Virgin Birth
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I don't think virgin birth is so important to argue about.
Ok so please allow those of us who wish to believe so to do so, the proponents of the other view have always been around and I know there is nothing I or people like me can do about their disbelief. As for the rest of us, the miracle has a scientific explanation in the phenomena of mosaicism and monogenesis. So why is there peer pressure on those of us who accept the virgin birth to conform with what certainly seems to be turning out to be the view adopted by the site? Surely "free-minds" indicates live & let live?
Since those people who detest the idea of virgin birth have made their views known perhaps they could leave this topic alone now in the spirit of live and let live and allow freedom of conscience to those of us who believe so that we may talk about the phenomeno of monogenesis and mosaicism and discuss the implications it has.
I'm cool with that mate! As you can see I chose not to participate in the debate, nor do I force anyone to take sides in this issue. What I and KGB think is that it's not an important thing, that's all. In fact I don't care what the FM 'official' view about this matter, because there shouldn't be any. Doing so would create a priesthood among us.
Feel free to disagree!
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Peace Ahmed
so how come she was carryig a teenager Joe?
No, I explicitly stated in my previous post that the term used for Jesus is almahdi sabiyy which means lad or a young male in his springtime. I did not mean a teenager.
then they continued accusing her because of the baby
No they were not accusing her of prostitution. You said they did not know how she had the child. So now you assume that they are building up on their guess that she's whoring about, by bringing her family into it. Lie atop lies?
well, "Baghia" means "Prostitute"
Using the language with which you were born into and spoke as a child, you will know it also means outrageous.
SHE WAS NOT MARRIED TO ANY MAN
I disagree.
why they wonder if he was a teenager Joe?
They did not feel such matters (not the one's with which you're concerned; prostitution) were in the province of a child.
I'm sure you will come back and say I didnlt mean teenager but possibly a 3 years old child who can talk for sure
Now you're thinking.
but that should mean that Mary was away for 3 years and they never heard from her until she came back from wherever carrying a 3 years old child? is that what you are suggesting Joe?
Is it so strange? So strange that you would rather believe he was born only of a mother with no father involved!
Yes, this makes sense to me, that Jesus had a father, who helped to deliver Jesus, who was with Mary that night/day when she had sex. Soon you will understand why her people were so estatic with her.
and what he said can't come from a three years old child unless he was at least teenager to say the contest he said in that manner
Still you have not learned that knowledge is not a monopoly among the grown up. Perhaps you will soon learn when some child comes along and teaches you this lesson.
Joe
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Peace Truth,
you stated
I have knowledge that humans are not born without fathers. That is my knowledge. You on the other hand only have speculation and conjecture. You are accepting blindly the dogma preached for hundreds of years by the misguided Pauline doctrines and the misguided so called islamic scholars who swallowed the doctrines hook, line and sinker. And there are loopholes for the misguided to support their unreasonable beliefs - that is the truth. They mislead themselves!
The virgin birth myth supports other lies that they have fabricated. It is where the corruption begins - and corruption and falsehood must be stamped out and not allowed to propagate. That is the essence of 1736 my friend, and that is why I am on the path in this matter.
Beautifully said, brother.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
Peace
What do you mean by that? I mean the natrure of seperation, obvioulsy a miracle was about to happen and an angel in shape of a human was about to come and make her pregnant, I guess it should be private
So an 'angel' was the father according to you?
The angel exceuted the miracle ordered by Allah, Jesus had no father, and if Allah wants Jesus to be without the Y cromozom, why do you think Allah is not capabable of doing as such?
did you know that Jesus had the Y cromozom or not?
By herself? A young lady... travelling to a distant place by herself. For 9 months at the minimum while the baby gestates! Then again by herself giving birth to a baby...
well it might been 6 months, how do you know it was 9 months, again don't argue if you lack knowledge 1736
now regarding by herself, are you blind mate?, she was not by herself Allah was with her, read the verses again and you will see that clearly lol
A pregnant lady away from her family; where does she live? In the forest like an animal? How does she obtain money or food and other necessities?
why not?, the Quran told us that Allah was with her, now which case you reckon will be better for Mariam, a woman with Allah helping and providoiing to her or a woman with a man providing to her?, well the Quran told us that Allah was providing to her
I'm not saying that I want or need to know - I'm just saying that you are being very simplistic in your thinking. There was quite obviously some help required - a pregant woman surviving by herself away from all people is a very big stretch of the imagination.
well the quran is simple anyway, but I thought the common sense in any matter is to be simple not complicated unless you prefer it complicated?
