How do we know that Iblis and Satan are the same?
-
Peace Ahmed,
It sounds like your feathers got a bit ruffled, bro. Relax.
Before accusing people of promoting "ideas WITHOUT PROVIDING any single proof to support intellectully their claims", I'd suggest trying the "SEARCH" button, as this topic has been thoroughly exhausted with plenty of proofs.In the meantime, how about we give Arnaab back his/her thread and just answer the question posed?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Ahmed,
If I sensed a sincere interest, I would gladly go down the arduous path of explaining my opinions to you. However, it seems you're being a bit sarcastic. Let's save ourselves the trouble and agree to disagree from the get-go.
Peace,
TayPeace tay,
no I'm not sracastic as I can backup my claims with verses from the Quran that can talk about Iblis clearly as an entity, what I will do is this I will not manipulate the clear arabic meanings as simple as this bro, you will have to go the lengthy path bro to prove your claim as I know there is no such thing in the Quran
you wanna call it sarcasim or whatever, I can't really help that as it is your perspective anyway as i have mine, what i can only say that I'm always sincere
cheers
-
Peace Ahmed,
It sounds like your feathers got a bit ruffled, bro. Relax.
Before accusing people of promoting "ideas WITHOUT PROVIDING any single proof to support intellectully their claims", I'd suggest trying the "SEARCH" button, as this topic has been thoroughly exhausted with plenty of proofs.In the meantime, how about we give Arnaab back his/her thread and just answer the question posed?
Peace,
Taysorry bro I don't search the old topics as i have no time, this forum is to discuss whatever about the Quran anyway, it is not to re-read the old stuf again and again
hence if you have things to say to me that you consider old, i will consider them new and please do say it
peace
-
Peace Ahmed,
Like I said, this is Arnaab's thread, and I answered his query. It would be nice if you would do the same so the different views are offered and one can make up their own mind.
I'm not sure why you're on this crusade against all things symbolic, but that's your perogative. My experience with you has been somewhat fruitful, but it has also been exhausting, since you don't seem to read the entire thread nor take a moment to let it soak in. This is evidenced by your comment
I wonder tay how this ego of a shaitan has progny?
You see, I never said, "ego of a shaitan".
Nevertheless, the sarcasm is apparent despite your denial. The smiley face you posted -----> lol indicates laughter.
Tell me, when does one laugh in a debate when there is no humor involved? Answer when one is being sarcastic.
So, if you want to really discuss this matter, then please start a new thread and I will gladly oblige.
Peace be upon you,
Tayp.s. If you don't search old threads, then you shouldn't make sweeping generalizations like, "they never bring proof". That was my point.
-
Peace Ahmed,
peace Tay
Like I said, this is Arnaab's thread, and I answered his query. It would be nice if you would do the same so the different views are offered and one can make up their own mind.
I did the same bro and offered my backed up views, it is not my problem that I have not came with something new or sort of out of date, sorry
I'm not sure why you're on this crusade against all things symbolic, but that's your perogative.
well, it is not a crusade as I do it using the Quran alone as what you guys say surely will make the Quran a very silly book and you indeed are mocking the message without knowing hence and according to the Quran I have to refute your wrong claims "if they are wrong" using the Quran alone, this will make me feel peace as I always felt it for 40 years in my life, as well it enhances my knowledge about the Arabic Quran and sure within a few years it will be very solid inshaallah and this will make me able to refute anyone with wrong and unbacked claims against the Quran that may cause discord between the true believeres in the Arabic Quran regardless what sect or what religion that person belong to
and I do consider this period in my life as the period to gain nothing but experience to deal with all these sort of things that clearly put the Quran in the wrong and render it nothing but a confusing book and that is not good according to the Quran
My experience with you has been somewhat fruitful, but it has also been exhausting,
thanks, likewise as I said i learnt a lot from my replys to the others and picked up many things from the others, in fact i read my replys many times and always wonder how the hell I wrote this, regarding exhaustaion, well, imagine what it does to me then, especially i do it with many at once, it is damn exhausting but no retreat bro, this is what i decided that my life should be till I die. there is nothing better in this life than knowing the Quran really well and i'm still learning
since you don't seem to read the entire thread nor take a moment to let it soak in. This is evidenced by your comment
how did you judge that I did't read it?
let me say that you are wrong, I read it and could not see any merit to the claim that Iblis = Ego or previous allegations, hence I showed what the Quran clearly said about Iblis in just a few verses and logically speaking it can't be ego consequently I will keep refuting it using the Quran and leave the others who yet to make up their mind to decide
I wonder tay how this ego of a shaitan has progny?
