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Islamic Economic System

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    Fahad1
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    copied from http//toluislam.com/index.pl/pm?wid=18&func=viewSubmission&sid=400

    Islamic Economic System (By Prof. Mohammed Rafi)

    ECONOMICS is a science concerned with production, distribution and consumption of goods, services, wealth and resources. It plays a significant role in the social structure of Islam, so significant that Allah did not leave the economic aspect of life to be determined by pure human intellect and experience, but made it the subject of Revelation.

    The Quran categorically promises peace and plenty for those who follow the Divine Code and for those who turn away from it, it promises scarcity (20123,124). In this verse the term maeeshat has been used from which comes the word mashiyaat the translation of economics recognised by all.

    The Quranic order of life does not put off the realization of its fruits until after death. The economic conditions of a people constitute a pragmatic test for the soundness of the revealed guidance. Those who do not ensure that the poor are provided their due help, will ultimately taste hell (6934,35)(768,9,10). Nobody has seen hell, but its taste is quite evident when the poor, exploited and the downtrodden masses unleash their fury on the wealthy. Those who have the means must help the needy without prejudice (3038, 2215).

    Surah Inam (611) contains an assertion that there is no one moving with life whose sustenance has not been assured by Allah. Surah Bani Israel (1731) assures mankind in particular, that they should not kill their offspring fearing poverty, since Allah provides sustenance for them as well as for their offspring. But with this solemn assurance on the one hand, we see on the other hand millions dying of hunger and struggling for food. Does this indicate non-fulfilment of the responsibility solemnly assured by Allah? No, that is unthinkable. How do the two positions reconcile? Surrah Yasin (3647) shows that where human efforts and affairs are concerned, Allah?s responsibility is discharged not directly but indirectly through human beings. Allah does not feed the hungry directly; the social order established to enforce Divine laws feeds them.

    The mutual relationship between the individual and the Islamic social order is an unwritten agreement ? a contract with Allah, in which the individuals surrender their life and possessions to Allah in return for Jannah (911). Of these, life and possessions are tangible and identifiable commodities and the seller (Believer) is a living being. The other two, God and Jannah, are abstract and intangible. In precise economic practice how can it be possible to strike a bargain with the buyer (God) with the price missing, or at best remaining in imagination? ?Selling one?s life to Allah is an empty slogan, a deluding mirage used as a tool by the religious oligarchy to hoodwink and emotionally mislead the ignorant masses. The contract can be meaningful only when it is realized that God and Jannah are as real as man and life. Only bringing God and Jannah into intimate and vital relationship with living human experience can do this.

    This is exactly what the Quran does, there is undoubtedly a Jannah which will be attained after death, but according to the Quran, the life of Jannah can also be attained in this world provided a social order is built on the lines given by God. The main characteristics of this earthly Jannah have been cited in Sura Taha (2011 wherein none will remain without food or clothes none will suffer thirst nor heat. In other words, in the earthly Jannah no one remains unprovided with the basic necessities of life.

    Muslims are those who give preference and priority to the needs of others than their own. (599) The Quran even admonishes those namazis who are ignorant of man?s needs and fail to provide food to the hungry and sit on the sources of nourishment. Such worshippers (namazis) disgrace their religion (1071-7).

    Physical needs have a prior claim on man. Hunger is the most powerful of these needs. A hungry man has no eyes for values and will only turn to higher interests when his hunger is appeased. Before engaging in good deeds, man demands an assurance that he and his children will not starve for want of food. The Quran gives this assurance. ?We will provide you and your children? (6152, 1731, 2960).

    The Islamic economic and social system lays down certain fundamental principles, the foremost being that the earth cannot be the property of any individual. It is a means of production and shall remain available for the needy in an equal manner. (4110) There (in the land) is sustenance for you, those for whom you do not provide? (1520). It is thus clear that land, like water, air, heat and light, is God?s gift to all men. For a man to claim proprietary rights of them is tantamount to claiming equality with God.

