Islamic Economic System
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If you're waiting for supply and demand curves, you're in for a long wait, im afraid. Al-quraan dictates its information on its own terms and doesn't comform for most if not all academic systems.
and how does explain the economic system according to the Quran?
regards
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peace stillearning,
My friend so far it has been a pleasure to involved in discussion with you (very civilised) but be please be patient I have very limited time and often respond in hurry with few snatched minutes here and there hence numerous mistakes. I have just returned from a day journey of almost 1000 miles and very tired.
k sorry
I think we have not really defined what capitalism means to each of us, therefore we may not necessarily be discussing the same thing.
For me capitalism is quite simply for any individual or a group of individuals to carry out a legitimate trade without any restriction on how large and vast that trade is. as far as legitmacy is concerned that has to be defined by each society as it sees it appropriate. Obviousouly an Islamic society will determine what is legitimate according to its own values.
(Incidentally there is no absolute free society and as far as I can see it never can be as evry society has to be governed by some form of rules)I think it will help as to how you define capitalism
Capitalism is more than just legitimate trade, I might add that unrestriction on the size and vastness pf businesses leads to monopolies which have bad results for domestic business as well as many other problems, also it may lead to predator multinationals destroying the economies of other nations by the domestic economies being unable to compete, even many capitalist countries have restrictions on the size and vastness of businesses, but I'm afraid you're merely touching on an uninformed and restricted view of what capitalism is, let me split it up into three sections
- Means of Production
- Distribution of wealth
- Capital vs. Labor
Means of Production
"Means of production" usually applies to land or commons being converted to natural resources, and to that infrastructural capital which is not owned strictly in common but is applied to make "goods".
The tools (instruments) and the raw material (subject) you use to create something are the means of production.
If we examine the whole process from the point of view of its result, the product, it is plain that both the instruments and the subject of labour, are means of production, and that the labour itself is productive labour.
Capitalism is the privitization of the means of production into the hands of a few, those who own and trade in means of production as capital assets, and who hire workers to work for them, using those means of production. As property owners they can obtain a profit from the work of his employees because the value of output exceeds the outlay on wages and materials. Therefore, the capitalists obtain a surplus value from the work of his employees which as I have shown constitutes exploitation
All value inherited in commodities stems from labor, as opposed to capital. i.e. if one were left to his whims in the wilderness with only his labor to live by, he would be able to forge tools to create capital with, and thus an endless supply of wealth. If this man were a capitalist on the other hand, and tried to survive without working, he would be dead in a matter of days. Because capital alone is not enough to create wealth, you can see that labor alone IS enough to create wealth
Say for instance that a worker assembles simple toys in a capitalist's factory for $5 per hour. Let us imagine the worker combines 2 plastic pieces, which cost the capitalist $1 each, to create the toys. The worker creates ten new toys per hour, so the capitalist has put forward $25 to create ten new toys. Now the capitalist makes the toys available for sale for $3 each, so that he receives $30 for the 10 toys. From this we see that the materials to create ten toys cost the capitalist $20, and the labor-power of the worker cost the capitalist $5, so he received a profit of $5.*
Where does this profit come from? It comes from the exploitation of the worker! If the twenty plastic pieces alone were only worth $20, how then could the completed toys be sold for $30? What increased the value of these plastic pieces? It was the labor-power of the worker, which turned the raw materials into a new commodity. From this we see that the labor-power of the worker added a value of $10, but the worker was only played $5 for her hour of labor-power. Her labor-power was sold as a commodity to the capitalist, in hour increments, just as the plastic is sold to the capitalist in pieces.
What's unique about the labor-power of the worker is that it is the only commodity which creates new value. Therefor we see that the worker is exploited for her labor-power, the necessary commodity in all creation of value, and only receives a share of the value she has created. Now the worker who created 10 toys in one hour, can only afford to buy 1 of them with the $5 wage she received.
With this constant exploitation, the working class receives only enough of a share of the value it creates to keep it in working, and reproducing, condition. That is, to keep the workers alive, with enough wealth to create new workers.
In capitalism, the capitalists (owners of capital) own the means of production, in socialism they are controlled by an elected government of people's representatives, in communism they are controlled collectively by the people themselves, in God's system God owns the means of production, inherits them according to His law (to the salih/righteous people 712, who utilize them for the good of humanity, NOT to those who own the capital to utilize for private gain
Verses Standing for Means of Production for the Common Good
558 So that you, too, never violate balance in your lives.
559 Therefore, establish Balance in the society in absolute justice. And never belittle the Scale of Justice in the community and in all your transactions with your own ?Self? and with others.
5510 And (know that) the earth He has spread out for all His creatures. ('Anam' = All living beings).4110 And He it is Who placed therein firm mountains towering above it, and bestowed enduring Bliss upon it. And He measured therein its sustenance in Four Seasons, alike for all who (invariably) need it. (3967, 5663-73).
5663 Have you thought of the crops that you cultivate?
5664 Is it you who grow it or are We the Grower?
5665 If We willed, We surely could turn it into chaff, then you would be left to exclaim,
5666 ?Behold, we are now under debt.
5667 Nay, but we are deprived!?
5668 Have you thought of the water you drink?
5669 Do you bring it down from the rain-cloud or do We?
5670 If We willed, We surely could make it salty. Why, then, do you not show gratitude? (By devising an equitable system of provision for all).
5671 Did you consider the fire you strike out?
5672 Is it you who grow the tree as its fuel, or do We grow it? (4110).
5673 We, yes, We have made this (fire) a reminder, and a gift for all of you who surely need it. (The use of fire is one of the Divine gifts that distinguishes mankind from the Animal Kingdom).773 The people of Thamud were successors to Aad. To them We sent their brother, Saleh. He said, ?O My people! Serve Allah. You have no other god but He. The Clear Truth has come to you from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah, a token for your obedience. So let her feed in Allah?s earth and do not harm her lest painful torment seize you.? (Their feudal lords controlled land, crop, oases and water resources, and the weak were suffering. Saleh assigned a she-camel as a symbol of their reformation).