You see, I never said, "ego of a shaitan".
sorry it is my lack of english, I meant the ego that represenetd by a shaitan in the Quran
Nevertheless, the sarcasm is apparent despite your denial. The smiley face you posted -----> lol indicates laughter.
you have to know that in religious debates, it is common knowledge to have a bit of sarcasim, hence I consider it part of it and is not sarcasim, but did i disrespect you?
Tell me, when does one laugh in a debate when there is no humor involved? Answer when one is being sarcastic.
well you are going outside the subject here, but to answer your question it is simply when someone says something laughable I laugh even if in a debate, and i do laugh and been honest and tell them , if you see any of my comments laughable, please laugh I will not be upset, laughter is the best medicine
So, if you want to really discuss this matter, then please start a new thread and I will gladly oblige.
ok I will but give me a couple of days please
Peace be upon you,
Taylikewise, cheers
p.s. If you don't search old threads, then you shouldn't make sweeping generalizations like, "they never bring proof". That was my point.
sorry I messed this PS
i don't think your statement that you made about ego = iblis requires me to go and search for what you or others stated, you came here added half a line of a comment that ego = iblis, I added mine with supporting verses from the Quran that it can't be, if you want to prove your concept then the onus is on you to bring whatever from the Quran in here so I can respond to it or just leave it till I start our thread in about 2 days, peace
-
Peace Ahmed,
Here's what you said earlier
no I'm not sracastic
and here's what you said most recently
it is common knowledge to have a bit of sarcasim, hence I consider it part of it
Do you see why it's exhausting?
Peace,
Taymate if we gonna be that picky on the words then fine I'm really good at that
if you still think it is a deliberat sarcasim to mock you then I'm sorry again and I assure you it was not deliberate, however if you debate me more you will see that this is my style, and many known religious debaters use that style
it is commonly known for any debate if any party said something silly the other party MUST PICK ON IT, and I do it with fairness anyway, ie, the lil bit of sarcasm is both ways,
I'm working it the thread I will reasie for you bro, it will take me between 2 to 3 days
thanks
-
Peace be upon you Ahmed,
(214) And if they were alone with to their shayteen they said "Surely we are with you, but we are mocking ."
Have you ever been alone with little red men with pitch forks, talking to them? Anyone you know do that? But we do sit home and talk to the thoughts in our minds, the ones that say "go ahead, eat that chocolate cake even though you are overweight", or "go ahead and have sex with that girl, even though you are married to someone else", etc etc.
Why would you believe in some "devil" out there? How can you get past santa claus but get caught up here?
Do you know why the devil was painted as having horns and tail and hoofs? Because it is the ANIMAL NATURE within us that we are fighting against, the emotions, that which ANIMATES YOU. In the Bible Jesus said "get ye behind me satan". The emotions must follow the will, not lead.
So solomon showed us how to make the emotions follow and work for us.
But as has been said to you on several occasions, you are free to keep following the literal, unproveable path.
-
Peace be upon you Ahmed,
(214) And if they were alone with to their shayteen they said "Surely we are with you, but we are mocking ."
peace mate
214 for ,e is talking about the terrorists and tehir shayateen for me is their leaders in hiding
Have you ever been alone with little red men with pitch forks, talking to them?
no
Anyone you know do that? But we do sit home and talk to the thoughts in our minds, the ones that say "go ahead, eat that chocolate cake even though you are overweight", or "go ahead and have sex with that girl, even though you are married to someone else", etc etc.
no but I can hear them, the Quran told us we can 't see them but they can see us, now tell me how an ego sees?
Why would you believe in some "devil" out there? How can you get past santa claus but get caught up here?
I don;t belive there only some devil, rather heaps of them, and who is santa claus, is he a devil name?
