Virgin Birth
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Peace,
Ahmed your logic is not exhaustive; and I hate to say it but your daughter is probably a bit smarter than you and you failed to understand what she was saying.
It may be true based on these statements that there is a difference in the parents that each was dutiful to. We'll accept that.
But the statements merely show that if Jesus had no father to be dutiful to - it was not due to biological absence.
He may have been absent during his life - perhaps he died or divorced - we do not know. So your argument does not prove that there was not a biological father; only that there was probably no father during his lifetime.
After all isn't that the story with Muhammad also? Traditionalists believe his father died before he was born - so he likewise could only be described as being dutiful to his mother - does that mean he had no father? No it doesn't.
Regards.
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The birth of Prophet Isa is not the mandatory part of our faith. We only have to believe that Prophet Isa was Messanger of God.
I agree with KGB here. I don't think virgin birth is so important to argue about.
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Peace,
Ahmed your logic is not exhaustive; and I hate to say it but your daughter is probably a bit smarter than you and you failed to understand what she was saying.
Peace
Ok, firstly I will be proud if my daughter is smarter than me, but I'm open to hear why is that according to the Quran?
It may be true based on these statements that there is a difference in the parents that each was dutiful to. We'll accept that.
It maybe?
well, nice try
The Quran not saying it maybe, The Quran said it is the case because according to 1917 it was an angel in the shape of a man who made Mariam pregnant
But the statements merely show that if Jesus had no father to be dutiful to - it was not due to biological absence.
oh yeh and you are totally turning a blind eye on 1917-35?
how about you walk a brother like me through it and explain every verse to me
He may have been absent during his life - perhaps he died or divorced - we do not know. So your argument does not prove that there was not a biological father; only that there was probably no father during his lifetime.
here we go
may be
or perhaps
then we don't know?
who is we?
please Oben can you exculde me from the we, because I know for certain that he never had a biological father as per 1917-35
After all isn't that the story with Muhammad also? Traditionalists believe his father died before he was born - so he likewise could only be described as being dutiful to his mother - does that mean he had no father? No it doesn't.
I'm sorry the Quran never talked about Mohammad being dutiful to his parents, so what is the point here?
also I don't talk hadith, I only talk the Arabic Quran
but I'm sure that you know how hard the Quran stressed to be dutiful to the parents, would you like to see how hard the message of being dutiful to the parents are expressed?
so you are telling me that despite this is the general message of the Quran, Jesus the prophet was exclusivly marked as he was not dutiful to one of the parent because the that parent may be or perhaps absent of his life? Nice try bro, if you read the Quran again you will see that when Jesus said that he was newly born, i.e. he never knew his father nor his mother yet, but opps he talked when he was just born and said that he is dutiful to HIS MOTHER
so where is his father AT THAT TIME Oben?
well I'd say you should stick with the other third option you stated that YOU don't know, on the other hand there are others on earth who know and I'm one fo them
Regards.
Peace
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I don't think virgin birth is so important to argue about.
Ok so please allow those of us who wish to believe so to do so, the proponents of the other view have always been around and I know there is nothing I or people like me can do about their disbelief. As for the rest of us, the miracle has a scientific explanation in the phenomena of mosaicism and monogenesis. So why is there peer pressure on those of us who accept the virgin birth to conform with what certainly seems to be turning out to be the view adopted by the site? Surely "free-minds" indicates live & let live?
Since those people who detest the idea of virgin birth have made their views known perhaps they could leave this topic alone now in the spirit of live and let live and allow freedom of conscience to those of us who believe so that we may talk about the phenomeno of monogenesis and mosaicism and discuss the implications it has.
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Hi Sufi,
Can u please provide a link to that particular article from oxford journal of human molecular genetics, where from u got the information u have stated so far?
Peace!
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Hello Oben
Mate you are now suggesting that possibly or may be or perhaps that Jesus was not dutiful to his father because possibly
- His father was not there (evaporated)
- His father was a bad father
If his father was not there, let?s assume he was doing some business some where on earth, why on earth Jesus should not be dutiful to him, especially Jesus was only a BABY when he said his statement regarding being dutiful to HIS MOTHER?