    Surah Al-Waqiah (5663-73) discusses the cultivation of land and the role of the tiller. It is clear that this Divine programme we participate in is a joint business venture in which the capital investment is made by God and we contribute only labour; while we must hand over the rest to God, that is to the needy for the development of society.

    Allama Iqbal in Bal-e-Jibril, expresses this idea in terms of exquisite beauty and concludes ?Who nourishes the seed in the soil?/ Where no ray of light penetrates?/ Who raises clouds from the waves of the ocean?/ Who drove hither favourable wind from the West?/ Whose is the soil, whose the light of the Sun?/ Who has filled the ear of corn with pearly grain?/ Who has taught the seasons to change with regularity? Landowner! The land is neither thine nor mine?.

    The second principle is that surplus money, the basis of capitalism, should not remain with individuals. Surah Baqra (2219) contains a question and its answer. The question asked by the faithful is ?How much money should we keep open for the social order for meeting the needs of the needy?? The answer given by the Quran is ?Say? whatever is left, after meeting your own needs. The word sood or interest is not to be found in the Quran.

    Practices which are harmful to and create hurdles in the growth and progress of humanity have been collectively called Al-Riba by the Quran. It includes loans; interest on it is only one aspect of Riba. The hoarding of wealth, exploitation of the hard labour of others and usurping their due is also Riba. In general, wealth earned through wealth is Riba.

    The third principle is that wealth shall circulate throughout the different strata of society and not only through the upper stratum (597). Those who defend capitalism argue that a communistic society deprives man of the incentive to work and that in a capitalistic society there is full scope for private enterprise and individual initiative. Everyone works because he knows that he will enjoy the fruits of his labour. National wealth increases and the people are hardworking and prosperous. Capitalists however fail to realise that while making the rich richer, it has often driven the poor to the verge of starvation. In a communist set-up man is hardly free. He is a mere cog in a gigantic machine; a member of a highly regimented society.

    The Quranic social order shall be established in stages and not overnight. ?Verily the promised revolution is sure to come; there is doubt about it yet most of mankind believe not ?(4059). This is what the West is afraid of. To some extent they have been successful in getting rid of communism, but in picking Islam as their next enemy they have erred.

    The policy of killing Muslims is not going to destroy the Islamic economic concepts; rather a large majority of the people in the West are curiously turning to study Islamic values. This is a war they are not going to win; as the Quran proclaims that ?All man-made systems will eventually fail and die, only the true Islamic economic political and social system will survive the test of time and dominate. The Quran proposes diverse measures to guard against the accumulation of wealth in the hands of few. Usury i.e. money earned through capital is declared to be unlawful and a war against God (2275).

    Man is advised to help his parents, relatives and others in need. By prohibiting hoarding, it ensures that money is kept in circulation. Muhammad (PBUH) never hoarded a single penny throughout his ?life, nor owned any property. There are all claims of being Ashiq-e-Rasool, but nobody follows Muhammad (PBUH) in this respect. Islam prescribes compulsory social insurance through the system of Zakat which is altogether different from charity. The conventional assessment of 2+ per cent of one?s wealth appears to be retrogressive, as it has remained stagnant for centuries like the Muslim mind and society. Through Ijtehad, this has to be changed and made progressive according to the needs of society.

    The Fifth principle of the Quran is that no one shall subsist on the earnings of another and that expecting those who have become incapacitated everyone shall work. The Quran calls them Mutrafeen who lead an easy life on the earning of others and mentions three groups. One group consists of those who take with even balance and give less (with an un-even balance). Another group comprises those who inherit money, land, property, etc., by reason of birth and collect more wealth as a consequence. (8920) The third group is made of priest-craft. Surah Tauba (931) refers to such clerics and says that the majority of them eat up the earnings of others without having any right to it and thereby stand in the way of the benefit of humanity. In respect of the earnings of women, the Quran says that they have full rights over what they earn (432). All monetary transactions should be formally documented (2282).