Do you know why the devil was painted as having horns and tail and hoofs? Because it is the ANIMAL NATURE within us that we are fighting against, the emotions, that which ANIMATES YOU. In the Bible Jesus said "get ye behind me satan". The emotions must follow the will, not lead.
really?, anyway OI careless in how he looks because Allah told us we can't see them, but if I have a guess I reckon they are too ugly
So solomon showed us how to make the emotions follow and work for us.
really?, solomon didnlt show me anything, I also didn't see solomon, but let me ask you how did he show you?
But as has been said to you on several occasions, you are free to keep following the literal, unproveable path.
Haha, the literal now becomes unprovable, hence you suggest that the non literal is provable? that is funny mate please show me your proofs, but wait for my thread Tay and you are welcome to respond there
peace
-
Peace be upon you Ahmed,
(214) And if they were alone with their shayteen they said "Surely we are with you, but we are mocking ."
peace mate
214 for ,e is talking about the terrorists and tehir shayateen for me is their leaders in hiding
Oh, I can see how that would be guidance for mankind , we all have terrorists that we are ALONE with, dont we?
idolfree1 wrote
Have you ever been alone with little red men with pitch forks, talking to them?no
Good, how about terrorists?
idolfree1 wrote
Anyone you know do that? But we do sit home and talk to the thoughts in our minds, the ones that say "go ahead, eat that chocolate cake even though you are overweight", or "go ahead and have sex with that girl, even though you are married to someone else", etc etc.no but I can hear them, the Quran told us we can 't see them but they can see us, now tell me how an ego sees?
You see how that literal viewpoint stops you at every step? I guess when you figure out how a HEART has eyes, you will figure this part out, because it is not the eyes that are blind, its the heart, remember? The statement that they see us but we dont see them is to say they are hidden (jinn) and they effect us as if they see our every move.
idolfree1 wrote
Why would you believe in some "devil" out there? How can you get past santa claus but get caught up here?I don;t belive there only some devil, rather heaps of them, and who is santa claus, is he a devil name?
Yes, the devil is legions, one incorrect thought like literal interpretations for example leads to all kind of wrong ideas(legions).
idolfree1 wrote
Do you know why the devil was painted as having horns and tail and hoofs? Because it is the ANIMAL NATURE within us that we are fighting against, the emotions, that which ANIMATES YOU. In the Bible Jesus said "get ye behind me satan". The emotions must follow the will, not lead.really?, anyway OI careless in how he looks because Allah told us we can't see them, but if I have a guess I reckon they are too ugly
Ok
idolfree1 wrote
So solomon showed us how to make the emotions follow and work for us.really?, solomon didnlt show me anything, I also didn't see solomon, but let me ask you how did he show you?
Through the metaphor.
idolfree1 wrote
But as has been said to you on several occasions, you are free to keep following the literal, unproveable path.Haha, the literal now becomes unprovable, hence you suggest that the non literal is provable? that is funny mate please show me your proofs, but wait for my thread Tay and you are welcome to respond there
Let me know when its ready.
-
Peace idolfree
here is what you asked for, can you debate me that these verses are not abnout the terrorists and similar i call them "Confused believers"
Does the Quran talk about the terrorists?
We all know that the Quran is divided into 114 Suras ?Chapters?
The first Sura is called ?Al-Fataha?, like ?Introduction? and is only 7 verses, the second Sura starting at page 2 is called ?Al-Baqara?, which means ?The Cow?, this is actually the longest Sura in the Quran and consists of 286 verses, this Sura has plenty of information regarding many things like the history of the first humankind on earth, explaining who is our One and only God ?Allah?, and sure the story of Adam and Eve and many more about the Jews and others, what is striking in this Sura is verses 2 to 20, in these verses Allah is telling us about 3 groups of people similar to a passage in the Bible, however the Quran was clear as light in the descriptions of these groups of people, in fact the Quran is always clear as light in about 95% of its contents, it was designed this way as stated in it numerous times, let?s start by looking what the Quran said about these 3 groups of people, all the verses mentioned are
The First Group ? verses 22-5 ? The Believers
(2) ?This is the Book (The Quran); in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;?
(3) ?Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;?
(4) ?And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.?
(5) ?They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.?
(2)
(3)
(4)
(5)
The believers descriptions are very clear, extracted from the above verses as follow
Verse 2 ?This is the Book (The Quran); in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;?, i.e. the Quran is their guidance and they fear Allah.
