what in the devil's name is 666?
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Peace
Apple Pie, the truth is not about what's in the bible or the quran, but what we can verify as truth based on the laws of this universe. The bible and the quran, or any other book for that matter, can be used as guidance. They can lead us to the truth. But the truth itself is manifest in the world surrounding us. If something, in any book, goes against this world (that God created) then its not true.
Does this mean that you take the Holy Bible as Universal truth...?
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Peace be upon you Aple Pie,
IF1
It has nothing to do with FEELING, but everything to do with verification and reflection. Sticks dont turn into snakes, seas dont split, men dont fit all the animals in a boat, men dont live in whales bellies, men dont bring the literal dead to life, etc etc etc.AP
And?.these are all things mentioned in your book of faith?I dont have a book of faith except the universe itself, which includes all signs.
Then why quote from the Koran if the Universe is all that what matters to you?.?
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Again?pick a specific example and show us exactly where the metaphor comes into play?Better yet, go throw a stick and see if it turns into a snake, then tell me where metaphor does not come into play
I have explained many of the metaphors all over this forum, please have a look.
Please explain to us why the authors of the Koran copied this Biblical ?metaphor??and specifically what it means to you?.
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IF1
I acknowledge that the WILL in man is that which "saves" him, that is what the story of Isa, son of Miram teaches as well as the Story of Ausar, where Heru (where we get Hero) represented the WILL that was born from Auset as a virgin birth, WAAAAAAAY before any Bible.Waaaaay before the authors of the Koran copied it?.
And what does that say about the Bible in regards of "copying"? Please stop tip toeing around it and be straightfoward.
This tells us that you would have to establish your assertion based upon the original languages such as I have always done?
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IF1
The WILL of man is a part of being, not the WHOLE of Being(God). When you stop blindly believing in people that have no evidence historically, then you will start to understand, then you wont want to fight others whose nature is PEACE, what is your nature?AP
Then when will you stop believing in Islam?s ?prophet? who has no historical evidence?.?If you took a moment to be receptive and listen instead of trying to impose religion on others, you would know that I dont support any prophet Muhammad. Many people on here constantly debate me on this issue. Thou shalt not bear false witness, remember? You see, I am fair and equal with my statements, no proof of Jesus, no proof of Muhammad.
This is great to hear? wink
However with you its 'Koran is a copy" but Bible somehow skips that attribute.
The Koran makes this statement repeatedly about itself.
If you ever bothered to study the classic Arabic, in which it was written, then you would be cognizant of this already.
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Nor is he even mentioned in your book of faith.If you mean Muhammad,then yes, I agree. Muhammad only means someone who posesses "hamd".
Exactly?
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IF1
Are we reading the same thing? The verse says that EACH PERSON, before thier death must trust in the WILL(isa), and when we are at the final judgement, the WILL will be a testifier against us.AP
I?m reading the classic Arabic?.how about you?.?I'm reading the translation I just gave you.
Which is not classic Arabic?.but a second-hand English translation of which you have not verified yourself?.obviously? roll
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AP
If you were going to show the context of your initial ?proof text?, then why did you skip completely over 4.158??4.158 completely and utterly erases what is said in 4.157.
We have already covered this ground in other threads.
(415 But The God rose him (Isa) to Him, and The God is glorious/mighty , wise/judicious.
The God is the DIVINE within you, we raise the WILL up to the divine so that we CHOOSE what the God wills, otherwise we might use the WILL for wicked purposes. We must die of the animal at the crossroads, as 4157's true metaphor was speaking of.
Tell us of your understanding of the Arabic word ?bal??.? shock
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IF1
The Bible says that Jesus said "And you shall do greater things than me", or something of that nature, please explain what that means.AP
Give us the verse?If you want to know what it says at least have the common courtesy to be cognizant of where it came from?
