm
It is interesting that many cultures use the drum, African, Asian, Indian, American Indian, etc
I was watching a show last night called "Mystic Iran The unsees world'where the people were having a ritual with a drum that looked like a large tambourine, I cannot remember the name of it. The groups were Zoroastrians and Sufi Dervishes. Drums and meditation(trance) seem to be a common theme among mankind.
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Peace be upon you,
Here's another article
From "The Healing Power of the Drum" by Robert Lawrence Friedman... he quotes Layne Redmond, author of "When the Drummers Were Women."
"One of the most powerful aspects of drumming and the reason that people have done it since the beginning of being human is that is changes people's consciousness. Through rhythmic repetition of ritual sounds, the body, brain and the nervous system are energized and transformed. When a group of people play a rhythm for an extended period of time, their brain waves become entrained to the rhythm and they have a shared brain wave state. The longer the drumming goes on, the more powerful the entrainment becomes. It's really the oldest holy communion. All of the oldest known religious rites used drumming as part of the shared religious experience.
It is interesting to look at these ancient drumming practices from the perspective of the latest scientific research into the functioning of the brain. Using electroencephalographs, scientists can measure the number of energy waves per second pulsing through the brain. A system of classifying states of consciousness according to the frequencies of these waves was created.
Normal outwardly focused attention generates beta waves which vibrate from 14 to 40 cycles per second. When awareness shifts to an internal focus, our brain slows down into the more rhythmical waves of alpha, vibrating at 7-14 waves per second. Alpha is defined by relaxation and centering. Dropping down to 4-7 cycles per second the brain enters the theta state in which there is an interfacing of conscious and unconscious processes, producing hypnologic dream-like imagery at the threshold of sleep. Theta is the course of sudden mystical insights and creative solutions to complex situations and is marked by physical and emotional healing. People with a preponderance of theta brainwaves are also able to learn and process much more information than normal. Without some form of intensive training it is hard to stay awake in theta--one slips quickly down into delta. This is the slowest brainwave frequency, 1-5 cycles per second, the state of unconsciousness or deep sleep.
The brain is divided into two hemispheres that are basically split in their control of the thinking process. The right brain functions as the creative, visual, aural and emotional center. The left brain is the rational, logical, analytical and verbal administrator. Generally, either the right or left brain dominates in cycles lasting from 30 minutes to 3 hours. While one hemisphere is dominant, the memories, skills, and information of the other hemisphere are far less available, residing in a subconscious or unconscious realm. Not only do the right and left brain operate in different modes, they also usually operate in different brain wave rhythms. The right brain may be generating alpha waves while the left brain is in the beta state. Or both can be generating the same type of brain waves, but remain out of sync with each other. But in states of intense creativity, deep meditation or under the influence of rhythmic sound, both hemispheres may becomes entrained to the same rhythm. This state of unified whole brain functioning is called hemispheric synchronization or the awakened mind.
As the two hemispheres begin to resonate to a single rhythm, a sense of clarity and heightened awareness arises. The individual is able to draw on both the left and the right hemispheres simultaneously. The mind becomes sharper, more lucid, synthesizing much more rapidly than normal, and emotions are easier to understand and transform. The conscious and unconscious levels of the mind interface and integrate more easily. Insight quickens and creative intuition flourishes, giving one the ability to visualize and bring into manifestation ideas more easily. An expanded, more complete and integrated state of consciousness comes into existence. Scientists believe that hemispheric synchronization may be the neurological basis of transcendent states of consciousness.
Research has shown that rhythmic music is one of the most effective ways to induce brainwave synchronization. Musical comprehension is a joint function of left and right brains and rhythmic sound can drive the brain waves into alpha or theta states. Many ancient religious practices seem to have originated in attempts to induce the transcendental experiences of hemispheric synchronization. Traditional drumming rituals appear to be efficient techniques for entraining the right and left brains, leading to emotionally and physically healing experiences."
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Peace
Remember, the goal is behavior shaping, but we first have to identify what is being told to us, and agin, none of the traditional rituals are part of "Koran".
I agree with the above however the traditionalists will tell you that the rituals do change behaviour from their experience, which is perfectly valid. Many do feel at peace after ritual prayer and also hajj, it makes them very spiritual and God conciousness. As far as the rituals not being part of Koran so far from my observation it is a matter of interpretation.
The very existence of such a variety of interpretations from people on this forum never mind people outside suggest that it is not as clear cut as one might suggest.
They are people here that have very similar views but will actually differ on the ritual thing. the very fact that these are God aloners etc makes it clear that maybe we need to be flexible in our understanding.
Simply put if people wish to bow and prostrate and gets them closer to God and makes them more pious, why stop them, becasue the Quran is flexible (words can have multiple meanings)on these things.
