Don't Love The Messenger? Has FM.org Gone Too Far?!

mquran

Salaamun alaikum ppl,

I'm of the opinion that love or 'habba' is only for Allah as 2/165 states. There's 'wadda' or 'attachment' which is meant for spouses (e.g. 30/21), family etc but habba's only reserved for Allah.

For believers, an-nabiy is closer to them than thier own souls (33/6)

I enjoy studying the historical Muhammad ibn Abdullah but also the historical Jeshu of Nazareth but I can't say I feel love for them. Having said that, there's much love from me which still isn't for Allah.

KGB

Salaam Alleikum MQuran

The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) love is very deep rooted iin my heart and get streghthen after visting Medina. You very well know my limitations my poor Arabic. The following verse I can quote to justify my love for Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

3356 God and His angels send blessings on the Prophet O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

I am sure someone will point out the following verse.

3343 He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers.

My understanding is Angels are doing their duty as commanded by Allah Taala. We must do our duty by send blessings to Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

mquran

The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) love is very deep rooted iin my heart and get streghthen after visting Medina. You very well know my limitations my poor Arabic. The following verse I can quote to justify my love for Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

I understand where you're coming from and how can I deny your personal experience. My arabic is limited as well, its only I've done some research into this.

My understanding of 'yusalluna alan nabi' is that Allah and His malaika give focus and energy upon the rasul, almost a spiritual energy. 'yusallu' is the same root as 'salla' and 'as-salaat'. Those who believe are required to do the same. And an-nabi is told to do the same for us. In my view, this isn't possible with Muhammad ibn Abdullah as he's passed on.

Whatever the case is, I respect your view and if your love for Rasulullah is translated into a devotion to his teachings, good for you

NoProgressive

As Salaam ALiakum Mquran,

Salaamun alaikum ppl,

I'm of the opinion that love or 'habba' is only for Allah as 2/165 states. There's 'wadda' or 'attachment' which is meant for spouses (e.g. 30/21), family etc but habba's only reserved for Allah.

Okay I am missing something here. No where in that verse does it say, "love is only for Allah", could you please tell me how you got that conclusion from 2/165. The verse is clearly tlaking about love in comparison between human beings and Allah. It says that "believers love Allah the most" (i.e. they love him more than they love their families... but they still love their families)

salaam

mquran

Okay I am missing something here. No where in that verse does it say, "love is only for Allah", could you please tell me how you got that conclusion from 2/165. The verse is clearly tlaking about love in comparison between human beings and Allah. It says that "believers love Allah the most" (i.e. they love him more than they love their families... but they still love their families)

Very perceptive good point there. I just noticed something too

It says YUH.IBBON -HUM KA- H.UBB 'ALLAAH
They love them as the love of Allah

WA- 'ALLADHENA 'AAMANO ASHADD H.UBB(AN) LI- 'ALLAA
And those who believe are MORE intense in the love of Allah.

So yes, my mistake, you're right. I didn't notice that 'ashaddu' is in the comparitive form, so it's 'more intense' instead of shadid or just intense.
However, i don't see where habba is used for parents, children, spouses. If you see any telling verse, please let me know.

burhan

look people you are free love whoever you want, ok.

but there is thin line between love and idolisation

you have to let go of irrational beliefs and experiences.

Nadeem rasied a similar point here.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4586

The question can be why is your Mohammed experience more truthful than someone elses Jesus experience which strengthed their faith in the trinity.

Which is why I say it again, let go if irrational beliefs.

peace.

mquran

Sorry burhan, but i think a study of the quran is needed to see first

the meaning of habba/love
who we're meant to love

Lets not assume the english words has the same arabic implications.

KGB

Salaam Alleikum MQuran

Thank you very much for understanding my point. I am not perfect try everyday to improve myself. Everybody on this forum knows that I am not a soft spoken person, everybody on the forum knows that I am short tempered. Trying my best to overcome these personal weakness. Also trying to build up my patience and Tolerance.

Salaam Alleikum Burhan

I really don't understand what you are saying. Love is not idolising. I love my nieces and newphew very much which can't be term as idolising. Can you please eleborate.

burhan

Salaam kgb

More than happy to elaborate.

Did I say love is idolising?

I said there is thin line between the two.

For example your love may blind into doing something that is wrong.
Even the prophets were guilty of this.

So love for a person you've never met and only know through word of mouth is something worth questioning.

By all means admire them and learn from them, which is what you are probably be doing. I'm saying just be carefull, observer the thin line.

peace.

KGB

Salaam Burhan

Thank you. I am not depending on the word of mouth. Allah Taala teach us that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was send as Rahmat Il Allamin (send as Mercy to all worlds). Allah Taala teach us that Prophet Muhammad was softspoken very kind person.