John 1412 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
Joh 1410 Believest4100 thou not3756 that3754 I1473 am in1722 the3588 Father,3962 and2532 the3588 Father3962 in1722 me?1698 the3588 words4487 that3739 I1473 speak2980 unto you5213 I speak2980 not3756 of575 myself1683 but1161 the3588 Father3962 that dwelleth3306 in1722 me,1698 he846 doeth4160 the3588 works.2041
Joh 1411 Believe4100 me3427 that3754 I1473 am in1722 the3588 Father,3962 and2532 the3588 Father3962 in1722 me1698 or else1490 believe4100 me3427 for the very works' sake.1223, 3588, 846, 2041
Joh 1412 Verily,281 verily,281 I say3004 unto you,5213 He that believeth4100 on1519 me,1691 the3588 works2041 that3739 I1473 do4160 shall he do also;2548, 4160 and2532 greater3187 works than these5130 shall he do;4160 because3754 I1473 go4198 unto4314 my3450 Father.3962
Joh 1413 And2532 whatsoever3748, 302 ye shall ask154 in1722 my3450 name,3686 that5124 will I do,4160 that2443 the3588 Father3962 may be glorified1392 in1722 the3588 Son.5207
Context shows that Jesus and God are One.
Just as declared in the Koran?.that you slavishly quote from?
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IF1
The Jesus you are talking about, well I wont say he is dead cause I have no evidence that he lived. The WILL of most men is slumbering, needs to be awakened.AP
Your book of faith said that He lived?.and that He lives now?and that He is God Almighty.Once again, I dont have a book of faith, but a Universe of Knowledge. The book called Koran that you are speaking of is full of metaphorical stories, just like the Bible.
Interesting that you claim no book of faith?.and then turn right around and constantly quote from it to buttress your position?
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AP
Perhaps, when you realize this, you will begin to see that the authors who penned your book of faith understood that Jesus is God Almighty.IF1
That doesnt seem to add up to the folowing.(517) Rejectors indeed are those who said "Surely The God, He is the Messiah Mary's son." ...
AP
If it does not add up, then start studying the classic Arabic that you are entrusting your eternal soul towards.I dont rely on faith, but knowledge. Do you care to elaborate on the error you see? I hope you will not start giving me empty responses like this one.
It appears that you just now (again) relied on this out-of-context Koranic passage to somehow ?prove? a point of yours?
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Also, stop taking your ?proof-texts? out of context.When you do these two things, then you will be cognizant of what you must believe in as truth?
Examples please.
4.159?.
Have you already forgotten?.?
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Lastly, for the record, I dont have a book of faith except the universe itself. So when you debate with me, be prepared to look before the Bible, that copying this and that stuff wont stand up over here. Try that on those who dont know.Then?.is it safe to say that the Koran is meaningless to you??
No, it is very meaningful, even so the Bible, and the Book of coming forth by day, etc etc, but I dont blindly believe any of them.
But?..you slavishly keep right on quoting from the Koran to ?prove? your point?
What logic is this??
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Isa is indeed the savior, because Isa represents the WILL of man, that is born of the PURE MIND removed from tradition (what your fathers followed blindly). When you have no WILL, you are asleep, dead, just following the blind emotions.
Jesus is not only the Savior of mankind (like you already acknowledge), but He is God Almighty...like your book of faith proclaims...
There is no need for a saviour. There is no saviour of mankind because mankind is not born with sin. He is born clean and elevates himself through his deeds or debases himself through his deeds.
One saves themselves through good deeds, by praying for guidance and following the truth always.
No one can bear the burden of another. That's the message of truth.
Jesus is not dead...of which is acknowledged even by your book of faith.
Jesus is dead.
Perhaps, when you realize this, you will begin to see that the authors who penned your book of faith understood that Jesus is God Almighty.
What is most amusing about this is that prior to the idea of a man named Jeezus and the nonsense doctrine that has since been invented about him how were the people before him "saved" (in your paradigm).
How about Moses for example, is Moses' failure of belief in the doctrines of Athanasius and other devils like him going to mean he is not "saved". Or did Moses accept Jeezus and the devillish doctrines of trinity?
Apple Pie, you just have to accept that your paradigm of being born a worthless, evil, no good, sinner is not shared by us.
We are born without sin and become what we become. We have no need for saviours. You have to realise that your paradigm is false.
