The principles of faith in the Quran
-
Ahmed This is funny indeed as always by Y A, so his understanding that believers should not persue anything that they don't have knowledge, ie. they do not gain knowledge, "A CONRADICTORY MESSAGE IN THE QURAN" if Y Ali is right, but I know he is wrong because "La Takif" means within the context "do not argue"
Can you link 'wa laa taqfu' with 'qaffayna ala atsarihim' in 5/46, ahmed?
I cant accept argue because there are 2 words already which are similar in meaning, tahajju and tajdilu.
Peace mquran
I agree bro that argue means "tajdilu" I could not understand what you mean by tahajju?
but looking at the arabic verse again and the arabic words "La Takif" IE. DO NOT STAND UP
This is like someone is talking to a group of people giving a message then some one stands up to interupt and argue, the quran didn't prevent this if you have the knowledge to back you up, but clearly says DO NOT stand up if you lack knowledge, this is a known metaphor in the arabic community and I believe in many other cultures when you take a stand arguing something.
I'm sure bro about what I'm saying here bro, but if some consider it flawed meaning then I'm sorry the other one is far more flawed because the verse never suggested the following
-
You shall not accept any information,
-
unless you verify it for yourself.
I can't see anyting in the arabic context that inlcines the slightest to the above, hence it has to be flawed
The last bit translated is ok
"I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them"
After giving the warning to NOT to argue (debate) things that you lack knowledge in, it simply adds that the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain that were given to us, will be things that we will give account on how we deploy them
In regard to 546, no bro there is no link whatsoever, "Qafa" is different to "Takif"
"Qafa" means "to follow"
"Yakif" means "to stand up"
peace be with you
-
-
Ahmed, the roots are the same. Qaf-fa-ya so Im not sure why you're using 'K' for 'takfif' and 'q' for 'Qafa' when both are of the same root. So how can you say they're not linked?
My method is use a meaning which is clearer to me at a given point, in this 'qaffayna ala atsaarihim' to shed light on a less clear occurence.
-
Ahmed, the roots are the same. Qaf-fa-ya so Im not sure why you're using 'K' for 'takfif' and 'q' for 'Qafa' when both are of the same root. So how can you say they're not linked?
My method is use a meaning which is clearer to me at a given point, in this 'qaffayna ala atsaarihim' to shed light on a less clear occurence.
Peace bro
mate please forget the english when we discuss arabic letters, you see I once was asked by a non arabic speaker what is the difference between the Quran and the Koran, my answer was both are the same, so to use the K or the Q to represent a Kaf or Qaf is no issue here
let;s look at the roots for the 2 words in arabic
"Wa Qa Fa" or "Wa Ka Fa" which looks in arabic like this "" and when accompained by " " "La" ie. "Do Not", it will look like this " ", the waw in the root must be removed and a Ta must be added, removing the waw has nothing to do with adding the Ta as when you add "La" to a verb, a Ta must be added to the verb at the begining. and any verb that starts with waw, the waw should be removed, that is why you see it as " "
for the other word you brought in the picture to support your argument is actually totally different word that has different root as well has different meaning
"Qa Fa Ya" or "Ka Fa Ya", which looks like this "" which means to follow, however when this root is accompanied by " " " "La", ie. "Do Not" IT MUST LOOK LIKE THIS " ", can you spot the difference mate?
you see bro To follow is always expresses in the Quran using the word "Itba'ah" and Qafaya was only used when Allah refers to an action that he did following another action, ie He created other generations after another, ie. generatuons were following each other and the action was caused by Allah, now to take that meaning for a different word and apply it to 2736 because the two words have almost similar letters is a case with no merit for me because in addition to having same words with more than one meaning we also have different words with the same letters and each represent a different meaning, this is the case with any language I believe.
at the end of the day mate not to argue in something if we don't have knowledge or not to follow something that we do not have knowledge are both good advice
but you have to concede that the verse does not have this additioal info "but you have to prove it yourself", as in no way the arabic verse has these words in it as far as I'm concern.