Verse 3 ?Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;?, i.e. they believe in the UNSEEN, they are steadfast in prayer and they give money to the poor and needy.
Verse 4 ?And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.?, i.e. they believe in the Quran, they believe in all previous inspirations, and they have the assurance of the hereafter.
Verse 5 ?They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.?, i.e they follow the and unchanged guidance and they are the ones that will prosper.
The Second Group ? verses 6-7 ? The Unbelievers
(6) ?As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.?
(7) ?Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).?
(6)
(7)
-> The unbelievers descriptions are very clear as well, extracted from the above verses as follow
Verse 6 ?As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.?. i.e. They reject faith (rejected the Quran), they will never believe wether they are warned or not.
Verse 7?Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).?, i.e. they have seals on their hearts and hearings set upon by Allah as a result of their arrogance, they have also veils over they eyes, and they will incur a great punishment for their arrogance, this seal and veil set by Allah are actually explain why these unbelievers will not believe wether they are warned or not as stated in verse 6, it is like they have been cursed by Allah due to their arrogance and their biased hearts and minds.
The Third Group ? verses 28-20 ? The Terrorists or The Hypocrites?
I will walk you through it verse by verse while extracting the decriptions, to make it as clear as possible
( ?Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.?
(
-> i.e. They say they believe in Allah and the Last Day, BUT they do not really believe.
(9) ?Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!?
(9)
-> i.e. They deceive Allah and they deceive the believers (the first group), but they actually deceive themselves and they DO NOT REALISE THEIR SELF DECEPTION, this is clear as light that those thugs deceive Allah, now please tell me, what more deception to Allah than beheading an innocent man while cheering with Allah?s name?, as well, can you see that those thugs deceive the believers as well as stated. This can happen in two ways as we we see it now, deception to all believers by misleading the whole world and showing the innocent religion as a barbaric one, as well trying to recruit the young believers and convince them by deception to commit atrocities by strapping bombs around them and blow away any innocent human in the vicinity including Muslims, well, the Quran told us in this verse that the terrorists only deceive themselves and they do not realise it.
(10) ?In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).?
(10)
-> i.e. Their hearts is full of diseases, this is a perfect and accurate description about the terrorists, what sort of ill heart a person have to behead or order to behead an innocent man?, well a very sick heart for sure, this heart sickness is increased by Allah because of their submission to Satan, it is like Allah will make them commit more crimes so THE GRIEVOUS IS THE PENALTY THEY INCUR because they are FALSE TO THEMSELVES, what an accuracy in describing those thugs, still more to follow.
(11) ?When it is said to them "Make not mischief on the earth," they say "Why, we are the ones who make things right!"
(11)
-> i.e. When we call those thugs to stop their atrocities and the mischief on earth they commit, they respond by saying that they are the ones who are doing things right, another perfect description about the terrorists.
(12) ?Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.?
(12)
-> i.e. Allah is telling us not to believe those thugs (who claimed they are the ones who are doings things right) by confirming to us that they are indeed ?surety? the ones who are making mischief on earth and still do not realise it, perfect description again.
(13) ?When it is said to them "Believe as the others believe" They say "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.?
(13)
-> i.e. Those thugs were called to believe as the normal believers believe (the first group) but they respond by saying that the normal believers are fool, and Allah is telling us that indeed ?surety? they are the real fools and they still do not know it.
(14) ?When they meet those who believe, they say "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say "We are really with you We (were) only jesting."
(14)
-> i.e. Some of those thugs pray with us in the mosques showing that they are believers ?those are the unknown recruited ones?, but when they meet the leaders in hiding ?their evil ones? they say they were only jesting them (the believers), I see the evil ones as the known terrorists leaders like Laden and Zarqawi, the evil ones can also be the "Kareen" that Allah has assigned for each one of them.
(15) ?Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).?
(15)
-> i.e. Allah is very angry with those thugs and consequently this what must happen Allah will throw back their mockery on them, He will give them rope in their trespasses and they will wander like blinds.
(16) ?These are they who have bartered Guidance for error But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,?
(16)
-> i.e. Those terrorists who took error in place of guidance, and their traffic is profitless (think about the ransoms they asked for the kidnapping or possibly their drug dealing in Afganistan? and they indeed lost the true direction.