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Also the Quran confirmed that Jesus is dead
peace
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Isa is indeed the savior, because Isa represents the WILL of man, that is born of the PURE MIND removed from tradition (what your fathers followed blindly). When you have no WILL, you are asleep, dead, just following the blind emotions.
Jesus is not only the Savior of mankind (like you already acknowledge), but He is God Almighty...like your book of faith proclaims...
There is no need for a saviour.
That is not what your book of faith states?
There is no saviour of mankind because mankind is not born with sin. He is born clean and elevates himself through his deeds or debases himself through his deeds.
Again?.this is not what your book of faith states?
All mankind is fallen...just as stated in Holy Bible, and later copied into the Koran.
If you were not in the fallen state, then you would, at this moment, be residing in Eden?of which you are not?thus, you are paying for the original sin just like the rest of us.
One saves themselves through good deeds, by praying for guidance and following the truth always.
False.
Not even your Koran states this?
No one can bear the burden of another. That's the message of truth.
We don?t carry the sins of others humans?however, we do carry the original sin.
Please tell us why we are not in the garden right now?.if we are not carrying the original sin??
Apple Pie wrote
Jesus is not dead...of which is acknowledged even by your book of faith.
Jesus is dead.
Not what your Koran states?
Apple Pie wrote
Perhaps, when you realize this, you will begin to see that the authors who penned your book of faith understood that Jesus is God Almighty.
What is most amusing about this is that prior to the idea of a man named Jeezus and the nonsense doctrine that has since been invented about him how were the people before him "saved" (in your paradigm).
How about Moses for example, is Moses' failure of belief in the doctrines of Athanasius and other devils like him going to mean he is not "saved". Or did Moses accept Jeezus and the devillish doctrines of trinity?
Salvation has always remained the same.
Salvation is through obedience to the Creator God of the Universe.
People in OT times achieved Salvation by abiding by Yahweh?s commandments.
People in NT times achieve Salvation by acknowledging that Jesus is Lord.
Either way, Salvation is obtained by obedience to the Word of God.
Muslims, on the other hand, can?t comprehend the Biblical scriptures from whence their book of faith was constructed, thus, Islam has interpreted the translated Biblical scriptures for them and mandated that they somehow must ?earn? their Salvation, as they pray to a previous pagan Arab serpent/moon god that has been cloaked with Biblical deity, previously ascribed unto Jesus Himself. o
Apple Pie, you just have to accept that your paradigm of being born a worthless, evil, no good, sinner is not shared by us.
Perhaps, when Islam no longer has a death-grip over your thoughts, you will actually begin to study the classic Arabic that comprises the book that you are entrusting your eternal soul towards?
We are born without sin and become what we become. We have no need for saviours. You have to realise that your paradigm is false.
If you were born without sin, then you should be in the Garden right now.
Why are you not in the garden??
Why are you outside the Garden just like your original parents ? who were expelled outside the garden??
You carry the Original sin.
Wake up.
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peace apple pie,
can you please explain why would God punish us for someone else's sins?
Who said that it was someone elses sin...?
We are in this together.
Mankind as a whole.
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Again?.this is not what your book of faith states?
All mankind is fallen...just as stated in Holy Bible, and later copied into the Koran.
Mankind has always been on earth/land since his creation 230.
The garden is an elevated state of mind attained through peace and obedience to the God.
Just as those humans lived on the earth/land so do we. There was no mythical place from which they "fell".
They were debased individually because of their act. Their "descent" was in the state of mind and bliss they were in.
You may, as I do sometimes feel as if I am in 'heaven' here on earth. When that is broken you may also experience that descent into a lower state of mind due to breaking of the peace and disobedience.
If you were not in the fallen state, then you would, at this moment, be residing in Eden?of which you are not?thus, you are paying for the original sin just like the rest of us.
A state which is in one's individual mind.
You and all your Christian brethren may feel in that fallen state because you are trapped in your false paradigm.
The importance of deeds is in one of the shortest chapters of the reading. Witness...