Peace
-
...Should we trust the quran blindly? Should we follow it even if we come to conclude that it encourages something evil? Should we say "Its from god, lets follow it no matter what."? Is this how quran tells us to base our faith? ...
salam nadeem .
Quran is the criterion for good and evil . if we come to the conclusion that the quran encourages something that looks evil to us then it is actually not evil . Quran decides what is good and what is evil . we only hear and obey .what looks bad to us , might actually be good .
see this for example
466 If We had ordered them to sacrifice their lives or to leave their homes, very few of them would have done it But if they had done what they were (actually) told, it would have been best for them, and would have gone farthest to strengthen their (faith);
-
Hi Everyone,
Dear AhmedBahgat,
I appreciate your comments. However, i cannot verify them or the translation i've used. Thus, I went with the one I found most consistent with the quran.
But brother, even if it means argue. I don't see how the meaning changes. In order to believe, everyone makes an argument to themselves, some conciously, some sub-conciously. If we are prohibited from making an argument based something we lack knowledge of, then we are indirectly prohibited from believing in something we lack knowledge of.
That's my interpretation.
I'd appreciate if those at free-minds who translated the quran, could make a comment as to why they translated it
1737 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
Contradictory to AhmedBahgat?
Dear Saladin,
Brother, I cannot accept your interpretation. Following the quran blindly is not what we're ment to do. If we do, then what is the difference between us and others who blindly believe in their holy sources? We're following two different things, but we're still blind!
No, I cannot. Look at principle 6, or verse 728. if we follow the quran blindly, we are doomed to make the same mistake.
Thanks for your comments -)
Nadeem.
-
Peace mquran
I believe i did a small mistake regarding the arabic grammar, i checked in a small book that I have and it is confirmed a mistake.
any verb that ends with a "Ya " when used with "La" i.e. "Do Not", that Ya should be removed like removing the waw in front of the verb.
ie. "Qa Fa Ya "should be "La Ta Qi Fa" hence there will be no difference in the letters when compared to the other "La Ta Qi Fa", sorry but the meaning I stated stay the same because I also checked with many tafsirs and most agreed on the meaning I stated, there was other suggestions though that are totally different to what the majority suggested as well to what you are suggesting, i went with the majority here bro
Peace
-
Dear AhmedBahgat,
I appreciate your comments. However, i cannot verify them or the translation i've used. Thus, I went with the one I found most consistent with the quran.
But brother, even if it means argue. I don't see how the meaning changes. In order to believe, everyone makes an argument to themselves, some conciously, some sub-conciously. If we are prohibited from making an argument based something we lack knowledge of, then we are indirectly prohibited from believing in something we lack knowledge of.
That's my interpretation.
I'd appreciate if those at free-minds who translated the quran, could make a comment as to why they translated it
1737 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
Contradictory to AhmedBahgat?
Thank you bro, i can't see major difference other than the bit of you have to prove it yourself because it does not exist at all and is a clear cut addon to the meaning, possibly to add weight to the proposed understaning preceeding it which is you don't follow what you lack knowledge in.
the message of not following what we lack knowledge "alone" is lacking merit because we might be following good things that we lack knowledge in, hence they they added a bit of merit to it which is to prove it yourself first, now I consider this misleading because the verse never said you should prove it first
If you look at the verses 1731-35 preceeding 1736 you should notice that all are warning from bad deeds
now following someone without knowledge MAY NOT BE A BAD DEED
but arguing about something while lacking knowledge IS INDEED A BAD DEED
peace be with you
-
Brother, I cannot accept your interpretation. Following the quran blindly is not what we're ment to do. If we do, then what is the difference between us and others who blindly believe in their holy sources? We're following two different things, but we're still blind!
No, I cannot. Look at principle 6, or verse 728. if we follow the quran blindly, we are doomed to make the same mistake.
salam.
i didnt say that we follow blindly . i said , once we reach a conclusion , we must follow it . see that verse ? it says even if Allah had commanded them to kill themselves , or leave their land , it would be for their own good . it might sound non-sense or evil to some , but it isnt . -
Hi AhmadBahgat,
Then you would translate the ayat as follows?