774 Saleh said, ?Remember how He made you inherit the land after Aad and established you therein. You build castles in the valleys and carve out homes in the mountains. So, remember Allah?s bounties and do not spread corruption in the land.?
775 Their leaders said to the believers, "How do you know that Saleh is sent from his Lord?" They responded, "We believe in the Message he has brought.? (The bringer of such Sublime Message cannot be a liar).
776 (The arrogant leaders and the feudal lords could see their vested interests getting hit, so they decided to reject the Divine Message.) The arrogant ones said to the believers, ?We reject what you believe in.?
777 They killed the she-camel, rebelled against their Lord?s Command and challenged, ?O? Saleh! Bring the doom you threaten us with, if you are really a Messenger.?1164 (The feudal lords had been depriving the poor of using the land and its natural resources of water and vegetation.) Saleh said, ?O My people! This she-camel belonging to Allah shall be a token for you. So leave her alone to graze in the land belonging to Allah. Do her no harm, lest speedy punishment befall you (9113).? (This verse along with 5510 pronounces one of the most revolutionary concepts of the Qur?an. The land, the earth is owned by none but Allah and must be open for all His creation as a means of sustenance. Hence, all landlord-ship is contrary to the Divine Ordinance. In the Divine System, the Central Authority will see to it that any piece of land will be for those who toil in it and give Allah His Right, the poor-due 6141).
? The earth and all its resources belong to Allah. It is such an obvious fact that no one can deny it (612, 1031, 2961 &63, 3125, 3424, 3910 &38, 439).
? Allah is the inheritor of the earth (1940).
? The earth has been created for the benefit of all (5510).
? It has been created to provide nourishment for all (5673).
? To Him belongs all that is in heavens and the earth, ?La hu ma fissamawati fil ardh? (2116, 2255, 4171, 540, 142, 1652, 206, 2264).
? ?Lillahi ma fissamawati fil ardh? (2284, 3109, 3129, 4131,132, 540, 1055, 1067, 142, 1652, 206, 2119, 341, 424, 4253, 5321).
? ?Lillahi miraathus samaawaatti wal ardh? (3180).
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- Distribution of wealth
In capitalism, initial distribution of wealth is determined by the free-market and competition which is based on an uneven level in the first place (inequality in ability, intelligence, opportunity, inheritance, etc.), its a sort of casino actually, those who accumulate the capital control the means of production which increases their profit through the labor of others who produce using the means of production the capitalists control, the main purpose of capitalism is to accumulate capital so voluntary distribution of excess to create perfect equality is not only extremely unrealistic, but a laughable fantasy, one needs to only look at the extreme inequality of capitalist societies today to know this, even if the initial society plan in capitalism was equality of wealth it would never work as the individual race for profit is worshipped in capitalism, the capitalists will never give up their personal wealth for the good of humanity/the community
What the reading/quran says
Distribution of Wealth
And The God has preferred some of you over others in provision. Those who have been preferred will not relinquish their provision to those who are still dependant, so they may become equal in it. Are they denying the favour of The God? (1671)
Who distributes?
Take from their money a charity to purify them and develop them with it, and connect to them. Your reaching out is a tranquility for them; and The God is Hearer, Knowledgeable. (9103)
To be distributed to who?
283, 2177, 2215, etc.
How much is to be individually given for distribution?
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.? And they ask you how much are they to give, Say ?The excess.? It is thus that The God clarifies for you the signs that you may think. (2219)
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salaam Idris
Capitalism is more than just legitimate trade, I might add that unrestriction on the size and vastness pf businesses leads to monopolies which have bad results for domestic business as well as many other problems, also it may lead to predator multinationals destroying the economies of other nations by the domestic economies being unable to compete, even many capitalist countries have restrictions on the size and vastness of businesses
If you look at your own quote you have actually answered your own objection.
I am not aware Quran restricting any business to any size. You might not like big sized business but that does not make it ant-Quranic.I think you have not really understood capitalism properly It is not there to make every rule for any given society and if a society does not like any particular effect of any business it can legislate against it-as you have pointed out in your quote.
also it may lead to predator multinationals destroying the economies of other nations by the domestic economies being unable to compete
Why should the domestic economies not be able to compete?
I am not sure what you mean by this. Are you against competition.
How do you think many big businesses originally started?
I dont know. was Bill Gates always a billionare?Capitalism is the privitization of the means of production into the hands of a few, those who own and trade in means of production as capital assets, and who hire workers to work for them, using those means of production
Why it does it have to be in the hands of few. Capitalism does not restrict any one from being involved in production.
Are you seriously suggesting hiring workers is anti-Quranic otherwise I dont really understnad your point.Therefore, the capitalists obtain a surplus value from the work of his employees which as I have shown constitutes exploitation
I am afraid you have shown no such thing. You have just written a slogan.
Say for instance that a worker assembles simple toys in a capitalist's factory for $5 per hour. Let us imagine the worker combines 2 plastic pieces, which cost the capitalist $1 each, to create the toys. The worker creates ten new toys per hour, so the capitalist has put forward $25 to create ten new toys. Now the capitalist makes the toys available for sale for $3 each, so that he receives $30 for the 10 toys. From this we see that the materials to create ten toys cost the capitalist $20, and the labor-power of the worker cost the capitalist $5, so he received a profit of $5.*
Where does this profit come from? It comes from the exploitation of the worker! If the twenty plastic pieces alone were only worth $20, how then could the completed toys be sold for $30? What increased the value of these plastic pieces? It was the labor-power of the worker, which turned the raw materials into a new commodity. From this we see that the labor-power of the worker added a value of $10, but the worker was only played $5 for her hour of labor-power. Her labor-power was sold as a commodity to the capitalist, in hour increments, just as the plastic is sold to the capitalist in pieces.
Are you suggesting it is wrong to make a profit?
