Prophet Mohammed

unknownuser

MQuran

I responded to your thread but that is about it really, I don't feel like discussing the Quran with you any more unless there will be fair judges that me and you obey, no offence though

thanks

Leyla

Mquran

Agreed. There is one difference though. To my recollection, I never spoke in Ahmed-ian tones, words like

you're ABSOLUTELY wrong
you're 500% wrong
my uncle the arab knows better
my AUNTIE the arab knows better
you're a hypocrite (but is scared to say so directly)
you really agree with me but your ego stops you from saying so

Lol, yes. True. And as you can see I am starting to lose my patience here as well at the moment and should better remind me myself to humble my language.

What happened was, the quran-only approach was presented. I was in shock, I researched and I struggled. Ahmed's words shows that he's afraid to confront the reality of the Quran.

Very true. But I do recall times when I was more afraid of that reality myself. And maybe the others` state of being afraid is the state where you?ve been once in shock yourself.
Hey, let?s just present the message over and over ..... second yawn.
No reason to let emotions develop.
We know best ourselves where we did our job and attained security in our virewpoint and where we still need to research.

Ahmed

?S L M? , to surrender(submit) or to greet, Both meanings are common and a variety of words can be driven out of it

May I ask you, what an inconsistent approach is that ??
First you tell me (wrongly)

The root method is flawed and can't apply to all words

and now you suddenly come up with supposed root meanings yourself ??
Can you please agree on a method of argumentation?

Do not know what you mean really, I agree that the word Islam is the same wazn as Islah, so what?, i mean what is the point?, "Islah" means "Fixing" Islam means "Submission"

Since you still don?t get it
The quranic Arabic language is a consistent system that follows its own grammatic patterns. All these patterns have a certain meaning.
The relationship between islah and salah is such a pattern with meaning. And the same pattern is applied to islam and salam.
And you tell me there?s no relationship between islam and salam and the root method is flawed????
That?s ridiculous!
What is worse
Suddenly you come up with a supposed root of both by yourself.

Ok now I got you, see the confusion arose from writing arabic words with english letters, a very flawed method for sure

Yes it is. But not everyone has the technical possibilities on her present computer as you have.
And the method would be no problem if you would be a little bit more into consistent relationships of quranic grammar. uh.
You would have got my point in a second.

Haha nice try dear sis, i will do it when you know how to write in arabic

Yep, try to ridicule me, good tactic.
Apparently I do know how to read and write Arabic. I just do not have the facilities for it here on my present computer.

And what the gramatical construction has to do with the meanings? never heard in arabic that there are relation really, each word in arabic is independent regardless if it share the root with zillion other words or not

You should talk to a serious Arabic linguits. Even the most traditional one will tell you that different grammatical patterns from one root do form meanings and have a lot to do with relations between words!!
This is pretty common knowledge as well.

Well, I guess you too assume a lot

Well, unfortunately we all do at times and I am sorry for every time I do.
But I am assuming nothing when I say that you have no right to call Kyle a k?fir and that your understanding in this respect is really flawed.
Sometimes things are just very sure and plain and simple.

well you may need to study The Quran again, but I'm sorry I have no time to show it to you for the time being

I come to assume that I studied the qur'?n for much longer and much more earnestly then you, when reading those comments.
Now THAT was an assumption.
But the best response you could get to your assumption.

peace

unknownuser

Ahmed

Leyla

?S L M? , to surrender(submit) or to greet, Both meanings are common and a variety of words can be driven out of it

May I ask you, what an inconsistent approach is that ??
First you tell me (wrongly)

The root method is flawed and can't apply to all words

Well, after I answer your question, I will need to ask you a question

The approach was merely to show the meaning of the root for the root method addicts

Now can you tell me please, why you say my approach is inconsistent?

and now you suddenly come up with supposed root meanings yourself ??
Can you please agree on a method of argumentation?

I never used the root to explain the meaning of any Arabic word in my life, If you read the rest of my comment you will see that I only used the verses of the Quran to get the meanings, , I only posted the root meanings for the Arabic language novices as being fair, i.e., as well I included the argument or the supporters of the root method as well

It seems you didn't read the many verses I posted as you only select that comment to respond too, looks very funny by you indeed lol , as if you did, then why you did not respond to it? Do you care to educate us using the verses I posted?