You shall not argue without knowledge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Right?
now following someone without knowledge MAY NOT BE A BAD DEED
Agreed, but still it's against the quran. Are we not supposed to be certain of what we follow?
Nadeem
-
Hi AhmadBahgat,
Then you would translate the ayat as follows?
You shall not argue without knowledge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Right?
Perfect bro, thanks
now following someone without knowledge MAY NOT BE A BAD DEED
Agreed, but still it's against the quran. Are we not supposed to be certain of what we follow?
Nadeem
not really because it will require that all people will be average at least, the point is we are all different, for those under average, they will need to follow trused family members and friends because they just can't understand it on their own, I believe Allah will consider this into account becasue He is the one Who gives anyone knowledge from the first place
it is a bit complicated issue and the best answer is Allah knows best
peace be with you
-
Also Nadeem, you can consider the story of Moses and his companion when Moses was asked to follow him WITHOUT ASKING ANY QUESTION as a perfect example of following without knowledge
Peace bro
-
-
Hi bro AhmadBahgat -)
I understand what you mean. However, when a person can be held responsible for his actions. He should acquire knowledge before he acts.
In the case of moses, he only observed but never followed. Do you see the difference?
Nadeem.
Yes I see what you mean and you are right, it was an order to him NOT to ask, so my perfect example failed really bad, thanks mate lol
But here is a good one for you bro, we follow Mohammad because we believed in the unseen, did we really manged to prove that Mohammad existed and delivered the Quran unchanged?, not sure about that, in fact we were only told to obey Mohammad as much as we were told to obey Allah
but as I stated bro it is a good advice to prove all things first, how the individual will achieve that?, i don't know, but I know the individual will surely differ in achieving this some even will careless to prove anything they just take it for granted
also I stated far earlier that this teaching is in the Bible and me as a muslim believe in the uncorupptyed bible passages exactly as I believe in the whole Quran verses, that is what Allah told us in the Quran many times. I will try to find that passage mate.
Peace bro
-
peace,
When I had a look at 1736, I thought the following was most accurate
And do not follow what you have no knowledge of. Truly, the hearing, the sight and the heart - all will be questioned of this.
If anyone feels this is incorrect, please clarify as to where & why. How does the word "argue" fit into it?
Wakas
-
Hello Wakas
Your translation can not be accepted bro for the following reasons
-
The context of your translation will be missing a vital piece of information that will render the sentence ?Not complete?, this information is simply WHAT WE SHOULD NOT FOLLOW EXACTLY?, because as I stated earlier lacking the knowledge does not warrant not to follow others and we need to know what we should not follow for sure?
-
In the Arabic language ?Qa Fa Ya? is hardly used to express following, in fact as far as I believe it was only used 3 times in the Quran to express that Allah did an action following another action and was never expressed as a human action, surely what is known in the Arabic language and the Quran is when you warn someone from following something you use the following word ? ? or if you say it to a group it will become ? ?, and means 100% ?Do not follow?, the Quran has about 17 examples, in every single instance we were informed with what we should not follow and even when we ordered to follow something we were informed of what to follow, make sense to you bro?
Here is a few examples and please note that what we should not follow was stated in the verses and I will highlighted in blue as the common sense says we should state what should not be followed if you are going to warn an individual or a group of not following something, just don?t follow ?alone? does not make a complete sense neither constitute a complete sentence
?O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, Lawful and good; and do not follow the footsteps of the evil one, for he is to you an avowed enemy.?
(16
?O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.?
(135)
?To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;?
(4
?Say "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.?
(77)
?Say 'Bring forward your witnesses to prove that Allah did forbid so and so.' If they bring such witnesses, be not thou amongst them Nor follow thou the vain desires of such as treat our signs as falsehoods, and such as believe not in the Hereafter for they hold others as equal with their Guardian-Lord.?
(150)
?Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition.?
