Virgin Birth
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Salaams All,
Why don?t we look at what Allah is pointing to?
362
Verily this is STORY true and no God but Allah and indeed???344-64.
I see Allah pointing at a story, look at the previous ayah?s it?s the story of Jesus being narrated to people of the book.
Allah has said Jesus was born for the guidance of people like Adam was ? and then Allah challenges the people of the book if you don?t accept this narration then face the consequences (360-64).The word TIRB which here people are focussed to is used two ways to my knowledge as dust and as a companion/Match/suiting the age??..
See the Quranic Dictionary (page 74) and or the following Ayah?s
3852, 5637 and 7833.
WaAAindahum qasiratu alttarfiatrabun
And beside them will be chaste women restraining their glances, (companions) of equal age.
AAuruban atraban
Beloved (by nature), equal in age,-
ERROR
And voluptuous women of equal age;
So 359 could possibly be saying
Indeed similitude (of) Jesus to Allah (is) like similitude (of) Adam He created from companion then said to him be and he was.But do draw your own conclusions
Salaams.
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Hello mz357
I'm sorry mate, the word "Turab" it totally different to the word "Atraba" they just look similar but the word "Atraba" has an "Alif" in front and "Turab" does not
there is no link whatsoever between the two, even if they have the same root
Cheers
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Salaams Br.
soryy Br.
The authors of QD say otherwise and i am keen follower of somethings in dictionaries and this is one where i accept there wordings.
God Bless.
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Peace
well how a newly born baby knew that his father is dead?
Newly born?
I do not be believe the ayat says newborn.
Why the Jews accused Mariam with prostitution when she had the baby?
Mary was not accussed of prostitution as far as I am aware. I feel people sometimes stretch things a little too far.
Joe
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Peace
Peace
well how a newly born baby knew that his father is dead?
Newly born?
well the context says that exactly, read 1917-35 and you will rread that she pointed to him when the jews asked her wher she got that from, then they wondered when she pointed to the baby that how come then will talk to a baby
I do not be believe the ayat says newborn.
at least say what do you believe then, he was
an adult?
a teen?
Why the Jews accused Mariam with prostitution when she had the baby?
Mary was not accussed of prostitution as far as I am aware. I feel people sometimes stretch things a little too far.
Joe
well joe, I thought you know what the arabic word "Baghaa" means, if you do not, then it means prostitution
ahmed
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Salaams Br.
soryy Br.
The authors of QD say otherwise and i am keen follower of somethings in dictionaries and this is one where i accept there wordings.
God Bless.
Hello
what is QD please?
thanks
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Salaams Ahmed,
QD = Quranic Dictionary.
I think its by Manaan or someone ,i don't have it on me right now.
But Br. Waqas recommended it originally and i find its very interesting and helpful .
God Bless.
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Salaams Ahmed,
QD = Quranic Dictionary.
I think its by Manaan or someone ,i don't have it on me right now.
But Br. Waqas recommended it originally and i find its very interesting and helpful .
God Bless.
Thanks bro, i was just curious that's all, I actually don't need one because I'm a native arabic speaker
peace
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Peace Ahmed
Please read the context of the story and show me why Mary's people would accuse her of being a prostitute/baghiyy. The word baghiyy itself does not necessarily imply prostitution. I do not think Mary's people believe she is a prostitute. They believe she has done something outrageous or beyond bounds. You assume it is prostitution, I do not. She is just coming back to her people after some time of being aloof of them and all they can say when they see her with child is that she is a prostitute?
at least say what do you believe then, he was
The term used for Jesus is almahdi sabiyy which means lad or a young male in his springtime. It does not necessarily mean baby. A young boy should be able to speak to adults.
Joe
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Peace Ahmed
Please read the context of the story and show me why Mary's people would accuse her of being a prostitute/baghiyy. The word baghiyy itself does not necessarily imply prostitution. I do not think Mary's people believe she is a prostitute. They believe she has done something outrageous or beyond bounds. You assume it is prostitution, I do not. She is just coming back to her people after some time of being aloof of them and all they can say when they see her with child is that she is a prostitute?
at least say what do you believe then, he was
The term used for Jesus is almahdi sabiyy which means lad or a young male in his springtime. It does not necessarily mean baby. A young boy should be able to speak to adults.