Do not know what you mean really, I agree that the word Islam is the same wazn as Islah, so what?, I mean what is the point?, "Islah" means "Fixing" Islam means "Submission"

Since you still don?t get it
The quranic Arabic language is a consistent system that follows its own grammatical patterns. All these patterns have a certain meaning.
The relationship between islah and salah is such a pattern with meaning. And the same pattern is applied to islam and salam.
And you tell me there?s no relationship between islam and salam and the root method is flawed????
That?s ridiculous!
What is worse
Suddenly you come up with a supposed root of both by yourself.

lol try again

Ok now I got you, see the confusion arose from writing Arabic words with english letters, a very flawed method for sure

Yes it is. But not everyone has the technical possibilities on her present computer as you have.

shock what a computer technical possibilities has to do with it?

I thought you know how to copy and paste?, I can show you how

And the method would be no problem if you would be a little bit more into consistent relationships of quranic grammar. uh.
You would have got my point in a second.

Sorry I don't get it, and thanks I don't want to get it so you donlt need to try for the third time.

Haha nice try dear sis, I will do it when you know how to write in Arabic

Yep, try to ridicule me, good tactic.
Apparently I do know how to read and write Arabic. I just do not have the facilities for it here on my present computer.

Good for you, then all you need that I show you how to copy and paste and way you go with Arabic typing on this forum

And what the gramatical construction has to do with the meanings? never heard in Arabic that there are relation really, each word in Arabic is independent regardless if it share the root with zillion other words or not

You should talk to a serious Arabic linguits.

Sure, I will check in the Yellow Pages

Even the most traditional one will tell you that different grammatical patterns from one root do form meanings and have a lot to do with relations between words!!

well if they told you so, the ones I dealt with didn't tell me as such, so I guess you call yours and I call mine and we put them together, do you reckon this should be a good solution?

This is pretty common knowledge as well.

Let me ask you first?

Your common, or my common , or the common sense?

Well, I guess you too assume a lot

Well, unfortunately we all do at times and I am sorry for every time I do.

Sure I'm sorry too, do you think the many scientists should say sorry as well about the many wrong assumptions they did?, I think even Einstien had a blunder

Do you know that in math we also assume too many things when we try to solve a problem?, so you think sorrow will be required by us? But to whom?, I don?t really know. Possibly to the examiner?

But I am assuming nothing when I say that you have no right to call Kyle a k?fir and that your understanding in this respect is really flawed.

Back to Kyle again, well, I?m sorry I have a headache and I can only talk with Kyle about this subject to prevent my headache from oscillating, Cough, Cough

Sometimes things are just very sure and plain and simple.

?Sometimes things? shock I don't know what you mean, sounds too vague to me.

well you may need to study The Quran again, but I'm sorry I have no time to show it to you for the time being

I come to assume that I studied the qur'?n for much longer and much more earnestly then you, when reading those comments.
Now THAT was an assumption.
But the best response you could get to your assumption.

I could not make any sense from the above comment, but don?t worry about it, I don?t need to know what you mean

Thank you

peace

Leyla

Peace

Well, I don?t respond to your post of verses because it has no relevance to what I was trying to tell you.
E.g. you post verses to prove that it is wrong that isl?m never appeared as a verb in the qur'?n.
However, I never claimed that there is no verb correspoding to isl?m.
So, how should I respond to something like that?
It has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

try again

No, I won?t. If you can?t see the function of consistent grammatical patterns, I can?t help. I would still ask you to turn to an Arabic linguist though because, as I said, even the most traditional one will tell you that consistent grammatical patterns create relations among Arabic words from the same roots.
This is even more true if you take it away from established linguistics and relate it directly to the qur'?n.

what a computer technical possibilities has to do with it?

I thought you know how to copy and paste?, I can show you how

Don?t be silly. No one mentioned the words salah and islah in Arabic script here before me so I could not copy and paste them for you. could have gone on a journey through the internet to find them but since I only wanted to give you a hint about the relation between sal?m and isl?m there was no need to do so.

Sure I'm sorry too, do you think the many scientists should say sorry as well about the many wrong assumptions they did?, I think even Einstien had a blunder

Einstein was always willing to reform his thinking when presented with sufficient proof. So am I. Apparently, you are not. You are clinging to, as mquran rightfully says, what your Arab uncles say.
The qur#?n warns us over and over to just accept somethign the way it is taught by our fathers and family!
To do so is a logical fallacy and has nothing to do with studying the qur'?n.

Get it, man. If the qur'?n is guidance for all mankind it can not be historical and can not be understood through historically developed meanings.