(3)
-> Can you see mate in 73 that it has both an order to follow and another order ?Not to follow? in both cases we were informed with what we should follow and what we should not. another example of both follow and not to follow in one verse is shown below
?Then We put thee on the (right) Way of Religion so follow thou that (Way), and follow not the desires of those who know not.?
(1
Based on the above I can conclude to myself that ?La Ta Qi Fa? in 1736 DO NOT MEAN ?Not to follow?, RATHER ?Not to argue?, because the verse failed to tell us what we should not follow and because the Quran verses never fail, it has to be ?Not to argue? and surely its metaphor use of standing up to express arguing is very common indeed in the Arabic world.
Peace be with you
-
-
Ahmed, sorry but I have to keep it short. While I understand your formulation for disagreeing of the roots of 'wa qaf ya' and 'qaf fa ya', the mu'jam al-muhfaras concordance thinks its the same root, as does JIMAS translation, Mohar Ali. Are you sure they're not the same root?
-
HI AhmedBahgat,
This is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse
1736 And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).Hi AhmadBahgat,
Then you would translate the ayat as follows?
You shall not argue without knowledge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Right?Perfect bro, thanks
In your translation, u have 'argue' . Is there an arabic word meaning 'argue' present in that particular verse?
And can u please translate the verse in english word to word?Wala taqfu
ma laysa
laka bihi
AAilmun
inna
alssamAAa
waalbasara
waalfuada
kullu
olaika
kana
AAanhu
masoolanPeace!
-
HI AhmedBahgat,
Hello mate
i was just about to go to bed after a long comment that took me 3 days to put together but the problem is I can't sleep while a question is asked bt me or by any mate directed to me as my head keeps thinking hence it will take me hours to sleep, so I'd rather get done with it before I go to bed lol
This is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse
1736 And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).sorry mate, YA does horrible mistakes, i got him red handed many times while I'm still considered a non english speaker well "like him I guess" but my english learning is dodgy for sure and self taught
his translation as "Do not persue" is 100% wrong because it discourage us from gaining knowledge, or at least it will make us fear to gain knowledge because if we try to do that, what our eyes see, our ears hear and our brains conclude can be held against us, THIS IS A VERY NEGATIVE MESSAGE INDEED AND CONTRADICT THE QURAN IN OTHER LOCATION WHICH ENCOURAGED GAINING KNOWLEDGE
Hi AhmadBahgat,
Then you would translate the ayat as follows?
You shall not argue without knowledge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Right?Perfect bro, thanks
In your translation, u have 'argue' . Is there an arabic word meaning 'argue' present in that particular verse?
no there is not, but this is a common metaphor in the arabic world that represent arguing, I explained this before to Nadeem, this how the verse sounded to me BEFORE I READ THE TAFSIR BY 4 MAJOR ONES AND SURE THE MAJORITY WAS THE SAME, SO I FELT HAPPY AND CONFIDENT TO TAKE THAT MEANING
And can u please translate the verse in english word to word?
Wala taqfu ( DO NOT STAND UP)
ma laysa ( Do Not )
laka bihi ( Possess)
AAilmun ( Knowledge )
inna ( as )
alssamAAa ( The Hearing )
waalbasara ( and The Vision )
waalfuada ( and The Heart )
kullu ( All )
olaika ( Of them )
kana ( Are )
AAanhu ( About them )
masoolan (Questioned )Not sure how you can put it together but even word for word you will see that argue without having knowledge makes more sense for sure and the majority of solid arabic speakers will agree on that because it is kown whe you argue it is like you stand up, even lawyers do the same at courts when they object
peace be with you and good night
-
Hi AhmedBhahgat,
HI AhmedBahgat,
Hello mate
i was just about to go to bed after a long comment that took me 3 days to put together but the problem is I can't sleep while a question is asked bt me or by any mate directed to me as my head keeps thinking hence it will take me hours to sleep, so I'd rather get done with it before I go to bed lolI thank you for your instant reply. ) But please do take ur time, and reply as u find convenient, the next time. No hurry.