Joe
Joe
I hope you are not one of those who object for the sake of objection, like the opposition in the government lol
Let's look again at the following 3 verses from sura 19
27- "And she came to her people with him, carrying him. They said O Marium! surely you have done a strange thing. "
28- "O sister of Haroun! your father was not a bad man, nor, was your mother an unchaste woman. "
29- "But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle? "
(27)
(2
(29)
-> Verse 27, "And she came to her people with him, carrying him . They said O Marium! surely you have done a strange thing. ", so how come she was carryig a teenager Joe?, also Joe I thought when a mother have a child other congratulate her and wish her the best, NOT to tell hell you brought in something strange, well "Faria", " " is translated wrong, it should mean "something bad or oweful or fabricated" not something strange, obviously they wondered where she got the child from because SHE WAS NOT MARRIED TO ANY MAN
-> Verse 28, then they continued accusing her because of the baby ""O sister of Haroun! your father was not a bad man, nor, was your mother an unchaste woman. ", come on Joe, it is obvious, they are telling her how come you do this and your father was not wicked neither you mother was an unchaste woman " ", well, "Baghia" means "Prostitute", so they are telling her how can you do this and your mother was not a prostitute, ie. how come you be a prostitute and your mother is not a prostitute neither your father is "wicked", is pimping can be considered a wicked act by a wicked man?, I guess so
-> They were waiting for an answer from Mary, but she did not talk to them as per the order given to her by Allah 1926 so she pointed to Jesus "But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle? ", why they wonder if he was a teenager Joe?
I think a teenager can talk, right? or do you think he was not a teenager but a newly born baby, let's say a few days to a few months old and Allah made him to speak and defend his mother? or you don't believe in that too?, I'm sure you will come back and say I didnlt mean teenager but possibly a 3 years old child who can talk for sure
but that should mean that Mary was away for 3 years and they never heard from her until she came back from wherever carrying a 3 years old child? is that what you are suggesting Joe?
ANd why they wondered Joe? possibly he was asleep and they wondered how he can talk while asleep?, obvioulsy he was not asleep because he started talking staright after their wonder and what he said can't come from a three years old child unless he was at least teenager to say the contest he said in that manner
Have a nice day Joe
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Peace,
Jesus had a father and here is the evidence for it from the Quran
006.083
YUSUFALI That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people We raise whom We will, degree after degree for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.
PICKTHAL That is Our argument. We gave it unto Abraham against his folk. We raise unto degrees of wisdom whom We will. Lo! thy Lord is Wise, Aware.
SHAKIR And this was Our argument which we gave to Ibrahim against his people; We exalt in dignity whom We please; surely your Lord is Wise, Knowing.
KHALIFA Such was our argument, with which we supported Abraham against his people. We exalt whomever we will to higher ranks. Your Lord is Most Wise, Omniscient.006.084
YUSUFALI We gave him Isaac and Jacob all (three) guided and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron thus do We reward those who do good
PICKTHAL And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good.
SHAKIR And We gave to him Ishaq and Yaqoub; each did We guide, and Nuh did We guide before, and of his descendants, Dawood and Sulaiman and Ayub and Yusuf and Haroun; and thus do We reward those who do good (to others).
KHALIFA And we granted him Isaac and Jacob, and we guided both of them. Similarly, we guided Noah before that, and from his descendants (we guided) David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. We thus reward the righteous.006.085
YUSUFALI And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias all in the ranks of the righteous
PICKTHAL And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous.
SHAKIR And Zakariya and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas; every one was of the good;
KHALIFA Also, Zachariah, John, Jesus, and Elias; all were righteous.006.086
YUSUFALI And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot and to all We gave favour above the nations
PICKTHAL And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot. Each one (of them) did We prefer above (Our) creatures,
SHAKIR And Ismail and Al-Yasha and Yunus and Lut; and every one We made to excel (in) the worlds
KHALIFA And Ismail, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each of these we distinguished over all the people.006.087
Yusuf Ali (To them) and to their fathers, and progeny and brethren; ?..