If a shopkeeper buys an onion for 1 rupee and sells it for 2 is he wrong. Acoording to your logic, he is, otherwise how is that onion now worth the extra 1 rupee.Where does this profit come from? It comes from the exploitation of the worker
Working for someone is not exploitation. I work for a very large instituion (yes I think I should be paid more-most people do even the self employed) but I dont consider my self exploited.
I think you have to be clear what you mean by exploitation.
I understand the person to whom the Quran was revealed did work for a businesswoman. Was he being exploited?in God's system God owns the means of production,
Would be good if God took over the means of production.
So let me see in Gods system according to you
There would be no big business. You now just need to define what you mean by big.
No one will be allowed to employ anyone-as that consitutes exploitation.
No one be able to make any profit.
No one is allowed to have any excess-we now need a define what excess is.Quote
558 So that you, too, never violate balance in your lives.
559 Therefore, establish Balance in the society in absolute justice. And never belittle the Scale of Justice in the community and in all your transactions with your own ?Self? and with others.
5510 And (know that) the earth He has spread out for all His creatures. ('Anam' = All living beings).4110 And He it is Who placed therein firm mountains towering above it, and bestowed enduring Bliss upon it. And He measured therein its sustenance in Four Seasons, alike for all who (invariably) need it. (3967, 5663-73).
5663 Have you thought of the crops that you cultivate?
5664 Is it you who grow it or are We the Grower?
5665 If We willed, We surely could turn it into chaff, then you would be left to exclaim,
5666 ?Behold, we are now under debt.
5667 Nay, but we are deprived!?
5668 Have you thought of the water you drink?
5669 Do you bring it down from the rain-cloud or do We?
5670 If We willed, We surely could make it salty. Why, then, do you not show gratitude? (By devising an equitable system of provision for all).
5671 Did you consider the fire you strike out?
5672 Is it you who grow the tree as its fuel, or do We grow it? (4110).
5673 We, yes, We have made this (fire) a reminder, and a gift for all of you who surely need it. (The use of fire is one of the Divine gifts that distinguishes mankind from the Animal Kingdom).773 The people of Thamud were successors to Aad. To them We sent their brother, Saleh. He said, ?O My people! Serve Allah. You have no other god but He. The Clear Truth has come to you from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah, a token for your obedience. So let her feed in Allah?s earth and do not harm her lest painful torment seize you.? (Their feudal lords controlled land, crop, oases and water resources, and the weak were suffering. Saleh assigned a she-camel as a symbol of their reformation).
774 Saleh said, ?Remember how He made you inherit the land after Aad and established you therein. You build castles in the valleys and carve out homes in the mountains. So, remember Allah?s bounties and do not spread corruption in the land.?
775 Their leaders said to the believers, "How do you know that Saleh is sent from his Lord?" They responded, "We believe in the Message he has brought.? (The bringer of such Sublime Message cannot be a liar).
776 (The arrogant leaders and the feudal lords could see their vested interests getting hit, so they decided to reject the Divine Message.) The arrogant ones said to the believers, ?We reject what you believe in.?
777 They killed the she-camel, rebelled against their Lord?s Command and challenged, ?O? Saleh! Bring the doom you threaten us with, if you are really a Messenger.?1164 (The feudal lords had been depriving the poor of using the land and its natural resources of water and vegetation.) Saleh said, ?O My people! This she-camel belonging to Allah shall be a token for you. So leave her alone to graze in the land belonging to Allah. Do her no harm, lest speedy punishment befall you (9113).? (This verse along with 5510 pronounces one of the most revolutionary concepts of the Qur?an. The land, the earth is owned by none but Allah and must be open for all His creation as a means of sustenance. Hence, all landlord-ship is contrary to the Divine Ordinance. In the Divine System, the Central Authority will see to it that any piece of land will be for those who toil in it and give Allah His Right, the poor-due 6141).
? The earth and all its resources belong to Allah. It is such an obvious fact that no one can deny it (612, 1031, 2961 &63, 3125, 3424, 3910 &38, 439).
? Allah is the inheritor of the earth (1940).
? The earth has been created for the benefit of all (5510).
? It has been created to provide nourishment for all (5673).
? To Him belongs all that is in heavens and the earth, ?La hu ma fissamawati fil ardh? (2116, 2255, 4171, 540, 142, 1652, 206, 2264).
? ?Lillahi ma fissamawati fil ardh? (2284, 3109, 3129, 4131,132, 540, 1055, 1067, 142, 1652, 206, 2119, 341, 424, 4253, 5321).
? ?Lillahi miraathus samaawaatti wal ardh? (3180).
I cannot see anything in the above verses that restricts business size, is against profit, against employing anyone.
There is nothing in the above verses which is against capitalism.
regards -
In capitalism, initial distribution of wealth is determined by the free-market and competition which is based on an uneven level in the first place (inequality in ability, intelligence, opportunity, inheritance, etc.), its a sort of casino actually
Is the capitalist, whoeverhe/she may be, rsponsible for. inequality in ability or intelligence. I know capitalism is blamed for many things but this is a new one to me.
the capitalists will never give up their personal wealth for the good of humanity/the community
As opposed to those who will give up their personal wealth such as..............?
Distribution of Wealth
And The God has preferred some of you over others in provision. Those who have been preferred will not relinquish their provision to those who are still dependant, so they may become equal in it. Are they denying the favour of The God? (1671)
Who distributes?
Take from their money a charity to purify them and develop them with it, and connect to them. Your reaching out is a tranquility for them; and The God is Hearer, Knowledgeable. (9103)
To be distributed to who?
283, 2177, 2215, etc.
How much is to be individually given for distribution?
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.? And they ask you how much are they to give, Say ?The excess.? It is thus that The God clarifies for you the signs that you may think. (2219)
Great! All we need to do now is to define
Equality
Excessregards
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salaam mq
By first asking 'what is economics'.
You tell me. You are discussing this issue. No point in discussing something if you do not know what it is.
regards -
salaam mq
Initial definition which initated this debate
ECONOMICS is a science concerned with production, distribution and consumption of goods, services, wealth and resources.