Back to Kyle again, well, I?m sorry I have a headache and I can only talk with Kyle about this subject to prevent my headache from oscillating, Cough, Cough

Well, sorry that I cam back to Kyle. You ae right, he should speak for himself. Our whole discussion here was about your ideas on kufr and Kyle and me objecting to that. How could I avoid mentioning him again?
But you?re right. We will wait for his own opinion and until then the subject is closed.

?Sometimes things? I don't know what you mean, sounds too vague to me.

Don?t be silly again. The phrase was part of a whole paragraph and so it was very clear what I was refering to.

No, you don?t need to know what I mean. You better come to your own conclusions.
But better do so with the eternal message of the qur'?n and not with some history book.

Bye

unknownuser

Ok Leyla

Bye

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

I have not read all of the posts so I may not be 100% informed, but from what I gather is that Ahmed has given me the label of "non Muslim". Some have engaged the brother in my defense. I appreciate the support.

Ahmed, if you are refering to the capitalized word "MUSLIM" which is used to denote someone who belongs to the Arabic religion of "Islam", then you are correct, I am not a "MUSLIM".

But if you are referring to the description as used in this proclamation(quran) we are studying, then that would be lower case "muslim" meaning one who is peaceful (submissive to God's LAW).

In any case, I have never needed anyone to agree or disagree with my description, the God suffices as a witness. D

Brother Ahmed, I would love to explain over and over again my position to you, but I am getting too mature in this way of life to continue doing so. There comes a point when we must understand that someone is just not ready to hear what you have to say. The heart must soften first.

I respectfully leave you to your accusations and give you the response of PEACE be upon you.

Prince

^^Well said Brother Kyle!

I'm only a spectator in all of this but brother Ahmed you need to be abit more understanding and sincere when it comes to learning from people. I'm not saying agree with everything someone says but don't put up a defense when someone tries to explain to you something as I think thats where most people error and emotions start playin lol

I aint taking sides or anything and I enjoy brother Ahmed and mquran and Kyle & Nabi's posts but I think HUMBLE is the key word and SINCERITY when it comes to learning and that applies to everyone and me too

PEACE

mquran

I have not read all of the posts so I may not be 100% informed, but from what I gather is that Ahmed has given me the label of "non Muslim". Some have engaged the brother in my defense. I appreciate the support.

Well Kyle, the way I see it, if you're not a Muslim, I can't be a muslim either.

Ahmed, if you are refering to the capitalized word "MUSLIM" which is used to denote someone who belongs to the Arabic religion of "Islam", then you are correct, I am not a "MUSLIM".

I'm not part of the pan-racist religious entity in the world known as 'islam' either. I am a muslim as per al-quraan.

But if you are referring to the description as used in this proclamation(quran) we are studying, then that would be lower case "muslim" meaning one who is peaceful (submissive to God's LAW).

In english, fair enough but in quranic language, we are called 'al-muslimeen'.

unknownuser

^^Well said Brother Kyle!

I'm only a spectator in all of this but brother Ahmed you need to be abit more understanding and sincere when it comes to learning from people. I'm not saying agree with everything someone says but don't put up a defense when someone tries to explain to you something as I think thats where most people error and emotions start playin lol

I aint taking sides or anything and I enjoy brother Ahmed and mquran and Kyle & Nabi's posts but I think HUMBLE is the key word and SINCERITY when it comes to learning and that applies to everyone and me too

PEACE

Thank you bro

I'm sorry bro you have missed what Kyle told me a while back, HE WAS THE ONE WHO ACCUSED ME OF BEING A HADITH FOLLOWER AND SAID HE DOES NOT DISCUSS MATTERS WITH SUCH ONES UNTIL THEY CHANGE THEIR VIEWS, ASK HIM PLEASE

see brother, your accusation to me was suppose to be directed at brother kyle

now I accepted and respected his decision and I told him that in response to his comment, but he didn't respect his descisoin and kept arguing with my comments despite it was not directed to him.

So you accused me of not being open to understand others while it may look like it but the fact is different, I also believe that kyle himself does the same regarding my opinions, the point bro is this, I'm settled on almost 95% of what I believe and I'm only here to give my opinion, if i start to hear other opinions that are not of a slight concern to me and may cause flaw and does not make sense I have to do what i have to do which give my opinion to the public then bail out, I DON'T HAVE TIME TO ARGUE WITH OTHERS AND THAT CAN BE CONSIDERED RESPECTING THEIR OPINIONS . WE JUST LEAVE IT TO GOD, BUT SOMEHOW THEY KEEP CHASING ME FOR COMMENTS, AND WHEN I DECIDE TO COMMENT I WILL COMMENT AS WHO I'M AND ACCORDING TO WHAT I BUILT IN MY MIND STEADLY AND STRONGLY FOR THE LAST 25 YEARS

Peace to all

unknownuser

I have not read all of the posts so I may not be 100% informed, but from what I gather is that Ahmed has given me the label of "non Muslim". Some have engaged the brother in my defense. I appreciate the support.