    Islamic economic system is a liberal, progressive, productive and intensely responsive order from social point of view. While it definitely tends to control capital, it insists on man?s pursuit of the absolute values and the service of whole mankind. It is distinctive and cannot be equated with communism on account of its antithetical evaluation of free enterprise, private property and class struggle, nor with capitalism on account of Islam?s uncompromising opposition to the institution of interest. Supreme value is given to human self and its development. This distinguishes Islam from other systems.

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      stillearning
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      salaam saladin

      The second principle is that surplus money, the basis of capitalism, should not remain with individuals. Surah Baqra (2219) contains a question and its answer. The question asked by the faithful is ?How much money should we keep open for the social order for meeting the needs of the needy?? The answer given by the Quran is ?Say? whatever is left, after meeting your own needs. The word sood or interest is not to be found in the Quran.

      Intersting article indeed.
      The above, I think, forms the heart of your article. HHowever the crucial question, highlighted, is what is surplus to needs. Your needs may be very different to my needs therefore the interpertations could vary immensely.
      A capitalist may argue with you that in true capitalism the excess would be recirculated into the economy as a form of reinvestment and the rest is what is required for his own needs.
      I am not aware, and correct me if I am wrong, Islam does not restrict the amount you can earn and neither does Islam restrict legitimate business. Therefore the difference from capitalism becomes interpertation of what consitutes legitimate own needs-otherwise I have not come across a satisfactory explanation of how islamic economic system differs from capitalism.
      I would appreciate some logical and clear thoughts on this issue.
      regards

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        mquran
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Salaamun alaikum,

        SLA capitalist may argue with you that in true capitalism the excess would be recirculated into the economy as a form of reinvestment and the rest is what is required for his own needs.

        I would then ask him, what's the strategy employed for his 'reinvestment'. His answer would end the similarities between Al-islaam and capitalism, i think.

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          stillearning
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          walikum salaam

          would then ask him, what's the strategy employed for his 'reinvestment'. His answer would end the similarities between Al-islaam and capitalism, i think.

          I do not understand your point-please elaborate
          regards

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            mquran
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            I do not understand your point-please elaborate

            Ok. When a capitalist says his profit/excess goes back into the economy, he's not lying. However, his reinvestment strategy is to maximise more profit and profit to him is measured materially.

            Contrast that with a believer. For him, his excess of usage goes to -on the face anyway- people who won't bring a return, the 'lowest' in a society. But he trusts Allah and does it anyway and ultimately, Allah rewards his truth with 'salaam'.

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              stillearning
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Ok. When a capitalist says his profit/excess goes back into the economy, he's not lying. However, his reinvestment strategy is to maximise more profit and profit to him is measured materially.

              That is one interpertation.
              It could also be that the excess profit is invested to enerate more wealth for the society as whole to benefit i.e the cycle of reinvestment continues.
              Let us take an example(hhypothetical) of an engineer invents a machine to plough the land more efficently-makes uge profits-reinvests in biggger factories to produce even more tractors hence more farmers work more effiently increase their output-more profits for the engineer-more investnent into research/machinery etc for better methods of farming leading to increased qunatity and quality of food.
              How would that contradict islamic economic system
              regards

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                Idris
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                peace stillearning,

                That is one interpertation.
                It could also be that the excess profit is invested to enerate more wealth for the society as whole to benefit i.e the cycle of reinvestment continues.
                Let us take an example(hhypothetical) of an engineer invents a machine to plough the land more efficently-makes uge profits-reinvests in biggger factories to produce even more tractors hence more farmers work more effiently increase their output-more profits for the engineer-more investnent into research/machinery etc for better methods of farming leading to increased qunatity and quality of food.
                How would that contradict islamic economic system
                regards

                Because the reading/quran does not state the purpose of distributing ones' excess wealth is for creating bigger, better, and more efficient means of "farming" or other things but for the welfare of the weak and economically lowest members of society, likewise the concept of making profits, regardless of what the bourgie do with the profit, is in itself unjust, labor is the only thing that puts value in a product, therefore one that outputs all the labor deserves complete reimbursment for their work, the capitalists leach off the work of others to generate their own private profit, the man mentioned in your above example does not work but merely "invests" and recieves return on his capital without putting forth any work, this clearly contradicts 2275-282 and tons of verses that point out that ones work should be the reason for ones rewards, capitalism is the a system based on man's selfish desires (satan) and therefore is directly opposite of God's system of economics based on the welfare of all

                this was a quick reply, but once you reply we can get more technical into it

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                  stillearning
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  salaam idris