Let?s now assume that his father was dead before he was born and after he married Mariam, so his death was not far behind when the Jews came accusing her of prostitution because she had a baby, do you think they forgot that she was married in a period under 9 months?, or do you think when Jesus spoke to defend his mother, he deliberately kept the identity of his father a mystery? but why he does that if the whole point was refuting that his mother is a prostitute?
If we try possibility 2, we read in the Quran that we have been enjoined by Allah to be good to the PARENTS
?And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit.?
(15)
-> We can see clearly in 4615 that even though the mother was explicitly mentioned for the hardship that she goes through during pregnancy and weaning, the message to be good was for BOTH PARENTS And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months;?
14- ?And We have enjoined man in respect of his parents?his mother bears him with faintings upon faintings and his weaning takes two years-- saying Be grateful to Me and to both your parents; to Me is the eventual coming.?
15- ?And if they contend with you that you should associate with Me what you have no knowledge of, do not obey them, and keep company with them in this world kindly, and follow the way of him who turns to Me, then to Me is your return, then will I inform you of what you did--?
(14)
(15)-> We can read the same message in 3114, the mother hardship was explicitly mentioned but the message to care was for BOTH PARENTS ?And We have enjoined man in respect of his parents?his mother bears him with faintings upon faintings and his weaning takes two years?, yet the verse ended by stating that being grateful to Allah is associated by being grateful to BOTH PARENTS ?Be grateful to Me and to both your parents?
-> Yet 3115 is telling us when only we should not obey them ? And if they contend with you that you should associate with Me what you have no knowledge of, do not obey them? but the general rule to be good and kind to the parents ?Barran? ?Dutiful? must stay ?and keep company with them in this world kindly
(
-> And finally in 298 we read the same message to be dutiful to the parents and we should not obey them only if they counted that there is another God beside Allah ?And We have enjoined on man goodness to his parents, and if they contend with you that you should associate (others) with Me, of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them, ?
Obviously Jesus had no reason to not to obey his father because he was newly born when he said ?And dutiful to MY MOTHER? , ie. his alleged unknown father didn?t have a chance to count with Jesus that there is another god beside Allah or what do you think
Now bro can you try another reason on why Jesus could not be dutiful to his unknown and alleged father
Peace be with you
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Peace Ahmed,
Let?s now assume that his father was dead before he was born and after he married Mariam, so his death was not far behind when the Jews came accusing her of prostitution because she had a baby, do you think they forgot that she was married in a period under 9 months?, or do you think when Jesus spoke to defend his mother, he deliberately kept the identity of his father a mystery? but why he does that if the whole point was refuting that his mother is a prostitute?
Can you be dutiful to a father who is dead? I think that is self explanatory.
Coming back to your desire to know and explain everything about Mary here's something for you to consider...
- Commemorate Mary in the Book. When she withdrew from her family to a place in the East
- And took cover from them, We sent a spirit of Ours to her who appeared before her in the concrete form of a man.
....
- When she conceived him she went away to a distant place.
In 1916-17 Mary separates herself from her family in some way before the news is given to her. The nature of the separation is not clear here.
In 1922, after the news is given she goes away to a distant place.
By herself? A young lady... travelling to a distant place by herself. For 9 months at the minimum while the baby gestates! Then again by herself giving birth to a baby...
Does that sound normal to you? That a young lady goes away by herself for 9 months. Would you let your young daughter away by herself for 9 or more months?
So how do you explain this unwritten portion of the story? Does it not make sense that there was someone accompanying and helping Mary? A father of Jesus even?
I hope you can see that just because it is not mentioned explicitly it does not mean that there was no father. Moses' father is never mentioned either but it's a surety that he had one.
Regards.
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Peace Ahmed, Sufi,
In honor of Sufi's request, since this is his/her thread, this will be my last response.
Sufi, I'm not sure why you felt a pressure to conform. The spirit of debate is to express one's view, and reply to the other's view. Nothing more, nothing less. Im sorry if you've felt pressured by this.