1031 By the ages.
1032 The human being is utterly lost.
1033 Except those who believe and lead a righteous life, and exhort one another to uphold the truth, and exhort one another to be steadfast.We are told that the essence of that belief is belief in the One God; and belief in the accountability you face for your actions (the Last Day).
No one can bear the burden of another. That's the message of truth.
We don?t carry the sins of others humans?however, we do carry the original sin.
There is a logical falsehood in what you say.
I agree that no human can bear the burden of another. But I don't recognise what this "original sin" is. Was "Adam" born with the original sin also or did he commit it?
If he committed it then it is his sin is it not? And being something he did then it cannot be the sin of any other human.
So if no human can bear the burden of another human then we cannot bear the burden of "Adam" if he was a human.
The paradigm of "original sin" is patently false.
Please tell us why we are not in the garden right now?.if we are not carrying the original sin??
You can be in the 'garden' right now if you wanted. You keep yourself out.
Salvation has always remained the same.
Salvation is through obedience to the Creator God of the Universe.
I know that attaining the goal has always been the same for every human and my beliefs are consistent with that; whereas even your admission in the next section that there is a difference in OT times and NT times accedes that it was not the same creating another logical problem for you.
So if we replace 'salvation' by 'attaining the award' then I agree with both the statements above as long as we mean ONE Creator God.
People in OT times achieved Salvation by abiding by Yahweh?s commandments.
People in NT times achieve Salvation by acknowledging that Jesus is Lord.
A difference, when you had agreed that it was the same for all humans.
The God is a completely just and fair you would agree. There will be no excuse a human should be able to give to show another human had an advantage over them. So a person in the OT time, and one in the NT time may argue that the requirements for their counterpart were easier or more dificult as the case may be - and argue that had they been born at another time they might have succeeded.
Whereas I believe it was the same for every single person ever born including Isa.
The paradigm you hold has many holes and failures such as this. Why would the God suddenly change character like what you propose? Does this not betray to you that what you believe is human originated doctrine that is ever changing and subject to whims and desires?
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Very well put Oben
the bible itself said no human carry the burden of another
peace bro
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Again?.this is not what your book of faith states?
All mankind is fallen...just as stated in Holy Bible, and later copied into the Koran.
Mankind has always been on earth/land since his creation 230.
As stated in Genesis?
The garden is an elevated state of mind attained through peace and obedience to the God.
What is your scriptural basis for this assertion??
Just as those humans lived on the earth/land so do we. There was no mythical place from which they "fell".
Who ever said that the Garden of Eden was a ?mythical? place?
Genesis clearly gives us a geographical topology.
They were debased individually because of their act. Their "descent" was in the state of mind and bliss they were in.
Please show us a scriptural basis for your assertion that the fall was ?a state of mind?.
You may, as I do sometimes feel as if I am in 'heaven' here on earth. When that is broken you may also experience that descent into a lower state of mind due to breaking of the peace and disobedience.
Why would I feel that ?Heaven is here on Earth???
Apple Pie wrote
If you were not in the fallen state, then you would, at this moment, be residing in Eden?of which you are not?thus, you are paying for the original sin just like the rest of us.
A state which is in one's individual mind.
You and all your Christian brethren may feel in that fallen state because you are trapped in your false paradigm.
You just side-stepped the question.
Why are you not living in the Paradise (mental or physical) from which your original parents were expelled from??
The fact that you are here with everyone else proves that you are partaking in the Original Sin that they committed?otherwise you would be in the ?mental bliss?, that you want Paradise to be?
The importance of deeds is in one of the shortest chapters of the reading. Witness...
1031 By the ages.
1032 The human being is utterly lost.
1033 Except those who believe and lead a righteous life, and exhort one another to uphold the truth, and exhort one another to be steadfast.We are told that the essence of that belief is belief in the One God; and belief in the accountability you face for your actions (the Last Day).
Most excellent.
You just gave us a sura that was fully exegeted in the Christian section, along with sura 81, and sura 100 ? all of which are 100% Biblical Book of Revelation material.
By the way, thanks for recommending that your very own Koranic material be placed in the Christian section. After all?this is what it is?