And if she came back to you with a young child, would you think she had been a prostitute?
no i will ask her whose child is this and if I know in advance that she is not married and the child is hers then I have to gues that she had it ouside the wedlock and that is what called "Baghaa"
How about your relatives and neighbours? The fact that she had gone away without a trace and no communication would not have bothered you?
well the quran never talked about this silly details, so I careless to discuss it
It would be natural to feel that a girl who disappeared for a year or more and comes back with a young child has done something unrighteous. But she may have married (remember that a ceremony and 500 person banquet like modern Arab weddings is not required), lost her husband, and had a child and returned.
sorry is that story is in the Quran?
That's a logical explanation, and requires no stretching of the intellect.
sorry you can create any stories you wish and made up the merit or the intellect you wish but the truth of the quran is totally something else, good luck with your quest
So the father is "Rohehi" and they 'did something' requiring privacy according to you. Is that what you believe?
another silly argument, Rohehi was also used with Adam, would that tell you something?, well it tells me that Allah created Jesus without a father like Adam was without a father
1930 (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
1931 "He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) for as long as I live.
1932 "I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel.
1933 And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."Does he explain the how of his existence at all?
1917 does
Peace.
peace
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Peace
well it tells me that Allah created Jesus without a father like Adam was without a father
Does it also tell you the same thing for mankind/insan .
Joe
Peace
no it does not because it was not talking about mankind, it was only talking about Jesus and his mother then it mentioned that Jesus is like Adam
it never said jesus is like mankind
and the Quran also never said mankind is like adam, or any other human for that matter is like adam other than jesus
now if our creation was started from dust that is a totally different story and that is what the verses you refered to is talking about that the START of creation of man kind was from clay
7- "Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;"
8- "Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;"
9- "Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His Spirit; and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye! "
(7)
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(9)
In the above verses we see clearly that it has nothing to do with 1917-35, in here Allah it telling us that the BEGINING of the man creation was from clay
where is the link exactly?
peace
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Peace
no it does not because it was not talking about mankind, it was only talking about Jesus and his mother then it mentioned that Jesus is like Adam
It also does not mention Adam so why do you say so?
it never said jesus is like mankind
Adam = Mankind
and the Quran also never said mankind is like adam,
Adam = Mankind
or any other human for that matter is like adam other than jesus
There is numerous evidence to the contrary .
now if our creation was started from dust that is a totally different story and that is what the verses you refered to is talking about that the START of creation of man kind was from clay
No it relates back to men of yore to you and I here and now, just as the devotee admonished his materialistic counterpart .
where is the link exactly?
My link is from nowhere. You said it was speaking of Adam when Adam is not even mentioned. So I asked a question to which you somehow had an answer. So now I'm telling you once again that adam/mankind is the same as Jesus, the same as you and I.
I'll await your reply to post #71.
Joe
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Peace Ahmed,
The angel exceuted the miracle ordered by Allah, Jesus had no father, and if Allah wants Jesus to be without the Y cromozom, why do you think Allah is not capabable of doing as such?
did you know that Jesus had the Y cromozom or not?
A man is defined by the Y chromosome which defines the differentiation of testicles, testosterone and secondary sexual characteristics.
Since Jesus was not described as a daughter we must believe he like all other men had a Y chromosome.
Through this alone we must understand that Jesus had a biological father who gave him his Y chromosome.
See how even biology demands a father in this case. If you believe that Jesus was missing the Y chromosome or had some sort of miraculous Y chromosome - then you are arguing nonsense. If a miraculous event was going to happen then a baby could fall out of the sky for Mary. But we know the baby needed to grow in the usual manner in a mother's womb. And because this proves that the laws of cause and effect are still necessary - therefore a man's sperm was needed. And Jesus had a father. Simple.
You must ask yourself Ahmed... what purpose does a supposed virgin birth serve? Does it change the message Jesus taught for you?
By herself? A young lady... travelling to a distant place by herself. For 9 months at the minimum while the baby gestates! Then again by herself giving birth to a baby...
well it might been 6 months, how do you know it was 9 months, again don't argue if you lack knowledge 1736
now regarding by herself, are you blind mate?, she was not by herself Allah was with her, read the verses again and you will see that clearly lol
More supernatural things needed eh?
Is not the God with you and with all of us also? What are you trying to say by saying Allah was with her?