Ahmed, you stated
What coclusion you mean is false?, that Jesus was born without a father?
Your conclusion is false. 1 parent and 0 parents are not the same, do you agree?
but why Isa alone was chosen out of billions of peoples to suggest that he was like Adam
Because Jesus alone was/is being worshipped as God.
He has no father according to the evidences, Adam also has no father neither mother, both were born minaciously and there is no evidence to suggest that he had a father other than some mixed up Muslims who argue something that is not important as KGB stated rather they argue as if they had balls to go against the common knowledge
Please stay focused. You say it's not important but then you keep on debating. Then you say it's as if I had balls, but you have balls, but you don't see the evidence?? shock
I'm sorry, we are not discussing that he is a god, we only discussing that he had a father or not, but we can discuss this in another thread if you wish
Later in this post, you admit that you reply line by line rather than reading the entire post. I would suggest you change this behavior because you end up pulling sentences out of context and replying to them in error.
So now we have to backtrack.
The reason the whole "jesus is god" concept came up is because people believe this. Lots of them. Billions of them. You seem to look past this as the reason for his comparison to Adam. You keep asking, why is he compared to Adam. Well, I told you why, because people believe jesus is god. Adam was a man. So God is actually telling these people, look, jesus is not a god, jesus was a man, like Adam.
See??
Nice try Tay, but you can keep trying hard to find a more unrealistic logic to follow, there was many others who were considered gods, like prophet Uzair, so why then Allah didn't say the Jesus and Uzair are like Adam?
Many others?? Please elaborate, because to my knowledge, Uzair was the only one. Interestingly, I challenge you to find a single Jew on the planet who can recall this behavior. The reason Uzair is not given even a fraction of the attention Isa is given is because whoever called him God, it must have been a very small pocket of people, who surely no longer exist.
To compare the worship of Isa to the worship of Uzair is preposterous if one can look around and count.
Hence if they believe that Adam was not created without a father and a mother, why they reject that Isa was born without a father?, I thought the second is simpler on the God who did the first
That sounds like a double negative, probably negating your point. Nevertheless, who Adam was and how he was created is another story for another thread. It's clear from the Qur'an and from a logical standpoint, that Adam was not one person, but symbolic of mankind. If you want to discuss this further, I'd be happy to start a new thread for you.
also 4823 means what is in 4822 is the thing that will never change and possibly a few other verses prior to 4822, you got it totally mixed, sorry
Thanks for your opinion, but let's stick to the facts. There is no disclaimer in 4823 that says what you suggest.
please tell me why Mariam after she was informed with the good news and surely she expressed her wonder, was very upset when she delivered the baby?. She was scared to death and even hoped to be dead and forgotten?
Provide the ayah and we'll discuss it.
do you think the Quran Quoted all what Jesus said in his life?, how about Mohammad, do you think the Quran quoted everything Mohammad said or any other prophet for that matter?
You're being facetious, Ahmed. A miraculous birth is surely worthy of mention, since it's the only time it would have happened in the history of humanity!!! It doesn't mean every fact in a person's life should be mentioned.
You need to answer this then, why only Allah mentioned his mother and not both?
You need to stop answering question with questions. It's impolite.
No because He went back to the heaven
So, the angel, in the form of man, came to Mary and impregnated her, and then went back to Heaven?
What happened to the angel's body?
Peace,
Tayp.s. I'll await your response and start a new thread in reply, for Sufi's sake
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace Oben
Let?s now assume that his father was dead before he was born and after he married Mariam, so his death was not far behind when the Jews came accusing her of prostitution because she had a baby, do you think they forgot that she was married in a period under 9 months?, or do you think when Jesus spoke to defend his mother, he deliberately kept the identity of his father a mystery? but why he does that if the whole point was refuting that his mother is a prostitute?
Can you be dutiful to a father who is dead? I think that is self explanatory.
well how a newly born baby knew that his father is dead?
also how the jews did not know that that father is dead?