Well Kyle, the way I see it, if you're not a Muslim, I can't be a muslim either.

Ahmed, if you are refering to the capitalized word "MUSLIM" which is used to denote someone who belongs to the Arabic religion of "Islam", then you are correct, I am not a "MUSLIM".

I'm not part of the pan-racist religious entity in the world known as 'islam' either. I am a muslim as per al-quraan.

But if you are referring to the description as used in this proclamation(quran) we are studying, then that would be lower case "muslim" meaning one who is peaceful (submissive to God's LAW).

In english, fair enough but in quranic language, we are called 'al-muslimeen'.

ok, here is a question for you,

what is your religion?

i want an answer from the Quran please

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

I have not read all of the posts so I may not be 100% informed, but from what I gather is that Ahmed has given me the label of "non Muslim". Some have engaged the brother in my defense. I appreciate the support.

Ahmed, if you are refering to the capitalized word "MUSLIM" which is used to denote someone who belongs to the Arabic religion of "Islam", then you are correct, I am not a "MUSLIM".

But if you are referring to the description as used in this proclamation(quran) we are studying, then that would be lower case "muslim" meaning one who is peaceful (submissive to God's LAW).

In any case, I have never needed anyone to agree or disagree with my description, the God suffices as a witness.

Brother Ahmed, I would love to explain over and over again my position to you, but I am getting too mature in this way of life to continue doing so. There comes a point when we must understand that someone is just not ready to hear what you have to say. The heart must soften first.

I respectfully leave you to your accusations and give you the response of PEACE be upon you.

Peace bro

it seems you are the one who forgot

I asked you before are you a muslim and you said no but you didn't give me the above two possibilities when you answered

Also you accused me of being a hadith follower and also told me that you can't continue discussing matters with me because of that, and I accepeted your decision

Did you forget bro?

Peace be with you

Prince

Thank you bro

I'm sorry bro you have missed what Kyle told me a while back, HE WAS THE ONE WHO ACCUSED ME OF BEING A HADITH FOLLOWER AND SAID HE DOES NOT DISCUSS MATTERS WITH SUCH ONES UNTIL THEY CHANGE THEIR VIEWS, ASK HIM PLEASE

I see brother but whether you believe hadith or not I still talk to you with respect and sincerity but I guess its upto the individual whether they discuss anything but personally hadith believers are very close minded therefore its impossible discussing anything with them. I'm not in anyway implying your a hadith follower as thats something you can answer yourself.

see brother, your accusation to me was suppose to be directed at brother kyle

now I accepted and respected his decision and I told him that in response to his comment, but he didn't respect his descisoin and kept arguing with my comments despite it was not directed to him.

So you accused me of not being open to understand others while it may look like it but the fact is different, I also believe that kyle himself does the same regarding my opinions, the point bro is this, I'm settled on almost 95% of what I believe and I'm only here to give my opinion, if i start to hear other opinions that are not of a slight concern to me and may cause flaw and does not make sense I have to do what i have to do which give my opinion to the public then bail out, I DON'T HAVE TIME TO ARGUE WITH OTHERS AND THAT CAN BE CONSIDERED RESPECTING THEIR OPINIONS . WE JUST LEAVE IT TO GOD, BUT SOMEHOW THEY KEEP CHASING ME FOR COMMENTS, AND WHEN I DECIDE TO COMMENT I WILL COMMENT AS WHO I'M AND ACCORDING TO WHAT I BUILT IN MY MIND STEADLY AND STRONGLY FOR THE LAST 25 YEARS

Peace to all

Personally to me you can never stop learning. Learning in whatever fields is always progressive. As you said and I completely agree I don't have time to argue but I do have time to DISCUSS.

I think everyone hear can all agree that opinions are opinions but only opinions that are sound in knowledge and reason and is supported by Quran should be regarded as religious law.