Qur'an never say not to love Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Love is not idolising.

truth

Peace,

Love is not something one can easily switch on or off at will.

I believe the verses that describe the "love of the God" are not instructions for people - but rather a way of distinguishing the true believers from others. Those who truly believe in the God, are the ones who inherently love the God more than anything.

It describes those people, rather than being instructions or a formula to a fast track to heaven etc.

Those who 'love' what is dead; what can neither benefit nor harm them (ie. Mohammed ibn Abdullah) are inseperable from someone who today stands before a carved idol and loves it or "through" it. Both are powerless to them, and therefore unworthy of any devotion or love.

Love is for living things - for al-Hayy - so I would say that those who love Mohammed ibn Abdullah are betraying an inherent tendency towards idolatry.

Regards.

NoProgressive

Truth,

So when one's mother's dies, they should stop loving her? Their child?

salaam

KGB

Truth,

We don't have some carved statue of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) like Christian have the picture of Jeuses on the cross in front of them where they kneel down and pray. We all pray to serve Allah Taala. We bow down and prostrate to Allah Taala not Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Love can't be labeled as idoltary.

truth

Truth,

So when one's mother's dies, they should stop loving her? Their child?

Peace,

Your mother is someone who you love during life; someone you have had direct experience of. Once they are dead then they have completed that journey. You may still have love in your heart for the memories you have of that person in life. That's normal and human.

To love someone you neither knew personally, have no direct relationship to, who can neither harm nor benefit you, who has been dead for more than a thousand years is not the same even in the most basic sense. Yet the lovers of Mohammed ibn Abdullah would argue you must love him more than you do your parents!

Truth,

We don't have some carved statue of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) like Christian have the picture of Jeuses on the cross in front of them where they kneel down and pray. We all pray to serve Allah Taala. We bow down and prostrate to Allah Taala not Prophet Muhammad (SAW). Love can't be labeled as idoltary.

Are you saying that the misguided do not have plaques of Mohammed's name hung up on their walls besides the God? (I've once walked into a Pakistani/Bangladeshi mosque in Plymouth where there was ONLY a plaque of Mohammed's name up on the wall! The 'imam's face, bearded and blackened as it looked was devoid of any light. Wearing a turban with a raised "cock's comb" and holding a broomstick with a carved top - he parrotted a long winded passage of blessings upon Mohammed, Omar, Abu-Bakr, Othman, Ali, Hasan, Hussein.... the brutal shirk of it was completely grating to my senses. I never went back again.)

That their "love" by adding "SAW" to every mention of his name is not a form of blind and meaningless devotion that only serves to make them more misguided?

Most people cannot believe without creating partners.

Regards.

phoenix1

peace be upon everyone (including all messengers of God)

I dont love Muhammad. There, I said it. And its true. Whoever he was, he was probably a great person and I truly respect him. To me, love is something you feel toward a person (or thing) that you've really known and has been part of your life. I dont think I could say I "love" God either. Its kind of wierd if you think about it. What kind of feelings do we have toward God? In my case, i don't know if its love, but its something similar, but still something very different. I dont know.Going back to the messengers, we are not required to love them, and I bet no one has any such feeling toward any of them.
But then, what is love? what do we define as love? to some, it may be utmost respect. To me, its something more, something different. Love can be their without respect. Love is unconditional. I doubt people would still "love" Muhammad if he was a fraud. That's what I mean. but that's just my opinion.

NoProgressive

As Salaam Alaikum Peace,

To love someone you neither knew personally, have no direct relationship to, who can neither harm nor benefit you, who has been dead for more than a thousand years is not the same even in the most basic sense. Yet the lovers of Mohammed ibn Abdullah would argue you must love him more than you do your parents!

So you believe that the Prophet Muhammad doesn't benefit you? If he never benefitted you, then why exactly was he the messenger?

salaam

NoProgressive

As SAlaam Alaikum,

That their "love" by adding "SAW" to every mention of his name is not a form of blind and meaningless devotion that only serves to make them more misguided?

Most people cannot believe without creating partners.

Regards.

Actually, most people do that out of respect... not as some form of loyalty and devotion. Sam as saying, "Mr." or "Mrs".... done out of respect, not devotion.

salaam

truth

So you believe that the Prophet Muhammad doesn't benefit you? If he never benefitted you, then why exactly was he the messenger?

Peace NoProgressive,

This is similar to the mistake of misinterpreting "Rahmat lil alamin" - mercy to the creation/existence (universe/world).

It is mercy from the God that sent Mohammed; Mohammed is the God's mercy to the world - Mohammed is not a mercy in and of himself. The mercy belongs to the God and is sent by Him and does not belong or relate to Mohammed's self.