You can find the sura 103 exegesis here?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=69488#69488
Unfortunately, your Khalifa knock-off rendering does little to tell us of its source, nor of the Arabic behind the rendering.
This entire sura was copied from Revelation chapter 14.
WaalAAasri
103.1 And/by the time during which peoples pass away and become extinct.
Inna al-insana lafee khusrin
103.2 Certainly the human is in punishment for sin.
Illa allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati watawasaw bialhaqqi watawasaw bialssabri
103.3 Except whom they believed and they did the righteous deeds, and bequeathed one another on account of the truth, and bequeathed one another on account of the patience.
Feel free to read the entire exegesis?here is a snapshot of what you must believe as truth?
wde h upomonh twn agiwn estin oi thrountes tas entolas tou qeou kai thn pistin ihsou
Rev 14.12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are the ones keeping the commands of God, and the truth of Jesus.
kai hkousa fwnhs ek tou ouranou legoushs grayon makarioi oi nekroi oi en kuriw apoqnhskontes ap arti nai legei to pneuma ina anapahsontai ek twn kopwn autwn ta gar erga autwn akolouqei met autwn
Rev 14.13 And I heard a voice out of Heaven saying to me, Write Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Lord from now. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.
Pay special attention to what is stated?
Revelation is quite clear. A person?s ?ergon?, or deeds, follow ? or lag after them ? not before them.
If you take the time to exegete the Arabic (that you are entrusting your eternal soul towards...dubious that you will), then you would discover that sura 103 is stating the very same thing by the prolific usage of the perfect tense of the words in 103.3.
The prefect tense explicitly refers to completed action.
Not what you are doing, or what you are going to do?.but what already has been done.
Thus, deeds, while important, are not going to get you into Heaven.
Now?.what is going to get you into Heaven??
As it is, the same sura 103 tells us how.
The first thing mentioned (for the ones achieving Salvation) in 103.3 is to have a belief.
A belief in the Truth, and a belief in the Patience.
? Observe what has just taken place
A. The Koranic account twice proclaims the divinity of Jesus by identically mimicking the assertion of the Truth; i.e. ?alhaqqi? ( a name of ?allah?) as directly compared to the Truth ?pist is? of Jesus as proclaimed in Revelation
B. Jesus is the Truth
C. ?allah? is the truth
D. The Koranic account again proclaims the divinity of Jesus by identically mimicking the assertion of ?alsabri?, or the patience, as directly compared to the ?hupomone?, or patience of the ?hagios?, or most holy/saints as proclaimed in Revelation
E. Jesus is the patience
F. ?allah? is the patienceIt is crystal clear.
Not only did your sura 103 example come straight out of the Book of Revelation, but the classic Arabic clearly states that Salvation is first achieved through a belief in deity (i.e. originally applied to Jesus...then later copied to ?allah?).
Secondly, Salvation is achieved through the good deeds that you do after your belief in Jesus.
Here is Salvation from your very own book of faith?
? Belief in Jesus
? Good deeds FOLLOW you?not PRECEDE youYou cannot work your way into heaven.
Period.
Apple Pie wrote
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No one can bear the burden of another. That's the message of truth.We don?t carry the sins of others humans?however, we do carry the original sin.
There is a logical falsehood in what you say.
I agree that no human can bear the burden of another. But I don't recognise what this "original sin" is. Was "Adam" born with the original sin also or did he commit it?
Sin existed before the creation of Adam & Eve.
Satan was the first to sin.
Sin was then imputed into mankind in the Garden.
If he committed it then it is his sin is it not? And being something he did then it cannot be the sin of any other human.
So if no human can bear the burden of another human then we cannot bear the burden of "Adam" if he was a human.
The genealogy contained in Genesis chapter 5 tells us why we are all sinners.
The paradigm of "original sin" is patently false.
It is clear that the Adamic story has its roots in the Book of Genesis, where it is clear that Adam sinned and all offspring are sinners.
Additionally, the zaboor proclaims that we are born into sin.
Apple Pie wrote
Please tell us why we are not in the garden right now?.if we are not carrying the original sin??