I would love to see as you suggested before a debate on let's say Jesus having no father or other topics you don't agree on with members like Kyle or mquran with judges so to make the debate fair and most importantly without any arguing or negative personal comments. Whether you change your opinion at the end or not is upto you but the readers of the topic can choose the best advice or understanding and follow it as the Quran suggests to do.

PEACE

mquran

ok, here is a question for you,

what is your religion?

i want an answer from the Quran please

My deen is ad-deen inda Allah, which is Al-islaam (3/19). This means that I acknowledge and submit to al-kitaab.

unknownuser

ok, here is a question for you,

what is your religion?

i want an answer from the Quran please

My deen is ad-deen inda Allah, which is Al-islaam (3/19). This means that I acknowledge and submit to al-kitaab.

so Islam means submitting then?, also should Islam be the name of the Deen of Allah?

Jafar

Salam Brothers and Sisters...

ok, here is a question for you,

what is your religion?

i want an answer from the Quran please

What is 'religion' anyway?
How can u say or tell that person A and B belongs to the 'same religion' ?
Is it if
A and B belongs to the same occult?
A and B had the same 'set of beliefs' (Arab Aqidah, HebrewAqedah) ?
A and B looks, thinks and acts the same?

Or the question itself is out of context ?

Salam / Peace

unknownuser

Salam Brothers and Sisters...

ok, here is a question for you,

what is your religion?

i want an answer from the Quran please

What is 'religion' anyway?
How can u say or tell that person A and B belongs to the 'same religion' ?
Is it if
A and B belongs to the same occult?
A and B had the same 'set of beliefs' (Arab Aqidah, HebrewAqedah) ?
A and B looks, thinks and acts the same?

Or the question itself is out of context ?

Salam / Peace

Peace

Religion as I see it is simply being held accountable, it is exactly like taking loan from a bank and you have to pay it back later on, in fact the same ward "Deen" is used to describe something that is borrowed in the Arab world

Deen in faith, is a set of laws that we have to abide to, these laws are not yours or mine, they are God's laws in His preserved and last message called "The Quran",

if you read the Quran cover to cover, I'm sure you will be able to exract most of these laws then abide to it and if we do then when the time comes to pay our Deen back, hopfully there will not be too much interest THAT WE MUST PAY ON THE SPOT

Peace bro

Leyla

Peace

Ahmed

First of all, before going on with the debate, I would like to say should my language have ever slipped in a way non appropriate to you that this was not intentionally.
We are hopefully both not concerned about letting our ego rule here. I hope that discussions like that here in free minds can go on with only seeking for the truth. This, however, sometimes creates high emotional involvement.

so Islam means submitting then?,

Just because within the linguistic structure of modern English the word submission has no relation to the word peace that does not mean that the same applies to quranic Arabic.
This is why direct translations from one language to another are always a very problematic thing, even more so when applied to the explicit and direct word of All?h.

The conditioning that traditional hadithism did made this even more complicated. E.g. the word salawat can according to traditional hadithists both be translated as ritual prayers? and blessings?, depending on the context.
Only when truly diving within the internal structure of qur'?nic Arabic can we find out the true meaning here and see connections and disconnections that are neither present within modern English, nor in modern standard Arabic.

I never objected to your idea that isl?m has meanings of submission. And I am sure brother mquran also never did so.
What I only object to is your claim that the word has no relation to sal?m (meaning peace), a claim just outright wrong in my opinion.

Actually, while in English the two terms establishment of peace? and submission? may be two unrelated terms (though still with related meanings!, as I pointed out to you in a previous post) this is not the case when understanding the relevance of isl?m.
The same problem with translation often happens vice versa.
E.g. al Fatir and al Khaliq are often both in English translated as one word "the Creator". However, we do know that these terms have no linguostic relation to each other.
Rather, Fatir has a linguistic relation to fitrah and Khaliq has a relation to
khalq.
This relation established through the identity of the root to which are applied different grammatical patterns.
This is what I was constantly talking about in my previous posts.
Do you really think that such a system does not exist within Arabic?

Deen in faith, is a set of laws that we have to abide to, these laws are not yours or mine, they are God's laws in His preserved and last message called "The Quran"

I am happy to hear that earnestly you try to find out what the laws of All?h are and that you want to follow them.

But I would say that in my humble opinion one can not see a verse in the qur'?n that simply describes the d?n with All?h as a set of creeds, aka faith.
Im?n is not isl?m in the qur'?n.
This yu know yourself.
Sure conviction of certain principles (like All?h, his malaika, his books and his messengers) is where im?n comes in (see e.g. 2/285).
This is what it is about to be a mu`min.
Not what it is about to be a muslim, I would opine.