Pickthall With some of their forefathers and their offspring, and their brethren; ??
Shakir And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren;
Rodwell And some of their fathers, and of their offspring, and of their brethren ?.
Hilali & Khan And also some of their fathers and their progeny and their brethren,?
Irving We picked out some of their forefathers, their offspring and their brethren....
Arberry And of their fathers, and of their seed, and of their brethren;....In the above verse most of the translators translate (AABAA) to fathers and there you have it.
And in the Quran Allah says that his "sunnah" does not change, so the argument that Allah can brake his own laws does not hold as well.
Wassallam -
Peace,
What do you mean by that? I mean the natrure of seperation, obvioulsy a miracle was about to happen and an angel in shape of a human was about to come and make her pregnant, I guess it should be private
So an 'angel' was the father according to you?
In 1922, after the news is given she goes away to a distant place.
By herself? A young lady... travelling to a distant place by herself. For 9 months at the minimum while the baby gestates! Then again by herself giving birth to a baby...
Does that sound normal to you?
Of course it does IF I INCLUDE ALLAH IN THE PICTURE, DIDN"T ALLAH SAY THAT JESUS AND HIS MOTHER WILL BE SIGNS FOR HUMANITY?
A pregnant lady away from her family; where does she live? In the forest like an animal? How does she obtain money or food and other necessities?
I'm not saying that I want or need to know - I'm just saying that you are being very simplistic in your thinking. There was quite obviously some help required - a pregant woman surviving by herself away from all people is a very big stretch of the imagination.
That a young lady goes away by herself for 9 months. Would you let your young daughter away by herself for 9 or more months?
Oh man, that is a silly argumnet bro, but if Allah wants this to happen to my daughter "that she goes away while pregnaant for 9 months" can I stop it even if I'm not happy with it? of course not, you see you are totally ignoring that JESUS AND HIS MOTHER WERE SIGNS TO HUMANITY, AS WELL YOU ARE TAKING ALLAH OUT OF THE PICTURE DESPITE HE IS THE ONE TELLING US THE STORY, this is very confusing by you bro
And if she came back to you with a young child, would you think she had been a prostitute? How about your relatives and neighbours? The fact that she had gone away without a trace and no communication would not have bothered you?
It would be natural to feel that a girl who disappeared for a year or more and comes back with a young child has done something unrighteous. But she may have married (remember that a ceremony and 500 person banquet like modern Arab weddings is not required), lost her husband, and had a child and returned.
That's a logical explanation, and requires no stretching of the intellect.
I don't care that it was not mentioned explicitly what i care about that 1917-35 clearly says that Allah sent Rohehi in the shape of a human to make Mary preganat
So the father is "Rohehi" and they 'did something' requiring privacy according to you. Is that what you believe?
Also the Jews accused her of prostitution when they saw that she was carrying a baby then the baby defended her and he never mentioed his father. neither Mary said she was married to anyone who is dead.
1930 (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
1931 "He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) for as long as I live.
1932 "I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel.
1933 And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."Does he explain the how of his existence at all?
Peace.
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Peace,
Far out bro, you can believe what you want, but I tell you man you will be held accountable to what you try to indirectly mislead others regarding Jesus alleged and known father, 1736
1736 You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Brother Ahmed, are you using your God given intellect the way He instructs you to use?
A human being requires a mother and a father. I cannot verify the existence of "immaculate conception" which is used as religious doctrine. It is an alien belief to a reasonable person who puts 1736 into practice.
Recall brother that some can be mislead by the same things that others are guided by. This is a test to distinguish those who are reasonable with those who follow blindly and accept Pauline Christianity and its dogmas.
if you don't know it is better for you that you say i don't know because Allah will hold you accountable according to 1736 ie. you argue while lacking knowledge, you are a perfect example to 1736 bro, I hope Allah helps you to come out of this fitnah
Brother Ahmed, how does my belief on this matter contradict the oneness of the God and my belief in accountability to Him? Islam is not about dogma, but about faith that is evidence based as 1736 instructs.