We have benefitted and continue to benefit from the God's guidance and mercy - and not through men who lived ages ago.

Here is an example for you - if I send you something out of my mercy by giving it to a postman to deliver to you - who is benefitting you - me or the postman?

Thus it is with the God - all benefit is from Him; and ascribing special powers of benefit to Mohammed is the creating of partners for the God's authority. The God does not share His authority with anyone.

Please contemplate carefully...

(What) you worship besides Him are nothing but names that you and your fathers have assigned, for which no sanction has been sent down by God. Authority belongs to God alone. He commands that you serve none but Him. This is the right way; but most men are ignorant.

Regards.

zenje

Example...

The Messiah son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate.
Say ?Do you serve other than God what cannot harm you or benefit you?? God is the Hearer, the Knower.

Make the connection...

Say ?I do not posses for myself any benefit or harm, except what God wills.
Say ?I do not posses for myself any harm or benefit except what God wills.
Say ?Who is the Lord of the heavens and Earth,? Say ?God.? Say ?Have you taken besides Him allies who do not posses for themselves any benefit or harm??...

Peace

mquran

KGB Thank you very much for understanding my point. I am not perfect try everyday to improve myself. Everybody on this forum knows that I am not a soft spoken person, everybody on the forum knows that I am short tempered. Trying my best to overcome these personal weakness. Also trying to build up my patience and Tolerance

Hate is not a bad thing itself. The people of Ibrahim had al-baghd/hate arise in them in their fight against their oppressive people. The people with Muhammad are intense against al-kuffar. Of course, when people disparage your deen and you get provoked (and I'm as guilty as you are) the correct response is to walk off (4/140) or just say salaam (25/67)

I really don't understand what you are saying. Love is not idolising. I love my nieces and newphew very much which can't be term as idolising. Can you please eleborate.

KGB, that might be 'wadda' instead of 'habba', I need to look up the differences but NP's made a good point here.

BurhanFor example your love may blind into doing something that is wrong.
Even the prophets were guilty of this.

If you find the ayaat for this, this would shed light on what is 'habba'.

TruthI believe the verses that describe the "love of the God" are not instructions for people - but rather a way of distinguishing the true believers from others. Those who truly believe in the God, are the ones who inherently love the God more than anything.

Agreed. Its never in command form, rather we have causal statements such as

Say "If ye do love God, Follow me God will love you and forgive you your sins For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (3/31)

QUL 'IN KUNTUM TUH.IBBON 'ALLAAH FA- ITTABIcO -NE YUH.BIB -KUM 'ALLAAH WA- YAGHFIR LA- -KUM DHUNOB -KUM WA- 'ALLAAH GHAFOR RAH.EM

What's rather interesting here to me is that the text is 'in KUNTUM tuhibbuna' when 'in tuhibbuna' is enough. 'kuntum' relates to 'kaun' or 'being' so this implies to me that 'habba' is something to do with our being.

Truth Those who 'love' what is dead; what can neither benefit nor harm them (ie. Mohammed ibn Abdullah) are inseperable from someone who today stands before a carved idol and loves it or "through" it. Both are powerless to them, and therefore unworthy of any devotion or love.

Love is for living things - for al-Hayy - so I would say that those who love Mohammed ibn Abdullah are betraying an inherent tendency towards idolatry.

Please bring evidence for this, truth. I see the problem here is we may be talking PAST each other. We're throwing around a common word 'love' but to each person love might mean something different that to the other. As such, lets find a definitive meaning of habba , I think 3/31 gives a good one, if u love then u follow, (in tuhibbu fattabiu). That's a Quranic causality right there. If you have any in mind, please bring them as well.

Are you saying that the misguided do not have plaques of Mohammed's name hung up on their walls besides the God? (I've once walked into a Pakistani/Bangladeshi mosque in Plymouth where there was ONLY a plaque of Mohammed's name up on the wall! The 'imam's face, bearded and blackened as it looked was devoid of any light. Wearing a turban with a raised "cock's comb" and holding a broomstick with a carved top - he parrotted a long winded passage of blessings upon Mohammed, Omar, Abu-Bakr, Othman, Ali, Hasan, Hussein.... the brutal shirk of it was completely grating to my senses. I never went back again.)

Maybe the Allah plague was being polished...?

I think , in order to clarify this issue, we need to

check out both words 'habba' and 'wadda' (58/20 has wadda)
see if habba is only for Allah (NP's argument was sound for 2/165)
see what are indications of 'habba' and 'wadda'

lets not get at cross-purposes with our definitions. We might be actually agreeing but due to semantics, seems like we're disagreeing.