Furthermore, even im?n is not just about creeds. The phrase alladhina amanu? in the qur'?n is constantly used in concert with wa amilu-s-salihati?. True im?n will show its fruts in actions.
When you want to judge if the im?n of a person is true or just a bragging claim the only thing you can do is look at his actions.

Apart from that, there is not much for us to judge. You are right, there is a time when we have to pay the d?n back.
And then not only deeds will be judged but also what is hidden in our breast.
But we humans can not form a judgement on intentions or creeds. only on actions.

peace again,

Leyla

unknownuser

Peace

Ahmed

First of all, before going on with the debate, I would like to say should my language have ever slipped in a way non appropriate to you that this was not intentionally.

Peace Leyla

Thanks and to be honest that is what I felt, but I appreciate you cleared it out

We are hopefully both not concerned about letting our ego rule here.

I can only confirm my side that sure this is my case

I hope that discussions like that here in free minds can go on with only seeking for the truth. This, however, sometimes creates high emotional involvement.

See, any religious discussions most likely will heat up, i don't know why, possibly it is a human nature, every religious discussion I have with my father on the phone, MUST heat up somehow

so Islam means submitting then?,

Just because within the linguistic structure of modern English the word submission has no relation to the word peace that does not mean that the same applies to quranic Arabic.

I'm not talking modern English neither modern Arabic, I'm talking classic Arabic "Lugha Fusha" that is taught in all schools at all stages in all Arabic Country, this Arabic called Literary Arabic is also the Arabic of the Quran, and I posted numerous verses and you never refuted ANY OF THEM, you just told me they were irrelevant and that is a contradiction by you if the objective is to study the verses of the Quran not to study our feelings, emotions and personal views, while I agree that personal views will also be part of understanding the Quran verses the matter can be resolved between different opinions by using the Quran still

so in Literary Arabic "Salam" or "Silm" means "Peace" and the word was used in the Quran to mean Peace within the context, now whenever the word "Aslam" or "Islam" or ?Aslamo? appeared in the Quran to refer to the religion or talking about something that relates to Allah, THE CONTEXT MEANT ONLY ONE THING which is to submit to Allah, to prove me wrong you have to refute all the verses I posted and show us how the word means "peace" within the context of each verse

This is why direct translations from one language to another are always a very problematic thing, even more so when applied to the explicit and direct word of All?h.

And that is why I don't translate from one language to another as I don?t need, I'm only trying to help the non Arabic speakers brothers and sisters, nothing more, I speak Arabic for 40 years and I read the Quran in Arabic not in English , in fact I will be stupid if I read in English for myself

I never objected to your idea that isl?m has meanings of submission. And am sure brother mquran also never did so.

Well, I guess you maybe right, but neither you nor Mquran refuted the many verses I posted more than once, Mquran turned a blind eye and you said they are irrelevant WHILE THE LOGIC SAYS THE VERSES CAN NOT BE IRRELEVANT because that is what we all here to discuss the verses of the Quran, and the verses I brough on the table are all about the religion of ?Islam? as it was described in the Quran

What I only object to is your claim that the word has no relation to sal?m (meaning peace), a claim just outright wrong in my opinion.

see, there is a confusion here

I mean the two words have no relation whatsoever regarding their meanings, because one means ?Peace? and the ?Other? means ?Submission?

On the other hand, I agree that they share the root, but let me tell you sister the root is the one that is irrelevant here, not the verses of the Quran, I can assure you that I NEVER WAS TAUGHT AS SCHOOLS TO USE THE ROOT TO GET A MEANING OF ANY ARABIC WORD, Arabic words are independent from each other even if they sahre the same root, for example Prophet Solaiman name also share the same root with ?Peace? and ?Submission? also the word ?Salim? which means ?not broken? share the same root with them and it is also a common male name, another word is like this ?Musallam? which means ?Known? and again share the same root, ?Salmah? is another female name, the word ?Sillim? which mean ?Ladder? share the same root sister, see, I can keep remembering many other Arabic words that share the same root ? S L M? for possibly 5 hours and I will get you a list of at least 50 words, just kiddin sister, but I hopr you get my point that the words meaning are independent of each other along with the root even if they share the same root

Actually, while in English the two terms establishment of peace? and submission? may be two unrelated terms (though still with related meanings!, as I pointed out to you in a previous post) this is not the case when understanding the relevance of isl?m.