I have knowledge that humans are not born without fathers. That is my knowledge. You on the other hand only have speculation and conjecture. You are accepting blindly the dogma preached for hundreds of years by the misguided Pauline doctrines and the misguided so called islamic scholars who swallowed the doctrines hook, line and sinker. And there are loopholes for the misguided to support their unreasonable beliefs - that is the truth. They mislead themselves!
The virgin birth myth supports other lies that they have fabricated. It is where the corruption begins - and corruption and falsehood must be stamped out and not allowed to propagate. That is the essence of 1736 my friend, and that is why I am on the path in this matter.
Peace.
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I don't think virgin birth is so important to argue about.
Ok so please allow those of us who wish to believe so to do so, the proponents of the other view have always been around and I know there is nothing I or people like me can do about their disbelief. As for the rest of us, the miracle has a scientific explanation in the phenomena of mosaicism and monogenesis. So why is there peer pressure on those of us who accept the virgin birth to conform with what certainly seems to be turning out to be the view adopted by the site? Surely "free-minds" indicates live & let live?
Since those people who detest the idea of virgin birth have made their views known perhaps they could leave this topic alone now in the spirit of live and let live and allow freedom of conscience to those of us who believe so that we may talk about the phenomeno of monogenesis and mosaicism and discuss the implications it has.
I'm cool with that mate! As you can see I chose not to participate in the debate, nor do I force anyone to take sides in this issue. What I and KGB think is that it's not an important thing, that's all. In fact I don't care what the FM 'official' view about this matter, because there shouldn't be any. Doing so would create a priesthood among us.
Feel free to disagree!
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Peace Ahmed
so how come she was carryig a teenager Joe?
No, I explicitly stated in my previous post that the term used for Jesus is almahdi sabiyy which means lad or a young male in his springtime. I did not mean a teenager.
then they continued accusing her because of the baby
No they were not accusing her of prostitution. You said they did not know how she had the child. So now you assume that they are building up on their guess that she's whoring about, by bringing her family into it. Lie atop lies?
well, "Baghia" means "Prostitute"
Using the language with which you were born into and spoke as a child, you will know it also means outrageous.
SHE WAS NOT MARRIED TO ANY MAN
I disagree.
why they wonder if he was a teenager Joe?
They did not feel such matters (not the one's with which you're concerned; prostitution) were in the province of a child.
I'm sure you will come back and say I didnlt mean teenager but possibly a 3 years old child who can talk for sure
Now you're thinking.
but that should mean that Mary was away for 3 years and they never heard from her until she came back from wherever carrying a 3 years old child? is that what you are suggesting Joe?
Is it so strange? So strange that you would rather believe he was born only of a mother with no father involved!
Yes, this makes sense to me, that Jesus had a father, who helped to deliver Jesus, who was with Mary that night/day when she had sex. Soon you will understand why her people were so estatic with her.
and what he said can't come from a three years old child unless he was at least teenager to say the contest he said in that manner
Still you have not learned that knowledge is not a monopoly among the grown up. Perhaps you will soon learn when some child comes along and teaches you this lesson.
Joe
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Peace Truth,
you stated
I have knowledge that humans are not born without fathers. That is my knowledge. You on the other hand only have speculation and conjecture. You are accepting blindly the dogma preached for hundreds of years by the misguided Pauline doctrines and the misguided so called islamic scholars who swallowed the doctrines hook, line and sinker. And there are loopholes for the misguided to support their unreasonable beliefs - that is the truth. They mislead themselves!
The virgin birth myth supports other lies that they have fabricated. It is where the corruption begins - and corruption and falsehood must be stamped out and not allowed to propagate. That is the essence of 1736 my friend, and that is why I am on the path in this matter.
Beautifully said, brother.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
Peace
What do you mean by that? I mean the natrure of seperation, obvioulsy a miracle was about to happen and an angel in shape of a human was about to come and make her pregnant, I guess it should be private
So an 'angel' was the father according to you?