Coming back to your desire to know and explain everything about Mary here's something for you to consider...
Bro, please give me a break, did I say I'm explaining EVERYTHING about Mary?
I guess this is in no way an accurate allegation by you bro
Also bro, I'm explaining what the clear Arabic verse 1917-35 cleary state
- Commemorate Mary in the Book. When she withdrew from her family to a place in the East
- And took cover from them, We sent a spirit of Ours to her who appeared before her in the concrete form of a man.
....
- When she conceived him she went away to a distant place.
In 1916-17 Mary separates herself from her family in some way before the news is given to her. The nature of the separation is not clear here.
What do you mean by that? I mean the natrure of seperation, obvioulsy a miracle was about to happen and an angel in shape of a human was about to come and make her pregnant, I guess it should be private
In 1922, after the news is given she goes away to a distant place.
By herself? A young lady... travelling to a distant place by herself. For 9 months at the minimum while the baby gestates! Then again by herself giving birth to a baby...
Does that sound normal to you?
Of course it does IF I INCLUDE ALLAH IN THE PICTURE, DIDN"T ALLAH SAY THAT JESUS AND HIS MOTHER WILL BE SIGNS FOR HUMANITY?
That a young lady goes away by herself for 9 months. Would you let your young daughter away by herself for 9 or more months?
Oh man, that is a silly argumnet bro, but if Allah wants this to happen to my daughter "that she goes away while pregnaant for 9 months" can I stop it even if I'm not happy with it? of course not, you see you are totally ignoring that JESUS AND HIS MOTHER WERE SIGNS TO HUMANITY, AS WELL YOU ARE TAKING ALLAH OUT OF THE PICTURE DESPITE HE IS THE ONE TELLING US THE STORY, this is very confusing by you bro
So how do you explain this unwritten portion of the story? Does it not make sense that there was someone accompanying and helping Mary? A father of Jesus even?
why I have to explain it first?, is it that important?, well it was explained any way in the Quran to the level that we need to know, but you may ask Allah that question in the Judgment day Oben, as here where I will abide by 1736 and I will not speculate nor argue what mary did in her pregnancy period because the Quran didn't mention it hence I have no knowledge about this period in Mary's life, and 1736 says "Do NOT ARGUE if you lack knowledge"
I hope you can see that just because it is not mentioned explicitly it does not mean that there was no father. Moses' father is never mentioned either but it's a surety that he had one.
Regards.I don't care that it was not mentioned explicitly what i care about that 1917-35 clearly says that Allah sent Rohehi in the shape of a human to make Mary preganat
Also the Jews accused her of prostitution when they saw that she was carrying a baby then the baby defended her and he never mentioed his father. neither Mary said she was married to anyone who is dead.
Far out bro, you can believe what you want, but I tell you man you will be held accountable to what you try to indirectly mislead others regarding Jesus alleged and known father, 1736
if you don't know it is better for you that you say i don't know because Allah will hold you accountable according to 1736 ie. you argue while lacking knowledge, you are a perfect example to 1736 bro, I hope Allah helps you to come out of this fitnah
Peace be with you
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace tay
Ahmed, you stated
What coclusion you mean is false?, that Jesus was born without a father?
Your conclusion is false. 1 parent and 0 parents are not the same, do you agree?
well, did I say THE SAME EXACTLY, I'm sorry if I did, now the verse clearly say THE LIKENESS OF JESUS IS LIKE ADAM, AND Like does not really mean a perfect match
do you agree?
but why Isa alone was chosen out of billions of peoples to suggest that he was like Adam
Because Jesus alone was/is being worshipped as God.