I?m sorry sister, Submission can not be the same as ?Establishment of Peace? because sometimes to establish peace you need to go to horrible wars and yet peace could not be established, on the other you are missing a huge point in here sister and I hope you pay attention

Islam as an independent word means submission in power and I showed you an example in the verses I posted that shows Solayman asking the Queen of Sheba to submit in power

Islam word as the name of the religion of Allah means only one thing, TO SUBMIT TO ALLAH, not to any human

Do you get it this time sister?

The same problem with translation often happens vice versa.
E.g. al Fatir and al Khaliq are often both in English translated as one word "the Creator". However, we do know that these terms have no linguostic relation to each other.
Rather, Fatir has a linguistic relation to fitrah and Khaliq has a relation to
khalq.
This relation established through the identity of the root to which are applied different grammatical patterns.
This is what I was constantly talking about in my previous posts.
Do you really think that such a system does not exist within Arabic?

Well the system may exist BUT IT IS NOT USED IN DETERMINIG THE MEANING OF THE WORDS, as sinple as this sister, I WS NEVER TAUGHT THIS AT SCHOOLS REALLY and what I studied for years is the Literary Arabic, ?Lugha Arabia Fusha?, the same Arabic structure of the Quran, and the official language to all Arabic nations and is the language all Arabic nations teach at their schools at all stages

Deen in faith, is a set of laws that we have to abide to, these laws are not yours or mine, they are God's laws in His preserved and last message called "The Quran"

I am happy to hear that earnestly you try to find out what the laws of All?h are and that you want to follow them.

good sister, but there two notes please, 1) I started doing this 25 years ago, 2) I?m following them Be Iznoh, NOT that I want to follow them

But I would say that in my humble opinion one can not see a verse in the qur'?n that simply describes the d?n with All?h as a set of creeds, aka faith.
Im?n is not isl?m in the qur'?n.
This yu know yourself.
Sure conviction of certain principles (like All?h, his malaika, his books and his messengers) is where im?n comes in (see e.g. 2/285).
This is what it is about to be a mu`min.
Not what it is about to be a muslim, I would opine.

Did you read my comment sister?

Because if you did, you should know that this is what I said exactly, far out sister

Furthermore, even im?n is not just about creeds. The phrase alladhina amanu? in the qur'?n is constantly used in concert with wa amilu-s-salihati?. True im?n will show its fruts in actions.

The condition is this, sister

For the Amal Saliha to be accepted we must be believers first, being Muslims that is a highest level a believer can achieve, therefore all prophets must have been Muslims, ie. they truly submitted to Allah

When you want to judge if the im?n of a person is true or just a bragging claim the only thing you can do is look at his actions.

Sister, Judging is to Allah only, and as you know Judging MUST BE ACCOMPANIED WITH A VERDICT AND A PENALTY/REWARD, and because what can do this here, therefore what we do is not judgment, they are mere opinions

Apart from that, there is not much for us to judge. You are right, there is a time when we have to pay the d?n back.

that is right sister

And then not only deeds will be judged but also what is hidden in our breast.

well I?m not sure about this sister, do you have a supporting verse from the Quran?

Peace

Ahmed

DCS123

And then not only deeds will be judged but also what is hidden in our breast.

well I?m not sure about this sister, do you have a supporting verse from the Quran?

Peace

Ahmed

And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate. (2235)

O you who believe! Do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand. Lo! you are they who will love them while they do not love you, and you believe in the Book (in) the whole of it; and when they meet you they say We believe, and when they are alone, they bite the ends of their fingers in rage against you. Say Die in your rage; surely Allah knows what is in the breasts. If good befalls you, it grieves them, and if an evil afflicts you, they rejoice at it; and if you are patient and guard yourselves, their scheme will not injure you in any way; surely Allah comprehends what they do. (3118-120)

Leyla

Peace Ahmed

so in Literary Arabic "Salam" or "Silm" means "Peace" and the word was used in the Quran to mean Peace within the context, now whenever the word "Aslam" or "Islam" or ?Aslamo? appeared in the Quran to refer to the religion or talking about something that relates to Allah, THE CONTEXT MEANT ONLY ONE THING which is to submit to Allah, to prove me wrong you have to refute all the verses I posted and show us how the word means "peace" within the context of each verse

I agree that context matters a lot.
I also agree that isl?m is not equal to sal?m.
I never said that isl?m means peace.
Please look at my exact formulation.
So, of course I agree that you can not substitute the word isl?m with meaning of sal?m here!
See, I did say that your post of verses was not attached to what I was saying.
I do not need to prove you wrong here because that was not what I was discussing about.
I fully agree here.