Seems fairly reasonable to me.
mqurans definition
Economics for me is 'the study of activities leading to the material rewards used to fulfil needs and wants'
seems ok as well. As long as it does not start heading towards some spiritual direction-that I dont think was the spirit of the original comment.
regards
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peace stillearning,
If you look at your own quote you have actually answered your own objection.
I am not aware Quran restricting any business to any size. You might not like big sized business but that does not make it ant-Quranic.I think you have not really understood capitalism properly It is not there to make every rule for any given society and if a society does not like any particular effect of any business it can legislate against it-as you have pointed out in your quote.
Capitalism is laizze faire, absolute free market, anything that goes against this is against capitalism regardless of the fact that the society claims to be capitalistic or not, even America is not absolutely capitalist as is proven by corporate welfare while the workers are left to "compete in the free market" and sell their labor to survive, anyways I never said it made every rule for any given society and have not suggested that but of course it does for the economy if left to itself but often capitalist governments step in to protect the private property owners
Why should the domestic economies not be able to compete?
I am not sure what you mean by this. Are you against competition.
How do you think many big businesses originally started?
I dont know. was Bill Gates always a billionare?Competition is left for righteousness (214, cooperation is for economy, competition in the economy may lead to efficiency but thats hardly an argument for moral credibility, murder, theft, lying, etc. can be efficient as well, competition in economics is cold hearted and doesnt think of those it hurts in its path, I guess it depends whether you look at economics through a human perspective or not
Btw based on your statement you have no knowledge of the subject I'm speaking of, domestic economies of developing nations are very weak
Why it does it have to be in the hands of few. Capitalism does not restrict any one from being involved in production.
Where did I say anything about being INVOLVED in production? The only way capitalists are INVOLVED in production is that they own the means of production. You obviously have no idea about any of this. It does restrict who can own the means of production and who can't. Workers cannot own the means of production.
Btw you really know little about capitalism so you can't really say capitalism does this and this. You are arguing an economic theory with no basis actually.
Are you seriously suggesting hiring workers is anti-Quranic otherwise I dont really understnad your point.
The CEO-worker relationship is against God's system but I haven't even gotten to that really, sorry to even question such an ingrained belief but many have a problem letting this go
I am afraid you have shown no such thing. You have just written a slogan.
They obtained profit off the labor of others which they would not have otherwise attained due to the fact they did not contribute productive labor, I have already shown this but had it ignored
Are you suggesting it is wrong to make a profit?
No, profit can be made without an employer, for example, if the complete money made from total worker productivity is divided among the workers with compensation on the work of an individual, some or all individual workers may end up with surplus to their basic needs, a profit
If a shopkeeper buys an onion for 1 rupee and sells it for 2 is he wrong. Acoording to your logic, he is, otherwise how is that onion now worth the extra 1 rupee.
You say in trade, a shopkeeper takes from the purchaser more than he had spent, similarly in usury the one who uses his capital for loaning, receives more than his principal amount. This is a lame excuse. In trade a man spends his capital and in addition to it he puts in labour. Thus anything surplus that he takes is not a profit on the capital, rather it is a return for his labour, and this is exactly the right way. On the contrary in usury where no labour is put in, it is only a surplus gain on money loaned by him, this is unlawful. (Remember the principle in this respect, that it is only the return of labour that is right (5339) but to gain profit on other people's labour simply by investing capital alone, is unlawful. This is what is called 'Riba' (or interest).
Those who consume riba, they do not rise except as the one who is being beaten by the rebellious out of direct touch. That is because they have said ?Trade is like riba.? While The God has made trade lawful, and He has forbidden riba. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be protecting for what was before this and his case will be with The God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally. (2275)
Working for someone is not exploitation. I work for a very large instituion (yes I think I should be paid more-most people do even the self employed) but I dont consider my self exploited.
Ok, exploitation is not based on ones' perception, there were still Jews that went to the gas chamber not believing their government would do such a thing (extreme example but same basic principle)
I think you have to be clear what you mean by exploitation.
I understand the person to whom the Quran was revealed did work for a businesswoman. Was he being exploited?You and I have no real knowledge of this, but in history (hadith) Muhammed was a trader himself, but only in the corrupt Arab system, hardly an example for us all
Would be good if God took over the means of production.
Wow, God has to take over the land? As far as I know God created the land and owns it, not sure what you believe, not sure if you even know what the means of production are
So let me see in Gods system according to you
There would be no big business. You now just need to define what you mean by big.
I never mentioned big business, you did, why do I need to define everything? Why can't you define it considering you brought it up?
But big to me would be a monopoly or a business so vast in its area that it shuts out competition or provides little room for competing businesses, nothing wrong with a "capitalist" society making this illegal, in an egalitarian society its unthinkable
No one will be allowed to employ anyone-as that consitutes exploitation.
If the employer is not contributing productive labor himself and making above what he has contributed it is (taking from the labor of others) but this is for my next post
No one be able to make any profit.
Wrong
No one is allowed to have any excess-we now need a define what excess is.
They can make an excess (profit), but must give it up, 2219, I've already defined my view on excess, read back a couple replies
Quote
558 So that you, too, never violate balance in your lives.
559 Therefore, establish Balance in the society in absolute justice. And never belittle the Scale of Justice in the community and in all your transactions with your own ?Self? and with others.
5510 And (know that) the earth He has spread out for all His creatures. ('Anam' = All living beings).4110 And He it is Who placed therein firm mountains towering above it, and bestowed enduring Bliss upon it. And He measured therein its sustenance in Four Seasons, alike for all who (invariably) need it. (3967, 5663-73).
5663 Have you thought of the crops that you cultivate?
5664 Is it you who grow it or are We the Grower?
5665 If We willed, We surely could turn it into chaff, then you would be left to exclaim,
5666 ?Behold, we are now under debt.