                  Because the reading/quran does not state the purpose of distributing ones' excess wealth is for creating bigger, better, and more efficient means of "farming" or other things but for the welfare of the weak and economically lowest members of society, likewise the concept of making profits, regardless of what the bourgie do with the profit, is in itself unjust, labor is the only thing that puts value in a product, therefore one that outputs all the labor deserves complete reimbursment for their work, the capitalists leach off the work of others to generate their own private profit, the man mentioned in your above example does not work but merely "invests" and recieves return on his capital without putting forth any work, this clearly contradicts 2275-282 and tons of verses that point out that ones work should be the reason for ones rewards, capitalism is the a system based on man's selfish desires (satan) and therefore is directly opposite of God's system of economics based on the welfare of all

                  this was a quick reply, but once you reply we can get more technical into it

                  Is not the creation of better and more efficent farmin not bettert for the poor and needy.
                  Why should the making of profit necessarily not concide with the welfare of the weak and poor. Increased efficency of farming should result in more for the weak and poor-and if it means more profit for the original inventor why should that bother the original poor who now also has more.
                  There is nothing to stop the excess profit going back into helping the needy in the community.
                  I am not sure how you define labour and how you value how much reimbursement for each portion of labour should be.
                  Is inventing and selling or selling goods at profit in any way opposed by the Quran?. I have not come across any such inhibition.
                  If profit is allowed then how are you going to decide how mich is just or unjust profit.
                  I cannot see how the verses you have Quoted or any other verse for that matter inhibits an inventor from making a profit from his invention or putting a limit on the amount.
                  regards

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                    Idris
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    peace stillearning,

                    Is not the creation of better and more efficent farmin not bettert for the poor and needy.
                    Why should the making of profit necessarily not concide with the welfare of the weak and poor.

                    increasing efficiency and better farming is fine, should it be considered an act of charity though and contributing to the betterment of society? even though it may indirectly end up as so, the original intention of the investor was to make a profit while the fluke outcome was better technology, nothing is produced in a capitalist economy unless there is a profit to be made, plus the scenario you presented doesn't necessarily guarentee increasing efficency and farming technology, what you have done (as many capitalist economists do) is present a bunch of "ifs" and "causes" which leads to "this" and "that", there are many outside forces that may interfere with the process of investment that you mentioned, market economics is far from a stable science, for example there is no guarentee that there will be an increase in research of agricultural technology in your scenario

                    plus increasing the efficiency of the means of production is not something unique to capitalism, we need a system where the means of production can be bettered without exploitation

                    Increased efficency of farming should result in more for the weak and poor-and if it means more profit for the original inventor why should that bother the original poor who now also has more.

                    the fact is that hunger is not caused by a lack of food or technology but by poverty and the inability to purchase it, to answer the second part, the working class is exploited to make this profit, the people that have to farm, manufacture the technological devices, etc., if one invests money, does no work and gets money in return, that means someone is doing the work and not getting any or getting little money

                    There is nothing to stop the excess profit going back into helping the needy in the community.

                    How about the greed generated in a capitalist system? How about the unrealistic scenario of capitalists giving up their excess profits for the good of humanity? This charity is not forced so the idea of capitalists voluntary surrenduring their excess wealth is a fantasy. In 841, 20% of the "gains of war" (theres some controversy on whether its about war or not) are said to go to the poor and other people, is this to be invested in some business or directly distributed to the people? Unless you believe in the "trickle down theory" so blindly you would think it would go directly to the poor or programs to help the poor. Trillions of dollars are invested in tons of corporate services throughout the U.S. yet 37 million people are still poor, most if not all investment ends up into the pockets of the rich

                    I am not sure how you define labour and how you value how much reimbursement for each portion of labour should be.
                    Is inventing and selling or selling goods at profit in any way opposed by the Quran?. I have not come across any such inhibition.