Wrong, Uzair was worshipped as god, and Pharaoh was worshipped as god and i;m sure there are many others
He has no father according to the evidences, Adam also has no father neither mother, both were born minaciously and there is no evidence to suggest that he had a father other than some mixed up Muslims who argue something that is not important as KGB stated rather they argue as if they had balls to go against the common knowledge
Please stay focused. You say it's not important but then you keep on debating. Then you say it's as if I had balls, but you have balls, but you don't see the evidence?? shock
Yep because it shows contradiction in the Quran and I will continue debating it if any one continue to argue it, that is what I focus about on the virtual world, I will refute any allegati0on that cause a contradiction in the Quran if I have knowlede about it, it is a duty bro
I'm sorry, we are not discussing that he is a god, we only discussing that he had a father or not, but we can discuss this in another thread if you wish
Later in this post, you admit that you reply line by line rather than reading the entire post. I would suggest you change this behavior because you end up pulling sentences out of context and replying to them in error.
I will try, but instead of alleging that I take something it out of context, you better say what that something is please
So now we have to backtrack.
The reason the whole "jesus is god" concept came up is because people believe this. Lots of them. Billions of them. You seem to look past this as the reason for his comparison to Adam. You keep asking, why is he compared to Adam. Well, I told you why, because people believe jesus is god. Adam was a man. So God is actually telling these people, look, jesus is not a god, jesus was a man, like Adam.
See??
well Pharaoh was also worshipped as a God, Uzair as well was worshipped as a God, Oziris "Idris" was worshipped as a God, why only jesus then?
Nice try Tay, but you can keep trying hard to find a more unrealistic logic to follow, there was many others who were considered gods, like prophet Uzair, so why then Allah didn't say the Jesus and Uzair are like Adam?
Many others?? Please elaborate, because to my knowledge, Uzair was the only one. Interestingly, I challenge you to find a single Jew on the planet who can recall this behavior. The reason Uzair is not given even a fraction of the attention Isa is given is because whoever called him God, it must have been a very small pocket of people, who surely no longer exist.
I don't care to find any jew, it is enough for me that the Quran said it, now another example is Pharaoh that was worshipped as a God.
To compare the worship of Isa to the worship of Uzair is preposterous if one can look around and count.
Haha, nice try Tay, as if the number of each is a valid argument, can you please tell me the number of each or a close figure at the time when this message was revealed?
Hence if they believe that Adam was not created without a father and a mother, why they reject that Isa was born without a father?, I thought the second is simpler on the God who did the first
That sounds like a double negative, probably negating your point. Nevertheless, who Adam was and how he was created is another story for another thread. It's clear from the Qur'an and from a logical standpoint, that Adam was not one person, but symbolic of mankind. If you want to discuss this further, I'd be happy to start a new thread for you.
lol , thanks mate for the laugh, so Adam never existed. yep you are welcome to open a new thread to discuss Adam with me
also 4823 means what is in 4822 is the thing that will never change and possibly a few other verses prior to 4822, you got it totally mixed, sorry
Thanks for your opinion, but let's stick to the facts. There is no disclaimer in 4823 that says what you suggest.
lol , then there is nothing suggest that Jesus had a father as well
please tell me why Mariam after she was informed with the good news and surely she expressed her wonder, was very upset when she delivered the baby?. She was scared to death and even hoped to be dead and forgotten?
Provide the ayah and we'll discuss it.
The verses are poisted up there, 1917-35
do you think the Quran Quoted all what Jesus said in his life?, how about Mohammad, do you think the Quran quoted everything Mohammad said or any other prophet for that matter?
You're being facetious, Ahmed. A miraculous birth is surely worthy of mention, since it's the only time it would have happened in the history of humanity!!! It doesn't mean every fact in a person's life should be mentioned.
It was mentioned in 19-17-35, but Tay, can you please tell me how a baby can talk after just being born?
You need to answer this then, why only Allah mentioned his mother and not both?
You need to stop answering question with questions. It's impolite.
you see I'm happy that I get a question as an answer to a question I raise, but I will not be happy when I have no answer to that question given as a reply, my question stand mate, do you have an answer? lol
No because He went back to the heaven
So, the angel, in the form of man, came to Mary and impregnated her, and then went back to Heaven?
Yep according to 1917-35,
What happened to the angel's body?