5667 Nay, but we are deprived!?
5668 Have you thought of the water you drink?
5669 Do you bring it down from the rain-cloud or do We?
5670 If We willed, We surely could make it salty. Why, then, do you not show gratitude? (By devising an equitable system of provision for all).
5671 Did you consider the fire you strike out?
5672 Is it you who grow the tree as its fuel, or do We grow it? (4110).
5673 We, yes, We have made this (fire) a reminder, and a gift for all of you who surely need it. (The use of fire is one of the Divine gifts that distinguishes mankind from the Animal Kingdom).773 The people of Thamud were successors to Aad. To them We sent their brother, Saleh. He said, ?O My people! Serve Allah. You have no other god but He. The Clear Truth has come to you from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah, a token for your obedience. So let her feed in Allah?s earth and do not harm her lest painful torment seize you.? (Their feudal lords controlled land, crop, oases and water resources, and the weak were suffering. Saleh assigned a she-camel as a symbol of their reformation).
774 Saleh said, ?Remember how He made you inherit the land after Aad and established you therein. You build castles in the valleys and carve out homes in the mountains. So, remember Allah?s bounties and do not spread corruption in the land.?
775 Their leaders said to the believers, "How do you know that Saleh is sent from his Lord?" They responded, "We believe in the Message he has brought.? (The bringer of such Sublime Message cannot be a liar).
776 (The arrogant leaders and the feudal lords could see their vested interests getting hit, so they decided to reject the Divine Message.) The arrogant ones said to the believers, ?We reject what you believe in.?
777 They killed the she-camel, rebelled against their Lord?s Command and challenged, ?O? Saleh! Bring the doom you threaten us with, if you are really a Messenger.?1164 (The feudal lords had been depriving the poor of using the land and its natural resources of water and vegetation.) Saleh said, ?O My people! This she-camel belonging to Allah shall be a token for you. So leave her alone to graze in the land belonging to Allah. Do her no harm, lest speedy punishment befall you (9113).? (This verse along with 5510 pronounces one of the most revolutionary concepts of the Qur?an. The land, the earth is owned by none but Allah and must be open for all His creation as a means of sustenance. Hence, all landlord-ship is contrary to the Divine Ordinance. In the Divine System, the Central Authority will see to it that any piece of land will be for those who toil in it and give Allah His Right, the poor-due 6141).
? The earth and all its resources belong to Allah. It is such an obvious fact that no one can deny it (612, 1031, 2961 &63, 3125, 3424, 3910 &38, 439).
? Allah is the inheritor of the earth (1940).
? The earth has been created for the benefit of all (5510).
? It has been created to provide nourishment for all (5673).
? To Him belongs all that is in heavens and the earth, ?La hu ma fissamawati fil ardh? (2116, 2255, 4171, 540, 142, 1652, 206, 2264).
? ?Lillahi ma fissamawati fil ardh? (2284, 3109, 3129, 4131,132, 540, 1055, 1067, 142, 1652, 206, 2119, 341, 424, 4253, 5321).
? ?Lillahi miraathus samaawaatti wal ardh? (3180).
I cannot see anything in the above verses that restricts business size, is against profit, against employing anyone.
There is nothing in the above verses which is against capitalism.
regardsWow, all I have to say is, wow
First look at the top of the post to see what this whole post was about, look very hard at the definition of means of production, read the post over very carefully, read the definition of means of production again and what I have said about it, then look at the verses
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peace stillearning
Before you read this, I want to let you know that I know what you are doing, rather than face the facts you are questioning the definition of this and that so as not to admit that you were wrong, I have refrained from doing so in my responses as to avoid pointless debate but Im prolly gonna start takin it there just so we can both agree to skip past this part of the debate, for example in response to this you may ask, "what exactly do you mean by "know", "define for me pointless", etc.
Yet you have yet to give a theoretically sound, coherent definition of "capitalism" as I have asked which is actually the meat of the debate
Is the capitalist, whoeverhe/she may be, rsponsible for. inequality in ability or intelligence. I know capitalism is blamed for many things but this is a new one to me.
wow, just wow, did I blame capitalism for unequal ability and intelligence? If you don't understand I meant people were born inherently on an uneven level.
As opposed to those who will give up their personal wealth such as..............?
The righteous
Equality
Wow, is equality even something worth defining?
Main Entry 1equal
Pronunciation 'E-kw&l
Function adjective
Etymology Middle English, from Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal
1 a (1) of the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another (2) identical in mathematical value or logical denotation EQUIVALENT b like in quality, nature, or status c like for each member of a group, class, or society <provide equal employment opportunities>
2 regarding or affecting all objects in the same way IMPARTIAL
3 free from extremes as a tranquil in mind or mood b not showing variation in appearance, structure, or proportion
4 a capable of meeting the requirements of a situation or a task b SUITABLE <bored with work not equal to his abilities>
synonym see SAMEbut actually whether we define it or not, the verse says
And The God has preferred some of you over others in provision. Those who have been preferred will not relinquish their provision to those who are still dependant, so they may become equal in it. Are they denying the favour of The God? (1671)
It means equality in wealth
Excess
I believe mquran knows the absolute literal definition of the term used which can help give a better idea of the "quranic definition", we can discuss this rather than just letting me do all the defining, heres a good definition from the dictionary
Main Entry 1ex?cess
Pronunciation ik-'ses, 'ek-"
Function noun
Etymology Middle English, from Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French exces, from Late Latin excessus, from Latin, departure, projection, from excedere to exceed
1 a the state or an instance of surpassing usual, proper, or specified limits SUPERFLUITY b the amount or degree by which one thing or quantity exceeds another <an excess of 10 bushels>
2 undue or immoderate indulgence INTEMPERANCE; also an act or instance of intemperance <prevent excesses and abuses by newly created local powers -- Albert Shanker>- in excess of to an amount or degree beyond OVER
heres a good article I found on it
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/surplus.htm
Whatever is redundant and abundant (i.e. more than one's needs) must be left open to be expended in the cause of Allah (for the welfare of humanity). Please see the following verse
...they ask you (o Messenger), what should they spend (in the way of Allah); Say, "(Spend) what is beyond your needs"...