                    Well, lets get the verses about trade and labor and we can discuss them to see the position of the quran/reading, we can also discuss the nature of profit, Ill give a quick definition

                    Gains earned in excess to ones needs

                    Now I'm not arguing against profit but merely profit earned on the labor of others (riba) obviously one has to earn a profit to have excess wealth to give up but it should be generated based on ones' productivity

                    If profit is allowed then how are you going to decide how mich is just or unjust profit.

                    Unjust profit shouldn't be allowed, but just profit earned from ones' labor should be allowed, though the excess should still be contributed for the good of society

                    I cannot see how the verses you have Quoted or any other verse for that matter inhibits an inventor from making a profit from his invention or putting a limit on the amount.
                    regards

                    There's a few nice verses on hoarding wealth im sure ur aware of, 2275-282 forbids any wealth earned through riba, which I can argue is the basis of capitalism

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                      unknownuser
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Hi Idris,

                      Unjust profit shouldn't be allowed, but just profit earned from ones' labor should be allowed, though the excess should still be contributed for the good of society

                      I understand by unjust profit, u mean one obtained by expoliting the poor or any other wrong means. I agree on that.
                      But what do u mean by 'excess' in just profit? How do v decide what's excess? Do each of us decide this ourself?

                      peace!

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                        Idris
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        peace,

                        But what do u mean by 'excess' in just profit? How do v decide what's excess? Do each of us decide this ourself?

                        This has been a question of 2219 for a while, excess/surplus of one's basic needs, basics needs are what one needs to survive and live comfortably, it has been speculated that it is 20% of one's income such as in 841, the reading/quran has said we must contribute of the excess (2219) Whether it left us to define excess/surplus is up for debate

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                          Fahad1
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          salam.

                          I am not aware, and correct me if I am wrong, Islam does not restrict the amount you can earn and neither does Islam restrict legitimate business.

                          islam does not restrict earning but it forbids hoarding .

                          Therefore the difference from capitalism becomes interpertation of what consitutes legitimate own needs-otherwise I have not come across a satisfactory explanation of how islamic economic system differs from capitalism.

                          i think our legitimate needs dont differ much . how much money does one require for those needs . after saving for those needs , the rest should be given away moderately to the needy .

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                            mquran
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            StillearningThat is one interpertation.
                            It could also be that the excess profit is invested to enerate more wealth for the society as whole to benefit i.e the cycle of reinvestment continues.
                            Let us take an example(hhypothetical) of an engineer invents a machine to plough the land more efficently-makes uge profits-reinvests in biggger factories to produce even more tractors hence more farmers work more effiently increase their output-more profits for the engineer-more investnent into research/machinery etc for better methods of farming leading to increased qunatity and quality of food.
                            How would that contradict islamic economic system

                            Do the 'bigger factories' need workers? If so, he would be putting people to work, which is a good thing. However, will he try to liberate these workers or keep them in perpetual bondage or will he provide them opportunities to emancipate themselves. That would determine if he contradicts Al-islaam or not.

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                              stillearning
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              salaam

                              saladinislam does not restrict earning but it forbids hoarding .

                              Neither does capitalism it encourages circulation of wealth. If you thhink capitalism is about hoarding then you have misunderstood capitalism.

                              i think our legitimate needs dont differ much . how much money does one require for those needs . after saving for those needs , the rest should be given away moderately to the needy

                              Is that not the reason for zakat, taxes-social welfare system to help the needy. Is not an organised welfare system muchh better than the unpredictable nature of depending on charity?

                              But what do u mean by 'excess' in just profit? How do v decide what's excess? Do each of us decide this ourself?

                              Excellent point. That is why it is important to be precise how a particular system is to function rather than vague generalisations such as just, moral,needy etc without specifying exactly what we mean.

                              nothing is produced in a capitalist economy unless there is a profit to be made

                              Not true. Most capitalist systems have some form of social welfare system(quality of which can vary) and I dont know what profit is to be made from this.