(17) ?Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.?
(17)
-> i.e. Allah is giving us a similitude of those thugs of someone who lit a light, then the light lighted all around him and suddenly Allah will take their light away and leave them in darkness, well I see this verse as saying that those thugs will succeed in some of their sick atrocities ?it lighted all around him? but the bottom line is their final destination is indeed going to be darkness.
(1 ?Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).?
(1
-> i.e. They are Deaf, Dumb and Blind, indeed the verse is telling us that they will not return to the right path, another perfect descriptions.
(19) ?Or (another similitude) is that of a rain-laden cloud from the sky In it are zones of darkness, and thunder and lightning They press their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunder-clap, the while they are in terror of death. But Allah is ever round the rejecters of Faith!?
(19)
-> This verse really stroke me hard when I read the Eglish translation by Yusuf Ali. It is giving another similitude about the terrorists, the similitude is like them walking in darkness while there is thunder rain and lighting, and those thugs are too scared from this hostile environment and they keep pressing their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunder clap while they are in terror of death, mates, this is like them being bombarded by the allies B52s, what do you think?
BUT WHAT STRIKE ME MORE IS THE WORD ?LADEN? in the sentence ?is that of a rain-laden cloud from the sky? as translated by Yusuf Ali, sure I know that the verse is not talking about Bin Laden, but what an amazing coincidence that is for the English readers, I actually laughed when I noticed it, I love the Quran, how accurate it is under any circumstances?.
(20) ?The lightning all but snatches away their sight; every time the light (Helps) them, they walk therein, and when the darkness grows on them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could take away their faculty of hearing and seeing; for Allah hath power over all things.?
(20)
-> This is the rest of the similitude started in verse 19, it shows how this hostile environment will destroy the terrorists.
Ok brothers and sisters, this is very accurate stuff and very explicit to the terrorists and in the Quran first page, when I discussed this with most reasonable and open minded muslims, most agreed and some tried to tell me that it talks about the the hypocrites "Al Monafiqoon", the problem here will be that the Quran is never shy to call the Hypocrites "Hypocrites", in fact there is a whole sura called "The Hypocrites" , this sura consists of 11 verses, in 8 of those verses the Quran talks about the Hypocrites and call them Hypocrites 4 times, while in the 13 verses 2820, it never used the word Hypocrites to describe them, as well you do not call a hypocrite to believe as the others believe because a hypocrite is already showing that he is a believer. further more, I will agree that some of the descriptions above fit a hypocrite, but NOT all decriptions fit a hypocrite, please go through it verse by verse again (8-20) and see for yourself if every description fit a hypocrite, MY STRONGEST ARGUMENT THAT IT HAS TO BE THE TERRORISTS BECAUSE ALLAH NEVER CALLED THEM HYPOCRITES IN THOSE 13 VERSES, AND LOGICALLY SPEAKING, IF ALLAH NEVER USED THE WORD HYPOCRITE ONCE TO DESCRIBE THOSE PEOPLE THEN MOST LIKELY IT IS NOOT ABOUT THE HYPOCRITES, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE DESCRIPTIONS AGAIN YOU WILL SEE THAT EVERY SINGLE ONE WILL FIT A TERRORIST
Thanks for reading
Ahmed Bahgat
-
Peace Ahmed,
Here it is again
- no I'm not sracastic
- it is common knowledge to have a bit of sarcasim, hence I consider it part of it
See? - 2 different/opposite answers to the same query.
It's not about being picky. It's not about whether or not sarcasm is commonly used in debating.
It's about you giving 2 different answers, brother.
Let's see how the new thread goes wink
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Ahmed,
Here it is again
- no I'm not sracastic
- it is common knowledge to have a bit of sarcasim, hence I consider it part of it
peace tay
tne first can also mean that I'm not generaly sarcastic lol
the second is only relating to religious debates only
See? - 2 different/opposite answers to the same query.
sorry, i don't see it this way , they are different answers to two different situations
- in general (and I'm not)
- specific to religious debates (and I'm)
It's not about being picky. It's not about whether or not sarcasm is commonly used in debating.
ok then , yep saracasm is part of the debating game as far as I believe, but it can be practised in healthy and in a non offending manner lol
It's about you giving 2 different answers, brother.
