33:59 Women and dress recommendation. A re-examination.
-
As Salaam Alaikm Truth,
Peace NP,
And again, I don't feel that the two verses (58 & 59) relate, even without the divisions of the chapters. 58 is a very general statement, and it does not indicate that at the time Muslims were actually under persecution.
It's not enough of an argument to say you simply "feel" that they do not relate. The truth is that you cannot accept that they relate because it proves what is being presented.
No it does not. Like I said, I believe that ayat 58 is in general, and has no particular relation to ayat 59.
But since you want to doubt what I am saying, perhaps some evidence may help?
If you examine 3358 then you'll find that what's happening to the believers is that they are "yuthoona" - being harmed/annoyed. And if you look at 3359 the same word is being used "yuthayna" - harmed/annoyed so there is no justification to deny the clear link here.
Look at the verse itself!
"And those who annoy believing men and womrn underseverdly, bear a calumny and a glaring sin"
It DOES NOT say that believers are being annoyed, harmed, etc. What it is a warning against those who choose to harm or annoy them!
Ex.
"Whoever hurts my daughter, they will be beaten down".That does not mean that "my daughter" is being hurt.. it is just a WARNING for those who ever choose to hurt her.
What you have decided to do is accept the translators bias because it suits you.
LOL bias? Are you not the one who has admitted to only wanting to "challenge" the norm?? Yes. Aren't you the one who has chosen to go into ROOT words, and replace the arabic "lower" with the arabic"near"... becuase obviously LOWER didn't suit you, eventhough that is what Allah put? Yes.
I have presented a logical and coherent argument which shows the situation for what it is.
No what you did is replace an arabic word used in the Quran, with another arabic word that was the root to suit you. Then you said that ayat 58 showed how believers were being persecuted, when it didn't! It was a GENERAL statement, a WARNING against those who would ever choose to. Ayat 58 didn't tell a story, WARNED.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma'aruf
Ma'ruf Arabic
is an Arabic Islamic term meaning that which is commonly
- known
- understood
- recognized
- acknowledged
- accepted
The word is most often found in the Qur'anic exhortation "Amr bil Ma'ruf wa Nahy an al Munkar | ." This is often translated as "Command the good and forbid the evil," but this translation fails to reflect the subtleties of the Arabic. Amr refers to the enforcement function of the duly constituted government of an ummah (community.) In this context, Ma'ruf, when applied to a particular law, means a law which is -
- known to the community (i.e. the community is aware of its existence)
- intelligible (understood by & makes sense) to the community
- generally recognized and commonly acknowledged as a good law
- accepted by the community as applicable to itself - the meaning of acceptance is strongly implied by the contrast with the word Munkar, which means "rejected."
There is a hadith in which Muhammad is quoted as saying, "My ummah will never agree upon an error." This has been interpreted to mean that the consensus of the community is a source of moral and legal authority, but has also been interpreted as an Islamic counterpart to papal infallibility.
Thus, a better translation of "Amr bil Ma'ruf wa Nahy an al Munkar" would be "Enforce that which is accepted , and prohibit that which is rejected."
Oh wow... so now you are using HADITHS to back up what you are saying?
And look "KNOWN TO THE COMMUNITY" does not mean "accepted and loved by".
You will notice that the concept of "yuAArafna" or "known" in this sense is not simply 'knowledge' but involves community and acceptance.
You are the only one believes that "looking different" means that you wont be "accepted".
I hope this makes it easier t acknowledge that the translation I am providing fits in with this concept seamlessly.
Like I told you, I don't believe that your interpertaiton of the ayat is correct. If I felt that it was true, then I would accept it... why would I run from the truth if I knew it was true?
The Quran is clear and detailed, for you to go into root words totally ruins that concept. Not only that, but Allah does NOT need you to replace the word that he used with another word!
"Lower" does not mean in anyway "nearer", though "near" may be the root word. And that is all that your logic is... "oh since this is the root word, I'm going to use this instead and explain why it's acceptable". No!
Ex.