For more details about 'Infaaq', please click Here.
Allah tells the Messenger (a.s.) to take from the Believers what is beyond their needs (to be expended in the way/cause of Allah). See the following
Take what is redundant and abundant...
has the following meanings
that which is redundant and abundant or superfluous
that which is beyond one's needs
the surplus
The Quran suggests an economic system in which the surplus or superfluous shall be taken from those who do not need it to be expended on those who need it.
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salaam idris
Before you read this, I want to let you know that I know what you are doing, rather than face the facts you are questioning the definition of this and that so as not to admit that you were wrong,
I am glad to know that you know what I am donig as all these years I am still trying to work thhis out-obviousouly your wisdom is way beyond me.
If someone knows they are wrong and dont admit it-it can be called lying, which is very rude way to conduct ant discussion now let us see I think you started off by
Statting that in Islamic system does not allow excess profit(I cannot reacall exact words-but this was your point).
It is bit difficult to discuss this point without knowing what constitutes excess and I was not the only one to question this point and your reply was50% of the excess , in my opinion (2567). neither too much , nor too less . 50% would be perfect moderation .
You are entitled to your opinion( good or bad is irrelevent) if you are trying to justify it from Islamic prespective then back it up with some evidence. Thy verses you have quoted do not mention 50%.
Even taking your opinion to its logical conclusion-you make a billion and give up 50% and I make 10 rupees and give up 50% and I think you can work out what each of will be left with.
The reason I have asked you to define certain things is that people of ten discuss in slogans such as
I want to do good
I am against exploitation
So called Muslims often say I want Gods system.
The problem with all these is that they are nothing more than slogans until you are specific it does not mean very much.I will define my position for you again
The origin of this thread was that Islamic economic system was against the capitalism and my arguement was simply that it is not true the reasons being
Capitalism is for free trade-so is Islam
Capitalism does not restrict the quantity of profit-neither does Islam.
You have written lengthy posts but have not addressed fundemental point. The only quantifying stateement you have made is 50% and I have already dealt with it.In capitalism, initial distribution of wealth is determined by the free-market and competition which is based on an uneven level in the first place (inequality in ability, intelligence, opportunity, inheritance, etc.), its a sort of casino actually,
Tis was your initial quote and then
wow, just wow, did I blame capitalism for unequal ability and intelligence? If you don't understand I meant people were born inherently on an uneven level.
Ok I misunderstood your original point.
However I think your point is bit pointless-yes people are born with different level of abilities and that is why some in this world achieve more than others be it sport, science etc and business is no different in this regards.As opposed to those who will give up their personal wealth such as..............?
The righteous
Again you have written another slogan without really understanding. I have no idea who you consider righteous, but why cant a cpitalist be righteous. As I have already stated business and making profit are not against Islam-if you consider Isalm a righteous religion.
Equality
Wow, is equality even something worth defining?
It is indeed otherwise you have no idea what you are talking about. I will simplify it for you
When you talk about equality in a society are you talking about
(a) Every one having exactly equal amount of material wealth
(b) Every one having equal opportunities i.e all attend same level of school, do not their parents influence effect children
or are you talking about everone being equal in eyes of the law or the lord.
All very different equalities and if you cannot understand te difference then I am afraid there is not much point in both of us continuing this discussion as it then will really become pointless.Excess
I believe mquran knows the absolute literal definition of the term used which can help give a better idea of the "quranic definition", we can discuss this rather than just letting me do all the defining, heres a good definition from the dictionary
Good for mquran and anyone else for that matter who claims to know-but you made the central point of your anti capitalistic point and you now, I think, are not sure what it means.
Please stop trying to justify things in the name of Islam when you are not even clear yourself.If we are enagaged in this discussion to prove what clever chaps we are then we should bow out now. If the desire is to genuinely understand, and it requires certain degree of self honesty, Islam then I am happy to continue.
regards
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salaam Idris
Quote
50% of the excess , in my opinion (2567). neither too much , nor too less . 50% would be perfect moderation .Apologies this was not your quote.My mistake.
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salaam pm
These are the verses, I found on the subject.
Please, add if there are more.Quote
2267 O ye who believe! Give of the good things which ye have (honourably) earned, and of the fruits of the earth which We have produced for you, and do not even aim at getting anything which is bad, in order that out of it ye may give away something, when ye yourselves would not receive it except with closed eyes. And know that Allah is Free of all wants, and worthy of all praise.2268 The Evil one threatens you with poverty and bids you to conduct unseemly. Allah promiseth you His forgiveness and bounties. And Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things.
2269 He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.
2270 And whatever ye spend in charity or devotion, be sure Allah knows it all. But the wrong-doers have no helpers.
2271 If ye disclose (acts of) charity, even so it is well, but if ye conceal them, and make them reach those (really) in need, that is best for you It will remove from you some of your (stains of) evil. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do.
2272 It is not required of thee (O Messenger., to set them on the right path, but Allah sets on the right path whom He pleaseth. Whatever of good ye give benefits your own souls, and ye shall only do so seeking the "Face" of Allah. Whatever good ye give, shall be rendered back to you, and ye shall not Be dealt with unjustly.
2273 (Charity is) for those in need, who, in Allah's cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land, seeking (For trade or work) the ignorant man thinks, because of their modesty, that they are free from want. Thou shalt know them by their (Unfailing) mark They beg not importunately from all the sundry. And whatever of good ye give, be assured Allah knoweth it well.
2274 Those who (in charity) spend of their goods by night and by day, in secret and in public, have their reward with their Lord on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
2275 Those who devour usury will not stand except as stand one whom the Evil one by his touch Hath driven to madness. That is because they say "Trade is like usury," but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (The offence) are companions of the Fire They will abide therein (for ever).
2276 Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked.
2278 O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if ye are indeed believers.
2277 Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.2276 Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked.