I do not say that isl?m means peace. I do say, however, that it is related to it. And that it can be translated as establishment of peace?. I will repeat my point here To give you my deduction I gave you the example of salah and islah to show you the meaning of this grammatical construction. Salah can be translated as what is constructive, good?, it has the same root as salih?. Islah? then means to establish what is constructive?, also translated as reform?.

Exactly same grammatical pattern is used in the relation between isl?m? and sal?m? Yes, isl?m and sal?m are not the same. You are right.
However, the grammatical pattern shows that isl?m is the establishment of peace?, also translated as submission?
(Submission always means the establishment of peace. Submission means to voluntarily stop fighting.)

Of course the context is in the qur'?n always submission/establishment of peace with All?h`s laws.
When everyone submits to these laws within a society, we in effect have total peace.

Arabic words are independent from each other even if they sahre the same root, for example Prophet Solaiman name also share the same root with ?Peace? and ?Submission? also the word ?Salim? which means ?not broken? share the same root with them and it is also a common male name, another word is like this ?Musallam? which means ?Known? and again share the same root, ?Salmah? is another female name, the word ?Sillim? which mean ?Ladder? share the same root sister, see, I can keep remembering many other Arabic words that share the same root ? S L M? for possibly 5 hours and I will get you a list of at least 50 words, just kiddin sister, but I hopr you get my point that the words meaning are independent of each other along with the root even if they share the same root

The point is, brother, that all these words have a shared internal meaning. It is just not apparent when you translate it into English.
Every qualified linguist will agree here.
E.g. salim? means, not broken, whole?. When you have a community that is not broken, you have peace. When your relationship to All?h is not broken, you submit to Him, you have established peace with Him.
Peace is the state of `wholeness, unbrokenness?.
The relation is clear from Arabic, though not from English translation.

The root is not irrelevant here.
Arabic derives meaning from roots and roots are used to derive meaning.

good sister, but there two notes please, 1) I started doing this 25 years ago, 2) I?m following them Be Iznoh, NOT that I want to follow them

Good for you, but I can neither prove nor disprove that. Until now it is just a claim for me. I could only do that when personally knowing you and looking at your actions for some time.
So, I can not say if you are a non muslim or a muslim, a hypocrite or not.
Neither should you say about others here (kyle, joe, mquran) who really struggle to understand the qur'?nic message.

Did you read my comment sister?

Because if you did, you should know that this is what I said exactly, far out sister

Of course I did read your comment, however, I got a different impression from it.
Please correct me

You used the phrase d?n in faith, thus connecting the d?n of isl?m with im?n. However, I would say that this is contradictory to not confusing im?n with isl?m.

One can be a muslim without having im?n, as verse 49/14 clearly shows.
You also equated the term religion with the term d?n.
However, in common understanding religion is about faith. Isl?m, however, is not simply about having im?n.
Again, 49/14 clearly shows this.

You can be a muslim without having im?n in malaika, kutub etc..

The condition is this, sister

For the Amal Saliha to be accepted we must be believers first, being Muslims that is a highest level a believer can achieve, therefore all prophets must have been Muslims, ie. they truly submitted to Allah

Here I largely agree with you again.
You have to be muslin to be a mu'min and im?n will make our actions solid and accepted by All?h.
Though it is according to the qur'?n wrong to say that being a muslim is the highest level a believer can achive.
Again, look at 49/14.
You can be a muslim without having im?n.

Sister, Judging is to Allah only, and as you know Judging MUST BE ACCOMPANIED WITH A VERDICT AND A PENALTY/REWARD, and because what can do this here, therefore what we do is not judgment, they are mere opinions

Good. Then we agree. I just simply got a very different impression when reading your comments on the brothers.

well I?m not sure about this sister, do you have a supporting verse from the Quran?

Not in direct words. No.
What I meant was
Only All?h knows what is in our breasts.
And I am sure that you agree here.

So,let?s just assume someone does something that looks good on the outside e.g. giving a certain amount of money to poors.
And he claims that he does so out of believe in All?h.

However, it is quite possible that this was only a claim and that he gave the money out of egoistic reasons to brag and that he does not really believe in All?h, right?
This is what only All?h can judge because only He knows what is truly in our mindes and what our intentions truly are.

Thanks to DCS 123 for the verses here!

peace again,

Leyla