The word suicide's root word is "cide" which means to kill. I couldn't replace "suicide" with "cide" and get the same meaning accross, unless I change the whole sentence."I am going to commit suicide"
does not mean
"I am going to commit cide".
You're going to commit to kill? Ok.... but who? (obviously the first setence told us WHO---Ones ownself!)
In order for me to get the point across that I am going to commit sucide (kill myself), with the word cide, I'd have to say
"I am going to cide myself".
When you put "near" it makes no since, and doesn't even get the point across.
Why does it annoy you that I show you from the reading itself that your clothes and garments do not make you a muslim. The God makes it abundantly clear that clothes do not a man make. That righteousness is the goal - not to make oneself stick out like the proverbial sore thumb.
It doesn't annoy me that you show me that clothes and other garments don't make you a Muslim. BUT from the way your tone is you make it seem as if we are saying that it does, and we are the one who started this "what should women wear?" thread. You started this thread, becuase obviously you were concerned about the way women dress.... don't try to flip the script and make it seem that we were the ones that were.
salaam
-
Peace,
It's not about relaxing dress, or becoming indecent. It's about wearing things befitting to society - not adopting something unusual that marks one out.We'll have to agree to disagree, im afraid. I just dont see the right words to prove this.
The purpose of the directive in 3359 is so that the women may avoid harm - we agree on that point at least. Now let's examine it from that point of view and draw in the required logic.
Yes, certainly.
The women were obviously being targetted, harassed and victimised. That is what was ALREADY happening. How do you suppose the society at large knew that these women were muslim?
That's the key to understanding what was happening. Let's examine 3358...
3358 Those who persecute the believing men and the believing women, who did not do anything wrong, have committed not only a falsehood, but also a gross sin.
There is a persecution going on that is targetting believing men and women for some perceived wrong they are accused of. These people are readily identified already.
Yes but how? Don't forget that the harassers were munafiqeen and that this incident was taking place in al-madeenah. Therefore, to the inhabitants of al-madeenah, these were fellow citizens (i.e. muslims by name). The command to wear identifying jilbaab helps everyone to see all women under an-nabi's protection (33/59 is addressed to him).
Since the directive in 3359 involves modification of clothing then the way they are identified is logically through the adopted garb of these people.
Either way, yes.
Why would there be a directive then to make them stand out even more? If the aim is make them MORE VISIBLE then why not instruct them to paint a red cross on their backs?
The jilbaab is your 'red cross' here. It's quite an outstanding piece of garment.
The idea is quite plainly to make them LESS VISIBLE/NOTICEABLE and thereby escape harm and persecution!
The common understanding would have you believe that they are going from ALREADY VISIBLE to EVEN MORE VISIBLE to escape harm. That does not make sense.
I see it as 'already visible' to 'a warningly scary visible'
I hope the logic and the surrounding statements, as well as internal proof shows that the idea is for the women to wear non-conspicuous clothes that does not show them to be readily different. It talks about garments and not behaviour.
A garment can take on meaning. The hijab for example has become a political statement in France. It all depends on context. The jilbaab in 33/59 is a simple 'dont do it' statement to al-munafiqeen.
-
peace Oben,
You made some interesting points but I disagree with your interpretation. The only point I didn't understand was why it would say "God is ghafooran raheeman", normally translated as "God is Forgiving, Merciful".
ghafooran primary meaning is 'to cover over' which leads to its meanings of 'protecting' & 'forgiving', thus in 3359, it can be seen as "protecting".
Wakas
-
Peace Wakas,
Wonderful.
I was in two minds about the "forgiving" aspect of this and from your prompt I've looked at the meaning underlying "Ghafara" and it means conceal, hide, cover, protect, set affairs right, suppress the defect.
So in effect after telling the women to dress without drawing attention, the God emphasises that He is the one who covers, hides, protects; and that the clothes one wears are not what is the essence.
What is the essence is that the God has given us clothing to wear for cover and for adornment; that we are to guard our modesty; but that the best garments are those of righteousness.