From all these verses, I deduce that Allah asks us to give of how much ever we can(after our needs are met/excess) in charity. There is no specific mention of what excess is or how much we should give. But the more we give, the better. And we are encouraged to give more.
And there is also no prohibition on how much u earn, as long as it is earned through correct means.
Sorry glancing through missed your post.
I have not found any verses in the Quran which put a limit on size of any business, restrict the aamount of profit or that you cannot employ anyone to work in your trade and hence make a profit as aresult.
The verses evreyone has quoted have not proved anything to the contrary.reards
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peace stillearning,
I am glad to know that you know what I am donig as all these years I am still trying to work thhis out-obviousouly your wisdom is way beyond me.
If someone knows they are wrong and dont admit it-it can be called lying, which is very rude way to conduct ant discussion now let us see I think you started off by
Statting that in Islamic system does not allow excess profit(I cannot reacall exact words-but this was your point).
It allows excess, otherwise how could it be given away if not attained in the first place 2219
It is bit difficult to discuss this point without knowing what constitutes excess and I was not the only one to question this point and your reply was
50% of the excess , in my opinion (2567). neither too much , nor too less . 50% would be perfect moderation .
You are entitled to your opinion( good or bad is irrelevent) if you are trying to justify it from Islamic prespective then back it up with some evidence. Thy verses you have quoted do not mention 50%.
Even taking your opinion to its logical conclusion-you make a billion and give up 50% and I make 10 rupees and give up 50% and I think you can work out what each of will be left with.Saladin said this, not me lol
The reason I have asked you to define certain things is that people of ten discuss in slogans such as
I want to do good
I am against exploitation
So called Muslims often say I want Gods system.
The problem with all these is that they are nothing more than slogans until you are specific it does not mean very much.The problem is you claim to follow the quran/reading but are not making an attempt to define them yourself, plus many of the "slogans" I assumed were self-defined based on our shared following of God's book but I guess not
I will define my position for you again
The origin of this thread was that Islamic economic system was against the capitalism and my arguement was simply that it is not true the reasons being
Capitalism is for free trade-so is Islam
Capitalism does not restrict the quantity of profit-neither does Islam.
You have written lengthy posts but have not addressed fundemental point. The only quantifying stateement you have made is 50% and I have already dealt with it.Define free trade, define profit, the 50% statement was not mine as I have said above
Ok I misunderstood your original point.
However I think your point is bit pointless-yes people are born with different level of abilities and that is why some in this world achieve more than others be it sport, science etc and business is no different in this regards.Sure, but does one who has lesser abilities/intelligence than another deserve to be poor or poorer than someone with greater abilities/intelligence just for his inherent qualities?
Again you have written another slogan without really understanding. I have no idea who you consider righteous, but why cant a cpitalist be righteous. As I have already stated business and making profit are not against Islam-if you consider Isalm a righteous religion.
When I state righteous, excess, or any other "slogan", it is the "quranic" definition for the terms I expected you to generally know, but then again I wouldn't expect someone who tries conforming a man-made economy to God's socio-economic system to know much about the quran/reading, capitalists can't be righteous because of the system they adhere to and their position in it
It is indeed otherwise you have no idea what you are talking about. I will simplify it for you
When you talk about equality in a society are you talking about
(a) Every one having exactly equal amount of material wealth
(b) Every one having equal opportunities i.e all attend same level of school, do not their parents influence effect children
or are you talking about everone being equal in eyes of the law or the lord.
All very different equalities and if you cannot understand te difference then I am afraid there is not much point in both of us continuing this discussion as it then will really become pointless.I know, but the verse I showed clearly showed equality in material wealth and I stated as such, did you ignore it or not see it? obviously I know the different forms of equality as I have stated both kinds in my post, equality has one definition that can refer to different conditions as many adjectives do
Good for mquran and anyone else for that matter who claims to know-but you made the central point of your anti capitalistic point and you now, I think, are not sure what it means.
Please stop trying to justify things in the name of Islam when you are not even clear yourself.I am sure what it means, regardless thats not my central point but you brought it up as the central point of the post so I decided to argue it, what I meant is mquran knows the exact word for word meaning of the arabic term but i posted a good thing showing it, did you see it or ignore it? You are not clear about capitalism nor have you brought one centrally accepted book on capitalistic theory or one verse from the quran/reading, who is the unclear
If we are enagaged in this discussion to prove what clever chaps we are then we should bow out now. If the desire is to genuinely understand, and it requires certain degree of self honesty, Islam then I am happy to continue.
Honestly I'm just in this convo cause I never found any other person who claimed that capitalism and the quran/reading are the same, from impartial observers (non "muslimeen") I have heard them say the quran/reading follows a form of socialism or keynesian economics but I never heard capitalism, plus this is sharpening my skills on debating and knowledge of the reading/quran, so its all good
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salaam Idris
Capitalism-System in which trade and industry are controlled by private owners.Capitalist-Person who has money invested in business.
Definitions which you seem desperate to know-let me know what you consider is against an Islamic economic system according to the Quran.
Incidentally
It allows excess, otherwise how could it be given away if not attained in the first place 2219
Agreed-
so no difference between capitalism and Islam then.I know, but the verse I showed clearly showed equality in material wealth and I stated as such, did you ignore it or not see it?
So should evreyone have equal amount of material wealth?
In capitalism, the capitalists (owners of capital) own the means of production
and then
Where did I say anything about being INVOLVED in production
I misunderstood you again.
Honestly I'm just in this convo cause I never found any other person who claimed that capitalism and the quran/reading are the same,
I never met (until recently) anyone wo did not claim that hadith ewere words of God.
Sure, but does one who has lesser abilities/intelligence than another deserve to be poor or poorer than someone with greater abilities/intelligence just for his inherent qualities?
No one needs to be poor-but that is different issue and nothing to do with Quran being anti-quranic.
capitalists can't be righteous because of the system they adhere to and their position in it
really! I have no idea what you mean.
Before we go round in circles.