A pregnant lady away from her family; where does she live? In the forest like an animal? How does she obtain money or food and other necessities?
why not?, the Quran told us that Allah was with her, now which case you reckon will be better for Mariam, a woman with Allah helping and providoiing to her or a woman with a man providing to her?, well the Quran told us that Allah was providing to her
If you went out to the desert by yourself do you deny that the God is with you? But is it not true that you would die in several days if you could not fend for yourself? Or are you expecting meals and bottles of water to descend from the sky for you? Or if you went to a foreign city are you expecting wads of cash to be materialising in your pockets out of nowhere?
The God provides for us all, but we work for it and make it happen with our wills.
1337 Her Lord accepted her a gracious acceptance, and brought her up a gracious upbringing, under the guardianship of Zachariah. Whenever Zachariah entered her sanctuary he found provisions with her. He would ask, "Mary, where did you get this from?" She would say, "It is from GOD. GOD provides for whomever He chooses, without limits."
Are these provisions miraculous? Did they come from the sky?
If you came to my place and asked where the food came from, what would I say? I'd say they are the God's provisions out of His mercy, though I have worked in order to get them. The provisions are a blessing for all of us.
I'm not saying that I want or need to know - I'm just saying that you are being very simplistic in your thinking. There was quite obviously some help required - a pregant woman surviving by herself away from all people is a very big stretch of the imagination.
well the quran is simple anyway, but I thought the common sense in any matter is to be simple not complicated unless you prefer it complicated?
Jesus having a father which is unmentioned but a biological necessity is simple.
A mythical and fabricated virgin birth is complicated.
That Jesus had a father is common sense in this matter; a virgin birth is far from it.
Regards.
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Peace
Pecae
no it does not because it was not talking about mankind, it was only talking about Jesus and his mother then it mentioned that Jesus is like Adam
It also does not mention Adam so why do you say so?
will Jesus was mentioned as he was like Adam in 359 not the verses you posted, and that is what i meant
are you trying to find any mistake or what?
possibly you are trying to create one lol
it never said jesus is like mankind
Adam = Mankind
that is in your books, not in the Quran, sorry
do you have evidence from the Quran that Adam = Mankind?
also when Allah refered to mankind He refered to them as mankind not adam, where you got this from that Adam = mankind? lol
and the Quran also never said mankind is like adam,
Adam = Mankind
that is in your books, not in the Quran, sorry again
do you have evidence from the Quran that Adam = Mankind?
also when Allah refered to mankind He refered to them as mankind not adam, where you got this from that Adam = mankind? lol
or any other human for that matter is like adam other than jesus
There is numerous evidence to the contrary .
lol , nice try Joe, well I mean explicitly BY NAME as Jesus was explicitly picked.
next try please
now if our creation was started from dust that is a totally different story and that is what the verses you refered to is talking about that the START of creation of man kind was from clay
No it relates back to men of yore to you and I here and now, just as the devotee admonished his materialistic counterpart .
and what is his name?, see, it is not the Turab that I'm saying is the likeness, I mean "SOMEONE IS LIKE ADAM", NOT "SOMEONE WAS CREATED FROM TURAB"
so 1837 fails because Adam was not mentioned there
next try
where is the link exactly?
My link is from nowhere. You said it was speaking of Adam when Adam is not even mentioned. So I asked a question to which you somehow had an answer. So now I'm telling you once again that adam/mankind is the same as Jesus, the same as you and I.
I'll await your reply to post #71.
Joe
I think I replyed, if not pass a note
Ahmed
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Peace
are you trying to find any mistake or what?
No but I happened upon one. If you do not know what you are talking about then I'd suggest you reread your own posts.
that is in your books, not in the Quran, sorry
Not sure what you mean by 'your books'.
do you have evidence from the Quran that Adam = Mankind?
Yes, that is for another thread.
also when Allah refered to mankind He refered to them as mankind not adam, where you got this from that Adam = mankind?
Adam means mankind.
nice try Joe, well I mean explicitly BY NAME as Jesus was explicitly picked.
Asking for unnecessary details I see .
and what is his name?
I do not know. Jibreel did not say.
so 1837 fails because Adam was not mentioned there
No your simple reasoning does. Clearly the same process applied to adam applies to the rest of al-insana.
I think I replyed, if not pass a note
No you did not. Count back (my posts) to 4, including this post, and that 4th post is the one I'm referring to.
Joe
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace Oben
The angel exceuted the miracle ordered by Allah, Jesus had no father, and if Allah wants Jesus to be without the Y cromozom, why do you think Allah is not capabable of doing as such?
did you know that Jesus had the Y cromozom or not?
A man is defined by the Y chromosome which defines the differentiation of testicles, testosterone and secondary sexual characteristics.
that is how humans define a man, in Allah Books, anything can define a man, I mean He can create a man with any cromosoms
He is Allah, don't you think Allah can do that or not?