I appreciate your kindness.This is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse
1736 And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).sorry mate, YA does horrible mistakes, i got him red handed many times while I'm still considered a non english speaker well "like him I guess" but my english learning is dodgy for sure and self taught
his translation as "Do not persue" is 100% wrong because it discourage us from gaining knowledge, or at least it will make us fear to gain knowledge because if we try to do that, what our eyes see, our ears hear and our brains conclude can be held against us, THIS IS A VERY NEGATIVE MESSAGE INDEED AND CONTRADICT THE QURAN IN OTHER LOCATION WHICH ENCOURAGED GAINING KNOWLEDGE
I think, U might have misunderstood what he means. 'Pursue' would mean follow. So, the verse according to Yusuf Ali's translation would mean, if put in an informal way '' do not follow something blindly that you have no knowledge of. whatever u believe and follow, u r responsible for and answerable for, on the day of judgement, for Allah will take into account all that u have heard, saw, all the information that u came across,...and from which u decided to choose what to believe and why(which is in one's heart)''. We wont be responsible for what we heard or what we saw. But we would be held responsible for what we did with the information(that we heard/saw etc). Say, U see a bad thing, and U think and come to a decission that U wont follow that coz its bad, this goes in Ur favour. and the vice versa. And if U see a good deed, and U think and decide to follow it, this again goes in ur favour. So, in that sense, he means to say whatever we see/hear etc , we are to consider and think and decide before following it, in our actions or even in our thoughts.
So, Yusuf Ali doesnt go on to say we should not gain knowledge. Let me try explaining with an example.
Say, for eg, people who lived before Quran was revealed, would not be judged by it, as they had no knowledege of the Quran. But people to whom, it was directly revealed would definitely be questioned, as to why they refused to believe when they came across the truth.I hope I have been clear with my explanation.
Then you would translate the ayat as follows?
You shall not argue without knowledge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Right?Perfect bro, thanks
In your translation, u have 'argue' . Is there an arabic word meaning 'argue' present in that particular verse?
no there is not, but this is a common metaphor in the arabic world that represent arguing, I explained this before to Nadeem, this how the verse sounded to me BEFORE I READ THE TAFSIR BY 4 MAJOR ONES AND SURE THE MAJORITY WAS THE SAME, SO I FELT HAPPY AND CONFIDENT TO TAKE THAT MEANING
I dont understand how 'argue' can be metaphor.
I mean, its quite a strong word to consider equivalent of 'stand up'.And can u please translate the verse in english word to word?
Wala taqfu ( DO NOT STAND UP)
ma laysa ( Do Not )
laka bihi ( Possess)
AAilmun ( Knowledge )
inna ( as )
alssamAAa ( The Hearing )
waalbasara ( and The Vision )
waalfuada ( and The Heart )
kullu ( All )
olaika ( Of them )
kana ( Are )
AAanhu ( About them )
masoolan (Questioned )Not sure how you can put it together but even word for word you will see that argue without having knowledge makes more sense for sure and the majority of solid arabic speakers will agree on that because it is kown whe you argue it is like you stand up, even lawyers do the same at courts when they object
peace be with you and good night
Thank you for the word to word translation.
From which, I feel it means more like, ''Do not stand up to speak of, what u have no knowledge of, for ur hearing, vision, and ur heart(what u feel therein) are all known to Allah, and according to which u would be questioned''Would u say my undertsanding of the meaning of that verse is wrong?
And thanks again, for ur reply.
Peace!
-
peace,
The following is the word for word translation that I have
Wala - and not
taqfu - follow
ma - what
laysa - not
laka - you have
bihi - of which
AAilmun - knowledge~ and do not follow what you have no knowledge of
It does tell us what not to follow whatever you have no knowledge of, thus directly implying to follow what you have knowledge of. This leads to seeking knowledge, not impeding it.
The root is, according to DofQ & CofQ Qaf-Fa-Way/Ya
To me, it doesn't matter if another word has been used to mean "follow". I do not agree that for one word in al-quran there is a unique definition and no other word can mean this.
Wakas