The angel exceuted the miracle ordered by Allah, Jesus had no father, and if Allah wants Jesus to be without the Y cromozom, why do you think Allah is not capabable of doing as such?
did you know that Jesus had the Y cromozom or not?
By herself? A young lady... travelling to a distant place by herself. For 9 months at the minimum while the baby gestates! Then again by herself giving birth to a baby...
well it might been 6 months, how do you know it was 9 months, again don't argue if you lack knowledge 1736
now regarding by herself, are you blind mate?, she was not by herself Allah was with her, read the verses again and you will see that clearly lol
A pregnant lady away from her family; where does she live? In the forest like an animal? How does she obtain money or food and other necessities?
why not?, the Quran told us that Allah was with her, now which case you reckon will be better for Mariam, a woman with Allah helping and providoiing to her or a woman with a man providing to her?, well the Quran told us that Allah was providing to her
I'm not saying that I want or need to know - I'm just saying that you are being very simplistic in your thinking. There was quite obviously some help required - a pregant woman surviving by herself away from all people is a very big stretch of the imagination.
well the quran is simple anyway, but I thought the common sense in any matter is to be simple not complicated unless you prefer it complicated?
And if she came back to you with a young child, would you think she had been a prostitute?
no i will ask her whose child is this and if I know in advance that she is not married and the child is hers then I have to gues that she had it ouside the wedlock and that is what called "Baghaa"
How about your relatives and neighbours? The fact that she had gone away without a trace and no communication would not have bothered you?
well the quran never talked about this silly details, so I careless to discuss it
It would be natural to feel that a girl who disappeared for a year or more and comes back with a young child has done something unrighteous. But she may have married (remember that a ceremony and 500 person banquet like modern Arab weddings is not required), lost her husband, and had a child and returned.
sorry is that story is in the Quran?
That's a logical explanation, and requires no stretching of the intellect.
sorry you can create any stories you wish and made up the merit or the intellect you wish but the truth of the quran is totally something else, good luck with your quest
So the father is "Rohehi" and they 'did something' requiring privacy according to you. Is that what you believe?
another silly argument, Rohehi was also used with Adam, would that tell you something?, well it tells me that Allah created Jesus without a father like Adam was without a father
1930 (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
1931 "He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) for as long as I live.
1932 "I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel.
1933 And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."Does he explain the how of his existence at all?
1917 does
Peace.
peace
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Peace
well it tells me that Allah created Jesus without a father like Adam was without a father
Does it also tell you the same thing for mankind/insan .
Joe
Peace
no it does not because it was not talking about mankind, it was only talking about Jesus and his mother then it mentioned that Jesus is like Adam
it never said jesus is like mankind
and the Quran also never said mankind is like adam, or any other human for that matter is like adam other than jesus
now if our creation was started from dust that is a totally different story and that is what the verses you refered to is talking about that the START of creation of man kind was from clay
7- "Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;"
8- "Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;"
9- "Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His Spirit; and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye! "
(7)
(
(9)
In the above verses we see clearly that it has nothing to do with 1917-35, in here Allah it telling us that the BEGINING of the man creation was from clay
where is the link exactly?
peace
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Peace
no it does not because it was not talking about mankind, it was only talking about Jesus and his mother then it mentioned that Jesus is like Adam
It also does not mention Adam so why do you say so?
it never said jesus is like mankind
Adam = Mankind
and the Quran also never said mankind is like adam,
Adam = Mankind
or any other human for that matter is like adam other than jesus
There is numerous evidence to the contrary .
now if our creation was started from dust that is a totally different story and that is what the verses you refered to is talking about that the START of creation of man kind was from clay
No it relates back to men of yore to you and I here and now, just as the devotee admonished his materialistic counterpart .
where is the link exactly?
My link is from nowhere. You said it was speaking of Adam when Adam is not even mentioned. So I asked a question to which you somehow had an answer. So now I'm telling you once again that adam/mankind is the same as Jesus, the same as you and I.
I'll await your reply to post #71.
Joe