Peace,
Tay
well I guess he went back to the heaven but possibly Allah sent him somwher else I don't know and according to 1736 "Don not argue if you lack knowledge"
p.s. I'll await your response and start a new thread in reply, for Sufi's sake
go for it peace be with you
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Qur'an never mentioned the name of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) mother or his father. Musa and Haroun refer to each other with Son of their mother. There is no importance what was the name of Prophet Musa and Haroun father to our faith and that does not mean that those Prophets were born without father. Qur'an did not record Prophet Muhammad (SAW) all marriages. No importance to our faith.
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Salaams All,
Why don?t we look at what Allah is pointing to?
362
Verily this is STORY true and no God but Allah and indeed???344-64.
I see Allah pointing at a story, look at the previous ayah?s it?s the story of Jesus being narrated to people of the book.
Allah has said Jesus was born for the guidance of people like Adam was ? and then Allah challenges the people of the book if you don?t accept this narration then face the consequences (360-64).The word TIRB which here people are focussed to is used two ways to my knowledge as dust and as a companion/Match/suiting the age??..
See the Quranic Dictionary (page 74) and or the following Ayah?s
3852, 5637 and 7833.
WaAAindahum qasiratu alttarfiatrabun
And beside them will be chaste women restraining their glances, (companions) of equal age.
AAuruban atraban
Beloved (by nature), equal in age,-
ERROR
And voluptuous women of equal age;
So 359 could possibly be saying
Indeed similitude (of) Jesus to Allah (is) like similitude (of) Adam He created from companion then said to him be and he was.But do draw your own conclusions
Salaams.
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Hello mz357
I'm sorry mate, the word "Turab" it totally different to the word "Atraba" they just look similar but the word "Atraba" has an "Alif" in front and "Turab" does not
there is no link whatsoever between the two, even if they have the same root
Cheers
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Salaams Br.
soryy Br.
The authors of QD say otherwise and i am keen follower of somethings in dictionaries and this is one where i accept there wordings.
God Bless.
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Peace
well how a newly born baby knew that his father is dead?
Newly born?
I do not be believe the ayat says newborn.
Why the Jews accused Mariam with prostitution when she had the baby?
Mary was not accussed of prostitution as far as I am aware. I feel people sometimes stretch things a little too far.
Joe
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Peace
Peace
well how a newly born baby knew that his father is dead?
Newly born?
well the context says that exactly, read 1917-35 and you will rread that she pointed to him when the jews asked her wher she got that from, then they wondered when she pointed to the baby that how come then will talk to a baby
I do not be believe the ayat says newborn.
at least say what do you believe then, he was
an adult?
a teen?
Why the Jews accused Mariam with prostitution when she had the baby?
Mary was not accussed of prostitution as far as I am aware. I feel people sometimes stretch things a little too far.
Joe
well joe, I thought you know what the arabic word "Baghaa" means, if you do not, then it means prostitution
ahmed
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Salaams Br.
soryy Br.
The authors of QD say otherwise and i am keen follower of somethings in dictionaries and this is one where i accept there wordings.
God Bless.
Hello
what is QD please?
thanks
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Salaams Ahmed,
QD = Quranic Dictionary.
I think its by Manaan or someone ,i don't have it on me right now.
But Br. Waqas recommended it originally and i find its very interesting and helpful .
God Bless.
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Salaams Ahmed,
QD = Quranic Dictionary.
I think its by Manaan or someone ,i don't have it on me right now.
But Br. Waqas recommended it originally and i find its very interesting and helpful .
God Bless.
Thanks bro, i was just curious that's all, I actually don't need one because I'm a native arabic speaker
peace
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Peace Ahmed
Please read the context of the story and show me why Mary's people would accuse her of being a prostitute/baghiyy. The word baghiyy itself does not necessarily imply prostitution. I do not think Mary's people believe she is a prostitute. They believe she has done something outrageous or beyond bounds. You assume it is prostitution, I do not. She is just coming back to her people after some time of being aloof of them and all they can say when they see her with child is that she is a prostitute?
at least say what do you believe then, he was
The term used for Jesus is almahdi sabiyy which means lad or a young male in his springtime. It does not necessarily mean baby. A young boy should be able to speak to adults.
Joe