Since Jesus was not described as a daughter we must believe he like all other men had a Y chromosome.
but his birth was a miracle anyway like Adam, and sinsce Adam could have obtained the X and Y from Allah, I bet it was also Allah who gave Jesus the Y cormosom if he ever had it
Through this alone we must understand that Jesus had a biological father who gave him his Y chromosome.
that is with any other man other than Adam and Jesus, because both of them didnlt have the father to supply the Y cromosom
but if science can's solve this puzzle, they better believe in Allah and the puzzle is solved easy, simply Allah can do anything we can imagine or we can not imagine
See how even biology demands a father in this case.
and who created the laws of biology from the first place, is it God or nature?
If you believe that Jesus was missing the Y chromosome or had some sort of miraculous Y chromosome - then you are arguing nonsense.
I didn't say that he didn't have all I said it is a possiblty because Allah can create a human without the Y , as he created one without the X and Y
also If you believe that God is not capabale of doing as such then you are arguing nonsense and you are violating 1736 as well
If a miraculous event was going to happen then a baby could fall out of the sky for Mary. But we know the baby needed to grow in the usual manner in a mother's womb. And because this proves that the laws of cause and effect are still necessary - therefore a man's sperm was needed. And Jesus had a father. Simple.
The baby didn't fall from the sky, an angel came from the sky to excute Allah kalimah
You must ask yourself Ahmed... what purpose does a supposed virgin birth serve? Does it change the message Jesus taught for you?
That Allah can do anything and He is testing us to see if we can believe that he can create a human without a father as he did with creating a human without a father and a mother, onbvio0usly someone like has failed that specific test
By herself? A young lady... travelling to a distant place by herself. For 9 months at the minimum while the baby gestates! Then again by herself giving birth to a baby...
More supernatural things needed eh?
do you believe that Allah was with her or not?
or should I ask do you beliive in Allah as a real God or as a symbolic god?
Is not the God with you and with all of us also? What are you trying to say by saying Allah was with her?
That is ehat The quran said not me, the Quran said that Allah was providing to Mary
If you went out to the desert by yourself do you deny that the God is with you? But is it not true that you would die in several days if you could not fend for yourself? Or are you expecting meals and bottles of water to descend from the sky for you? Or if you went to a foreign city are you expecting wads of cash to be materialising in your pockets out of nowhere?
Yep Allah has provided food to mary, if you read the verses again you will find it
The God provides for us all, but we work for it and make it happen with our wills.
did I say he didnlt, but Mary was explicitly mentioned that Allah is providing to her during that hard period, read the Quran mate
1337 Her Lord accepted her a gracious acceptance, and brought her up a gracious upbringing, under the guardianship of Zachariah. Whenever Zachariah entered her sanctuary he found provisions with her. He would ask, "Mary, where did you get this from?" She would say, "It is from GOD. GOD provides for whomever He chooses, without limits."
Are these provisions miraculous? Did they come from the sky?
I didn't say the food was dropped from the sky, read the Quran mate
If you came to my place and asked where the food came from, what would I say? I'd say they are the God's provisions out of His mercy, though I have worked in order to get them. The provisions are a blessing for all of us.
that is a totally differnt case, me and you are not Mary and Jesus spoken about in the Quran
Jesus having a father which is unmentioned but a biological necessity is simple.
and who created that biological necessity?
if your answer is Allah, then He can break that law at any time He wants, it is that simple
A mythical and fabricated virgin birth is complicated.
fabricated?
so you mean the Quran is fabricated?
That Jesus had a father is common sense in this matter; a virgin birth is far from it.
for someone like you who is taking Allah out of the picture yep it is going to be impossible to believe in that Quran story, but if you include the mighty Allah in the picrure, anythjing can happen, He is Allah bro
Regards.
Peace
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Sorry Joe I can't find it and I don't have time to look for it or count the posts, so here is the deal you keep refuting my Quran evidences and I will do the same to yours regarding this matter and we leave it to the crowd to make up their mind
peace
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Peace
you keep refuting my Quran evidences
I'm not trying to refute your evidence from the reading.
Joe
Joe, I'm not saying you refute the Quran, I meant you prove that my understanding to the verses is flawed
Peace be with you
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Peace
I meant you prove that my understanding to the verses is flawed
I can't prove anything to you. I can only show you the things I have come to realize.
Joe
and this is what i meant bro, sorry if it sounded a bit rude, I meant you show your things, I show mine and we leave it to the ones that yet to make up their mind
peace be with you
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Peace,
I think everyone has posted adequately on the matter.