You can be in the 'garden' right now if you wanted. You keep yourself out.
Show us a scriptural basis for this assertion?
Apple Pie wrote
Salvation has always remained the same.
Salvation is through obedience to the Creator God of the Universe.
I know that attaining the goal has always been the same for every human and my beliefs are consistent with that; whereas even your admission in the next section that there is a difference in OT times and NT times accedes that it was not the same creating another logical problem for you.
There can be no logic issue with obeying the Creator God of the Universe.
So if we replace 'salvation' by 'attaining the award' then I agree with both the statements above as long as we mean ONE Creator God.
What would be your scriptural basis for the word substitution?.?
Apple Pie wrote
People in OT times achieved Salvation by abiding by Yahweh?s commandments.
People in NT times achieve Salvation by acknowledging that Jesus is Lord.
A difference, when you had agreed that it was the same for all humans.
Obedience is obedience.
What part of obedience do you disagree with?.?
The God is a completely just and fair you would agree. There will be no excuse a human should be able to give to show another human had an advantage over them. So a person in the OT time, and one in the NT time may argue that the requirements for their counterpart were easier or more dificult as the case may be - and argue that had they been born at another time they might have succeeded.
Whereas I believe it was the same for every single person ever born including Isa.
The paradigm you hold has many holes and failures such as this. Why would the God suddenly change character like what you propose? Does this not betray to you that what you believe is human originated doctrine that is ever changing and subject to whims and desires?
Again?what part of obedience do you disagree with?.?
Salvation is the same.
Obedience to God.
Since you are having difficulty separating Islam from your book of faith, perhaps this Adamic summary will help clarify your Biblical origins?
- What material Adam was created from
Dust 3.59
Earth 11.61; 18.37; 22.5; 30.19; 35.11; 40.67
Loam 23.12
Nothing 19.67
Water 22.5; 23.13-14; 25.54; 40.67; 71.14; 75.37-38; 96.2 - The formation of the first Human Being 7.11; 15.29; 32.9; 38.72; 40.67; 64.3; 82.7-8
- The original appearance of Adam 95.4-6
- Adam's choice 3.33
- Adam names everything 2.30-33
- Worship of Adam. Satan's Fall 2.34; 7.11; 15.28-38; 17.61; 1850; 20.116; 38.71-82
- Satan's profession 4.118-119; 7.16-17; 14.22; 15.39-43; 17.62-65; 36.60-62; 38.83-84
- The creation of Eve 4.1; 7.189; 30.21; 39.6; 42.11
- Allah gives Adam the interdiction 2.35; 7.19
- The constitution of the prohibited tree 23.20; 24.35; 95.1-2
- Allah's covenant with Adam 20.115
- Allah exhorts Adam 20.116-119
- Seduction by Satan 7.20-21,27; 20.120
- The fall of man 7.22-23; 20.121
- The curse 2.36; 7.24-25; 20.55; 22.66
- Adam's repentance and restitution 2.37; 7.23; 20.122
- Eve's pregnancy. The fall of the first human beings 7.189
- Expulsion from paradise 2.36; 7.24; 20.123
(Ref Light of life)
Sound familiar?..?
Looks like you need to become more cognizant of what your Koran teaches instead of what Islam is force-feeding you?.
Take care?
- What material Adam was created from
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peace Apple Pie,
You would be correct if everything in the quran and bible was literal. But, alas, its not.
Please show us how your reasoning applies to the example given in the three ayahs of sura 103... wink
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peace,
I think that surah simply states that the people who sin will be punished, except for those who believe and do good deeds. I don't think it means mankind as a whole is being punished because of the 'original sin.'
Believe in what....?
Good deeds based upon what....?
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Believe in God.
Which God...?
The God of the Holy Bible....from whence this sura was copied from...?
Or..
The god of the Koran who wrapped itself in Biblical deity?
Good deeds based on instinct and God's system.
The "good deeds" described in the Arabic of your book of faith apply to "The Truth"...which is Jesus in the Book of Revelation...and "allah" in your book of faith.
Which one do you ascribe to pleasing...?