Its seems to me that what God abhors the most is rigidity, the quran is will always make you think becasue it not a rigid manual, more of a thought provoker.
Surely we should adopt the way that will move things forward for beleivers in GOd, the more variety and interpretaions we have the more richer Islam will be for it.
Only thing that should be banned is saying this is the only way
the quran always seems to expose our ignorance by not letting us settle into our comfort zones of i think i have found the truth, becasue they would be no moral progress, development otherwise. Just when we think we ve cracked it we find different angle and the ego has to be conqured, i think this is the nature of the test to constatly declare "i dont know" so that we may submit instead of "i know" which leads to arrogance.peace
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Peace tmk and all. Well said tmk. we can be tolerant and understanding of other peoples interpretations,they may have better understandings than me,or a new angle to the picture. I think we should constantly be 'open' to new ideas/angles which can lead to benefit.
Peace. -
Peace be upon you TMK,
I agree with the above however the traditionalists will tell you that the rituals do change behaviour from their experience, which is perfectly valid.
Sure, they will say that, but when we lok at them still being LED by the emotional nature in man, then we see it has not worked. I do not doubt thier sincerity, but the effects speak clearly. Now there are people within all "religions" that do change thier behavior, because the power of BELIEF is very strong, but the major factor is that most people dont realize that thier goal is to transcend emotions and to program thier spirits with the Divine Truths.
Many do feel at peace after ritual prayer and also hajj, it makes them very spiritual and God conciousness.
Sure, but after it wears off they go back to following the animal nature(emotions). They obey the snake in the Garden all day long, which in turn destroys thier health.
As far as the rituals not being part of Koran so far from my observation it is a matter of interpretation.
Its always a matter of interpretation, but some interpretations dont fit in all occurences, thats when some start to flip the meanings of words to fit.
The very existence of such a variety of interpretations from people on this forum never mind people outside suggest that it is not as clear cut as one might suggest.
People are on different levels, there will always be different interpretations, bu truth stands clear from falsehood.
They are people here that have very similar views but will actually differ on the ritual thing.
Thats because most dont know the PURPOSE of ritual.
the very fact that these are God aloners etc makes it clear that maybe we need to be flexible in our understanding.
We should be flexible in the respect that we should always be open to Wisdom, but the God's Law is FIRM, just like mixing 2 hydogens and 1 oxygen gives you water.
Simply put if people wish to bow and prostrate and gets them closer to God and makes them more pious, why stop them, becasue the Quran is flexible (words can have multiple meanings)on these things.
If you mean bow and prostrate like the Dervishes of Iran who go into trance with the drum, then I have no problem because the TRANCE state is what we need to get to in order to BURN the truth into our Spirit(nafs), it is the state achieved when the "day" and "night" merge.
Its seems to me that what God abhors the most is rigidity, the quran is will always make you think becasue it not a rigid manual, more of a thought provoker.
Yes, it provokes you to think and reflect about the UNCHANGING LAW. We can go through the "Koran" and through the universe and prove without a doubt that the LAW is UNFLEXIBLE.
Surely we should adopt the way that will move things forward for beleivers in GOd, the more variety and interpretaions we have the more richer Islam will be for it.
No, I cannot agree with you on that nor does "Koran" support that. We are to listen to all interpretations, YES, but then we follow the BEST, not follow all of them.
Only thing that should be banned is saying this is the only way
the quran always seems to expose our ignorance by not letting us settle into our comfort zones of i think i have found the truth, becasue they would be no moral progress, development otherwise.It is only when we have settled on a shaky foundation that we are stirred to move again, when we finally become firmly rooted on verifyable truth, then we can settle down.
Just when we think we ve cracked it we find different angle and the ego has to be conqured
Sure, that happens often, but that should not continue happening, we have to study seriously so we can get to the verifyable truth. If yuo expect that you will never understand, why are you wasting your time?
i think this is the nature of the test to constatly declare "i dont know" so that we may submit instead of "i know" which leads to arrogance.
Submit to what? If you dont KNOW, what are you submitting to, the fact that you are guessing? The God wants us to move from belief to KNOWING (verifyable) and to certainty.
(360) The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
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Peace be upon you Enquirer,
we can be tolerant and understanding of other peoples interpretations,they may have better understandings than me,or a new angle to the picture. I think we should constantly be 'open' to new ideas/angles which can lead to benefit.
Absolutely, we are always to listen to all opinions and to hajja(debate/reason) with each other in order to forge our way to the STABLE, VERIFYABLE truth. That which is metaphorized as building on a strong foundation, not a sandy cliff. That which is metaphorized as a trwee with deep roots rather than a tree not rooted that blow over with the slightest wind.