Now all of these together give people the freedom of choice to wear what is modest and beautiful, not create an 'Islamic uniform' to wear one's faith on their sleeve so to speak. To stick out like sore thumbs, and be elitist in appearance and mind. The aim is not to create a uniformed corps of people.
The aim of the verse is to prevent harm from coming to the women - that they be inconspicuous from their clothing point of view.
The final affirmation in the verse therefore confirms that it is the God who covers us for our defects, and protects us as long as we aim to be righteous. It confirms rather than refutes the discussion above in my eyes.
Regards.
-
I have reread this thread in connection with a new thread in the forum Questions regarding aya 33.59
I remembered that the part of this aya when it says Allah is ghafooran, rahiman had been dealt with, and I found it.
I notice that in the ayas before and after this aya woe, curse and loss is the lot God assigns to the persecutors of believers, so, it occurs to me that the Ghafooran rahiman in the aya which is an injunction to the believers, it is telling them that for them if they follow the guidance God is not curse or woe or loss, but forgivenss and mercy. In fact suddenly it feels, the aya, like something soft, caressing for people who are in distress.
Almhandulillah!
Salaam
-
Can we assume that there were wayward young men who teased women passing by regardless whether the women were believers or not? The believing women were being asked to dress distinctively so as to be recognized and left alone.
Not sure what the norms were but some women of those time were perhaps enjoying the attention which was not the case with believing women who were finding it annoying.
Happens these days as well in Middle East and India and Pakistan. Some women even resort to wearing a full Burqa in order not to be stared at and to be left alone. Young men who tease women who do not dress up a certain way assume that the women enjoy attention and erroneously presuming further that they are "loose'. "Why" they ask "the women don't cover themselves up if they don't want the attention?" This of course does not apply to countries where young men don't harass women out in the streets going about their business (other than gawking).
-
bravo
I think this make more sense, until someone in the future with more knowledge will come up with a better interpretation.
I have a personal short story to tell
When I was in the UNI back in the 80's ( Algiers, Algeria) , the so called Hidjab started to be adopted by some of my female friends.
while we were sitting as a small group with some musicians in our midst, a group of Beared boys came to us and talked to the girl with the Hijab and said to her
Shame on you .. how could you sit with these kind of people..!The next day when I met her the hijab has gone, she became normal again.
-
I fished this thread for the sake of the Ghafooran rahiman at the end of aya 33.59 and now I see that both threads are dealing at the same time with similar questions. I am sorry for the situation and, don't know, may be the moderatos want to merge them or leave them as it is.
Going back to the part "ghafoorun rahim", I see that brohter Bigmo, very appropriately, quoted ayas 24.11 to 24.26, and I see that aya 26, which says
- Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity these are not affected by what people say for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable (ghafoorun rahim) .
Exactly the self same expression as at the end of 33.59, Allahu ghafoor rahim.
In both cases in the ayas around it is spoken of the believers that are the object of harassment or slander, social mistreatment anyway, and they are told, that to them Allahu ghafoor rahim.
The forgiveness involved in this Ghafoor seems not to be forgiveness for the believers because they may be doing something wrong, but rather, that if they stand up to justice and rightteousness in those trying circumstances, God will cover their own faults, and will forget other things past or other shortcomings of them. Forgiveness, is somethign that humans are always in need of. We can never have too much of it.
Very nice that our brother pointed tht out.
Salaam
-
I am not sure about hijab or more so niqab being something worn to protect women of looks.
I do not want to say that all or even most women who wear either of them are narcissistic, because that would be unfair and I cannot know such a thing, but I do know that often, those cases I have knowledge of, women who wear thos attirements are narcissistic. They do want not be like other women, they want "to be" special. Taking for granted that you "deprive" somebody of seeing you makes you feel like the world revolves around you. Also in the case of niqab it gives some sense of power to know that you see everybody and everybody is exposed to you, and nobody sees you nor are you exposed to others.
May be we should not worry so much or at all, as to what exact piece of clothing or how we should wear it, but rather than no matter what, we should wear the garment of righteousness. That garment has not been described in the Qur'an nor measurements given.