yep they are for a two different situations
for eample I'm not sracastic with you now because we don't debate religions, therefore in general I'm not sarcastic lolLet's see how the new thread goes wink
Peace,
Taywell i wasted my time with memeber somewhere so I will be running a bit late
I will present my evidences then you can present yours and after that we can respond to each one's bit by bit, sounds fair?
peace
-
Peace Ahmed,
You stated
tne first can also mean that I'm not generaly sarcastic
the second is only relating to religious debates only
Bro, is it that hard for you to admit your fault? Are you that prideful that you would deny what's in plain black and white for everyone to see? You replied with 2 opposite responses to the same exact inquiry. First you denied being sarcastic, then, when I pointed out the smiley face laughing you said sarcasm was part of debate. shock
My goodness man!
You seem to be educated and you continually boast about your mastery of the Arabic language. How about showing a bit of humility, bro.
Take care, and Happy New Year,
Tay -
Peace Ahmed,
You stated
tne first can also mean that I'm not generaly sarcastic
the second is only relating to religious debates only
Bro, is it that hard for you to admit your fault? Are you that prideful that you would deny what's in plain black and white for everyone to see? You replied with 2 opposite responses to the same exact inquiry. First you denied being sarcastic, then, when I pointed out the smiley face laughing you said sarcasm was part of debate. shock
Peace bro
I did no fault and you can keep talking but I will not discuss it any more as I have no time to waste
also I think I said bloody sorry for a couple of times that you ignored therefore forget about my post to you, as I changed my mind
My goodness man!
You seem to be educated and you continually boast about your mastery of the Arabic language. How about showing a bit of humility, bro.
well here it is again, I made no mistake neither I humiliated you, you can keep convincing yourself and state non sense
I explianed myself enough as well said bloody sorry twice to to show my humanity but I inisist I did nothing wrong to you
Take care, and Happy New Year,
TayLikewiise and happy new year to you too
ahmed
-
Salaam Brothers,
I have been following along reading (sometimes with amusement) at the posts to this thread. Unfortunatley I have been to preoccupied and too busy to reply. But I have time now ) .First of all....lets get back to the topic and stop focusing on sarcasm and semantics of our (humanly flawed) speech. Its often very easy by the way to type one thing and have it read by another person to mean something entirely different. We don't all have the same thought pattern.
Second.... I believe the Quran states in 37....
37 (Literal translation acording to YAQB.org) He is who descended on you The Book , from it (are) perfected/tightened verses, they are (F) The Book's origin/mother , and others resembling/ambiguous/obscure , so but those who in their hearts/minds (is) deviation from truth , so they follow what resembled from it, asking/desiring the treason and asking/desiring its interpretation/explanation , and none knows its interpretation/explanation except God. And the affirmed in the knowledge , they say "We believed with it, all/each (is) from at our Lord, and none remember/mention except (those) of the pure minds/intelligence ."I think I can see the symbolism that idolfree mz357, and Tay are talking about but I don't know if it holds true in all instances and also at present time I can't find any verse in the Quran that suggests we should read it as allegorical. Please provide verses if you can find any.
Third.... With the second point in mind...someone please explain to me how Iblis and Shaitan get confused as the same entity (in arabic....forget the english translations who call Iblis the devil and satan etc) I'm talking about the Arabic verses that referre to SHAITAN and the others that referre to IBLIS and how some Muslims consider them to be one entity.
Salam,
I believe the difference on THE WORD GRAMMATICAL LEVEL between "iblis" and "shaitaan" is the same as that between "allah" and "ilah" where the first is specific and the second common. "iblis" can often be found to have been translated by Arabic dictionaries as "THE Devil" or "Satan(with capital S)". Thus "Iblis" may be equated with "ASH(silent "l" before sun character "sheen")-shaitaan" in Arabic measning "THE devil". And i agree it refers to a particular devil, the Boss Devil. GOD Bless!I'm sorry I don't see it....how can the fact that both words contain the same character mean that they share the same or similiar definition....a root word I understand but not on the basis of the words sharing just a single character. Forgive my ignorance. I'm sure you can make me understand.
Fourth.....How can Iblis be a Shaitan....and a Jinn? I am thoroughly confused on how the three are intertangled.