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Peace idol-free. Just a point of clarification so i can understand one of your points please. when we reach a stable/firm interpretation,is that an absolute or relative truth? And can anything more be added to a stable truth? And could we have made a a mistake in coming to what we think is a stable truth? (by the way 2 hydrogens plus two oxygens also equals water,its an isotope called heavy water). Sorry for asking so many questions at once!
Asking respectfully,and to gain benefit,peace. -
Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Just a point of clarification so i can understand one of your points please. when we reach a stable/firm interpretation,is that an absolute or relative truth?
A stable understanding is the same as saying if you jump naked off building X, you will plunge towards the earth. We are speaking of LAWS. These are things that are verifyable/proveable.
And can anything more be added to a stable truth?
I am not sure what you mean, give an example we can work with.
And could we have made a a mistake in coming to what we think is a stable truth?
Not if it is verified.
by the way 2 hydrogens plus two oxygens also equals water,its an isotope called heavy water
And you get the same "water" everytime, correct? Its a LAW.
Sorry for asking so many questions at once!
This is what we are here to do. I do not ask anyone to accept what I say without question.
Asking respectfully,and to gain benefit,peace.
Peace to you as well.
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peace idol-free. By a new angle to a stable truth i mean eg.. 2 hydrogens plus 1 oxygen equals water= 'stable truth',the other angle is that 2 hydrogens plus 2 oxygens also equals water(heavy water). Also the speed of sound is approx 750mph at sea-level(stable) but 650 at high altitude(a new angle). I hope this clarifies what i am trying to say about different angles to 'stable truths'!
Peace. -
Peace be upon you,
peace idol-free. By a new angle to a stable truth i mean eg.. 2 hydrogens plus 1 oxygen equals water= 'stable truth',the other angle is that 2 hydrogens plus 2 oxygens also equals water(heavy water). Also the speed of sound is approx 750mph at sea-level(stable) but 650 at high altitude(a new angle). I hope this clarifies what i am trying to say about different angles to 'stable truths'!
Yes, I understand what you mean now. So the direct answer to your first question is that the Truth of a matter is found in the RELATIONSHIP of one thing with the other, something that I have said numerous times but cant seem to stick into my Spirit(nafs) so that I am reminded of this when I need to be.
So , there are statements that are facts, but when we deal with the relationships of one thing to the other, then we are talking about Truth. Thanks for the clarification.
So lets bring this in the realm of behavior, which is what we are really interested in right?
A fact would be that jim and john have sex with each other, but the TRUTH is that this behavior is wrong, because the penis was created to go in the vagina, and this is VISABLY verifyable.
Sorry for the confusion, I was unstable myself until you corrected me with your last example and reminded me of a piece of was missing.
Please let me know your response.
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Peace idol-free. I think i get what you are saying! Its made me realise that we have to probe deep to understand what a person has said and be tolerant and keen for clarification. To be honest ,though i think there are 'truths' ,there are also an innumerable amount of angles to these truths. Sometimes i think that when people dis-agree it is just another angle or side to the same truth(not always!)that they are debating. I think some angles or applications of truth are 'subjective' and can either be verified or not(depending on our current knowledge/state of mind),but this does not stop them from necessarily being facts-,they may be verified in the future. However, i do agree, it is mainly about 'behaviour shaping' and using our free-will and learning to achieve 'beneficial' behaviour,and this is an ongoing process.(maybe classed as 'salat?')
Im enjoying the 'dialogue'. ) Peace. -
Peace mehdi. By behaviour shaping i mean trying to do the 'right thing' in any given circumstances.(by deciding/contemplating). The shaping is done by the individual in conjuction with 'input' from others. Of course there is a subjective element to what is 'right/beneficial'
peace. -
Peace be upon you Enquirer,
I am also enjoying the dialouge D
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Peace idolfree
the rituals of traditional "ISLAM" are no where to be found in the book called "KORAN", so we have to start there. Remember, the goal is behavior shaping, but we first have to identify what is being told to us, and agin, none of the traditional rituals are part of "Koran".
I agree with the above however the traditionalists will tell you that the rituals do change behaviour from their experience, which is perfectly valid. Many do feel at peace after ritual prayer and also hajj, it makes them very spiritual and God conciousness. As far as the rituals not being part of Koran so far from my observation it is a matter of interpretation.
The very existence of such a variety of interpretations from people on this forum never mind people outside suggest that it is not as clear cut as one might suggest.
They are people here that have very similar views but will actually differ on the ritual thing. the very fact that these are God aloners etc makes it clear that maybe we need to be flexible in our understanding.