Salaam
-
Slaamm to all hope you in Peace and Belssings of Allah pr
Well is very well said about hijab and nikab.. to cover face is not a good atitude i presume in my values that is exectly what Huruf said and its also a way of staying apart from socitey/ world around, Well anyway.. Hijab of curse if theres any should be interior first of all, As women, MAN also have the obligation to know limits and respect the wemen and not haress them on sttreets etc... its conduct and self discipline with tolerance and respect for diference that make Man and wemen partners in building and keep the Planet and not this nowadays War Man vs Man and Man vs Women and Women vs Man, Children Vs fathers, fathers Vs children etc... it can be apliied to all(maybe im mixing topic soory, but nothing can be spooken just straight need make conections). O0
I think what is more absurd is the same countrys who promote freedoom want hijab nikab and burkha back, and the ones who call democracy give right to children in shcool which sex she/he want to be.. the teacher ask JEan pierre do you wanna be a boy or a girl? ...
Human beings are like nothing or All, and we are her i Presume to find Middle path, Sirata lmustaqueen, each one with his Qadr to be completed in conection to the Creator, we are loosing/taking too much time looking in wich cloths to wear or food to eat in name of Allah and Majority are just fingers pointing to others say others are infidels and unbelivers..No matter what you do you will alweyes be infidel unbeliver for other...Foloow the Heart and LEt Islam Prevail without misconceptions and Fables of flying horses and other dwarvs from outterspace like if its lord of the rings movie..
BE carefull with all Jedi mind tricks around you sun O0Salaam and sorry for any error, mistake or falso ideas..
PEACE/PAZ groupNOMAD
-
I am not sure about hijab or more so niqab being something worn to protect women of looks.
I do not want to say that all or even most women who wear either of them are narcissistic, because that would be unfair and I cannot know such a thing, but I do know that often, those cases I have knowledge of, women who wear thos attirements are narcissistic. They do want not be like other women, they want "to be" special. Taking for granted that you "deprive" somebody of seeing you makes you feel like the world revolves around you. Also in the case of niqab it gives some sense of power to know that you see everybody and everybody is exposed to you, and nobody sees you nor are you exposed to others.
May be we should not worry so much or at all, as to what exact piece of clothing or how we should wear it, but rather than no matter what, we should wear the garment of righteousness. That garment has not been described in the Qur'an nor measurements given.
Salaam
I fail to see the logic of Niqab or Burqa in a Western environment; If the idea is not to attract any unwaranteed attention, then it fails miserably on that count alone. It creates discomfort and arouses suspicion and apprehension. Not sure what kind of publicity it generates for the Islamic faith (already suffering badly from terrorism).
Therefore, I am inclined to agree that such women WANT attention. The easiest way would be to dress in a modest manner and for those wishing to cover their hair, wear a scarf or (like they do in the Indian subcontinet) a "dupatta"
Revelations must be applied with wisdom, otherwise they end up doing more harm than good!! ("Apply the best of it"
-
On another note, I would like to point out that in Pakistan (not sure about other countries, but could be hapenning) some women wear Burqa and engage in all kinds of immoral activities. A Burqa with full face covering helps them to conceal themselves and go about their business of going no good. You can watch such women caught in the act on Youtube.
Some do it for bad economic times (prostitution) and others sneak out to meet their lovers. A number of them could be cheating on their husbands because of relationship issues/forced marriages, etc. In short, the Burqa provides a cover for all kinds of immoral activities.
-
mubashir,
a person's actions isn't limited to their dress sense. people wear provocative clothing yet do good, people wear modest clothing yet do bad and vice versa.. point?
in Pakistan the dupatta is part of normal cultural clothing, what is western society? why is it that they rise "above" head covering?
western society is just a mix up of other cultures and influences. in western societies you find all kinds of walks. wearing or not wearing a covering is a personal choice.
furthermore just because it raises "suspicion" that is purely speculation and discrimination against people of faith. Why? because of the mass media portraying muslims as such? let the good people step out and show otherwise. not everyone is a fanatic fool even if they have odd dress sense.