You ave the power to set up an economic system according to Quran.
Tell me what difference you will have from te capitalist systemOh by the way(between you and me ) My sympathies are more with socialism-but then that is not what we are discussing here
regards
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peace stillearning,
Capitalism-System in which trade and industry are controlled by private owners.
Capitalist-Person who has money invested in business.
Definitions which you seem desperate to know-let me know what you consider is against an Islamic economic system according to the Quran.
Incidentally
You've told me these, I know, I want theoretical backing based on an accepted book for capitalism as Marx's works are for Communism
-I see no description of a CEO/worker relationship in the quran/reading but individual trading is encouraged, the concept of the capitalist class owning the land, factories, machines, etc. is inherently unquranic as it depends on the labor of the working class to make their profit, it is wage-slavery-where people are forced to sell themselves to be used for production and private profit, nobody should "own" the means of production (land, resources, tools, factories, etc) whether private or public ownership as God owns them but a particular group of people should be in charge of distribution and utilization for the best of humanity and that is the righteous, im not gonna lie, this part im still uncertain on, whether it should be the righteous or the people as a whole but regardless neither can be classified as capitalists
-Ok, the concept of investment, it doesnt even make sense, if i put 20 dollars down on a business and the workers increase production my investment value will increase while the wages of the workers stay the same, i did absolutely nothing besides gamble in the stock market and gained money, while those that did the work gained nothing, if you gain money from investment by doing no work, then somebody is working and gaining no money, this falls under the category of riba
-So far I've been arguing how capitalism is different from the quran/reading, pretty soon ill get into how capitalism is the exact opposite of God's system
Agreed-
so no difference between capitalism and Islam then.Ive been saying that the whole time, the problem with saying there no difference between capitalism and Islam on this is that the excess is to be distributed among the poor and weak of societies while distribution into the economy for goods or investment is no different than "hoarding" as it is still hoarding your money if you use the excess for yourself rather than charity, you seem to think that "hoarding" and being "stingy" is just keeping the money but its also only using it for yourself, excess is allowed in socialism and communism as well but must be given up for the good of humanity
So should evreyone have equal amount of material wealth?
Yes
I misunderstood you again.
k
I never met (until recently) anyone wo did not claim that hadith ewere words of God.
lol far from the same, as many "quran alone muslims" still inherently believe in capitalism without recognizing it, but I guess this all doesn't matter, lets just argue theoretics
No one needs to be poor-but that is different issue and nothing to do with Quran being anti-quranic.
I wish capitalists thought more like you, but im not sure what ur talking about the "to do with Quran being anti-quranic", here are some quotes from capitalist theorists
Defoe argued, in his pamphlet entitled Giving alms no charity and employing charily and employing the poor a grievance to the nation, that
If the poor were relieved they would remain idle, or alternatively that if they set to work in public institutions, the private manufacturer was equally deprived of his source of labour, the conclusion?expressed in modern term?being that they should be thrown on the market and allowed to starve if they failed to find a place there.
Mandeville pointed the conclusion in his Fable of Bees that
The poor have nothing to stir them up to be serviceable but their wants, which it is prudence to relieve but folly to cure. To make society happy it is necessary that great numbers should be wretched as well as poor.
In more clear terms, William Townsend declared in his Dissertation on the Poor Laws that
Hunger will tame the fiercest animals, it will teach decency and civility, obedience and subjugation, to the most perverse. In general, it is only hunger can spur and goad them (the poor) on to labour.
really! I have no idea what you mean.
By the inherent qualities of the righteous/salih described in the reading/quran, the capitalist can never be considered righteous as they do not fit into all the inherent qualities, as simple as that, in fact they are considered kafir because they withhold the blessings of God from humanity-one of the definitions of kafir, plus they fit into descriptions of the kafir in the quran/reading, the righteous willingly distribute their excess to create equality in society while capitalists disrupt the balance through hoarding and greediness creating poverty and inequality, they oppress the people, subjugate the weaker nations, and do all sorts of evil for individual profit, capitalism teaches that the drive for profit and greater profit should have no moral sanctions
Before we go round in circles.
You ave the power to set up an economic system according to Quran.
Tell me what difference you will have from te capitalist system-No capital allowed to be attained without labor (therefore cutting the CEO/worker relationship, investment for profit, stock market, financial interest, etc.)
-how much one earns should not be determined by the form of job but by how hard one works
-no unequal distribution of wealth or poverty
-no deprivation of basic needs
-no capitalist ownership of the means of production
-etc.other things based off individual observations-no manipulative advertising, no imperialism, different incentive for work, etc.
Oh by the way(between you and me ) My sympathies are more with socialism-but then that is not what we are discussing here
cool, same here but i tend to go all the way with communism if i could choose man made systems, but as none of them recognize God they are all inherently flawed and will not work in the long run
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Hi Stillearning,
Sorry glancing through missed your post.
I have not found any verses in the Quran which put a limit on size of any business, restrict the aamount of profit or that you cannot employ anyone to work in your trade and hence make a profit as aresult.
The verses evreyone has quoted have not proved anything to the contrary.No problems. I just wanted to know if any specifications are mentioned in Quran. Some in the forum, were saying 50 % and some 1/5th. But there seem to be no such specification in Quran. All I can understand from the verses I quoted is that we should give charity and the more the better.
And for the economic system, I suppose the problem with capitalism would be that, though it has good advantages such as permitting free trade, unlimited growth potential etc, it also gives a huge chance for exploitation of the poor. There is no stopping of 'greed'.
I think, the system can be a good system, only and only if every man can be honest about his moral obligations towards values and humanity.And I feel certain key public sectors such as health care, education, utilities, banking etc are better dealt with, according to democratic socialist system so that people 's basic needs, aren't compromised at any cost.
Peace!
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Hi Idris,
So should evreyone have equal amount of material wealth?
YesIs this supported by Quran or is it ur opinion? That all of mankind should have equal amount of material wealth.
Can u please quote the verse from Quran that supports this?Peace!