                              there are many outside forces that may interfere with the process of investment that you mentioned, market economics is far from a stable science, for example there is no guarentee that there will be an increase in research of agricultural technology in your scenario

                              I am quite happy to accept better alternatives, such as?

                              we need a system where the means of production can be bettered without exploitation

                              Cannot we have laws to protect against exploitation. In fact most capitalist countries have these laws. The only objection may be what is regarded as exploitation.

                              How about the greed generated in a capitalist system? How about the unrealistic scenario of capitalists giving up their excess profits for the good of humanity?

                              Greed is not confined to capitalist or capitalism. I am not also sure wat you consider greed. Do most people not all desire for better material things such as house, car clothes etc. does this not constitute greed.
                              What constitutes a desire for better things and at what point does it become greed?

                              Unjust profit shouldn't be allowed, but just profit earned from ones' labor should be allowed, though the excess should still be contributed for the good of society

                              Please outline what you consider unjust profit and what is just. Equally you will have to beprecise what is excess to ones need. As I might be happy with a donkey as means of transport but others may want a personal jumbo jet etc.

                              Whilst greed, unjust profit, excess to need etc all sound very good and are an excellent speech material for any politician but without quantifying what they mean it becomes difficult to explain what they mean.
                              For me Islam does not forbid business-same as capitalism
                              Islam does not prohibit profit-same as capitalism
                              Islam does not put a limit on profit-same as capitalism
                              Islam advocates zakat-a good capitalist system will have robust welfare system paid by taxes(amount is determined by earning) appears very similar to me.

                              regards

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                                mquran
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                Whilst greed, unjust profit, excess to need etc all sound very good and are an excellent speech material for any politician but without quantifying what they mean it becomes difficult to explain what they mean.

                                1/5'th of ghanim/profitable utilisations are for the categories mentioned in 8/41. Furthermore, 'tasdeeq' or 'confirming' is needed to avoid a ribaa-based society (2/275-279)

                                For me Islam does not forbid business-same as capitalism
                                Islam does not prohibit profit-same as capitalism
                                Islam does not put a limit on profit-same as capitalism
                                Islam advocates zakat-a good capitalist system will have robust welfare system paid by taxes(amount is determined by earning) appears very similar to me.

                                Sadly, in terms of overall strategic goals, i.e. what counts, capitalism is very different from al-islaam.

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                                  stillearning
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  1/5'th of ghanim/profitable utilisations are for the categories mentioned in 8/41. Furthermore, 'tasdeeq' or 'confirming' is needed to avoid a ribaa-based society (2/275-279)

                                  I tink most would be more than happy to ive 1/5 of their excess earnings. as many pay far in excess.
                                  I understood 8/41 referred to spoils of war.
                                  What is riba based society?

                                  Sadly, in terms of overall strategic goals, i.e. what counts, capitalism is very different from al-islaam.

                                  I am not sure what you mean please explain.
                                  reards

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                                    mquran
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    I tink most would be more than happy to ive 1/5 of their excess earnings. as many pay far in excess.
                                    I understood 8/41 referred to spoils of war.
                                    What is riba based society?

                                    8/41 says 'ghanimtum min shai'in' which means profit/utilisation from a thing. The words in war isnt there.

                                    A ribaa based society is where the murabis/practitioners keep their slaves under constant bondage and refuse them emancipation. Tasdeeq does not take place. Ribaa constantly multiplies its beneficiaries and weakens society (3/130).

                                    I am not sure what you mean please explain

                                    No economic philosophy is free of ethos. If you study economics as in the schools teach, it proposes the prediction of economic outcomes based on the prediction of human behaviour. The human behaviour is generally expected to be materialistic. No spiritual consideration is necessary. Capitalism is devoid of any purposeful ethical propositions but it doesn't mean it lacks them. To me, it proposes constant growth with no ethical restrictions.

                                    Al-islaam on the other hand, bases its ethos on metaphysics. I call it the metaphysical economics because God becomes the fifth (read first) economic agent. You give to the weakest because God promises you success for all if you do.