Here is my current understanding
Iblis is a Jinn
Shaitan....I don't know what he/those are.
I know that hell is filled with disbelievers and those (of men and jinn)who commit shirk etc.
The Jinn don't even know the unseen.....
3414 (Free-Minds) Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realised that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.
I understand that the root of Jinn is commonly believed to indicate that the jinn are unseen...but they are made of an element (fire) like us (clay) so maybe (I'm just putting it out there for consideration) they ARE SEEN?
Furthermore at present time I cannot find a verse in the Quran that states that the jinn are unseen. Please point it out to me if you can find one.I thank you all for your help.
-
Peace arnaab
as I stated before
Jinn can be good and bad
the bad one is labeled Shaitan
it is nothing but a label to a bad Jinn, it can also be applied to a bad human, we use this commonly in the arab countries and to the extreme we can call a very bad human "Iblis"
regarding your query about not seeing them, here it is and clearly the label Shaitan, which means a bad Jinn was used to refer to "Iblis"
O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.
(27)
Peace
-
Salaam Ahmed,
Jinn can be good and bad
Agreed Akhi
the bad one is labeled Shaitan
it is nothing but a label to a bad Jinn, it can also be applied to a bad human, we use this commonly in the arab countries and to the extreme we can call a very bad human "Iblis"
Please excuse my ignorance I have not seen a verse to support this yet.
regarding your query about not seeing them, here it is and clearly the label Shaitan, which means a bad Jinn was used to refer to "Iblis"
O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.
Here is where the confusion begins I think. Lets walk through this....
234 (Maulana Ali) And when We said to the angels, Be submissive to Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (did not). He refused and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.
Iblis refused to prostrate to Adam and later in the Quran we are told he was of the jinn
235 (Free-Minds) And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."
236 (Free-Minds) So, the devil (alshshaytanu in arabic) tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend, you are enemies of one another. And in the land shall be stability for you and luxury for a while."
I have read where Iblis did not prostrate to adam.....and I have read where shaitan expelled adam and his wife from the garden....but not where Iblis and shaitan are the same entity. It seems to me (at this point in my studies) that they are two different entities.
Furthermore if you referre to the TorahIt was the serpent (Nachash in hebrew) that made the woman slip.
Bereishit 31
(hebrew) Vehanachash hayah arum mikol chayat hasadeh asher asah HASHEM Elokim vayomer el-ha'ishah af ki-amar Elokim lo tochelu mikol etz hagan.
The serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which HASHEM G-d made; and it said to the woman, "Did G-d even say that you should not eat from all the trees of the Garden?"Bereishit 32
(hebrew) Vatomer ha'ishah el-hanachash mipri etz-hagan nochel.
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the Garden.Bereishit 34
(hebrew) Vayomer hanachash el-ha'ishah lo mot temutun.
The serpent said to the woman, "You certainly will not die.Bereishit 313
(hebrew) Vayomer HASHEM Elokim la'ishah mah-zot asit vatomer ha'ishah hanachash hishi'ani va'ochel.
HASHEM G-d said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" She said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."Bereishit 314
(hebrew) Vayomer HASHEM Elokim el-hanachash ki asita zot arur atah mikol-habehemah umikol chayat hasadeh al-gechonecha telech ve'afar tochal kol-yemei chayecha.
HASHEM G-d said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you from among all animals and beasts of the field. On your belly you shall crawl. And dust you shall eat all the days of your life.I appreciate your thoughts....
-
Peace Arnaab,
You stated
lets get back to the topic and stop focusing on sarcasm and semantics
My apologies for letting the sidetrack get out of hand.
at present time I can't find any verse in the Quran that suggests we should read it as allegorical. Please provide verses if you can find any.
I believe the ayah you provided (37) is exactly what you're looking for. You'll notice there is no disclaimer, as in, some sort of red flag before all allegorical verses. Remember, Allah does not shy from using any allegory, no matter how small (226).
please explain to me how Iblis and Shaitan get confused as the same entity (in arabic....forget the english translations who call Iblis the devil and satan etc) I'm talking about the Arabic verses that referre to SHAITAN and the others that referre to IBLIS and how some Muslims consider them to be one entity.
Please provide the specific ayat you're referring to.
Peace,
Tay