People must use their intellect here. Women don't just give birth to babies out of nowhere. The fact that Mary had to bear Jesus with a pregnancy means that the laws of cause and effect are being obeyed.
The same people who peddle the virgin birth myth also believe that Muhammad split the moon and half of it landed in his back yard based on a Quranic verse.
These type of anti-intellectual myths go against 1736. We all know how children are born. There is no benefit to anyone to believe that Jesus was an exception to the rule, except those who wish to elevate and glorify a man.
The God is a fair and just god. His mercy means that the rules of nature do not change at a whim. A child is born with a mother and a father. Jesus had a father.
Regards.
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salaam
People must use their intellect here. Women don't just give birth to babies out of nowhere. The fact that Mary had to bear Jesus with a pregnancy means that the laws of cause and effect are being obeyed.
The same people who peddle the virgin birth myth also believe that Muhammad split the moon and half of it landed in his back yard based on a Quranic verse.
These type of anti-intellectual myths go against 1736. We all know how children are born. There is no benefit to anyone to believe that Jesus was an exception to the rule, except those who wish to elevate and glorify a man.
Well summarised.
regards -
The Quran continues to refute the silly and false allegation that Jesus had a father
Hello All
As we have seen from the evidences provided by the Arabic Quran so far, it is very obvious to a true believer that Allah created Isa without a father as He created Adam without a father.
If a God can create the mighty heaven an earth, how come He can?t create a human without a father?, well, He did it before the harder way, He created Adam without both parent, so why on earth He can?t do the easier task?
Bearing in mind, He already told us that Isa and his mother WERE MADE SIGNS TO HUMANITY.
Well, I understand that Isa being a sign maybe due to the miracles he will do with Allah permission, however what is the sign(s) in Mary then?
Very simple to an average human if the story is studied ?even dodgy? from the Quran that the sign of Mary is falling pregnant without touching a man or did she do or have any other sign that I?m not aware of ?
The most logical and strongest of all refutes in the Quran to this silly allegation by the ones that lack the knowledge in the Arabic Quran and history in general is simply the Quran never referred to Jesus that he had a father.
I do understand that this can not be a conclusive evidence that he didn?t had a father but the Quran kept referreing to Jesus differntly regarding his family tree even when the same words was used to others whom were refered to as having both parents.
We have seen how prophet Yehya was dutiful to his parents but when we read the same about Jesus we see that he was dutiful to HIS MOTHER and his father was never mentioned, further to this compelling evidence, I propose the following
The Quran tells us the following about prophet Solomon
?So he smiled, wondering at her word, and said My Lord! grant me that I should be grateful for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I should do good such as Thou art pleased with, and make me enter, by Thy mercy, into Thy servants, the good ones.?
(19)
-> We can clearly read that Solomon said to Allah ? My Lord! grant me that I should be grateful for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents,? , can you see that Solomon asked Allah to grant him that Solomon should be grateful for Allah favours that Allah bestowed on him and HIS PARENTS. And looks in Arabic like this ? ?
Allah then told us that we should say the same as Solomon said in regards to being grateful and He used the SAME EXACT WORDSthat Solomon used ? ?, ie, bestowed on him and on his parents
?And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit.?
(15)
-> CAN YOU SEE IT ABOVE BROTHERS AND SISTERS?,
Let's look at both identical parts from both verses in Arabic under each other again
? ?, by Solomon in 2719
? ?, by everyone in 4615
-> From the above two verses we really need to pay more attention to thiese words only ? ?
HOWEVER, when it came to Isa, IT WAS SAID TO HIM BY ALLAH DIFFERENTLY
?When Allah will say O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said This is nothing but clear enchantment.?
(110)
-> CAN YOU SEE IT EVERYONE? THE SAME WARDS WAS SAID DIFFERENTLY TO JESUS, it was said to him like this ? O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother?, can you spot the difference brothers and sisters?
Again this is a very strong Quran evidence that will put the opposers to shame for their clear cut ignorance regarding the clear Arabic Quran let?s now put all three parts that interest us from those three verses under each other
The favours of Allah were logically given to the followings
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To Solomon and his Parents 2719 ? ?
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To Isa and HIS MOTHER 5110 ? ?
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To All of us (except Isa & Solomon because they were mentioned explicitly using the same words) and our parents 4615 ? ?
Why Allah specifically use the same words with Jesus but only mention HIS MOTHER?
It seems there is a perfect answer to that simple Question
JESUS HAS NO FATHER AS THE QURAN CONSISTANTLY INDICATES
My case has to rest again
Peace to all
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