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                                      Idris
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      peace stillearning,

                                      another thing, before you start replying you have yet to bring any verses to show capitalism is supported in the reading/quran, just thought i would remind you

                                      Not true. Most capitalist systems have some form of social welfare system(quality of which can vary) and I dont know what profit is to be made from this.

                                      True, some do, especially in European countries, but the welfare state has not always been prevalent, it became prevalent in the early 20th century to ease the suffering of workers so as to maintain the system from the growing communist revolution, and in many Third World countries where neoliberalism (extreme capitalism) is enforced by the World Bank/IMF/WTO along with SAPs there is no trace of a welfare, in theory capitalism is a free market system and government interference in economic matters goes against the heart of capitalism

                                      I am quite happy to accept better alternatives, such as?

                                      God's system is a good alternative, if you think not we can get into some participatory economics and many alternatives that I know of

                                      Cannot we have laws to protect against exploitation. In fact most capitalist countries have these laws. The only objection may be what is regarded as exploitation.

                                      Exactly, capitalists will not sign laws that change the system but merely reform it from within, the system itself is based on exploitation

                                      Greed is not confined to capitalist or capitalism. I am not also sure wat you consider greed. Do most people not all desire for better material things such as house, car clothes etc. does this not constitute greed.
                                      What constitutes a desire for better things and at what point does it become greed?

                                      Greed is wanting more than you need to live a moderate lifestyle, basically greed is a desire for excess, hoarding your wealth or maintaining profit, you may say that hoarding goes against capitalism because the theory wants us to have our wealth flow throughout the economy but in reality the rich just keep their extremely excessive profits in banks and dont use most of them, plus God's system is not about wealth flowing throughout the economy but to the poorest of society (597)

                                      Please outline what you consider unjust profit and what is just. Equally you will have to beprecise what is excess to ones need. As I might be happy with a donkey as means of transport but others may want a personal jumbo jet etc.

                                      A corporation can run without a boss but it can't run without workers, no capitalist will knowingly hire you unless the value of the goods/services that you produce is greater than the wage he pays you, ill give you a few good examples

                                      All value inherited in commodities stems from labor, as opposed to capital. i.e. if one were left to his whims in the wilderness with only his labor to live by, he would be able to forge tools to create capital with, and thus an endless supply of wealth. If this man were a capitalist on the other hand, and tried to survive without working, he would be dead in a matter of days. Because capital alone is not enough to create wealth, you can see that labor alone IS enough to create wealth

                                      Say for instance that a worker assembles simple toys in a capitalist's factory for $5 per hour. Let us imagine the worker combines 2 plastic pieces, which cost the capitalist $1 each, to create the toys. The worker creates ten new toys per hour, so the capitalist has put forward $25 to create ten new toys. Now the capitalist makes the toys available for sale for $3 each, so that he receives $30 for the 10 toys. From this we see that the materials to create ten toys cost the capitalist $20, and the labor-power of the worker cost the capitalist $5, so he received a profit of $5.*

                                      Where does this profit come from? It comes from the exploitation of the worker! If the twenty plastic pieces alone were only worth $20, how then could the completed toys be sold for $30? What increased the value of these plastic pieces? It was the labor-power of the worker, which turned the raw materials into a new commodity. From this we see that the labor-power of the worker added a value of $10, but the worker was only played $5 for her hour of labor-power. Her labor-power was sold as a commodity to the capitalist, in hour increments, just as the plastic is sold to the capitalist in pieces.

                                      What's unique about the labor-power of the worker is that it is the only commodity which creates new value. Therefor we see that the worker is exploited for her labor-power, the necessary commodity in all creation of value, and only receives a share of the value she has created. Now the worker who created 10 toys in one hour, can only afford to buy 1 of them with the $5 wage she received.

                                      With this constant exploitation, the working class receives only enough of a share of the value it creates to keep it in working, and reproducing, condition. That is, to keep the workers alive, with enough wealth to create new workers.