Simply put if people wish to bow and prostrate and gets them closer to God and makes them more pious, why stop them, becasue the Quran is flexible (words can have multiple meanings)on these things.
Its seems to me that what God abhors the most is rigidity, the quran will always make you think becasue it not a rigid manual, more of a thought provoker.
Surely we should adopt the way that will move things forward for beleivers in GOd, the more variety and interpretaions we have the more richer Islam will be for it.
Only thing that should be banned is saying this is the only way
the quran always seems to expose our ignorance by not letting us settle into our comfort zones of i think i have found the truth, becasue they would be no moral progress, development otherwise. Just when we think we ve cracked it we find different angle and the ego has to be conqured, i think this is the nature of the test to constatly declare "i dont know" so that we may submit instead of "i know" which leads to arrogance.peace
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Only thing that should be banned is saying this is the only way
This is why I find Free Minds such a good place because there are always people here who say the most important thing! The dangers of this is the only way mentality is pretty obivious!
Good TMK! Good chap!
the quran always seems to expose our ignorance by not letting us settle into our comfort zones of i think i have found the truth, becasue they would be no moral progress, development otherwise. Just when we think we ve cracked it we find different angle and the ego has to be conqured, i think this is the nature of the test to constatly declare "i dont know" so that we may submit instead of "i know" which leads to arrogance.
peaceYes TMK, it is our EGO that has to be conquered. It is the EGO that blinds us into realising the Truth about GOD. We are all guilty of the Egotism but we also try to overcome it with understanding..."I don't know" is a declaration of humility before God...
Regards,
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Peace be upon you,
so it sounds like this "behavoir shaping" = mode of control..
Yes, self control, also known as discipline. Thats what all these spiritual teachings are about, behavior shaping. Do you disagree?
what is right and beneficial can/may be based on certain circumstance...
Sure, but lets stick to clear examples, lets not leave it open. Lets break down the ritual and talk about how it could be beneficial.
as an example... why not... i'll say this whole thread can be as benefical as a pile of cow dung...
while some may ask.. why i would say that?
Sure. Some today still think sticks turn to snakes also
what kind of behaviour is this? or make up in their own minds which includes input from others.. aswell as their enviroment and the the whole world around them to come up with different scenarios as to behaviour etc.. always trying to shape that ol behavoir thing! hold fast to try and mold it into what the "perception" of right and wrong... but where does this perception come from?
Comes from thier conditioning, but when we cultivate PEACE and the ability to OBSERVE and REFLECT, we gain wisdom.
Allah tells us
Surah 17 (The Night Journey)
- Say to My servants that they should (only) say those things that are best for Satan doth sow dissensions among them For Satan is to man an avowed enemy.
Yes, shayteen(emotions) are what seperate one from the other, Iblis was JEALOUS, what is JEALOUSY?
Quote
I agree with the above however the traditionalists will tell you that the rituals do change behaviour from their experience, which is perfectly valid.IF1
Sure, they will say that , but when we lok at them still being LED by the emotional nature in man, then we see it has not worked.for Satan doth sow dissensions among them For Satan is to man an avowed enemy. -1753
and the fact that this whole thread can be beneficial as a pile of cow dung! is the best and most beneficial thing to say
and it's not emotions that are at fault... perhaps it's the person who wields them! emotions can be beutiful... useful... if one is of understanding...
Yes, emotions were given to us for our benefit, I have always maintained this, but they are to follow, never to LEAD, thats the difference and thats what Solomon teaches us. I have always maintained this.
maybe because we go off the experience of others instead of our own.. or gather information like a homless man gathers useless material good in a shopping cart... we loose the use of our own "free-mind" ... and soul..
so next time you gonna go away .. please remember
- You Always Run Away Why Not This Time Just Stay Away
http//www.outrecords.com/out_records_mp3/The_Winter_Transmitter/The_Winter_Transmitter_mp3/02_You_Always_Run_Away.mp3
^^ the above music is a result of wielding emotion of a close family nature...
if you disagree and still believe emotion is a bad thing.. please tell me of your personal experience with the drumming... and lets see what it was which lifts the Soul Higher towards God?
Well, I didnt bother to respond to each statement above as I normally do, because I see the end result is that you are stating I think emotions are bad. suggest you search my posts and you will find no such thing stated. We cannot do ANYTHING without emotions (energy in motion), that is what MOVES us, allows us to manifest our thoughts into action. The problem is that the majority of the people FOLLOW emotions, rather than make them our servants, as Solomon teaches. I don know how many time I have said that. I hope I have cleared up your confusion regarding my position.
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Peace be upon you,
you know cow dung can be rich...
It is also WASTE MATTER and STINKS, so I would disagree with using that as a metaphor for "rich", especially when we have something as fantastic as SOIL