                                      Speaking on your other second part, this is besides the point, what do you think God means by the excess/surplus in 2219? Do you think God has no idea what hes talking about. I don't think it is relative, but excess is beyond your basic needs, food, clothes, water, shelter, transportation, you can be excessive in these as well, for example a jumbo jet or helicopter, do you really need such expensive technology for going from place to place when you can easily buy a car and give what you would have spent to the people who need it, you can be excessive in buying cars too, such as buying a Hummer that guzzles an insane amount of gas or buying one car for each person in a family when one car can fit 4 or 5 people

                                      Whilst greed, unjust profit, excess to need etc all sound very good and are an excellent speech material for any politician but without quantifying what they mean it becomes difficult to explain what they mean.

                                      Lol in a modern day U.S. politician were to speak in such terms, trust me, the business community would have his ass

                                      For me Islam does not forbid business-same as capitalism

                                      Neither does socialism or communism, but monopoly capitalism does prohibit small businesses

                                      Islam does not prohibit profit-same as capitalism
                                      Islam does not put a limit on profit-same as capitalism

                                      True but it does have laws which speak on what you can keep, how you should spend it, and how you should earn it, in capitalism there are no such laws and contradict the capitalism theory, the only laws are perhaps on how you earn it but these are rarely enforced among the capitalist elite and doesnt cut at the heart of the matter

                                      Islam advocates zakat-a good capitalist system will have robust welfare system paid by taxes(amount is determined by earning) appears very similar to me.

                                      Zakaa does not refer to a tax, but growth in general, check project root list and dictionaries to confirm this, btw the progressive income tax was supported by Karl Marx as well

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                                        stillearning
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        8/41 says 'ghanimtum min shai'in' which means profit/utilisation from a thing. The words in war isnt there

                                        May be not. I dont know arabic but all the translators (the ones I have read anyway)have mentioned the word war. Wonder why? as the word profit/utilisation would seem far more ethical than spoils of war!

                                        A ribaa based society is where the murabis/practitioners keep their slaves under constant bondage and refuse them emancipation. Tasdeeq does not take place. Ribaa constantly multiplies its beneficiaries and weakens society (3/130).

                                        Working is not slavery. There may be anecdotal cases but vast majority in the capitalist societies today are not slaves-need to work is not the same as being forced to work. I was not aware that capitalism advocates slavery or perhaps you are refering to a different system?

                                        To me, it proposes constant growth with no ethical restrictions

                                        Not true every system as some form of ethics-just because they may be different from yours it does not mean there are none.

                                        Al-islaam on the other hand, bases its ethos on metaphysics. I call it the metaphysical economics because God becomes the fifth (read first) economic agent. You give to the weakest because God promises you success for all if you do.

                                        Again sounds good but what exactly does it mean?

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                                          mquran
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          May be not. I dont know arabic but all the translators (the ones I have read anyway)have mentioned the word war. Wonder why? as the word profit/utilisation would seem far more ethical than spoils of war!

                                          Well, translations aren't neutral. Your very choice of words can determine the perception of the reader. To say 'cohabit' and 'dwell together' amounts to the same thing but they evoke different reactions.

                                          Translations however, in my experience cannot stand in the face of al-quraan's own tafseer methodology. I have seen false interpretations fall flat in the face of al-quraan's own explanation. When you say 'far more ethical', you're making a value judgement and if i may say so, this would hamper your engagement with al-quraan.

                                          Working is not slavery. There may be anecdotal cases but vast majority in the capitalist societies today are not slaves-need to work is not the same as being forced to work. I was not aware that capitalism advocates slavery or perhaps you are refering to a different system?

                                          They don't advocate slavery, they have no program to abolish slavery.

                                          A slave is one who is under another and channels his energies into serving his master/rabb. We are ideally meant to be slaves of Allah alone.

                                          Not true every system as some form of ethics-just because they may be different from yours it does not mean there are none

                                          Would you mind showing where any capitalist thinker proposed this please?

                                          Again sounds good but what exactly does it mean?

                                          It means, if you live in al-madeenah, you give 1/5 of ur profits to Allah and His messenger.

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